After Action for Mammoth Match

[WTW]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

I think what rooster was saying that he enjoyed this match as (with low percentage of hits) he did other matches where he had 80% hits. This was my second match. The first match I went to was also very difficult with a low percentage of hits so I don't know what it is like to have a high percentage of hits at a match. It doesn't bother me that I hit 13 targets I was happy with that performance. As long as I can see continuous improvement in my shooting I am a happy camper.

 

[rooster26]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

I did not say I hit 80% at Mammoth. Far from it. I enjoyed the match as much those where my hit percentage was higher.

 

[bryan45]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

I have no dog in this fight, but I would be interested to know how many of those that do not feel ROs should be able to shoot for prizes have themselves RO'ed at matches they couldn't go to the table.

It's hard enough getting good help to volunteer. Take away any chances of winning something and it's that much worse.

If you guys are ROs at matches, thanks for working. If you've never been an RO, think twice about criticizing.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bryan45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no dog in this fight, but I would be interested to know how many of those that do not feel ROs should be able to shoot for prizes have themselves RO'ed at matches they couldn't go to the table.

It's hard enough getting good help to volunteer. Take away any chances of winning something and it's that much worse.

If you guys are ROs at matches, thanks for working. If you've never been an RO, think twice about criticizing.

</div></div>

I think you misunderstand what people are saying,

Giving an RO a prize off the table is one thing...

RO's competing for prizes is another...

We give ROs something off our prize tables all the time. They aren't competing with competitors for prizes. They are given it as a way of thanking them for their help.

Nobody in this who posted that I know has ever had an issue, thanking someone for their work, or help... the idea being conveyed as far as I see is the competition aspect of it.

 

[bryan45]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Lowlight, at this type match is it usually random draw for RO prizes then?

I have RO'd some major 3 gun matches, and have won some nice prizes, even while ROing. I see the difference between these type matches and 3g- since 3g is typically not subjective scoring.

Just trying to see how a match such as this can draw good volunteers without some kind of "payback".

 

[Graham]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

RO's should, and often do, get rewarded for their efforts in this discipline. That's one thing that sets this sport apart from the early days of IPSC and, in my opinion, gives match directors more leeway in hiring the talented as well as the willing.

Personally, I've been trying to bribe the RO's at R.O for over a year now and my scores keep getting worse, not better. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

No, it is not random draw for prizes... our prize tables are over $100k, we have a lot of stuff... But competitors pick from the table in order of their placement in the match.

As you read their placing they get to go to the table and choose.

Precision Rifle is not 3 gun, that is where the issue is, this is not the same. If people wanted it to be like 3 gun they would shoot 3 gun. They do things a lot different, like squadding and rotations for stages because they have more people. They also use competitors as ROs and in precision rifle it is not done that way. Sure some places do some things similar, but overall it is not the same. Especially in an all UKD situation, that leads to an atmosphere ripe for compromise, especially if the venue has sponsored shooters enrolled. No one is saying it is, but they are saying it looks bad. If SH had a "team" that shot my matches and they came in early for a train up, and then placed in the top 3, people would talk whether they are right or wrong wouldn't matter, you can't blame them especially when most do so poorly... then you have guys come on, new members trying to say, "its not hard look what a brand new shooter did", never mentioned, sponsored by the venue, train, etc... see what they are saying.

From the outside looking in, it takes on a negative light all its own, warranted or not, it just does.

 

[poison123]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Just curious LL....why shoot a pistol course of fire at a precision rifle match?

 

[bryan45]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Lowlight, I don't think I worded my question clearly.

How are RO's rewarded for their help at the typical LR match?

 

[Lindy]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Try shooting better. That always works - not that we don't appreciate your efforts...

 

[gugubica]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious LL....why shoot a pistol course of fire at a precision rifle match? </div></div>

because it is fun, and not all that out of line for a sniper type match

 

[gugubica]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bryan45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight, I don't think I worded my question clearly.

How are RO's rewarded for their help at the typical LR match?

</div></div>

If someone has a problem getting ROs, offer to pay them. Seriously, I would not mind a bit if I had to pay a little higher entry fee to have top quality ROs, I'm fine with that. In fact, I would be happy for MDs to make money as long as I have the ability to shoot a fun match more often.

 

[poison123]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious LL....why shoot a pistol course of fire at a precision rifle match? </div></div>

because it is fun, and not all that out of line for a sniper type match
</div></div>

*shrugs* I'd rather have another course of fire for distance...but thats just me.

 

[Lindy]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious LL....why shoot a pistol course of fire at a precision rifle match?</div></div>

I'm not LL - but I've been at every Rifles Only match since the fall of 2003, at first as a shooter, and now as an RO.

Pistols are sidearms frequently if not invariably carried by military and law enforcement shooters, and it's considered appropriate to test skills with a pistol at matches oriented toward tactical shooting.

The NRA and other organizations run rifle matches. We run tactical rifle matches, which often include pistols, carbines, and even machine guns - we supply the machine guns. Rifles Only matches often include shooting a carbine from a helicopter in flight. Why? Well, it's a real-world tactical shooting skill - and it's fun.

Those who don't want to have fun can go elsewhere.

 

[poison123]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious LL....why shoot a pistol course of fire at a precision rifle match?</div></div>

I'm not LL - but I've been at every Rifles Only match since the fall of 2003, at first as a shooter, and now as an RO.

Pistols are sidearms frequently if not invariably carried by military and law enforcement shooters, and it's considered appropriate to test skills with a pistol at matches oriented toward tactical shooting.

The NRA and other organizations run rifle matches. We run tactical rifle matches, which often include pistols, carbines, and even machine guns - we supply the machine guns. Rifles Only matches often include shooting a carbine from a helicopter in flight. Why? Well, it's a real-world tactical shooting skill - and it's fun.

Those who don't want to have fun can go elsewhere.
</div></div>

I'm all about having fun, and it was just a question. Hell going out to shoot the cup is high on my list just from getting to shoot out of a helicopter.

 

[gugubica]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious LL....why shoot a pistol course of fire at a precision rifle match? </div></div>

because it is fun, and not all that out of line for a sniper type match
</div></div>

*shrugs* I'd rather have another course of fire for distance...but thats just me. </div></div>

there are plenty of LR stages at the R.O. matches, as well as short range, small stuff, big stuff, steel, paper...everything and lots of it. I never thought it was not enough shooting. The combo stages (pistol/rifle) are actually my favorites...most fun.

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just curious LL....why shoot a pistol course of fire at a precision rifle match? </div></div>

because it is fun, and not all that out of line for a sniper type match
</div></div>

*shrugs* I'd rather have another course of fire for distance...but thats just me. </div></div>

there are plenty of LR stages at the R.O. matches, as well as short range, small stuff, big stuff, steel, paper...everything and lots of it. I never thought it was not enough shooting. The combo stages (pistol/rifle) are actually my favorites...most fun. </div></div>

Does the outcome of the pistol shooting factor into the outcome of the scores? If the pistol portions are just to take up downtime, no big deal, but if the factor into the scores, it doesnt seem right to me. Some people can shoot the hell out of a rifle but couldnt hit the borad side of a barn standing in the barn with a pistol.

If its a rifle match then shooting rifles should determine the outcome, not pistols.

 

[Lindy]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the pistol portions are just to take up downtime, no big deal, but if the factor into the scores, it doesnt seem right to me. Some people can shoot the hell out of a rifle but couldnt hit the borad side of a barn standing in the barn with a pistol.

If its a rifle match then shooting rifles should determine the outcome, not pistols.</div></div>

As I already mentioned, Rifles Only matches include not only rifles, but pistols, carbines, and sometimes machine guns. It all counts for score.

You're entitled to your opinion about that - but enough shooters find matches at Rifles Only sufficiently interesting that 100 people attempted to register for the most recent one <span style="font-style: italic">in the first minute in which registration was open.</span> And, in fact, 2 two-day matches were held back-to-back to satisfy the demand.

I interpret that to mean that Rifles Only is doing something right.

Can't please everyone, I guess.

 

[bfshooting]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

1

 

[bfshooting]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

1

 

[Lindy]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

http://www.riflesonly.com/

And yes, you'll be shooting long distances.

 

[bfshooting]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

1

 

[gugubica]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bfshooting</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't think you or most of the people that have posted on this thread have a clue what the duties and responsibility of a true sniper is in the field.
</div></div>

you would be very mistaken to think that.

If you want to really have a comp that truely mimics what "true" snipers do, make everyone lay in position and stare at targets for two days...then, if they are lucky, they get one shot at hitting a target...see how many people sign up for that one.

There needs to be a line somewhere between real and fun (and safe).

For the record, noone is bitching, we are trying to help. We appreciate what Joe and the ROs did. We just want to offer ideas that will keep people coming to this match.

 

[bfshooting]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

1

 

[Hellbender]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match


I couldn't imagine ANY situation I would be employing a sniper rifle that I wouldn't have both a primary and backup handgun.

Since I would be carrying said handguns, I feel proving that I could use them would be an essential skill set to show at a match.

 

[bfshooting]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

1

 

[Lucks]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

I have no dog in this fight. I didn't get to shoot the match...I would have loved to have tried my skills against what must have been a tough COF.

But I'm not seeing your bitch...I don't think most of the guys on this thread are giving anything but a little constructive critisism, and their honest opinions on what will make the match more enjoyable and run smoother.

To me,
Numbering targets to help communication between the RO's and the shooters is a smart suggestion.

Not having the RO's(who may or may not have inside information and/or be calling hits/misses for others) shoot and compete against the rest of the field, is a smart suggestion.

 

[bmarc69]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bfshooting</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't think you or most of the people that have posted on this thread have a clue what the duties and responsibility of a true sniper is in the field.
</div></div>

you would be very mistaken to think that.

If you want to really have a comp that truely mimics what "true" snipers do, make everyone lay in position and stare at targets for two days...then, if they are lucky, they get one shot at hitting a target...see how many people sign up for that one.

There needs to be a line somewhere between real and fun (and safe).

For the record, noone is bitching, we are trying to help. We appreciate what Joe and the ROs did. We just want to offer ideas that will keep people coming to this match. </div></div>Exactly. Let's keep it constructive. This thread was supposed to be for AARs with likes and dislikes for Mammoth. Not the bashing of a shooter who worked his butt off and reaped the benefits. Not for bashing any match to promote your own or your buddies. Only to improve what can be one of the best matches in the country. I can't tell you guys what to do. All I'm saying is, if you shot the match then post your likes and dislikes in the AAR. If y'all want to argue, which helps no one, start a different thread. Thanks to all who have posted about the match. THAT is what is needed.

 

[Albertp3]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

+1 to bfshooting's comments on you guys running down a new competitior. He shot a 308 in a tough environment, won military divison, AND finished 2nd overall againist the "regular" guys shooting in open division. He bought his first bolt action 308 six weeks before the match.

On another note, if you think rifle in 3gun is so easy because shooting is under 400 yards try shooting 12 200 yard targets from four positions off hand in the pouring rain againist the clock, or run about 50 yards shooting pistol targets at 25 yards, then shotgun targets reloading it a couple of times, then climb a tower and shoot multiple 300 yard target with a rifle all under the clock, by the way all the stages timeout at 180 seconds.

3gun has evolved and become significanly harder to compete in and be at the top. MAYBE, Joe Harris the match director is trying to raise the bar for sniper matches!!! Instead of complaining so much about how hard the match was, or whether the RO's should get to compete maybe the discussion should take a "how do i get better" angle, or even how can other matches rasie the bar to be more competitive like Joe's match.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bfshooting</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
lowlight

you and others on this thread have a funny way of growing your sport.

First a shooter new the sport works his but off does great at his first match and you guys run him down.

Second you guys on here do nothing but complain about the match from the RO's, not being able to see built impact on the ground, you guys want the targets numbered, and you need to be entertained in between stages.

I believe the title of this match was sniper challenge, and I don't think you or most of the people that have posted on this thread have a clue what the duties and responsibility of a true sniper is in the field.

So I think you need to decide if the people on this thread want to shoot a precision match or a sniper match. Because I have new for a lot of people on here the Mamoth sniper chalange was just that a great SNIPER CHALANGE, and I can't wait for the summer match when the shooter spotter teams are going to have to work twice as hard talking to each other the get on target. I also think most of the stages the shooter should have to mil targets on the clock while shooting.

</div></div>

If growing this sport means including you, and your attitude I think we can do without it.

No clue what is it like, Rifles Only has been doing LR Tactical Matches since the 1990s, part of Sniper's Paradise, then starting around 2003 for Sniper's Hide. Our prize table is over $100k, we sell out the competition in the 1st minute of registration, and you don't see threads like this about people of all types bitching.

No clue, meaning me, graduating Sniper School, no clue.. Snipers don't carry handguns, snipers don't shoot carbines, no clue... where did you earn your clue ?

Old Shooters, New Shooters, Military shooter, LE Shooters, all get something out of it. We have them all at our matches, National and International shooters.

As stated we include, Long Range, to 1000 yards, but we have also shot to 1250, we have shot as close as 11ft with a bolt gun, we include handgun stages, carbine from a helicopter, and everything in the middle. We limit UKD stages because they take too long for what we do... but we include targets of various sizes, and ranges, we don't do it where everything is an even number.

Movers, with Rifle, and handgun, events like mentioned, shot from a rifle, up, sling your rifle, move and dragged an 80lbs bag, while engaging targets with your handgun ,to point where you drop it and then move to a final rifle stage.

Run & Guns, we did a 300 yard live fire O Course that took the competitors 10 minutes each to complete...

Please, don't tell us we don't know what you are doing, or have done, we do it, twice a year, every years since 2005...

I own this place, I also host a match and do training, however I allow free and open advertisement of both training and competitions... maybe that needs to change because you don't get it and are really pissing me off with all your buddies coming on to defend the unique nature of what YOU Only know how to do... I have an idea, maybe everyone can promote their matches here but you, because until now, we have never had an issue like this so maybe I need to find the source of this issue and remove it... permanently.

Maybe you need to get a clue or you can think you are in competition with me and I can show how that works.

 

[poison123]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Just to clear something up LL, this BF guy has no connection to the Mammoth Comp, the MD, or the ROs as I'm aware.

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

bfshooting...

You are going to have some angry people on your hands if you bring any more heat on those involved with this match.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to clear something up LL, this BF guy has no connection to the Mammoth Comp, the MD, or the ROs as I'm aware.</div></div>

Bullshit !

I will boot everyone associated to that competition... he came on here and conversed with them and for them... tell me I have no clue.

Like I havent' done the 44 hour field match, included scored stalking, land nav, UKD where I only shot 11 rifle shots in 44 hours... in fact within the first 24 hours half the field dropped out.

As well Jacob has participated in the Sniper Matches in Finland that was all military, land nav, Sniper shots... continuous, no hotels, living in the field for days moving from point to point for time.

Don't tell me he isn't talking for Mammoth, he is all over here talking for them. He was a competitor wasn't here, one of the Sponsored Team guys.

 

[Albertp3]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to clear something up LL, this BF guy has no connection to the Mammoth Comp, the MD, or the ROs as I'm aware.</div></div>

Bullshit !

I will boot everyone associated to that competition... he came on here and conversed with them and for them... tell me I have no clue.

Like I havent' done the 44 hour field match, included scored stalking, land nav, UKD where I only shot 11 rifle shots in 44 hours... in fact within the first 24 hours half the field dropped out.

As well Jacob has participated in the Sniper Matches in Finland that was all military, land nav, Sniper shots... continuous, no hotels, living in the field for days moving from point to point for time.

Don't tell me he isn't talking for Mammoth, he is all over here talking for them. He was a competitor wasn't here, one of the Sponsored Team guys.

</div></div>

Well, I guess that pretty much puts the cap on the discussion on this thread!

 

[Graham]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Samurai Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 to bfshooting's comments on you guys running down a new competitior. He shot a 308 in a tough environment, won military divison, AND finished 2nd overall againist the "regular" guys shooting in open division. He bought his first bolt action 308 six weeks before the match... MAYBE, Joe Harris the match director is trying to raise the bar for sniper matches!!! Instead of complaining so much about how hard the match was, or whether the RO's should get to compete maybe the discussion should take a "how do i get better" angle, or even how can other matches rasie the bar to be more competitive like Joe's match.</div></div>Except that the consensus of all the criticisms, by experienced people who know, was the opposite: That the match <span style="text-decoration: underline">wasn't</span> competitive; that it was dependent on luck and gaming based on course-knowledge, which doesn't 'make' any match, 'sniper' or otherwise. Let's face it: I could recruit a homeless man with no experience and have him design an haute cuisine culinary competition. I guarantee there would be a winner. But if I used that event to bolster my reputation for cooking prowess I would be laughed out of the CIA (no pun intended).

 

[bmarc69]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

I surrender!!!!!! If anyone has a list of likes and dislikes from shooting the Mammoth match you can send it to me in a PM or e-mail. I will make sure the MD gets it. I'm done with this thread but constructive criticism is welcome. To the OP, I appreciate your true thoughts and apologize that your thread got derailed.

 

[1b375]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Damn guys, I haven't read this thread for two days. Been working at my range here in Georgia.

I appreciate all the comments good or bad about the match. I have read every one of them. Alot of the things are being taken into consideration to make it a better match.

Please let's not get all worked up about who likes what and who can do what.

I desigend the match to be tough and it will conitnue to be tough. Some of the suggestions on here are good ones. You will probably see some of them at the summer match.

Lowlight, I assure you I don't know who the BF guy is on here. I could know him if I knew who he was. I but I assure you that he was not one of my RO's because I have asked everyone of them. None of us are from Texas.

Guys there is an open invitation for anyone that wants to help RO the summer match.

Thanks and let's have some civil discussions about the match.

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

This is where I make my dramatic entrance into the thread.

 

[Shady_Jay]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Now, an even more dramatic egress.

 

[Hasgun Willtravel]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTRP-CKA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is where I make my dramatic entrance into the thread. </div></div>

bout fucki* time.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

wow, in and out in 26 seconds. The chicks must really be digging your mojo

 

[Lowlight]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1b375</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn guys, I haven't read this thread for two days. Been working at my range here in Georgia.

I appreciate all the comments good or bad about the match. I have read every one of them. Alot of the things are being taken into consideration to make it a better match.

Please let's not get all worked up about who likes what and who can do what.

I desigend the match to be tough and it will conitnue to be tough. Some of the suggestions on here are good ones. You will probably see some of them at the summer match.

Lowlight, I assure you I don't know who the BF guy is on here. I could know him if I knew who he was. I but I assure you that he was not one of my RO's because I have asked everyone of them. None of us are from Texas.

Guys there is an open invitation for anyone that wants to help RO the summer match.

Thanks and let's have some civil discussions about the match.
</div></div>

Whatever, I suppose all this defensiveness and timing of these new members is a coincidence ? The fact they are defending you, is just luck of the draw.

All this could have easily been avoided, but you all know better than anyone else.

 

[JasonB]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Like I havent' done the 44 hour field match, included scored stalking, land nav, UKD where I only shot 11 rifle shots in 44 hours... in fact within the first 24 hours half the field dropped out.

As well Jacob has participated in the Sniper Matches in Finland that was all military, land nav, Sniper shots... continuous, no hotels, living in the field for days moving from point to point for time.

</div></div>

Now that sounds like a good time !

 

[Chiller]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Just wandering through tonight.

Frank, the COF was different from what I have shot at some of the western matches. I think all of these comps work to improve us as shooters. I am by no means the yardstick and do not "know" everything with regards to matches. I look forward to the opportunity to attend RO for their match, to AZ for their match, to NorCal for their match, and to Mammoth for the return of this match.

The RO's that I talked with are above reproach. Joe laid out the rules and while different I really have no issue with them. To be honest with a few exceptions most of us shooters are net negative for attending these matches. I do not do this to pay the bills. I do this to enjoy it, to learn, to meet and make new friends, and to have fun. An AAR is appropriate to help the MD understand the event form the competitor (customers) standpoint. Where this thread had devolved into a less than beneficial discussion does not move us as a community forward. We need to air or thoughts and still be respectful of the other members and competitors. My $.02 and worth what you paid for them.

 

[Chiller]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

As Later would say I do wear my blue beret and think we need to be more constructive to move our collective game forward.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Sure Hugh,

Kiss a little more ass why don't you... ambassador Rob you're not.

Immediately after Kevin posted this the attacks on him started in defense of this... not a word he wrote was in malice, and was to do EXACTLY what people say AARs are for, to help improve the match. But instead, IMMEDIATELY the attacks started, the heavy defense started, the claim, that the competitors had sour grapes because it was out of their "comfort zone" , whatever that means. As if ASC isnt' an 100% UKD competition, that no one understands. Forgive me I didnt' realize Mammoth invented the UKD.

During the match, posts were being made... known shooters, with well rounded experience levels, but again, they were all wrong, because none of us have a "clue" what a sniper match means.

Excuse me, but fuck this, attack people trying to help.

Let me explain something, people spend money, a lot of money, not just to show up, days off, travel expenses, hotel, but to get ready... to only to hit 30% of available targets -- where the average TOP Shooter used 4 rounds per target to gain the few points they did. People don't spend money to learn that kind of lesson. They spend the money to enjoy themselves and clearly it fell short, overall. Sure the Mammoth fan base loved it, but is that enough ? No Hugh, you can go and say you learned something, shit, my worse day of shooting I've learned something, but is that a lesson in the positive or a lesson in the negative ? Both are equally valuable, but are both worth PAYING for ?

No, constructive criticism was forwarded here on the premise of hoping a great venue will put on a better match next time, instead these guys come on here and talk shit about who has clues and what motivations from the very people who PAID them. I'm sorry but I had it up to here with this level of bullshit.

71 shots for 19 targets hit I read on here ... please, and that was a good score. Give me break Hugh and Kiss their ass to them, dont patronize me.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As Later would say I do wear my blue beret and think we need to be more constructive to move our collective game forward. </div></div>

Hugh, sugar coating stuff doesn't do shit for MDs. When I ask for an AAR, I expect 100% honesty. Don't tell me "great job" when there were clearly issues.

I actually find the attacks on Kevin funny, since none of the items/issue brought up have been addressed by the ROs or MD.

i.e. I asked if EVERYONE was informed that ROs were going to shoot the day prior for score and prizes. Was this made known prior to registration?

All the references to "this is how they do it in 3 gun" are invalid as this is not a 3 gun match.

By the way, a "hard" COF doesn't equal a low hit ratio; a poorly planned COF can accomplish the exact same thing.

 

[Rob01]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sure Hugh,

Kiss a little more ass why don't you... ambassador Rob you're not.

Immediately after Kevin posted this the attacks on him started in defense of this... not a word he wrote was in malice, and was to do EXACTLY what people say AARs are for, to help improve the match. But instead, IMMEDIATELY the attacks started, the heavy defense started, the claim, that the competitors had sour grapes because it was out of their "comfort zone" , whatever that means. As if ASC isnt' an 100% UKD competition, that no one understands. Forgive me I didnt' realize Mammoth invented the UKD.

During the match, posts were being made... known shooters, with well rounded experience levels, but again, they were all wrong, because none of us have a "clue" what a sniper match means.

Excuse me, but fuck this, attack people trying to help.

Let me explain something, people spend money, a lot of money, not just to show up, days off, travel expenses, hotel, but to get ready... to only to hit 30% of available targets -- where the average TOP Shooter used 4 rounds per target to gain the few points they did. People don't spend money to learn that kind of lesson. They spend the money to enjoy themselves and clearly it fell short, overall. Sure the Mammoth fan base loved it, but is that enough ? No Hugh, you can go and say you learned something, shit, my worse day of shooting I've learned something, but is that a lesson in the positive or a lesson in the negative ? Both are equally valuable, but are both worth PAYING for ?

No, constructive criticism was forwarded here on the premise of hoping a great venue will put on a better match next time, instead these guys come on here and talk shit about who has clues and what motivations from the very people who PAID them. I'm sorry but I had it up to here with this level of bullshit.

71 shots for 19 targets hit I read on here ... please, and that was a good score. Give me break Hugh and Kiss their ass to them, dont patronize me. </div></div>

+1 Couldn't have said it better. Thanks to the guys who came here acting like know it all assholes. You just saved me some money going to Mammoth in the future. I will spend my money elsewhere.

 

[Chiller]

Re: After Action for Mammoth Match

Frank, Vu, Rob, et al

I am not trying to sugar coat anything. I have a great amount of respect for all of the above including Kevin and Tony. I go to these matches to learn. I go to RO to learn. This match was that, a learning experience. I have not actually ever been a sniper and at no time have I ever professed to be one and I am fully aware that several people who have been involved in this thread are or have carried that MOS. I am by no means trying to get into a battle of wits as it relates to this. Was it a tough match, yes. Are there things that need to be improved, yes. Am I casting dispersions on Kevin, absolutely no. Will I return, if given the opportunity, yes. Am I kissing Joe or any other MD’s ass, not in my opinion. I just find it unfortunate that the thread appeared to spin down and out of control.
I hope to see all of you this week and would be more than happy to talk with you face to face on any item.