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All new TRG

Re: All new TRG

The main gripe , I have with all the NEW PSR driven rifles , is the very high top rail , and very high mounting of the scope , due to the need to also be capable of mounting a forward NV device .

As, I and most civies that use these new rifles , I would like there to be available with out the high top rail , and a special lower mounting be made for us normal civie users , with out having to have something modifed by a gunsmith on a one off basis .

So what I am saying is , I want the top rail removed as a option .

I have a AX , setting in the UK at the moment , and according to my dealer the rail cannot be removed , and then according to a US dealer , IT can ?


Later Chris
 
Re: All new TRG

Yes, it's tacticool as Pete said. Given the enormous upcharge on the current TRG for a folding stock, I can only imagine what one of these tacticool TRGs will cost. My calculator doesn't go that high and I still love my old school M40A3.
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We are having trouble getting the older TRG's here in Europe.
due to the Mil-LE thing. in some european countries there is such thing as a list of weapons of war, get a firearm on that list and it becomes difficult to sell it to civies. i can follow that if we are talking about semi-full auto capability, but when it comes to a bolt action i find it bullshit.
The problem is in the mind of officials and politicians and some senoir police officers, who see a "tactical" bolt action rifle as been something akin to the Iraqui super gun, or WMD. never having been near a rifle bieng fired they fear the long range capability and "ninja" style killing such a rifle apparently brings.
Not understanding that a capable rifleman will, if nessecary shoot your lights out at very extended ranges with a half decent hunting rifle.

Im am 2 or even 4 minds on the latest craze of "modern" sniper rifles.

1. They are all too damn heavy. often designed by people who have never actualy used such a rifle in anger, or actualy been anyhwhere near shots bieng fired back at you.
2. All the multi quick adjustable bells and whistles are something between a gimick and a luxury.
3.does one actualy need a full length picatinny rail from rear of action to the end of the stock ?
4. many of these modern type's have so many sharp edges and bits sticking out that you end up with bruises and cuts that can actualy reduce your effectiveness in a long term battlefield sitaution,they are simply uncomfortable to use constantly in a field situation not to mention having you caught up in your Ghillie suit or cammo netting like a haddock in a fishing net.

There are reasons that the half dozen most popular and usable sniper rifles over the last 20 years where so successfull. I just wonder if the progression has gone too far, as it seems to be bieng driven by what some concieve as bieng desirable, but this isnt nesseceraly what the guys on the ground want and need.

Having said all that, there is no denying that the things look damn good, Tacticool is in. and yes i do like the look of the new TRG, an the others like the AX.
So i think we will see more and more multi adjustable, picatinny on everything stocked sniper rifles over then next few years.
Personaly i want everything I need on a rifle, i dont want anything on it i don't need. i want to be able to adjust it to fit me and then clock it down so it doesnt self adjust. I dont want it too heavy or to long.I want it to comfortably fit my body and dont want to be covered in bruises and grazed knuckes every time i use the thing, appearance and tacticool butchness come a long way down the list of priorities..
Having said that, if a rifle lokks right, from an ergonomic point of view, then generaly it is right.
i just wonder though where the line between tactical necessity and tacticool is actualy drawn.

Pete </div></div>


Completely disagree with everything. Also why the gripe about the weight? The arguably greatest sniper rifle to present date, the AWSM is just as heavy.
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The main gripe , I have with all the NEW PSR driven rifles , is the very high top rail , and very high mounting of the scope , due to the need to also be capable of mounting a forward NV device .

As, I and most civies that use these new rifles , I would like there to be available with out the high top rail , and a special lower mounting be made for us normal civie users , with out having to have something modifed by a gunsmith on a one off basis .

So what I am saying is , I want the top rail removed as a option .

I have a AX , setting in the UK at the moment , and according to my dealer the rail cannot be removed , and then according to a US dealer , IT can ?


Later Chris </div></div>

This is ridiculous. I don't see the problem with the HOB in these modern designs. any scope you would WANT to mount on these rifles has the travel to reach zero and max range.
As far as cheek weld goes they all have adjustable cheek weld.
 
Re: All new TRG

People complain about HOB, but yet it's just like a AR style rifle where there is no drop in comb and you don't see people complaining about that.
 
Re: All new TRG

what is the disadvantage of having the scope high above the bore? or can someone point me to a link that would explain.

thanks
 
Re: All new TRG

thats the geat thing about opinions, we all have one.

and like i said, im in 2 minds about theses rifles.

I like the look of most of them, and looks sell.

but putting my self back in green kit and boots..

nearly all sniper rifles i see today are just too damn heavy,

the weight seems to be creeping up and up. now whilst i fully understand that a .338 lapua rifle will weigh more than a 7.62x51 rifle, i do believe that there is a weight that a sniper rifle needs to be, and above that the weight is just baggage.
There is absolutely no use for the 12" of picatinny rail that sits fron the end of the rifle action under the scope objective bell and out to where a NVD would mount.. so loose it, its baggage.
same goes for big knurled knobs, fancy catches etc, baggage, a hex head screw weighs less.

my guess is if you remove all the un nessecary claggage from most of the modern sniper rifles, used barrel profiles that are heavy enough, without bieng too heavy and long enough without bieng too long, you could get most of them down to 4.0 to 5.0 kg. any i happen to think that 5kg is about right, add 1 kg to 1.5 kg and you notice the extra weight.

M40 4.1kg
M40A1 5.25kg
M85 5.6kg
1903A4 4.6kg
TRG 4.7 to 5.3kg
AIAW 6.5 to 6.9kg
Steyr SSG 3.9 to 4.2kg
USMC M40A3 6.2kg
L42A1 4.5kg
M24A1 5.4kg
No4 Mk1 T 4kg
Remington MSR. 5.9 to 7kg
PGM UR 6.1 to 7.4kg
PGW C14 7.1kg


Another thing i wonder about is caliber swap ability.
We see the desire amongs the LE operators here to want to be able to swap barrels and calibers.
The bean counters go along with it because for the price of a barrel they are getting in effect 2 rifles.
But i can't see anyone having time to swap a barrel and bolt head to taylor the rifle to the expected threat, go to the range and check zero etc the minute they get a call out,.
Which means rifles get configured in one or other configuration and left that way, negating the requirement for caliber interchangability..

Optics high above bore..

rifle becomes top heavy as weight is moved away from the centre mass of the rifle

the lower the barrel is and the higher the optics are, the more you have to expose your self from cover to get the damn rifle barrel clear of cover

the higher the optics, the more chance you have of canting the rifle

the higher the optics are, the more problems you get with ergonomics



maybe i'm just old fashioned..

Pete



 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g3ninfinite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
sako-trg-42.jpg
</div></div>

Sorry, but got to say I think that is fugly!
 
Re: All new TRG

Pete L,

Some very good points, esp. about high optics. Please note that the PGW Timberwolf is 15 lbs., not kg. Also the MRAD is the same, 6.7 kg.

s
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g3ninfinite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
sako-trg-42.jpg
</div></div>

Sorry, but got to say I think that is fugly! </div></div>

The question there is...wtf did they put a Larue Tactical STOMP mount on a god damn rifle that has a the complete top rail.....it serves no purpose to my eye in that scenario.
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trigger time</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can't read it, but it looks like the mags just have a poly bottom to them.
http://www.altair.com.pl/start-6826 </div></div>

My translation (google) might be a little rough...


At London's DSEi exhibition in the colors of Beretta Defense Technologies debuted wielokalibrowy, modular SAKO TRG sniper rifle M10.
i-i11-09-050sako01.jpg


In London, he debuted a new, wielokalibrowy SAKO TRG sniper rifle M10. The weapon is available in three calibers, with barrel lengths we have available, with varying degrees of dorsal mikroskosem mounting rail, with the various lodges in different colors

Finnish weapon was developed specifically launched in 2009 the American Precision Sniper Rifles (PSR), in which special forces command (U.S. SOCOM) wants to replace their existing structures - M24, M40 and Mk 13th SAKO joined the competition with a new, albeit based on solutions TRG TRG 22/42 M10 rifle. Its world premiere takes place at the DSEi exhibition held in London.

TRG SAKO M10 has a modular design - based on a common chamber castle you can get guns in three calibers, with two bed lengths running rails. The castle is also the key that allows you to unscrew the bolt retainer and disassembly of the barrel bed. After replacing the barrel, lock and gun magazine can be adjusted to three types of ammunition 7.62 mm x 51, 7.62 mm x 67 (.300 Winchester Magnum) and 8.6 mm x 70 (.338 Lapua Magnum). The first cartridge is used mainly for training, due to lower costs and less wear on the bore. Barrels, locks and magazines are clearly marked, so the shooter could by touch, even in the dark, distinguish between different calibers.

i-i11-09-050sako02.jpg

Removed from the set of bed rails, side locks and magazines for ammunition, 7.62 mm x 51 (left) and 8.6 mm x 70 (right) / Picture: Remigiusz Wolf

The new rifle is SAKO folding the right side of the castle chambers flask with adjustable feet and increase the length of the buccal pads. At the bottom of the flask is a universal mounting rail used to mount the rear supports.

Available barrel lengths for ammunition 7.62 mm x 51 are 408, 510, 602 and 656 mm, magazine holds 11 rounds. For the 7.62 mm ammunition and 8.6 x 67 mm x 70 is offered with barrel lengths of 408, 510, 602 and 689 mm, magazine capacity of the first caliber is 7 rounds, while in the second eighth Exterior dimensions are the same magazines.
 
Re: All new TRG

I am gonna look like a hipocryt when our production version of the Raptor stock comes out in a couple of weeks mind. but at least its available simplified, without all the bells and whistles, with bells and whistles as an option should one so desire.

I seriously thing that forward mounted night vision optics manufacturers should look into getting the optics mounted lower. if you could have the bottom of the night vision unit sit above the barrel at the height that the inside of the handguard tube sits at 12 oclock on most of these rifles, you'd save 1 to 1.5" of height.
tilting the unit and mounting it at an angle on an angled side mount seems to be the lowest option ive seen so far.

I personaly like enough room between the scope objective bell and the barrel to get butlercreek (or other) covers on there, plus a little clearance. ( but the butlercreek issue is another matter,)

anyhow.. the new TRG looks mega tacticool. it will sell.
they have put a lot of money into it, but I guess Beretta has plenty of that..

I'm still in 2 minds about these new rifles.. i like the way they look.-.- mean.-.- but i dont like the weight and getting hung up on this and that..
must be a happy medium somewhere in there..
got me thinking anyhow..

Pete
 
Re: All new TRG

So, what does this mean for the current generation TRGs? Will Sako still be making them, or will they be discontinued?
 
Re: All new TRG

they look but i prefer a normal stock its too tactical for me
pete tell us more about your new actions and raptor
i call u next week as you say on tel for my weapon i hope i get it then..
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since everyone else seems to be so lukewarm about it, I'd like to be the first to say "I like it a LOT!" </div></div>

You were? </div></div>

I've been monitoring this thread steadily, but I guess there were a few posts I missed.
 
Re: All new TRG

Rhetorical question; if its supposed to compete in the US military PSR-contract, would you expect Sako has verified that it can shoot in accordance with the requirements, or not?
 
Re: All new TRG

Being a die hard TRG 22/42 fan I have to throw my .02 in. I have talked to someone who had time to finger fuck one and he was not that impressed with it. Meaning this: the quality was there, the design was good all what you would expect coming from the "old" TRG blod line. But in all actuallity it was built for the PSR contract and is just like all the other entries. So what does this mean to me, a bad ass rifle with a bunch of cool features that I can tell all my shooting buddys about but never use them. Ill stick with my "old" TRG. Looks bad ass though, I just have a hard time being a "mall hiker".
 
Re: All new TRG

It's a moot point no matter how you look at it. Unless you are military or law enforcement you can't buy one. Im not even sure why they advertise it. Its good that the other rifle manufacturers don't have the same view on precision rifles.
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Being a die hard TRG 22/42 fan I have to throw my .02 in. I have talked to someone who had time to finger fuck one and he was not that impressed with it. Meaning this: the quality was there, the design was good all what you would expect coming from the "old" TRG blod line. But in all actuallity it was built for the PSR contract and is just like all the other entries. So what does this mean to me, a bad ass rifle with a bunch of cool features that I can tell all my shooting buddys about but never use them. Ill stick with my "old" TRG. Looks bad ass though, I just have a hard time being a "mall hiker". </div></div>Bull shit. I use my "mall ninja features" all the time on my AX (similar in many ways to the new TRG.) Pic rails all over the place seem very tacticool, until you realize that it allows you to attach the rifle to a DCLW DLOC tripod, to move your bipod forward, aft, or off as needed, and it allows you to use whatever scope with whatever pic rail mount you want without having a unique dovetail adapter. ETC, but you know what I'm getting at, you've shot my rifle and I know you love it.
 
Re: All new TRG

That is true, I have a bad case of rifle envy... time for bed and dreams of a multicam AX!

It is bad ass, I just cant get rid of the TRG now...
frown.gif
 
Re: All new TRG

I don't buy the mil and LE only restriction for this rifle. If it goes into production, they will sell it here in the US. It might be hard to get your hands on, but I have no doubt that it will be available at some point.

I like the look of the one with the short rail. I'm curious about the ergos though. The classic TRG stock feels like perfection to me, I don't know how if could get any better. Either way this will be an interesting to keep an eye on the TRG M10 to see what develops.
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the weight seems to be creeping up and up.
my guess is if you remove all the un nessecary claggage from most of the modern sniper rifles, used barrel profiles that are heavy enough, without bieng too heavy and long enough without bieng too long, you could get most of them down to 4.0 to 5.0 kg. any i happen to think that 5kg is about right, add 1 kg to 1.5 kg and you notice the extra weight.

M40 4.1kg
M40A1 5.25kg
M85 5.6kg
1903A4 4.6kg
TRG 4.7 to 5.3kg
AIAW 6.5 to 6.9kg
Steyr SSG 3.9 to 4.2kg
USMC M40A3 6.2kg
L42A1 4.5kg
M24A1 5.4kg
No4 Mk1 T 4kg
Remington MSR. 5.9 to 7kg
PGM UR 6.1 to 7.4kg
PGW C14 7.1kg
</div></div>
And then there is AI AX 338, 7.8kg. Thats healthy +20lbs with optics and bipod...
eek.gif
Wouldnt actually want to carry it.
Even 4.7kg TRG42 feels heavy after couple of days actually carrying it.
 
Re: All new TRG


While , I agree with the Mil/LEO being BS on a bolt action rifle in principle , as far as others , when I applied to export a AI AWM out of the USA , I had correct New Zealand Import permits etc , I was TOLD , NO the USA will not allow this rifle to be exported as it was a Mil/LEO rifle according to the US State Dept , NICE .

SO I sold the gun in the US .

And lucky for ME , AIs are not made in the USA , Opps , so I brought a brand new AWM direct from the UK , no drama at all , imagine THAT .



Later Chris
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: g3ninfinite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
sako-trg-42.jpg
</div></div>

Sorry, but got to say I think that is fugly! </div></div>

I absolutely agree. But that isn't the actual TRG being discussed. It may have been the initial prototyping pig.
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mnshortdraw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmm. Not sure on that one. Looks front heavy and I've never cared for their folder. Might look good with the KRG buttstock. </div></div>

The folder's are heavier. I too think I would prefer the KRG rear stock. I don't like right folding stocks on anything - I understand the PSR aspect for this. It's just worthless for me.
 
Re: All new TRG

And I thought the TRG couldn't get any uglier...

Put it, an AX, and a pressure washer wand all on a rack and have an ugly gun contest.
 
Re: All new TRG

- Magazine capacity 8 in 338LM
- Stock folds left and right
- Max cartridge lenght 88.4mm/3.48" (typo?)
- Total weight (27" barrel, full lenght rail system) 6.5kg/14.3lbs
- I refuse to believe that Sako engineers can not come up any better than Harris bipod

9tn3is.jpg


2qi4sud.jpg


5doyu0.jpg


2vaf71f.jpg


1622ool.jpg


 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">- I refuse to believe that Sako engineers can not come up any better than Harris bipod </div></div>

That shows that they must listen to their customers who didn't enjoy spending €450 (or whatever) on the old bipod!!
laugh.gif


Thank goodness for Kasey and the Atlas!!
 
Re: All new TRG

I will seriously consider moving to the new TRG from my current TRG-22 folder.

There are a number of things that really, really look good on the new one.

We'll have to see as price and availability become known. But I like what I see.

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Im am 2 or even 4 minds on the latest craze of "modern" sniper rifles.

1. They are all too damn heavy. often designed by people who have never actually used such a rifle in anger, or actually been anywhere near shots being fired back at you.

2. All the multi quick adjustable bells and whistles are something between a gimmick and a luxury.

3.does one actually need a full length picatinny rail from rear of action to the end of the stock ?

4. many of these modern type's have so many sharp edges and bits sticking out that you end up with bruises and cuts that can actually reduce your effectiveness in a long term battlefield situation,they are simply uncomfortable to use constantly in a field situation not to mention having you caught up in your Ghillie suit or camo netting like a haddock in a fishing net.

There are reasons that the half dozen most popular and usable sniper rifles over the last 20 years where so successful. I just wonder if the progression has gone too far, as it seems to be being driven by what some conceive as being desirable, but this inst necessarily what the guys on the ground want and need.
Pete </div></div>

Bingo.

To many knobs and gizmos. I have 1 face, so why the hell would i need everything adjustable *ALL THE TIME*

additional shit to remember, more random bits on the stock, and more weight, all for the sake of modularity and tacticool.

I guess my mind is starting to work in reverse on me, because a M40A1 keeps sounding smarter and smarter every time I see the word "Innovation, or Tactical" when a new precision rifle product comes out.
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And I thought the TRG couldn't get any uglier...

Put it, an AX, and a pressure washer wand all on a rack and have an ugly gun contest. </div></div>


I agree, but for some reason I want one of these....
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alderleet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I guess my mind is starting to work in reverse on me, because a M40A1 keeps sounding smarter and smarter every time I see the word "Innovation, or Tactical" when a new precision rifle product comes out.
</div></div>

Yeah why use a brand new fully adjustable system when you can use your old non-adjustable system that weighs more...
 
Re: All new TRG

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lill-rambo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alderleet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I guess my mind is starting to work in reverse on me, because a M40A1 keeps sounding smarter and smarter every time I see the word "Innovation, or Tactical" when a new precision rifle product comes out.
</div></div>

Yeah why use a brand new fully adjustable system when you can use your old non-adjustable system that weighs more... </div></div>

Thank god someone said it. Might not weigh more. But just as much.
 
Re: All new TRG

It is growing on me a bit but I'm still holding out for some more technical details. I still think the AR rail is unnecessary of course on a civvie rifle but even on a mil rifle there's several good mounting options for NV.

Full, quick adjustability is a double edge sword that we thought long and hard about ourselves. For just doing range days and fun shoots and whatnot, the adjustability is nice because us shooters are constantly trying new optics, positions, or letting our friends shoot our rifles. We have also found it's handy to pop off the cheek piece and the buttpad for cleaning, bore sighting, what have you. But it comes at a cost of weight, complexity, and cost.

There's something to be said about an M-24 (or any rifle) that you've put 3k rounds through, have a modified cheek riser taped in place, LOP set for good, etc. You just grab it and go shooting.
Justin
 
Re: All new TRG

If it's like the TRG safety of the past, the bolt will lock into the action when on safe and when the folder is folded to the right to keep the rifle at a very slim profile for transport.
 
Re: All new TRG

I think what he was asking is where are the lug abutments, in the action or on the barrel like the MSR. Sako is keeping pretty mum about the whole barrel change/bolt lockup system it sounds like. Our contact couldn't say much, and if you look at all the pictures, none of them show the breech end of the barrels. That is by design as they say they have something different than everyone else.
Justin
 
Re: All new TRG

I don't know why I don't like bolt guns in AR looking chassis. I like the TRG and the "skinned" AI's, but those futuristic stocks do nothing for me. That said, I'm sure it is super accurate and durable.