AI AE Covert
- Thread starter MKII
- Start date
Re: AI AE Covert
Check with Mile High Shooting Accy's, I believe they have them instock complete at this time.
Check with Mile High Shooting Accy's, I believe they have them instock complete at this time.
Re: AI AE Covert
I love mine. I can send you a pic of a 5 shot group that I shot after fully disassembling the rifle at Staceys armorer course. It's accuracy is incredible for a shawty!!
I love mine. I can send you a pic of a 5 shot group that I shot after fully disassembling the rifle at Staceys armorer course. It's accuracy is incredible for a shawty!!
Re: AI AE Covert
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chillin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love mine. I can send you a pic of a 5 shot group that I shot after fully disassembling the rifle at Staceys armorer course. It's accuracy is incredible for a shawty!! </div></div>
You could just post a link here to the pics
That way the rest of us can drool too!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chillin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love mine. I can send you a pic of a 5 shot group that I shot after fully disassembling the rifle at Staceys armorer course. It's accuracy is incredible for a shawty!! </div></div>
You could just post a link here to the pics
That way the rest of us can drool too!
Re: AI AE Covert
I made the mistake of dropping by Milehigh shooting yesterday for a TAB gear rear bag and ended up walking out with a Covert (they were out of the square rear bags). Went to the range early evening to see what it would do and I must say the gun exceeded my expectations. After bore sighting I shot various 3-shot groups of different ammo at 100 yards. I know that some (including me) will state that 3 shots does not a group make, regardless the first shots downrange were impressive:
LC '79 M118 (not so special) Ball - 173gr shot .685" - this is a really good sign
FGMM - 168 shot .1" - .5" (first two in the same hole shooter yanked one out to .5"
Black Hills 175 moly .1 - .38" (again first shots in the same hole third out to .38")
155 gr scenars - match load shot 7/8" ... the gun may like heavier bullets.
I made the mistake of dropping by Milehigh shooting yesterday for a TAB gear rear bag and ended up walking out with a Covert (they were out of the square rear bags). Went to the range early evening to see what it would do and I must say the gun exceeded my expectations. After bore sighting I shot various 3-shot groups of different ammo at 100 yards. I know that some (including me) will state that 3 shots does not a group make, regardless the first shots downrange were impressive:
LC '79 M118 (not so special) Ball - 173gr shot .685" - this is a really good sign
FGMM - 168 shot .1" - .5" (first two in the same hole shooter yanked one out to .5"
Black Hills 175 moly .1 - .38" (again first shots in the same hole third out to .38")
155 gr scenars - match load shot 7/8" ... the gun may like heavier bullets.
Re: AI AE Covert
I have a covert as well. Its all set up just waiting on the NFA to approve my suppressor that matches it.
They shoot awesome for that 16" barrel!
I have a covert as well. Its all set up just waiting on the NFA to approve my suppressor that matches it.
They shoot awesome for that 16" barrel!
Re: AI AE Covert
Pricing is approximately $4K for the rifle and roughly $1,400 for the suppressor plus $200 tax stamp plus tax ...
remau308,
You should call MileHighShooting ... they have them in stock:
http://www.milehighshooting.com/
Mine is shooting 1/4 - 1/2 MOA with Federal GMM and some match loads ... I am really impressed.
Pricing is approximately $4K for the rifle and roughly $1,400 for the suppressor plus $200 tax stamp plus tax ...
remau308,
You should call MileHighShooting ... they have them in stock:
http://www.milehighshooting.com/
Mine is shooting 1/4 - 1/2 MOA with Federal GMM and some match loads ... I am really impressed.
Re: AI AE Covert
.300 AT&T
Get some FGMM 175's and try them. I think you will be very happy with the results. Mine is the exact same as yours on the chrono with the 168's. That's funny you dropped by for a rear bag and left with a Covert! Thats a great day at the gun store!! Randy and Diann at Mile High are awesome folks to deal with for sure.
I'll work on getting the pic of the group posted here in a bit.
Here is the 5 shot group immediately after disassembling and reassembling the rifle including barrel removal and scope removal. We did not touch the scope after putting it all back together. Stacey was standing behind us making sure we didn't touch anything. The rifle can do even better than this due to this shooters lack of experience and shooting with a class full of police snipers made me a bit nervous.
.300 AT&T
Get some FGMM 175's and try them. I think you will be very happy with the results. Mine is the exact same as yours on the chrono with the 168's. That's funny you dropped by for a rear bag and left with a Covert! Thats a great day at the gun store!! Randy and Diann at Mile High are awesome folks to deal with for sure.
I'll work on getting the pic of the group posted here in a bit.
Here is the 5 shot group immediately after disassembling and reassembling the rifle including barrel removal and scope removal. We did not touch the scope after putting it all back together. Stacey was standing behind us making sure we didn't touch anything. The rifle can do even better than this due to this shooters lack of experience and shooting with a class full of police snipers made me a bit nervous.
Re: AI AE Covert
Originally a PM to Chiller:
The only longer range work that I have done so far was yesterday. I arbitrarily came up about .6 mils and shot at a 6" gong at 200 w/168 and it went "gong". I Will try some more scientific experiments at 200 today (max at my local range).
The gun is shooting sub 1/2 MOA at 100 w/ 168's and 175's. In my experience, if a gun (.308) will shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 it will shoot 1/2 MOA at 300, 600, 1000 ... the difference at longer distances is the wind, mirage and that shooters confidence drops dramatically - any/all user errors are pronounced. Being superstitious, most shooters will then spend huge amounts of time and ammo trying to prove it is the gun's/load's fault as to why they can't get as good groups beyond 1-200 yards. I ruined my 1st Palma gun with a re chamber because it would not do as well at 1,000 as 200. I was convinced that I needed to modify it to shoot the 155's VLDs to fix this problem even though it would shoot 1/2" groups with 168 SMK's all day long at 200 and stay supersonic at 1,000. I have found that the less you worry about this the better you shoot ...
I was going to take the Covert to Whittington center this weekend to see how far out it will reach (my guess 800+ @ raton NM) but there is a fire and I-25 is closed. If they open up the freeway I may be able to share some longer range data with you. I Will keep you posted.
Originally a PM to Chiller:
The only longer range work that I have done so far was yesterday. I arbitrarily came up about .6 mils and shot at a 6" gong at 200 w/168 and it went "gong". I Will try some more scientific experiments at 200 today (max at my local range).
The gun is shooting sub 1/2 MOA at 100 w/ 168's and 175's. In my experience, if a gun (.308) will shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 it will shoot 1/2 MOA at 300, 600, 1000 ... the difference at longer distances is the wind, mirage and that shooters confidence drops dramatically - any/all user errors are pronounced. Being superstitious, most shooters will then spend huge amounts of time and ammo trying to prove it is the gun's/load's fault as to why they can't get as good groups beyond 1-200 yards. I ruined my 1st Palma gun with a re chamber because it would not do as well at 1,000 as 200. I was convinced that I needed to modify it to shoot the 155's VLDs to fix this problem even though it would shoot 1/2" groups with 168 SMK's all day long at 200 and stay supersonic at 1,000. I have found that the less you worry about this the better you shoot ...
I was going to take the Covert to Whittington center this weekend to see how far out it will reach (my guess 800+ @ raton NM) but there is a fire and I-25 is closed. If they open up the freeway I may be able to share some longer range data with you. I Will keep you posted.
Re: AI AE Covert
Chillin, I think you and I were in the same AI class at MHSA. I ended up getting a Covert and then bought the TAB gear. Good stuff man love this rifle. Randy and Diann are the best I won't buy AI stuff anywhere else but MHSA.
Chillin, I think you and I were in the same AI class at MHSA. I ended up getting a Covert and then bought the TAB gear. Good stuff man love this rifle. Randy and Diann are the best I won't buy AI stuff anywhere else but MHSA.
Re: AI AE Covert
BLG LLC,
I chrono'ed my standard 175gr SMK load (43.5gr Varget) in my AI covert sans suppressor and I recorded an average muzzle velocity of 2,408 fps. According to my oehler ballistics program at that velocity the bullets will still be supersonic at 1,000 yards 5,000 msl where I shoot.
FWIW, The program also predicts that this combo will still be supersonic at 1,000 yards (1,150 fps) on a hot muggy day at see level.
Note that Lake City Match (173gr FMJ) chrono'ed at 2,443 fps.
BLG LLC,
I chrono'ed my standard 175gr SMK load (43.5gr Varget) in my AI covert sans suppressor and I recorded an average muzzle velocity of 2,408 fps. According to my oehler ballistics program at that velocity the bullets will still be supersonic at 1,000 yards 5,000 msl where I shoot.
FWIW, The program also predicts that this combo will still be supersonic at 1,000 yards (1,150 fps) on a hot muggy day at see level.
Note that Lake City Match (173gr FMJ) chrono'ed at 2,443 fps.
Re: AI AE Covert
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a covert as well. Its all set up just waiting on the NFA to approve my suppressor that matches it.
They shoot awesome for that 16" barrel! </div></div>
I wish you were my neighbor. You have all of the fun toys it seems. I'd love to get some trigger time behind one of those rifles.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a covert as well. Its all set up just waiting on the NFA to approve my suppressor that matches it.
They shoot awesome for that 16" barrel! </div></div>
I wish you were my neighbor. You have all of the fun toys it seems. I'd love to get some trigger time behind one of those rifles.
Re: AI AE Covert
Big LLC,
I have been working on a good sub sonic load using the 208 AMAX and the 225gr Hornady Match bullets. Stacy has some good data to get you started. Other than that full-power match loads (175gr) should be good to 1,000 ...
Big LLC,
I have been working on a good sub sonic load using the 208 AMAX and the 225gr Hornady Match bullets. Stacy has some good data to get you started. Other than that full-power match loads (175gr) should be good to 1,000 ...
Re: AI AE Covert
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: swage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a covert as well. Its all set up just waiting on the NFA to approve my suppressor that matches it.
They shoot awesome for that 16" barrel! </div></div>
I wish you were my neighbor. You have all of the fun toys it seems. I'd love to get some trigger time behind one of those rifles. </div></div>
Come on down
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: swage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a covert as well. Its all set up just waiting on the NFA to approve my suppressor that matches it.
They shoot awesome for that 16" barrel! </div></div>
I wish you were my neighbor. You have all of the fun toys it seems. I'd love to get some trigger time behind one of those rifles. </div></div>
Come on down
Re: AI AE Covert
The #'s .300 reports are basically right on line with many others. Example:
1. when you drop from a 24" bbl down to 20", average velocity loss runs about 10 fps per inch = 40 fps loss overall (average).
2. when you drop from a 24" bbl down to 16", average velocity loss runs about 15 fps per inch = 120 fps loss overall (average)
Obviously the "Max Range" question will vary widely due to the application, external conditions and ammo. I personally run and recommend the 16" - 20" guns for 600m range, beyond that the 24" would be a better solution.
With the ammunitions, I have run the Federal GM168gr & 175gr, Hornady TAP and Match, Fiocchi and several others which demonstrated the like results as Chillin posted, fantastic shooters and all around fun weapon to work with. On the sub-sonic rounds, from the Hornady and Sierra 170gr FP to 220gr RN class. I personally have found the 170gr FP or the 180gr RN was my everyday bullet for fun and demo work in the ranges of 0 -200yds. The Hornady 208gr AMAX was my favorite for long range fun and demo work in the range of 200yd and beyond. So with that I could have fun with bullets which I could find easily and not run into shortages. The 170gr FP is as well my choice of bullets for any hunting applications, they work extremely well on close range performance! We did shoot some of the 208gr AMAX in CO last year for Prairie dogs, and was clearly capable of 450yds then, and lots of fun.
The #'s .300 reports are basically right on line with many others. Example:
1. when you drop from a 24" bbl down to 20", average velocity loss runs about 10 fps per inch = 40 fps loss overall (average).
2. when you drop from a 24" bbl down to 16", average velocity loss runs about 15 fps per inch = 120 fps loss overall (average)
Obviously the "Max Range" question will vary widely due to the application, external conditions and ammo. I personally run and recommend the 16" - 20" guns for 600m range, beyond that the 24" would be a better solution.
With the ammunitions, I have run the Federal GM168gr & 175gr, Hornady TAP and Match, Fiocchi and several others which demonstrated the like results as Chillin posted, fantastic shooters and all around fun weapon to work with. On the sub-sonic rounds, from the Hornady and Sierra 170gr FP to 220gr RN class. I personally have found the 170gr FP or the 180gr RN was my everyday bullet for fun and demo work in the ranges of 0 -200yds. The Hornady 208gr AMAX was my favorite for long range fun and demo work in the range of 200yd and beyond. So with that I could have fun with bullets which I could find easily and not run into shortages. The 170gr FP is as well my choice of bullets for any hunting applications, they work extremely well on close range performance! We did shoot some of the 208gr AMAX in CO last year for Prairie dogs, and was clearly capable of 450yds then, and lots of fun.
Re: AI AE Covert
Stacey, thanks for the info. I have to say after the AI Armorer class at MHSA I am sold on the AI brand. I got and AI AE Covert with the S&B 4x16 DT, AI Bipod and 18 moa scope mount. Going to shoot it for the first time tomorrow. I'll post some pic's tomorrow. Thanks guys I'm kinda to new to the rifle game but I'm glad to have great info for guys that know their business.
Stacey, thanks for the info. I have to say after the AI Armorer class at MHSA I am sold on the AI brand. I got and AI AE Covert with the S&B 4x16 DT, AI Bipod and 18 moa scope mount. Going to shoot it for the first time tomorrow. I'll post some pic's tomorrow. Thanks guys I'm kinda to new to the rifle game but I'm glad to have great info for guys that know their business.
Re: AI AE Covert
Welcome and I am glad to hear you enjoyed the course and it appears you clearly understand the abilities of the AI systems. You will enjoy it, sounds like a fantastic build and enjoy the range, she will be a shooter!
Welcome and I am glad to hear you enjoyed the course and it appears you clearly understand the abilities of the AI systems. You will enjoy it, sounds like a fantastic build and enjoy the range, she will be a shooter!
Re: AI AE Covert
had to joint the club! my covert showed today and my 3x12 S&B for it will be here friday! Cant wait to try it!
had to joint the club! my covert showed today and my 3x12 S&B for it will be here friday! Cant wait to try it!
Re: AI AE Covert
We will post covert pic' tomorrow and we will be going to the range next week hopefully to do some video .
Thanks
Randy
We will post covert pic' tomorrow and we will be going to the range next week hopefully to do some video .
Thanks
Randy
Re: AI AE Covert
The OD Green is the AE MKII Covert folder with Spike. The Black is the AW Covert folder with Pic rail installed.
The OD Green is the AE MKII Covert folder with Spike. The Black is the AW Covert folder with Pic rail installed.
Re: AI AE Covert
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stacey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The #'s .300 reports are basically right on line with many others. Example:
1. when you drop from a 24" bbl down to 20", average velocity loss runs about 10 fps per inch = 40 fps loss overall (average).
2. when you drop from a 24" bbl down to 16", average velocity loss runs about 15 fps per inch = 120 fps loss overall (average)
Obviously the "Max Range" question will vary widely due to the application, external conditions and ammo. I personally run and recommend the 16" - 20" guns for 600m range, beyond that the 24" would be a better solution.
With the ammunitions, I have run the Federal GM168gr & 175gr, Hornady TAP and Match, Fiocchi and several others which demonstrated the like results as Chillin posted, fantastic shooters and all around fun weapon to work with. On the sub-sonic rounds, from the Hornady and Sierra 170gr FP to 220gr RN class. I personally have found the 170gr FP or the 180gr RN was my everyday bullet for fun and demo work in the ranges of 0 -200yds. The Hornady 208gr AMAX was my favorite for long range fun and demo work in the range of 200yd and beyond. So with that I could have fun with bullets which I could find easily and not run into shortages. The 170gr FP is as well my choice of bullets for any hunting applications, they work extremely well on close range performance! We did shoot some of the 208gr AMAX in CO last year for Prairie dogs, and was clearly capable of 450yds then, and lots of fun.</div></div>
Sweet intel right there boys! Thanks for the workup info Stacey!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stacey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The #'s .300 reports are basically right on line with many others. Example:
1. when you drop from a 24" bbl down to 20", average velocity loss runs about 10 fps per inch = 40 fps loss overall (average).
2. when you drop from a 24" bbl down to 16", average velocity loss runs about 15 fps per inch = 120 fps loss overall (average)
Obviously the "Max Range" question will vary widely due to the application, external conditions and ammo. I personally run and recommend the 16" - 20" guns for 600m range, beyond that the 24" would be a better solution.
With the ammunitions, I have run the Federal GM168gr & 175gr, Hornady TAP and Match, Fiocchi and several others which demonstrated the like results as Chillin posted, fantastic shooters and all around fun weapon to work with. On the sub-sonic rounds, from the Hornady and Sierra 170gr FP to 220gr RN class. I personally have found the 170gr FP or the 180gr RN was my everyday bullet for fun and demo work in the ranges of 0 -200yds. The Hornady 208gr AMAX was my favorite for long range fun and demo work in the range of 200yd and beyond. So with that I could have fun with bullets which I could find easily and not run into shortages. The 170gr FP is as well my choice of bullets for any hunting applications, they work extremely well on close range performance! We did shoot some of the 208gr AMAX in CO last year for Prairie dogs, and was clearly capable of 450yds then, and lots of fun.</div></div>
Sweet intel right there boys! Thanks for the workup info Stacey!
Re: AI AE Covert
Very welcome, and I will be looking at trying some other bullets again soon, if and when that provides good details, I will post them up as well.
Very welcome, and I will be looking at trying some other bullets again soon, if and when that provides good details, I will post them up as well.
Re: AI AE Covert
When developing rounds for the AI AE MKII Covert what jump space have you discovered your rifle liked?
Has it been necessary to change the distance from the ogive to the lands when moving to heaver and subsonic rounds?
The wealth of information here convinced me to that this was an ideal rifle for the shorter ranges available to me. So I bought one too. : ) Please keep the good information coming.
I am a s-l-o-w low producer of precision ammo. That is very low out put. Accept my thanks in advance for help dialing in the sweet loads for the rile and getting me off the bench and to the range on Saturdays.
I'll be using Varget and Trail Boss initially pushing 168 gr A-Max and 180 gr RN out of Lapua brass with CCI BR2 primers.
When developing rounds for the AI AE MKII Covert what jump space have you discovered your rifle liked?
Has it been necessary to change the distance from the ogive to the lands when moving to heaver and subsonic rounds?
The wealth of information here convinced me to that this was an ideal rifle for the shorter ranges available to me. So I bought one too. : ) Please keep the good information coming.
I am a s-l-o-w low producer of precision ammo. That is very low out put. Accept my thanks in advance for help dialing in the sweet loads for the rile and getting me off the bench and to the range on Saturdays.
I'll be using Varget and Trail Boss initially pushing 168 gr A-Max and 180 gr RN out of Lapua brass with CCI BR2 primers.
Re: AI AE Covert
Well another good question and here goes. On the AE MKI/AW Coverts, since I am running the same barrels and the ID of these magazines allow, I have pushed the 208's out to 2.95" + and worked down from there, currently at 2.910" and they are loving life. However, on the AE MKII, the magazine currently limits you to 2.880" range, which in all honesty has been fine for the 170FP, 180RN, 200gr SUB-SONIC class bullets as well. With that all being said, in my experience the 170gr FP bullets, you need to push them out with a .010" range, or they did tend to display less potential in the accuracy test for sure. The heavier bullets such as the 208's have not displayed the same by any means and that is what I started with a cartridge overall length of 2.975" and have been working it down since. These continually for 200+ yds are top load in accuracy. I normally recommend you setup a basic starting load which is established on desired velocity, zero @ 50yds, setup x3-5 different loads consisting of x5rds each with COL variables (same powder charge of course), and shoot. Now with the printed results and obviously data to distinguish #1 thru #5, I have quickly been able to cut the field down normally to 1 or 2 test loads at this point even @ 50yds. Then I move it out to 100yds and narrow the field from there again with the final loads again.
Basically once you get a basic powder charge, you should taylor the final product to your weapon, document everything and enjoy the fruits of your labor. Have fun and see what your weapon desires most.
Well another good question and here goes. On the AE MKI/AW Coverts, since I am running the same barrels and the ID of these magazines allow, I have pushed the 208's out to 2.95" + and worked down from there, currently at 2.910" and they are loving life. However, on the AE MKII, the magazine currently limits you to 2.880" range, which in all honesty has been fine for the 170FP, 180RN, 200gr SUB-SONIC class bullets as well. With that all being said, in my experience the 170gr FP bullets, you need to push them out with a .010" range, or they did tend to display less potential in the accuracy test for sure. The heavier bullets such as the 208's have not displayed the same by any means and that is what I started with a cartridge overall length of 2.975" and have been working it down since. These continually for 200+ yds are top load in accuracy. I normally recommend you setup a basic starting load which is established on desired velocity, zero @ 50yds, setup x3-5 different loads consisting of x5rds each with COL variables (same powder charge of course), and shoot. Now with the printed results and obviously data to distinguish #1 thru #5, I have quickly been able to cut the field down normally to 1 or 2 test loads at this point even @ 50yds. Then I move it out to 100yds and narrow the field from there again with the final loads again.
Basically once you get a basic powder charge, you should taylor the final product to your weapon, document everything and enjoy the fruits of your labor. Have fun and see what your weapon desires most.
Re: AI AE Covert
Thanks Stacey
The information is very useful. Thank you for sharing it.
Truthfully, it was disappointing to learn the skill and precision of tailoring a cartridge to the rifle is in one dimension limited to what will fit the mag.
Don't worry I'm getting over it : )
Do you think a VLD bullet is the most accurate round given the handicap of the magazine? I note the bullets that were your favorites FP and RN are designs that share in common a shape that places the ogive closer to the lands for a given OAL.
When shooting longer range with the 208 AMAX is the COL you load one that would fit in the mag? That will make it at least 3 hundreds further back then 2.910" you like. Or is this only a long range favorite when feed singly into the rifle?
The rifle has a well documented reputation as an excellent shooter. How far does a bullet have to go to get to the start of that 16" bbl? Just what is the jump space with factory FGMM 175's anyway?
Lot of questions here. Sorry for coming at you so fast. Maybe these measurements are more voodoo then shooting science. An excuse for a miss that can be blamed on a part other then the nut holding the trigger.
Maybe at some distance BC becomes more important to accuracy for a given velocity then that little space at the start of the bullet's journey.
What works - works!
Like you say, keep good records and test till you find what's best.
Thanks Stacey
The information is very useful. Thank you for sharing it.
Truthfully, it was disappointing to learn the skill and precision of tailoring a cartridge to the rifle is in one dimension limited to what will fit the mag.
Don't worry I'm getting over it : )
Do you think a VLD bullet is the most accurate round given the handicap of the magazine? I note the bullets that were your favorites FP and RN are designs that share in common a shape that places the ogive closer to the lands for a given OAL.
When shooting longer range with the 208 AMAX is the COL you load one that would fit in the mag? That will make it at least 3 hundreds further back then 2.910" you like. Or is this only a long range favorite when feed singly into the rifle?
The rifle has a well documented reputation as an excellent shooter. How far does a bullet have to go to get to the start of that 16" bbl? Just what is the jump space with factory FGMM 175's anyway?
Lot of questions here. Sorry for coming at you so fast. Maybe these measurements are more voodoo then shooting science. An excuse for a miss that can be blamed on a part other then the nut holding the trigger.
Maybe at some distance BC becomes more important to accuracy for a given velocity then that little space at the start of the bullet's journey.
What works - works!
Like you say, keep good records and test till you find what's best.
Re: AI AE Covert
You are welcome and hope it helps.
I understand and agree, but there are two solutions of course. One to work with the limitations of the magazine or course which will work and do great. Or you could remove the internal magazine plate which will allow you the extra ID for the longer loads. Not to hard to accomplish but it will void your warranty on the magazine of course.
On bullets, it is very interesting to see what works and does not, sometimes the numbers do not match the program and even the manufacture can be amazed that particular bullet performed @ subsonic levels and longer range. I used the FP and RN bullets for a couple of reasons. One they were designed for lower velocity expansion and pressures, less expensive and available. Most of the time honestly 200yds and under is the area subsonic work is done, except for a few which is now tending to grow of course. I have tried FMJ and some others loaded backwards and experienced better results than a 168/175gr Match King for example.
On the COL, remember I stated that I was loading those in my AE MKI and AW, they have a longer ID magazine. On the AE MKII we are loading 170/180gr's to the magazine, working on the 208's at the end of the month so should have some more info later. Yes you are very correct in the #'s are #'s sometimes, simply load to what you have to work with and tailor fit from there. Each rifle/barrel setup has its sweet spots and vary little by little from there. For example, Match Grade ammo, what do you shoot is the ?, answer: Brand A with .25moa groups. So what does shooter 2 do, buys Brand A shoots a .8moa group, cusses the weapon for being a POS, blames the Brand A ammo for poor QA, then the optics and so on. Then shooter 2 tries Brand B and C ammo one day, notices a big difference in accuracy and is amazed. Not a phenomenon it does occur. So you as you stated, "What works - works!" and that is what to shoot for, starting off with the basics you know and have to work with and building from there. Have a good weekend.
You are welcome and hope it helps.
I understand and agree, but there are two solutions of course. One to work with the limitations of the magazine or course which will work and do great. Or you could remove the internal magazine plate which will allow you the extra ID for the longer loads. Not to hard to accomplish but it will void your warranty on the magazine of course.
On bullets, it is very interesting to see what works and does not, sometimes the numbers do not match the program and even the manufacture can be amazed that particular bullet performed @ subsonic levels and longer range. I used the FP and RN bullets for a couple of reasons. One they were designed for lower velocity expansion and pressures, less expensive and available. Most of the time honestly 200yds and under is the area subsonic work is done, except for a few which is now tending to grow of course. I have tried FMJ and some others loaded backwards and experienced better results than a 168/175gr Match King for example.
On the COL, remember I stated that I was loading those in my AE MKI and AW, they have a longer ID magazine. On the AE MKII we are loading 170/180gr's to the magazine, working on the 208's at the end of the month so should have some more info later. Yes you are very correct in the #'s are #'s sometimes, simply load to what you have to work with and tailor fit from there. Each rifle/barrel setup has its sweet spots and vary little by little from there. For example, Match Grade ammo, what do you shoot is the ?, answer: Brand A with .25moa groups. So what does shooter 2 do, buys Brand A shoots a .8moa group, cusses the weapon for being a POS, blames the Brand A ammo for poor QA, then the optics and so on. Then shooter 2 tries Brand B and C ammo one day, notices a big difference in accuracy and is amazed. Not a phenomenon it does occur. So you as you stated, "What works - works!" and that is what to shoot for, starting off with the basics you know and have to work with and building from there. Have a good weekend.
Re: AI AE Covert
For the love of God people, quit posting these threads. I'm about to sell one of my nuts to buy one. Hands down, in my opinion it's the slickest looking rifle out!!!
For the love of God people, quit posting these threads. I'm about to sell one of my nuts to buy one. Hands down, in my opinion it's the slickest looking rifle out!!!
Re: AI AE Covert
Folks,
I decided it was time to clean the gun after 295 rounds downrange. On the way to work I took a detour to the range to do a cold clean bore test to see how the AI/AE Covert would behave. The following is a five-shot group of 168gr FGMM fired at 100 yards this morning. The gun is capable of 1/4 MOA and as you will all note a cold clean bore did not cause the POI to shift much. (I apologize for the rotated image, I rotated it on photobucket but for some reason it did not display as I had hoped):
Give the folks at MileHigh shooting a call ... they may still have some in stock but I'm not sure that they are trading body parts for the guns.
Good shooting ...
Folks,
I decided it was time to clean the gun after 295 rounds downrange. On the way to work I took a detour to the range to do a cold clean bore test to see how the AI/AE Covert would behave. The following is a five-shot group of 168gr FGMM fired at 100 yards this morning. The gun is capable of 1/4 MOA and as you will all note a cold clean bore did not cause the POI to shift much. (I apologize for the rotated image, I rotated it on photobucket but for some reason it did not display as I had hoped):
Give the folks at MileHigh shooting a call ... they may still have some in stock but I'm not sure that they are trading body parts for the guns.
Good shooting ...
Re: AI AE Covert
Smchop,
I published some of the first shots in my AI/AE Covert here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...313#Post2632313
I have since put 300 rounds down range (5,280 ft msl) and this is what I have found:
1.) The folks a MileHigh Shooting are a great bunch and outstanding to work with (too bad I live three miles away - its expensive).
2.) The gun does the following with factory ammo:
168gr FGMM - 2,470fps gives .3 - .6 MOA accuracy
175gr FCMM - 2,385fps gives .2 - .5 MOA accuracy
173gr M118 - 2,443fps gives .6 - .8 MOA accuracy (did the chrono read too high?)
3.) The gun likes 175's better than 168's and these better than 155's although you are kind of splitting hairs between the 168 and 175's.
4.) Stacy has some great data to get you started on sub-sonic load development but I found that his loads were "hot" launching bullets at 1,085+ fps (just super sonic here at 5,280msl) causing the bullets to go transonic and wobble at 100 yards.
With respect sub sonic loads:
i. Its more challenging than full power loads and perhaps more fun.
ii. Hornady 225gr Match or 220gr SMK bullets do not quite stabilize at sub-sonic speeds.
iii. Due to the shorter length, the gun does stabilize 220gr hornady round nose and they shoot really well (1" or less at 100 yards).
iv. Trailboss works MUCH better than unique
v. CC 350 magnum pistol primers work MUCH better than Fed 210m primers
vi. 208gr AMAX look like they will work really well (more testing needed)
5. All of my 308 Match loads have shot under 1/2 MOA in the gun except my 155gr loads which shoot .7 - 1 MOA.
Summary: The gun feeds flawlessly, has a nice balance (w/the can attached), and shoots everything well (except 220-225gr sub-sonic match bullets)
have fun ... good shooting ...
Smchop,
I published some of the first shots in my AI/AE Covert here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...313#Post2632313
I have since put 300 rounds down range (5,280 ft msl) and this is what I have found:
1.) The folks a MileHigh Shooting are a great bunch and outstanding to work with (too bad I live three miles away - its expensive).
2.) The gun does the following with factory ammo:
168gr FGMM - 2,470fps gives .3 - .6 MOA accuracy
175gr FCMM - 2,385fps gives .2 - .5 MOA accuracy
173gr M118 - 2,443fps gives .6 - .8 MOA accuracy (did the chrono read too high?)
3.) The gun likes 175's better than 168's and these better than 155's although you are kind of splitting hairs between the 168 and 175's.
4.) Stacy has some great data to get you started on sub-sonic load development but I found that his loads were "hot" launching bullets at 1,085+ fps (just super sonic here at 5,280msl) causing the bullets to go transonic and wobble at 100 yards.
With respect sub sonic loads:
i. Its more challenging than full power loads and perhaps more fun.
ii. Hornady 225gr Match or 220gr SMK bullets do not quite stabilize at sub-sonic speeds.
iii. Due to the shorter length, the gun does stabilize 220gr hornady round nose and they shoot really well (1" or less at 100 yards).
iv. Trailboss works MUCH better than unique
v. CC 350 magnum pistol primers work MUCH better than Fed 210m primers
vi. 208gr AMAX look like they will work really well (more testing needed)
5. All of my 308 Match loads have shot under 1/2 MOA in the gun except my 155gr loads which shoot .7 - 1 MOA.
Summary: The gun feeds flawlessly, has a nice balance (w/the can attached), and shoots everything well (except 220-225gr sub-sonic match bullets)
have fun ... good shooting ...
Re: AI AE Covert
Good information there with the updates you have of course being as we discussed the altitude differences of our two locations. Good shooting and I believe you are going to really be impressed with the .208 AMAX.
Good information there with the updates you have of course being as we discussed the altitude differences of our two locations. Good shooting and I believe you are going to really be impressed with the .208 AMAX.
Re: AI AE Covert
I too have received my AI AE Mk II Covert from Mile High.
It is a superb precision tool. It also is my experience that everyone at Mile High has been wonderful to deal with.
It shoots great in daylight, I'd like to learn if it will perform equally well in the dark.
I would be appreciative to hear the opinions and experiences of others who have gone before me so-to-speak into the night. : )
The challenges include selecting a night vision devise and mount. In my reading I've seen suggestion that the AI fore-end rail IMUNS from Badger may not in it's stock form adapt well to the Covert's Suppressor.
Cadex also has a fore-end rail for AI
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=629469
I had though I would select the ATN PS40-WPT™ to mount before a SB 5-25 PMII I own as the NV devise.
http://www.atncorp.com/nightvision-daynight-atnps40-wpt
This is a Gen 4 product with a gray scale display. It is less expensive then a BNS PV 22. The specs, to me, look better.
Resolution 60-74 lp/mm
Signal to noise, minimum 18-26
The objective will be to place a bullet precisely on target (hog) at 100 to 300 yards with ambient light after sunset. Supplemental illumination with an IR laser is not an unacceptable option.
Thanks for your consideration
I too have received my AI AE Mk II Covert from Mile High.
It is a superb precision tool. It also is my experience that everyone at Mile High has been wonderful to deal with.
It shoots great in daylight, I'd like to learn if it will perform equally well in the dark.
I would be appreciative to hear the opinions and experiences of others who have gone before me so-to-speak into the night. : )
The challenges include selecting a night vision devise and mount. In my reading I've seen suggestion that the AI fore-end rail IMUNS from Badger may not in it's stock form adapt well to the Covert's Suppressor.
Cadex also has a fore-end rail for AI
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=629469
I had though I would select the ATN PS40-WPT™ to mount before a SB 5-25 PMII I own as the NV devise.
http://www.atncorp.com/nightvision-daynight-atnps40-wpt
This is a Gen 4 product with a gray scale display. It is less expensive then a BNS PV 22. The specs, to me, look better.
Resolution 60-74 lp/mm
Signal to noise, minimum 18-26
The objective will be to place a bullet precisely on target (hog) at 100 to 300 yards with ambient light after sunset. Supplemental illumination with an IR laser is not an unacceptable option.
Thanks for your consideration
Re: AI AE Covert
Well I'm still in the dark so-to-speak : )
But I've discovered a few things. I would be appreciative to hear from those with experience to place them into appropriate context.
Gathering comparable data from ATN information on PS404, PS40P3 and PS40WPT, shows;
All Tubes are MIL-STD-810, This is a 1962 spec, the current generation is MIL-STD-810G. What version of MIL-STD-810 applies to these products?
WPT is a Multi-Alali Tube So this can't be as sensitive as a Gen III with existing technology.
4 & 3 are Gallium Arsenide. Both are Auto Gated.
4 is Filmless
Filmless Tubes have greater light transmission but have been reported to have more limited length of service, maybe too limited.
ATN data reports identical MTTF for both 3P & 4 and both are warranted 2 years. How did they do that? Is there some science here or did someone just calculate that average use per year is probably well below 100 hours so the estimated warranted claims per year relative to Tube Failure could be justified through the the marketing advantage of the better spec. or is there data to support 10,000 hours MTTF in a Filmless tube?
The Sensitivity of the 3P is reported as 2000 - 2800 us/lm but no data is reported for 4. Why is that? Filmless should be expected to have greater sensitivity. Can you tell me how much greater?
Quality of image, Both the 3P and 4 share identical SNF of 25 - 30. They also share identical Resolution of 64 - 72 lap/mm. But, FOM is reported as 2000 for a 4 tube and 1800 for a 3P. Of course these figures are averages and individual tubes vary, but if you accurately report average Resolution and SNF for 3P & 4, FOM which is SNF X Resolution must equal the same as well. Why is FOM different?
Well I'm still in the dark so-to-speak : )
But I've discovered a few things. I would be appreciative to hear from those with experience to place them into appropriate context.
Gathering comparable data from ATN information on PS404, PS40P3 and PS40WPT, shows;
All Tubes are MIL-STD-810, This is a 1962 spec, the current generation is MIL-STD-810G. What version of MIL-STD-810 applies to these products?
WPT is a Multi-Alali Tube So this can't be as sensitive as a Gen III with existing technology.
4 & 3 are Gallium Arsenide. Both are Auto Gated.
4 is Filmless
Filmless Tubes have greater light transmission but have been reported to have more limited length of service, maybe too limited.
ATN data reports identical MTTF for both 3P & 4 and both are warranted 2 years. How did they do that? Is there some science here or did someone just calculate that average use per year is probably well below 100 hours so the estimated warranted claims per year relative to Tube Failure could be justified through the the marketing advantage of the better spec. or is there data to support 10,000 hours MTTF in a Filmless tube?
The Sensitivity of the 3P is reported as 2000 - 2800 us/lm but no data is reported for 4. Why is that? Filmless should be expected to have greater sensitivity. Can you tell me how much greater?
Quality of image, Both the 3P and 4 share identical SNF of 25 - 30. They also share identical Resolution of 64 - 72 lap/mm. But, FOM is reported as 2000 for a 4 tube and 1800 for a 3P. Of course these figures are averages and individual tubes vary, but if you accurately report average Resolution and SNF for 3P & 4, FOM which is SNF X Resolution must equal the same as well. Why is FOM different?
Re: AI AE Covert
Well here goes with some inputs:
1. No sir, currently the Covert lacks the ability to accept UNS systems due to the mounting bracket(s) do not clear the suppressor. This is in work and will available soon.
2. You mention 100-300yd night shoots, and IR Illumination is NOT acceptable. I do not understand this one for a couple of reasons but no matter really, a good Gen III system does not require assistance unless you are in the cover of trees, shooting into a shadowed area with high light conditions or attempting to shoot with the day scope on to high of magnification acceptable for lighting conditions.
3. You mention ATN and Gen 4 systems, I would recommend you look into other manufactures for higher quality and stick with a true Gen 3 whether MIL-SPEC or not for your application really will not make a bit of difference.
Question for you, what day optics are you currently running and now knowing the application, have you considered a dedicated Night System such as the Raptor 4x. If you are not opposed to removing and installing the day/night systems on the one weapon you are planning on using for the application, this is a fantastic way to go and there are less expensive models which apply as well. The UNS system really will only pay off for you if you plan on moving it around on different weapons or spotting systems. If you would like to discuss in detail your objectives and options, feel free to PM or email me to setup a time to discuss. Have a great holiday weekend to all.
Well here goes with some inputs:
1. No sir, currently the Covert lacks the ability to accept UNS systems due to the mounting bracket(s) do not clear the suppressor. This is in work and will available soon.
2. You mention 100-300yd night shoots, and IR Illumination is NOT acceptable. I do not understand this one for a couple of reasons but no matter really, a good Gen III system does not require assistance unless you are in the cover of trees, shooting into a shadowed area with high light conditions or attempting to shoot with the day scope on to high of magnification acceptable for lighting conditions.
3. You mention ATN and Gen 4 systems, I would recommend you look into other manufactures for higher quality and stick with a true Gen 3 whether MIL-SPEC or not for your application really will not make a bit of difference.
Question for you, what day optics are you currently running and now knowing the application, have you considered a dedicated Night System such as the Raptor 4x. If you are not opposed to removing and installing the day/night systems on the one weapon you are planning on using for the application, this is a fantastic way to go and there are less expensive models which apply as well. The UNS system really will only pay off for you if you plan on moving it around on different weapons or spotting systems. If you would like to discuss in detail your objectives and options, feel free to PM or email me to setup a time to discuss. Have a great holiday weekend to all.
Re: AI AE Covert
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stacey @ MHSA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
3. You mention ATN and Gen 4 systems, I would recommend you look into other manufactures for higher quality and stick with a true Gen 3 whether MIL-SPEC or not for your application really will not make a bit of difference.</div></div>
+1 Friends don't let friends use ATN and NODs are firmly in the "buy once, cry once" arena
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stacey @ MHSA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
3. You mention ATN and Gen 4 systems, I would recommend you look into other manufactures for higher quality and stick with a true Gen 3 whether MIL-SPEC or not for your application really will not make a bit of difference.</div></div>
+1 Friends don't let friends use ATN and NODs are firmly in the "buy once, cry once" arena
Re: AI AE Covert
Finally got the paperwork through the system and had a chance to shoot the gun with the suppressor today. Went to the range to get a 100 yd zero for 175gr FGMM.
Here is the gun w/o the suppressor:
Here is the gun with the Suppressor installed:
And here are some shots that demonstrate the POI shift with the suppressor on and off at 100 yards (about .6 mils low and .1 right):
Tried some sub sonic loads using 208 Amax and find that cycling the action makes more noise than the shot does. Most fun I have had with a .308 in months.
Good shooting ...
Finally got the paperwork through the system and had a chance to shoot the gun with the suppressor today. Went to the range to get a 100 yd zero for 175gr FGMM.
Here is the gun w/o the suppressor:
Here is the gun with the Suppressor installed:
And here are some shots that demonstrate the POI shift with the suppressor on and off at 100 yards (about .6 mils low and .1 right):
Tried some sub sonic loads using 208 Amax and find that cycling the action makes more noise than the shot does. Most fun I have had with a .308 in months.
Good shooting ...
