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After Action for Mammoth Match

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Dude, you are coming across like a total ass....

I would like to have gone, but I trust the opinions of those present and feel I got a pretty good read on how the match was set up...

Constructive criticism is the only way to grow.

I know as a CRO for our little match in Phx, that I have taken the input from the past couple years to make the course of fire I'm responsible for challenging and fun. I also set the stages with a deliberate dislike for "gaming". Its not easy, but stages can be set up to level the field so everyone has fun and a challenge.

A shooter winning a class after picking up a new boltgun and having not shot precision rifle comps is nothing new, top level 3 gun shooters are known to do it often. Then there's folks like FK out here on the west side that were olympic shooters and can just plain shoot, no gaming involved.

All in all it sounds like Mammoth was a success, and will hopefully evolve.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Guys I have already begun making a list of the things that are being said here and from emails I have gotten.

Will there be some changes made, Yes.

Will it still be a challenge, YES.

I agree with some of the things that are being said and some not.

There will be some changes made but the match will still be tough. Some people don't like shooting out of there comfort zone and I understand that.

One thing to think about also, there will be different shooting areas for the summer match. Some will be in the same area and some will be in different ones.

When the summer match details come out they will be explained.

If anyone has any input that they want me to read please send it to my email [email protected].

Hope to see everyone back at the summer match.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Sorry to digress but I would like some clarification about a couple of things.

I have heard "home field advantage" severals times now and here is my take on that, I have shot 1-1/2 Blue Ridge 3-gun matches (the second one got scrapped by a tornado) and 1 Pan Am Shotgun match at Rock Castle. there are over 2000 acres of land there. I can tell you that there was 1 location we shot from in this match that I had shot previously and we were not shooting at golf balls or tennis balls from behind a rock.
The beauty of Rock Castle is that there are no "square bays" It's all natural terrain so you never know where you will be shooting.

I live 2 hours from the range and did go there for the wind call class and "warm up day" I expect that more experienced shooters had some wind calling during some previous matches.
I may have had an advantage of driving to the match and carrying 4 extra layers of clothing with me (I felt like I was in a shooting jacket throughout the whole match) but i sure did not feel of any other advantages. Am I missing something here that gives me the "home field advantage" ?

"Gaming" that to me (as long as you are not breaking the rules) is a persons right as a competitor to engage a course of fire in the way he feels will be the most to his advantage for saving time and getting the most out of a stage. And I am sure I heard all of the R.O's answer any questions after the the stage briefing.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming!

Jeremy
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dude, you are coming across like a total ass.... </div></div>
Surely you are referring to an earlier poster in this thread and not benelli2.

Guys,
Let's not turn this thread into a pissing match. I think everyone agrees that this match has great potential and that Rockcastle is a great venue for a match of this type. All types of feedback are required in order for this match to grow and evolve into one of the best sniper matches in the country. I can assure you all that your comments are being read and taken into consideration both good and bad. Please keep them coming but remember we all want this match to grow and are on the same side.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Geez, its a good thing I can shoot faster than I type!!

Looks like I am not the only one with those toughts!
shocked.gif
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeremy Parker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry to digress but I would like some clarification about a couple of things.

I have heard "home field advantage" severals times now and here is my take on that, I have shot 1-1/2 Blue Ridge 3-gun matches (the second one got scrapped by a tornado) and 1 Pan Am Shotgun match at Rock Castle. there are over 2000 acres of land there. I can tell you that there was 1 location we shot from in this match that I had shot previously and we were not shooting at golf balls or tennis balls from behind a rock.
The beauty of Rock Castle is that there are no "square bays" It's all natural terrain so you never know where you will be shooting.

I live 2 hours from the range and did go there for the wind call class and "warm up day" I expect that more experienced shooters had some wind calling during some previous matches.
I may have had an advantage of driving to the match and carrying 4 extra layers of clothing with me (I felt like I was in a shooting jacket throughout the whole match) but i sure did not feel of any other advantages. Am I missing something here that gives me the "home field advantage" ?

Jeremy</div></div>

Not at all, you just sumed it up. I personally have home field advantage at about 5 other match locations its more about knowing what to expect. Knowing what to train for Etc.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

One thing I would like to add:
On the stages with multiple targets that are to be milled under time, when time is called, If you call for the first few shooters to come to the line at that time,you take away any opprotunity to work up the data on the target ranges. If that is the case, everyone should stop working on range cards at the same time.

On 2 Stages the first shooters were called to the line as soon as milling time was over, yet others continued to work solutions for all targets. This was a Big disadvantage to the guys in front of the line.

Just a thought and would had little outcome for me But others suffered.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Here's my AAR

Well first I'd say I was totally surprised to see the Match fill up to 100 + shooters as quick as it did which left me sitting on the waiting list waiting for drop outs, kinda surprising a first time match to get this much interest!

My next concern was how is he going to get 100 + shooters through 100 rds in a day and half.

All this I slowly figured out after the first stage,
(RED BARN)
Not gonna say a whole lot about this stage but after watching Dustin get only four hits on this stage I should have known this shit was harder than it looked. Let's just say that after successfully Milling a handful targets we changed our game plan and decided they weren't worth engaging and decided to spend more time to shoot the ones we hadn't milled, I was soon out of time and had spent 17 rds and had hit only one target.. Scratching my head.. 1 pts

Tobacco Barn- ok strategy in place, shoot a mag at biggest target then go get the short ones and get six easy points- Ok result was missed the big target with five rds, and then made the mistake of starting on the diamond and getting calls of every position around the clock and not hitting it and then getting mad and keep sending rounds at it instead going for the closer target... did i mil it wrong, did i get the size wrong, did they get the size wrong??? scratching head... 0 pts

Hide Stage- being nearly last in line a light fading most hits being two or three i wasn't excited at all and just wanted to get warm. so i run down there get a 1 st round hit on a target my partner confirmed for me previously and spend the next 15 rds trying to get some sort of call on the biggest targets out there, changing holds .25 mil up down and right and left, trying not fog up my scope breathing on it and just slowly loosing confidence miss after miss. scratching head... 1.2 pts


Night Stage- echo KJ above, by far a huge disappointment, being a little timid of all the yelling and darkness loaded rifles and very brief stage brief, I'm left not only not knowing what the targets are but if i can even find them. Well the position sucked i spent my time trying to find targets obscured by a hill and and then shooting into it, I should have moved into a sitting position for the first two or moved but for some reason i was more worried about a stage DQ which would have equaled my 0 pts anyways..

Day TWO

Golf balls-- not what i expected in such fine terrain but ok.
Don't touch your scope Drill- not a big deal. one of the easier stages if your rig is on you can at least get 3-4 hits easy enough.

Ridge-- Now were talking, this is what I dreamed the whole match would be, shooting across a canyon. 1 generous target with the others close by, good enough!! By far the best stage of the match whether i would have done good or not. This was a realistic set.

Hat's off to Joe and all the RO's who froze there butts off for us and put so much time into preparation of the match, I know how much time and effort goes into setting this up and i appreciate it!



My only two cents would be forget about having a complete milling Match, and second cent would be.. the ridge stage X 10 would be a great shoot!
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Hats off to Joe and all of the Range Officers, you guys put a lot of thought and work in to this match. Toygunner and I had a great time, this match was a lot harder than we thought it would be,which is just what we needed to push ourselves.He and I really learned a lot from this while having a good time. Thanks again.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

I noticed some equipment guys were using that I would like to add to my gear. Any help would be appreciated.
A few guys had a wrist type data book or range chart with multiple pages. And another thing I saw I liked was the magazine pouches for the 10 round AI mags. These has a shock cord holding the mags in not velcro or plastic clips.
Any names or links would be helpful.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Well, since leaving the match I have been traveling sitting on airplanes reflecting back on Mammoth.
First, hats off to Joe and all the RO's for putting all this together. I can only imagine the time and effort it takes to put a match of this size on. The crew at the Park City lodge/RockCastle shooting center were awesome.
I really had know idea what to expect. I was fortunate enough to shoot with several people I shoot with on a regular basis, because if I hadn't I would have been screwed on one stage.

The only stage that I had a problem with was the Ridge. It was actually my favorite stage too. The squad was allotted I think 3.5 minutes to mill. The RO's also said that after you were finished milling move and let others mill. There wasn't enough room for everyone in our squad to mill as a group. I can't speak for the other squad's. Who was to enforce that? Easy fix here, split the squad into 2 groups and mil. It would have added 3.5 minutes, so what.

All in all it was a fun match. I had the opportunity to shoot with my son in his first match and even as tough as this match was he is hooked. A big thanks goes out to Geordie, Wade, Jason, Rich, John, Tim, Patrick, Dustin and Todd.

I'm with Rich, the whole match doesn't have to be milling to make it a challenge the wind, target location and sizes still would make it a challenge even with a LRF.

Mick
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

the match was great and the castle rock shooting center was outstanding. as for the competition, it was challenging and pushed all shooters out of their comfort zones. shooting smaller targets with a restricted time line makes the competition difficult but is a better test of your skills then just shooting e types at distance.

i think most people are missing the point of why we shoot matches; it a way to vet our training and identify weak points in our training philosophy.

as for the match being unsafe... that's BS. i saw no stage that was dangerous.

as for the wonder shooter... Jeremy worked his ass off to train up this match with his spotter. they put alot of hours in and it payed off in the end.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: evilmonkey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the match was great and the castle rock shooting center was outstanding. as for the competition, it was challenging and pushed all shooters out of their comfort zones. shooting smaller targets with a restricted time line makes the competition difficult but is a better test of your skills then just shooting e types at distance.

i think most people are missing the point of why we shoot matches; it a way to vet our training and identify weak points in our training philosophy.

as for the match being unsafe... that's BS. i saw no stage that was dangerous.

as for the wonder shooter... Jeremy worked has ass off to train up this match with his spotter. they put alot of hours in and it payed off in the end. </div></div>

I agree with this. One major thing I learned from the comp was I need to learn to deal with mag/loading related failures. I almost burst out of the top of the Hide like the damn Hulk due to a failure on that stage.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Thank you Kevin and others for the honest report. Without honest reports and constructive criticism, how will things ever improve?

As a match director I am always interested on how other crews run their show, hoping I can learn a thing or two.

I was blown away when I found out there were 108 shooters, and only 1.5 days of time. Hats off to the MD and RO for getting that many shooters through in that amount of time.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Many thanks to Joe Harris and all the RSOs that made this match possible. It is clear that it takes a lot of hard work to make it happen.

Congratulations to all the top shooters in each class!

As for the AAR, I too concur with Kevin and Rich. This match has a ton of potential. Through shooter feedback, it should only get better when the bugs get worked out.

It was good to see old friends again, as well as meet new ones.

**On a different note, I would like to apologize to those that witnessed me throwing my rifle down after botching the Hide stage. Being extremely competitive as I am, I get angry at myself at times, but nothing like this. Before attending this match, and right before the holidays, I lost my job through corporate downsizing. Having already committed myself to the match several months prior, as well as needing the escape, I thought it would be a good opportunity to still attend. By shooting like shit, having a rough trip, being unemployed and stressed to the max, it happened to all come to a head after that stage. For those of you that know and have competed with me, you know I am not a poor sport or a man with little character. In no way do I want this to be a reflection on myself or my teammate. I have the combo platter that life has dealt me right now, and just wanted to get this off my chest. **

I look forward to seeing you guys again in future matches.

Jon
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

J.Boney I don't think anyone would think ill of you for having a bad stage and losing your temper.

The same thing happen to me on that stage....the guys could hear me cursing at the staging/holding area and I might have taught Joe a few new phrases in that course. My partner who has known me for over 10 years....wasn't sure whether I was going to toss him or my rifle out of the hide.

Shit happens.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.Boney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many thanks to Joe Harris and all the RSOs that made this match possible. It is clear that it takes a lot of hard work to make it happen.

Congratulations to all the top shooters in each class!

As for the AAR, I too concur with Kevin and Rich. This match has a ton of potential. Through shooter feedback, it should only get better when the bugs get worked out.

It was good to see old friends again, as well as meet new ones.

**On a different note, I would like to apologize to those that witnessed me throwing my rifle down after botching the Hide stage. Being extremely competitive as I am, I get angry at myself at times, but nothing like this. Before attending this match, and right before the holidays, I lost my job through corporate downsizing. Having already committed myself to the match several months prior, as well as needing the escape, I thought it would be a good opportunity to still attend. By shooting like shit, having a rough trip, being unemployed and stressed to the max, it happened to all come to a head after that stage. For those of you that know and have competed with me, you know I am not a poor sport or a man with little character. In no way do I want this to be a reflection on myself or my teammate. I have the combo platter that life has dealt me right now, and just wanted to get this off my chest. **

I look forward to seeing you guys again in future matches.

Jon
</div></div>

dont sweat it dude...shit happens. i still think youu should quit being a pussy and paint that scope
smile.gif
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

we're all human; your bound to get pissed off at some point...lol
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGUNN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.Boney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many thanks to Joe Harris and all the RSOs that made this match possible. It is clear that it takes a lot of hard work to make it happen.

Congratulations to all the top shooters in each class!

As for the AAR, I too concur with Kevin and Rich. This match has a ton of potential. Through shooter feedback, it should only get better when the bugs get worked out.

It was good to see old friends again, as well as meet new ones.

**On a different note, I would like to apologize to those that witnessed me throwing my rifle down after botching the Hide stage. Being extremely competitive as I am, I get angry at myself at times, but nothing like this. Before attending this match, and right before the holidays, I lost my job through corporate downsizing. Having already committed myself to the match several months prior, as well as needing the escape, I thought it would be a good opportunity to still attend. By shooting like shit, having a rough trip, being unemployed and stressed to the max, it happened to all come to a head after that stage. For those of you that know and have competed with me, you know I am not a poor sport or a man with little character. In no way do I want this to be a reflection on myself or my teammate. I have the combo platter that life has dealt me right now, and just wanted to get this off my chest. **

I look forward to seeing you guys again in future matches.

Jon
</div></div>

dont sweat it dude...shit happens. i still think youu should quit being a pussy and paint that scope
smile.gif
</div></div>

Is this Doug "DIPSHIT" Dearinger??
grin.gif
I'll paint it when you paint yours bro!
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you Kevin and others for the honest report. Without honest reports and constructive criticism, how will things ever improve?

As a match director I am always interested on how other crews run their show, hoping I can learn a thing or two.

I was blown away when I found out there were 108 shooters, and only 1.5 days of time. Hats off to the MD and RO for getting that many shooters through in that amount of time.


</div></div> Like Vu I was blown away when I saw there was over 100 Shooters. My self and Sean Terrell are about to host our first match and I can't tell you enough how this sort of thread helps us out. I hope no ones feelings are hurt by the criticism here because I really don't believe any body here intends any ill-will towards any body. I believe these guys all put a great deal of effort into putting on the best match they could. I know that I have never under taken any complex task that I did it the same way the second time. I learn and I move on. I don't know whom was responsible for making this match happen but somebody had a dream and they had the guts to make it happen. Hosting a match like this is really hanging your ass out and my hats off to them. I am about to host my first match in May and the attendee list is a who's who of tactical rifle shooting. When it is over I hope everyone that was there will take the time to critique it. I will try to keep it in mind that only people that care will take the time to give feed back. If I possibly can I will try to attend Mammoth next year.

PS: I can't say enough about how Vu has helped me with some wonderful advice. He steered me clear of some major mistakes that I was about to make. Starting with how to run our match registration. Thanks Vu you are a true gentleman
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJDrake</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The RO's shot the match previously and were counted in the match...I'm not really sure how I feel about this. It seems there could be a conflict of interest...the guy who has a score already in the books should not be able to take points away from another shooter. Plus you will always have the comments on ideal shooting conditions, who set the targets out there, etc...not saying that the RO's and staff are not of pristine character...it just seems like it's a conversation that always happens when RO's shoot matches and are counted in your match. Give them their own prizes after they shoot and be done with it. Let the paying competitor's shoot for what's left over.
--KJ </div></div>

KJ,

Being one of the the RO's for the match I can tell you we (all the RO's) shot the match the same way everyone else did. We did not design nor did we help set the targets for any of the stages. We also got the same stage briefing you did and also had the same holding area as all the squads with the same down time.

As for the prize table, the RO's had to pay the same price as everyone else if they wanted to be apart of the prize table and picked their prize the same time as everyone else. We did not have a closed door prize give away as you implied above. For the record I finished 8th in the Military Class, I did NOT pay for the prize table so I got nothing but cold feet and 8th place. It sounds like people respect you on here but if you don't know what your talking about please get your facts straight before posting.

Are you really saying that RO's should not be able to shoot in a match they are ROing? What other matches have you shot in that didn't let RO's shoot the day before? I guess all the RO's would have driven 6 hours just to RO. That would have been fun for all of us.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.Boney</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGUNN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.Boney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many thanks to Joe Harris and all the RSOs that made this match possible. It is clear that it takes a lot of hard work to make it happen.

Congratulations to all the top shooters in each class!

As for the AAR, I too concur with Kevin and Rich. This match has a ton of potential. Through shooter feedback, it should only get better when the bugs get worked out.

It was good to see old friends again, as well as meet new ones.

**On a different note, I would like to apologize to those that witnessed me throwing my rifle down after botching the Hide stage. Being extremely competitive as I am, I get angry at myself at times, but nothing like this. Before attending this match, and right before the holidays, I lost my job through corporate downsizing. Having already committed myself to the match several months prior, as well as needing the escape, I thought it would be a good opportunity to still attend. By shooting like shit, having a rough trip, being unemployed and stressed to the max, it happened to all come to a head after that stage. For those of you that know and have competed with me, you know I am not a poor sport or a man with little character. In no way do I want this to be a reflection on myself or my teammate. I have the combo platter that life has dealt me right now, and just wanted to get this off my chest. **

I look forward to seeing you guys again in future matches.

Jon
</div></div>

dont sweat it dude...shit happens. i still think youu should quit being a pussy and paint that scope
smile.gif
</div></div>

Is this Doug "DIPSHIT" Dearinger??
grin.gif
I'll paint it when you paint yours bro! </div></div>

you musta been sleeping for the match numbnutz....mine is painted!
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: msting22</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you really saying that RO's should not be able to shoot in a match they are ROing? What other matches have you shot in that didn't let RO's shoot the day before? I guess all the RO's would have driven 6 hours just to RO. That would have been fun for all of us.</div></div>

Other matches I have been to either didn't have ROs shoot(NorCal, Rifles Only, Tac Pro, Idaho Sniper Challenge, Storm Mountain, Reade Range etc) or if they did they did it on a different day and it was between the ROs(AZ TPRC) or the scores weren't added into the mix(Black Hat). Their scores weren't rolled into the competitors. I have never shot a match where the ROs shot before the competitors and the scores were added into the match scores.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bfshooting</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scott V

we ran mag holders for our 10rnd AI mags. The mag holders are from Tactical Tailor. The mag holders are 7.62 mag holder for SR25 mags, and the pouches will attach to molly gear. We just hooked the pouches to our belts, and they worked great. If I shoot another long range match though I would put a pull tab on the mags because the mag sets to low in the mag holder.
If you look around on Tactical Tailors you will also find the forearm bands for your rifles dop on the web site too.
Here it the link.
http://www.tacticaltailor.com/762308singlemagpouch.aspx </div></div>

At least one shooter there was running the TacTailor pouches that we modified to allow them to fit the AI mags MUCH better.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Other matches I have been to either didn't have ROs shoot(NorCal, Rifles Only, Tac Pro, Idaho Sniper Challenge, Storm Mountain, Reade Range etc) or if they did they did it on a different day and it was between the ROs(AZ TPRC) or the scores weren't added into the mix(Black Hat). Their scores weren't rolled into the competitors. I have never shot a match where the ROs shot before the competitors and the scores were added into the match scores. </div></div>

I have to agree RO's should not compete against the other competitors. You could have a "RO" class and let them compete for their own prize(s). Putting them in direct competition with the guys they are scoring is a conflict of interest any way you cut it. I am not implying that there was any dishonesty in this match, I just don't see it as a good idea.

Again, I didn't shoot this match and I don't have any experience running a match. However anyone can see how it would be a bad thing if for some reason you ended up having a bunch of "shit hot" RO's and they cleaned the top spots as a match. No reason to setup an opportunity for a situation like that to occur.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

USPSA, IPSC, IDPA, those RO's usually shoot before the competitiors and their scores count just the same. I dont see where it is necessary to have a separate prize table. Sometimes the separate prize table for the RO's is in addition to the normal prize table.

Most match directiors that I know, know their RO's and trust the integrity of the RO's prior to the match. For someone to say that the RO's should not be a part of the prize table that kinda says to me that they are questioning the integrity of the RO's.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

The problem would be if the RO's help set up the unknown distance targets and stages. This is because the RO's would be aware of where the targets where, what the distances were, and would have time in advance to form strategies in there mind on the best way to shoot the stage. That would give the RO's a huge advantage.... Even if they were of the highest integrity, and so they really tried to shoot it as though they didn't know all that information in advance, the fact is they do.....

If the RO's didn't have anything to do with setting up for the match. Lets say they showed up on Friday, everythings set up, they shoot the match and then Saturday RO the match, well that would be different.

However, I think at most tactical matches the RO's are the same guys that are helping set up the match....
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Those sports also have full walk throughs where everyone knows everything about the stages.

Sniper matches where UKDs are a big part need to be set up by someone and also shooting on different days will produce different results due to many variables.

I never meant to imply any wrong doing or integrity problems with the RO's at that match but it seems being their first sniper style match they weren't aware how it is done by most all of the other sniper venues. Just trying to make that point. Constructive criticism. Not slamming.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

I guess you did not read all of my post. The RO's had nothing to do with the stage design or the set up or setting of targets. We shot it the same way everyone else did.

As for the top finishers, they were not RO's.

I have shot lots of Matches all over the southeast and the RO's always get to shoot the match and get to be apart of the prize table.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those sports also have full walk throughs where everyone knows everything about the stages.

Sniper matches where UKDs are a big part need to be set up by someone and also shooting on different days will produce different results due to many variables.

I never meant to imply any wrong doing or integrity problems with the RO's at that match but it seems being their first sniper style match they weren't aware how it is done by most all of the other sniper venues. Just trying to make that point. Constructive criticism. Not slamming. </div></div>
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">USPSA, IPSC, IDPA, those RO's usually shoot before the competitiors and their scores count just the same. </div></div>

Apples to Oranges.

Different targets, rules and types of shooting.

In those disciplines an eyeball on high magnification optics are not the final say on a hit or miss.

When you shoot a "tactical match" you are playing in someone elses sandbox. You play by their rules. If a Director wants to pile his RO's in with the other shooters, he can do that. If he wants to shoot them in their own squad....he gets to do that.

A smart Match Director does whatever he can to minimize problems. These matches are not backyard, Sunday turkey shoots. Shooters are coming from all over the country and the world. They don't know the RO's and usually have never met them before.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

I did read your post and understood what you posted. I was posting to explain to you how most all sniper matches work. I have shot more than one or two mtches. Who did set up all the targets? Who ran the ROs through them and explained the stages of fire to them and kept them under time and was it doen the same for them as for the competitors? Were the targets freshly painted? Was it warmer and not snowing? Get my point? Those are the things people look at and ask and it's best not to have to worry about any of them.

Again this isn't going after anyone's integrity but the appearance of impropriety is what matters. That's the points we are all trying to get across. Doesn't matter if there was anything done wrong or not or if the Pope himself was an RO but when every other match doesn't run RO's or doesn't count them in with competitors then that is what people are used to and see reasons for doing it that way. It's not 3 gun where everyone gets to walk through and see everything and everyone scores the targets.

Being the first one they have run maybe they and you should take this for what it is, constructive crticism, and not get your panties in a bunch about it. Just trying to be nice and help and make the next one better as all matches try to do.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Simple solution. Don't have the RO's shoot the match. I think most will agree with that {unless your an RO).


Mick
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: msting22</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KJDrake</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The RO's shot the match previously and were counted in the match...I'm not really sure how I feel about this. It seems there could be a conflict of interest...the guy who has a score already in the books should not be able to take points away from another shooter. Plus you will always have the comments on ideal shooting conditions, who set the targets out there, etc...not saying that the RO's and staff are not of pristine character...it just seems like it's a conversation that always happens when RO's shoot matches and are counted in your match. Give them their own prizes after they shoot and be done with it. Let the paying competitor's shoot for what's left over.
--KJ </div></div>

KJ,

Being one of the the RO's for the match I can tell you we (all the RO's) shot the match the same way everyone else did. We did not design nor did we help set the targets for any of the stages. We also got the same stage briefing you did and also had the same holding area as all the squads with the same down time.

As for the prize table, the RO's had to pay the same price as everyone else if they wanted to be apart of the prize table and picked their prize the same time as everyone else. We did not have a closed door prize give away as you implied above. For the record I finished 8th in the Military Class, I did NOT pay for the prize table so I got nothing but cold feet and 8th place. It sounds like people respect you on here but if you don't know what your talking about please get your facts straight before posting.

Are you really saying that RO's should not be able to shoot in a match they are ROing? What other matches have you shot in that didn't let RO's shoot the day before? I guess all the RO's would have driven 6 hours just to RO. That would have been fun for all of us. </div></div>


Sorry, but I gotta raise the BS flag on this one. NO RO or Range crew should shoot the match for standing and or prizes, I don't give a shit if they paid double.

You ask of a match where the range crew does not shoot at all for standing? For one Nor Cal Tactical Bolt Rifle Challenge, we are in our 5th year, and no one from our range crew gets to even see the entire COF. They test particular stages for bugs, but that is it. Since our event is split into two major part, no one RO has both parts even. I am the only one the sees 100% of what the COF will be.

What we do for our range crew (all 30 of them) is give them a stab at the prize table once everyone has gone through. I think it's a nice thing to do when they bust ass for 4 days putting on the show.

Hell, my own club members didnt even get range time on our new club mover system it's first year out.

Another match where the range crew does not shoot for standing or prizes. Arizona TPRC...Scott and his guys test shoot the day before to ensure the range is set correctly and COFs are fine tuned. They do not shoot for standings or prizes.

IMO, having the range crew and RO shoot the event for standing takes away from its integrity.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

You either have integrity or you don't, doesn't matter when you shoot the match. Some real big money 3-gun matches sure let there RO's shoot for score and qualify for TV shootoffs. I don't want to speak for Joe but I am willing to bet if you think there are some integrity issues here, he would just as soon you stayed home.

 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

In theory, I agree with ROs not shooting. I will say that in practice, I honestly don't believe it had any effect on this match. These guys were top of the line in integrity. If anything, conditions on seperate days played more of a role, that and down time. We sat and waited for over two hours before shooting our last stage. It put me out of the gme mentally. The weather has potential to be way different too.

But, the opportunity does exist for an RO that has a personal stake in how well the other shooters do to affect things.

I don't run a match, but if I were to, I wouldn't want my ROs competing. Just me though.

Back to ideas for Joe or future directors, the biggest improvement I could see is numbering the targets. There was a lot of confusion between shooter and RO as to what target was being engaged and a lot of time lost. If a shooter can see a big number was visable, it would be faster and more distinct.

"Target number 4"
Vs.
"The rectangular plate that is to the left of the big cedar tree on the left side of the road..."

There were a few stages that could be cut into seperate stages too, ie, upper tobacco barn and lower tabacco barn, same with the red barn.

I would prefer to have individual miling times instead of having an entire squad crawling on top of each other for ten minutes trying to see all the targets. Every stage had limited space for everyone to see targets. Exact target sized would have been nice too (8 inches point to point or 8 inches along the edge).

I personally think it would have been both challenging and fun if there were only one or two UKD stages and either known distance or LRFs on others. It would have run quicker.

This realy was a fun match, but, if I am being honest, I dought I will choose it over one a few months away. It would take more shooting and less down time to make it realy good, that and more hits (but that is mostly me
laugh.gif
)
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

ROs / MDs should do what they do because they want the disciplen to grow... not to shoot in their own match.

RO / MDs / Vols shoot the COFs to test out the match before hand... find any bugs or issues and do a quick fix on the intel they have gathered.

As far as other type matches go ( 3-gun, IDPA, IPSC ) because they choose to shoot in a match with COFs they designed doesn't make it ok in my opinion.

You put on matches for other to shoot.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummerdawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You either have integrity or you don't, doesn't matter when you shoot the match. Some real big money 3-gun matches sure let there RO's shoot for score and qualify for TV shootoffs. I don't want to speak for Joe but I am willing to bet if you think there are some integrity issues here, he would just as soon you stayed home.

</div></div>

When we talk about 3 gun matches in this thread, then your point can be valid. You can't compare a discipline where conditions don't mean jack because you shoot mainly inside 300 yards to a match where you have UKD and shoot at long distances. In doing so it shows that you really don't understand the concept of this sport/discipline.

I was not attacking any particular person's intergrity, but the match format/scoring system itself. If you took it as a personal attack, maybe you might ask yourself why you took it that way.

Was everyone made aware that ROs were going to shoot the match for record prior to everyone signing up?

Vu
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

I don't take it personal I wasn't at the match nor do I know anyone who RO'd the match. My point is it doesn't matter if its 3-gun, precision rifle match or marbles. You either have integrity or not. And if you think you are shooting a match where the officials and or scoring system is without integrity vote with your checkbook and stay home.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

LoneWolfUSMC

I was just trying to help guy out with a question. Where do you get the mag pouches moded then. How can I fix mine?
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bfshooting</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scott V

we ran mag holders for our 10rnd AI mags. The mag holders are from Tactical Tailor. The mag holders are 7.62 mag holder for SR25 mags, and the pouches will attach to molly gear. We just hooked the pouches to our belts, and they worked great. If I shoot another long range match though I would put a pull tab on the mags because the mag sets to low in the mag holder.
If you look around on Tactical Tailors you will also find the forearm bands for your rifles dop on the web site too.
Here it the link.
http://www.tacticaltailor.com/762308singlemagpouch.aspx </div></div>

At least one shooter there was running the TacTailor pouches that we modified to allow them to fit the AI mags MUCH better. </div></div>

Me and my partner were running chest racks with pouches for 10rd 308 AI mags and 5rd 300 win mag AI mags, but they were made by ATS tactical as a prototype batch for later production.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bfshooting</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LoneWolfUSMC

I was just trying to help guy out with a question. Where do you get the mag pouches moded then. How can I fix mine? </div></div>

I'm working with ATS tactical to start a line of sniper products such as pouches for AI mags in a few different configurations. but they should be offering them soon (next few months). i'm talking one of the owners into sponsoring some up coming matches and maybe a group buy for pouches for the hide.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

I shot the Mammoth Challange. I have no problem with the RO's shooting early. The match director stated before hand, no one but him would know the course of fire and I have no reason to doubt that. I enjoyed the match as much or more as those where I have had 80% plus hits.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

I have no idea how people keep saying that competitiors had 80% plus hits? I dont know about the other guys, but I shot about 100 rounds and hit 21 targets which landed me 4th in the open... That is nowhere near 80% hits.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

I have no idea how people keep saying that competitiors had 80% plus hits? I dont know about the other guys, but I shot about 100 rounds and hit 21 targets which landed me 4th in the open... That is nowhere near 80% hits.
 
Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SevenBat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no idea how people keep saying that competitiors had 80% plus hits? I dont know about the other guys, but I shot about 100 rounds and hit 21 targets which landed me 4th in the open... That is nowhere near 80% hits. </div></div>
I stated that several shooters were over 50% on available targets. I haven't heard anyone say 80% though. I shot 71 rounds and scored 19.2. That's 37% on targets and 27% on shots.
 
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