Am I expecting to much???

B Man

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I went to build (armorer built it) my first AR in a 308 win for range and hunting with expectations of 1 MOA at 100 yds. But I’m only getting maybe 1.25-1.5 moa mostly, might will avg 1.25 moa.
I spec’d it out with the guy and had it built. In the beginning it was a nightmare hitting 2-3 MOA with a certain manufacturer’s barrel but they warrantied it and after trying two more we went another route and I had a Rainer UltraMatch Mod2 20” installed. Gun shoots better but still is not consistent. I know they are harder to shoot according to what folks say so I installed a Ultradyne Apollo S brake on it to see if it would help tame it down (not that recoil is bad at all), still the same. No worse, no better. This is with various Factory Match loads, it favors FGMM 168’s.
Hand loads I have used 125 NBT with TAC & XBR 8208, 168 & 178 eldm’s with varget & TAC.
With all of them after finding what it liked I would get .5-.7” 5 shot groups then load up some more to verify and it would shoot 1-1.5” sometimes 1.75” at 100 yards. Next group might go back sub MOA. Even with the FGMM.

Gun is
Aero upper and lower
Lapped receiver
Bedded barrel extension
Aero Atlas S one handguard
Rainer Ultramatch mod 2 20” barrel
Seekins Adjustable gas block
Elf Match Pro lock trigger
FAB Raps butt stock
BA nitride BCG
Midwest 20 moa mount
Optika 6 scope

I did try another proven scope as well to make sure I didn’t get a bad scope. Same thing. Gun wants to shoot but then goes a little wild and just has me about to pull my hair out.

So my question, are they able to shoot an honest consistent sub MOA or are folks just cherry picking there groups they share with there AR 308’s like I could do with this one and I am probably getting about all I can without having craddock or someone spin me a barrel?

Pictures for reference of what it has done.
21E73222-1927-4461-B521-78C5DB45D836.jpeg
02EE58F3-5A83-4448-8510-D1A3704117AA.jpeg63C7109B-BDC6-4608-B02C-3849BF04DA19.jpeg78D016BA-D164-4BA1-8002-885CF295C79E.jpeg971C722E-8380-48FE-A2E0-A6E9876E0335.jpeg
 
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nn8734

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  • Feb 26, 2013
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    1.25-1.5 moa is the norm for a vast majority of large frame .308 semis and/or shooters working with semis, worse if you’re new to them as they are much less forgiving than bolt guns.

    My mk11 mod 0 shoots 1.25 moa on average but is basically bulletproof in terms of reliability, consistency, etc. also have no problems making hits on 2/3 ipsc to 800m (beyond on really good days).
     
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    XP1K

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    I had a POF that would do the same thing. Shoot great on one trip, next time out it would be 3moa. Sold that sucker.

    Had a sig 716 after that. One of the early ones. Put a custom brake on it and it was a freak of nature. Crazy easy to shoot well. Decided I wanted to contour the back of the brake a little and I guess it changed the harmonics. Never shot right again.

    Shooting a PWS now. It's pretty consistent. 75-1 moa but I did have my share of trouble getting it there.

    Large frame gas guns are a strange animal to me. Work on your technique and try to stay as consistent as possible.
     

    UpSideDown

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    Get a box of 168gr Federal Gold Medal Match and see how it shoots. That is the yardstick for measuring .308 gas gun precision.

    Do you know how to shoot a large frame gas gun? It's not the same technique as a bolt action. A muzzle brake will make no difference in precision unless you're flinching, the bullet is already out of the gun. If it's changing between strings it's probably you, or the barrel is heating up and deflecting, or you're seeing mirage.
     

    aslrookie

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    I've been on both sides of the fence with large frame gassers. I have built and bought factory. I built a 260 remington years ago with a proof research barrel. Shot under 1 moa all day long. It was with Aero receivers and rail. I honestly couldn't handload a bad load for it. It was not picky at all. Now, I have a factory LMT 6.5 that shoots like a dream and not even broken in yet.

    The biggest difference between the two is the built rifle was nice, but definitely not LMT nice. The fit, finish, overall quality is much higher with the LMT than my build. The biggest factor with my previous build shooting so well was definitely the proof barrel. I never lapped, bedded, or squared the face of the upper on the build.

    I am probably the minority in this forum of not having a single bolt gun. All I shoot are gassers and have been for the last 16 years (weird to say being I am not an old fart). Maybe it's you, maybe it's the parts, likely both.
     

    n2ishun

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    Myself ?

    I would go thru the rifle from stem to stern and make sure everything is the way it's supposed to be.
    Did the barrel loosen ?
    Is the scope base tight, straight, torqued correctly ?
    Are the tensioning allen screws correct in that Elf trigger (I HATE Elf triggers in a large frame and man have I returned more than one, they are fine in a AR15).
    Check bolt face for any unusual wear pattern.
    Try 4064 powder.
    Try IMI Razorcore 175 grain, try PMC X-tac Match 168 and 175 (I've had superb luck with those YMMV).

    Don't give up yet.
     

    B Man

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    Find a well experienced 308 gas gun shooter to try different factory ammos through it. It could be your technique.
    My problem is I don’t know many….. If so I would hand it off quick to be sure it isn’t me.
    I had a POF that would do the same thing. Shoot great on one trip, next time out it would be 3moa. Sold that sucker.

    Had a sig 716 after that. One of the early ones. Put a custom brake on it and it was a freak of nature. Crazy easy to shoot well. Decided I wanted to contour the back of the brake a little and I guess it changed the harmonics. Never shot right again.

    Shooting a PWS now. It's pretty consistent. 75-1 moa but I did have my share of trouble getting it there.

    Large frame gas guns are a strange animal to me. Work on your technique and try to stay as consistent as possible.
    I have thought many times about selling it and moving on. But I do really like the way it is built and it seems to TRY and shoot. Unless it’s me.
    Get a box of 168gr Federal Gold Medal Match and see how it shoots. That is the yardstick for measuring .308 gas gun precision.

    Do you know how to shoot a large frame gas gun? It's not the same technique as a bolt action. A muzzle brake will make no difference in precision unless you're flinching, the bullet is already out of the gun. If it's changing between strings it's probably you, or the barrel is heating up and deflecting, or you're seeing mirage.
    That’s what I use as a base line, 168 FGMM.
    I have shot 168 & 175 FGMM, Hornady 168 Match BTHP & ELDM, Armscor 168 bthp (my 5r loves these) & Federal premium 168 Berger’s. It favors the 168 FGMM
    I've been on both sides of the fence with large frame gassers. I have built and bought factory. I built a 260 remington years ago with a proof research barrel. Shot under 1 moa all day long. It was with Aero receivers and rail. I honestly couldn't handload a bad load for it. It was not picky at all. Now, I have a factory LMT 6.5 that shoots like a dream and not even broken in yet.

    The biggest difference between the two is the built rifle was nice, but definitely not LMT nice. The fit, finish, overall quality is much higher with the LMT than my build. The biggest factor with my previous build shooting so well was definitely the proof barrel. I never lapped, bedded, or squared the face of the upper on the build.

    I am probably the minority in this forum of not having a single bolt gun. All I shoot are gassers and have been for the last 16 years (weird to say being I am not an old fart). Maybe it's you, maybe it's the parts, likely both.
    Yeah and I’m the opposite, I have always owned bolt guns which may not help in this scenario.
    Myself ?

    I would go thru the rifle from stem to stern and make sure everything is the way it's supposed to be.
    Did the barrel loosen ?
    Is the scope base tight, straight, torqued correctly ?
    Are the tensioning allen screws correct in that Elf trigger (I HATE Elf triggers in a large frame and man have I returned more than one, they are fine in a AR15).
    Check bolt face for any unusual wear pattern.
    Try 4064 powder.
    Try IMI Razorcore 175 grain, try PMC X-tac Match 168 and 175 (I've had superb luck with those YMMV).

    Don't give up yet.
    I and the armorer have. I have learned way more in the last 7 months than I ever intended to about an AR. But I do know my rifle now I guess. I also took the barrel off when I bedded it and torqued it to 50lbs when I reinstalled it. I may try some PMC x tac ammo. But it’s not that it won’t shoot it’s that it will shoot great then shoot really bad. Like it’s throwing shots.
     
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    redneckbmxer24

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    Is your rest/bench setup always the same? I just noticed that folding table in your one pic and if that’s what you’re shooting off of, that’s far from ideal.
     

    XP1K

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    Do you shoot your bolt guns and the gasser on the same trip ? I have a hard time transitioning between bolt guns and the big gassers. If I do take both I shoot the gas gun first.

    Maybe I'm just weird.
     

    B Man

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    Is your rest/bench setup always the same? I just noticed that folding table in your one pic and if that’s what you’re shooting off of, that’s far from ideal.
    No, that was just the only picture I had of my rifle. And yes, those tables are not stable at all. Usually out of my truck window when testing loads. Sounds worse from the truck window but I’m a southpaw, so I can rest my rifles wedged in the mirror, solid as a rock.

    DB0EA07E-CB2F-4DB3-BF07-7F5ACF060F5C.jpeg
    Do you shoot your bolt guns and the gasser on the same trip ? I have a hard time transitioning between bolt guns and the big gassers. If I do take both I shoot the gas gun first.

    Maybe I'm just weird.

    Only twice and those days I was tweaking loads on the bolt guns that I had to Check loads on with a different primer with this shortage going on. So wasn’t focused on the AR those days. But yeah, definitely figured out they are different.
     
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    Baron23

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    Get a box of 168gr Federal Gold Medal Match and see how it shoots. That is the yardstick for measuring .308 gas gun precision.

    Do you know how to shoot a large frame gas gun? It's not the same technique as a bolt action. A muzzle brake will make no difference in precision unless you're flinching, the bullet is already out of the gun. If it's changing between strings it's probably you, or the barrel is heating up and deflecting, or you're seeing mirage.
    This is with various Factory Match loads, it favors FGMM 168’s.
    Or...haha

    1655424945905.png
     
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    UpSideDown

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    I think he edited his post to add more info, or I glazed over the dissertation at the start and gave the same usual answers when someone says their gas gun shoots different every range trip.
    - try 168FGMM
    - try a shooter than knows gas guns


    But to the OP, you really need a solid shooting position. Bolt guns let you get away with a lot. A good quality bipod from the prone, not through the truck window or off a plastic table.
     

    Baron23

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    I think he edited his post to add more info, or I glazed over the dissertation at the start and gave the same usual answers when someone says their gas gun shoots different every range trip.
    - try 168FGMM
    - try a shooter than knows gas guns


    But to the OP, you really need a solid shooting position. Bolt guns let you get away with a lot. A good quality bipod from the prone, not through the truck window or off a plastic table.
    Ah, come on....I don't even get a laugh at the upside down text? I thought I was being very witty! LOL

    Cheers
     

    B Man

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    I think he edited his post to add more info, or I glazed over the dissertation at the start and gave the same usual answers when someone says their gas gun shoots different every range trip.
    - try 168FGMM
    - try a shooter than knows gas guns


    But to the OP, you really need a solid shooting position. Bolt guns let you get away with a lot. A good quality bipod from the prone, not through the truck window or off a plastic table.
    To add the pictures that didn’t post, the ammo I used was originally on it. I just didn’t point that out being polite. Haha.

    I don’t shoot as much as I use to, but I can shoot as good or better from my truck as I ever could prone. I won several LR matches prone (10-12 years ago when I played in it) but that was bolt guns. So I’ll give it a shot. The table, yes that’s a crap shooting prop.
     

    Constructor

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    Try using some front end control, you can shoot a bolt gun with it resting on a pod or rest with your non trigger hand under the rear but I've found gas guns shoot better with the other hand out on the forearm pulling back and down to minimize muzzle rise.
    Second thing is the locktime is much slower than a Rem 700 so you must use good trigger follow through.
    I'll second not shooting off a truck, wind blows truck moves.
     
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    B Man

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    Constructor, sounds good I’ll give it a shot. I have researched a ton and tried several different techniques. It makes an AR out to be extremely difficult to shoot and most of you are echoing this. I’ll just load a batch of loads that it seemed to like and put time behind it. I just wanted to ask you guys on here to get an idea from y’all.
     

    Milf Dots

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    If it hasn't been mentioned already, bipod pressure loading is a little different on gas guns than bolt guns. For a good test, remove the bipod and shoot how ever many five round groups you feel are enough to determine if bipod loading is a factor in the problem. Obviously, if you shoot better without the bipod attached- it's a good indication the rifle doesn't like how you're loading/not loading your bipod when it's in use.
     
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    Ravenworks

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    My problem is I don’t know many….. If so I would hand it off quick to be sure it isn’t me.

    I have thought many times about selling it and moving on. But I do really like the way it is built and it seems to TRY and shoot. Unless it’s me.

    That’s what I use as a base line, 168 FGMM.
    I have shot 168 & 175 FGMM, Hornady 168 Match BTHP & ELDM, Armscor 168 bthp (my 5r loves these) & Federal premium 168 Berger’s. It favors the 168 FGMM

    Yeah and I’m the opposite, I have always owned bolt guns which may not help in this scenario.

    I and the armorer have. I have learned way more in the last 7 months than I ever intended to about an AR. But I do know my rifle now I guess. I also took the barrel off when I bedded it and torqued it to 50lbs when I reinstalled it. I may try some PMC x tac ammo. But it’s not that it won’t shoot it’s that it will shoot great then shoot really bad. Like it’s throwing shots.

    How did you determine torque value?
     

    hafejd30

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    My RR LAR 8 was an honest 1 moa with fgmm or other match grade ammo. But it was a heavy SOB.

    Most ammo was 1-1.5 moa though
     
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    sinister

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    First, the recommendations to check everything is obviously the first step.

    Second, try off a solid foundation (perhaps the ground) with sand-bags fore-and-aft (vice the hoppy bipod).

    In the beginning it was a nightmare hitting 2-3 MOA with a certain manufacturer’s barrel but they warrantied it and after trying two more we went another route and I had a Rainer UltraMatch Mod2 20” installed.

    I am probably getting about all I can without having craddock or someone spin me a barrel?
    I don't know how an off-the-shelf production barrel can out-shoot a precision turned, chambered, and fitted one.
     
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    n2ishun

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    Meaning how did I come up with using 50lbs or did I use a torque wrench? If wrench I used it and set at 90*
    Go to 65 lbs.
    Use locktite blue on the barrel to upper mating surface (the outside of the barrel extension), make sure to grease threads with something like Moly automotive wheel bearing grease.
    This is the first thing I've seen give grief when building a big block AR, don't go all light and fluffy, do it once, do it right.

    Undo the bottom set screws on that Elf trigger, loosen trigger pins (if using something like KNS or anti walk pins) slowly and evenly tighten those set screws making sure they are exactly evenly snugged up, then tighten the trigger pins (again, if they are anti walk type pins).

    @sinister Ever see a Rainier ultra match barrel in person ?
    They ain't junk, that's fo-sho.
    Some of the nicest machining out there and that's no joke.
    I have suspicions that they are done by Pac Nor, but for sure the earlier ones were Shilen and that is a well known fact.
     

    Kadams1563

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    So I’ll throw my 2 cents in. There is some green Loctite that’s made to seal up small gaps.

    I would lap your upper receiver and Loctite the barrel in place. Allow that to set up and re assemble. Loctite everything else with blue and torque everything.
     
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    B Man

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    Go to 65 lbs.
    Use locktite blue on the barrel to upper mating surface (the outside of the barrel extension), make sure to grease threads with something like Moly automotive wheel bearing grease.
    This is the first thing I've seen give grief when building a big block AR, don't go all light and fluffy, do it once, do it right.

    Undo the bottom set screws on that Elf trigger, loosen trigger pins (if using something like KNS or anti walk pins) slowly and evenly tighten those set screws making sure they are exactly evenly snugged up, then tighten the trigger pins (again, if they are anti walk type pins).
    So I’ll throw my 2 cents in. There is some green Loctite that’s made to seal up small gaps.

    I would lap your upper receiver and Loctite the barrel in place. Allow that to set up and re assemble. Loctite everything else with blue and torque everything.

    Bedded the barrel extension with Loctite 620
    Lapped upper receiver with a lapping tool from Pacific tool
     
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    Kadams1563

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    Bedded the barrel extension with Loctite 620
    Lapped upper receiver with a lapping tool from Pacific tool
    Well shoot. Either that’s the best it’s gonna get for now or it’s you lol
     
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    Near miss

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    I was just testing different holding techniques yesterday with geco bulk and can say that even on 223 AR there was clear difference to accuracy.

    I shot one group with as tight of a hold as I could, one semi-loose but still in control (the normal way I shoot) and one without support hand.

    The tight-hold group shot easily the worst.

    The normal and one handed groups were clearly almost on par with similar POI.

    My advice, stop shooting match ammo, get the cheapest stuff and go shoot the gun, feel it first (how it recoils, POA change after shot) and then start testing what it prefers in terms of hold and support. Then start testing which ammo or load is best.
     
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    meritman

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    I went to build (armorer built it) my first AR in a 308 win for range and hunting with expectations of 1 MOA at 100 yds. But I’m only getting maybe 1.25-1.5 moa mostly, might will avg 1.25 moa.
    I spec’d it out with the guy and had it built. In the beginning it was a nightmare hitting 2-3 MOA with a certain manufacturer’s barrel but they warrantied it and after trying two more we went another route and I had a Rainer UltraMatch Mod2 20” installed. Gun shoots better but still is not consistent. I know they are harder to shoot according to what folks say so I installed a Ultradyne Apollo S brake on it to see if it would help tame it down (not that recoil is bad at all), still the same. No worse, no better. This is with various Factory Match loads, it favors FGMM 168’s.
    Hand loads I have used 125 NBT with TAC & XBR 8208, 168 & 178 eldm’s with varget & TAC.
    With all of them after finding what it liked I would get .5-.7” 5 shot groups then load up some more to verify and it would shoot 1-1.5” sometimes 1.75” at 100 yards. Next group might go back sub MOA. Even with the FGMM.

    Gun is
    Aero upper and lower
    Lapped receiver
    Bedded barrel extension
    Aero Atlas S one handguard
    Rainer Ultramatch mod 2 20” barrel
    Seekins Adjustable gas block
    Elf Match Pro lock trigger
    FAB Raps butt stock
    BA nitride BCG
    Midwest 20 moa mount
    Optika 6 scope

    I did try another proven scope as well to make sure I didn’t get a bad scope. Same thing. Gun wants to shoot but then goes a little wild and just has me about to pull my hair out.

    So my question, are they able to shoot an honest consistent sub MOA or are folks just cherry picking there groups they share with there AR 308’s like I could do with this one and I am probably getting about all I can without having craddock or someone spin me a barrel?

    Pictures for reference of what it has done.View attachment 7892997View attachment 7892999View attachment 7893001View attachment 7893002View attachment 7893003
    practices makes you perfect, i think you need to spend some more time with your lady.....
     

    Dildobaggins

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    I posted a similar topic and deleted the thread cause I got trashed about technique 🤣. That said, after that, I sat behind my gasser every day with my bipod and protektor rear bag. I probably dry fired it around 5-7k times before I took it back out. Working on form and everything else. My groups shrunk dramatically after that. Watched a ton of videos as well. I'm not new to shooting either, but you can always learn more, and you can always better your best.
     
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    B Man

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    I posted a similar topic and deleted the thread cause I got trashed about technique 🤣. That said, after that, I sat behind my gasser every day with my bipod and protektor rear bag. I probably dry fired it around 5-7k times before I took it back out. Working on form and everything else. My groups shrunk dramatically after that. Watched a ton of videos as well. I'm not new to shooting either, but you can always learn more, and you can always better your best.
    😂. Well they seem to be pretty convincing. Appreciate the past experience, I Will just keep keep working on shooting the gun.
     
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    The King

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    😂. Well they seem to be pretty convincing. Appreciate the past experience, I Will just keep keep working on shooting the gun.
    I shoot gas guns every day. Sometimes I take a break. Not usually. I’m leaving to go shoot my gas gun right now.

    Gas gun flyers are frequently caused by 1 of 3 things:

    1. You aren’t getting the same position behind the scope. Check your parallax multiple
    times and make sure you got the same everything. Then adjust the stock so you can close your eyes, get in position, and open then and have good picture.
    2. Damage to the round due to over gassing. Tune your gas system.
    3. And finally, trigger behavior. When the trigger breaks there is an eternity between then and the rifle firing. Most people are moving in that space. Dry fire helps some. Fire 1 live round after 5 dry fires 5 times in a row and check your group at the end. It also gives your rifle some time to cool.
     

    Dildobaggins

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    Last thing too. When you dry fire see if there is any movement in the reticle when the trigger breaks. If there is, you are probably torquing the trigger and not coming straight back. That milisecond of time will cause POI shifts.
     
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    GreenGO Juan

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    Dry fire practice, keeping the reticle on target helped my consistency more than actually shooting with live ammo. I found I was pulling when breaking shoots, right and down, something that I did not notice with live ammo.

    Also the closing eye, opening and still having the same point of aim means you are good and stable.

    Make a point to stay in the scope, holding on target until impact.

    Consistent holds too. I find shooting from different positions yields different point of impacts, getting consistency in different positions is hard. Be sure you’re doing the same thing every time

    Doing all this helped me

    Have you tried using a “lead sled” or some sort of device that removes the shooter entirely. I know for a fact a weighted lead sled is more consistent than me holding it. If it still does throws flyers like this, I would lean towards an issue with the tool not the user.
     
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    Ndbowhunter

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    i shoot a lot better at distance on clean steel then i do on a single point of aim paper at 100 with gassers.

    a semi auto, especially large frame one, should be thought of a slow lock time machine.

    take a slow mo video of yourself shooting quite a few rounds. each shot a different aim spot.. the overlay the video with shot placement.

    the small details matter.
     
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    B Man

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    Minuteman
    Dec 23, 2010
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    South side of Big River
    Dry fire practice, keeping the reticle on target helped my consistency more than actually shooting with live ammo. I found I was pulling when breaking shoots, right and down, something that I did not notice with live ammo.

    Also the closing eye, opening and still having the same point of aim means you are good and stable.

    Make a point to stay in the scope, holding on target until impact.

    Consistent holds too. I find shooting from different positions yields different point of impacts, getting consistency in different positions is hard. Be sure you’re doing the same thing every time

    Doing all this helped me

    Have you tried using a “lead sled” or some sort of device that removes the shooter entirely. I know for a fact a weighted lead sled is more consistent than me holding it. If it still does throws flyers like this, I would lean towards an issue with the tool not the user.
    I appreciate the advice. I have tried different techniques how I hold the rifle, different pressure pulling it, I don’t wrap my trigger hand thumb and keep it very relaxed, good follow through with my trigger finger and trigger reset, etc…. I have been trying to improve on this from various things I have read.

    But, saying that I will not say it isn’t still me. I have not done any dry fire drills with it so I will try this. Anyone can feel free to send me or post on here some great videos or things to read about improving shooting technique. I’m not above saying it’s me and not the rifle to learn. Just after this amount of time I figured I would have been more consistent and possibly the rifle. Maybe not though. Thank you all
     

    The King

    Back to the Range
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    Minuteman
  • Sep 17, 2004
    2,942
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    I’m also going to say I just got two lemon gas guns in a row from name brand mfgs.

    Not all of them shoot even close to good.
     
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    Constructor

    Private
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    Minuteman
    I’m also going to say I just got two lemon gas guns in a row from name brand mfgs.

    Not all of them shoot even close to good.
    Seems like have seen a bunch of videos talking about those high priced "professional" grade rifles not shooting very well. I would rather build my own than pay for a name.
     

    Dildobaggins

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    Minuteman
    Jun 26, 2020
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    Have you tried using a “lead sled” or some sort of device that removes the shooter entirely. I know for a fact a weighted lead sled is more consistent than me holding it. If it still does throws flyers like this, I would lean towards an issue with the tool not the user.
    Not trying to be a doucher, but wouldn't suggest doing this. Especially if the barrel is strapped in. It'll prevent natural movement of the barrel, and not allow for the recoil to go straight back, and might create more problems. Read a long article on this when I was having issues with flyers and load development. I'll try to find it. There's a reason precision bench shooters use a rear bag and a front rest, and not sleds.
     
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    C-130 Dude

    C-130 ILM
    Minuteman
    Apr 14, 2021
    45
    12
    Ga
    I went to build (armorer built it) my first AR in a 308 win for range and hunting with expectations of 1 MOA at 100 yds. But I’m only getting maybe 1.25-1.5 moa mostly, might will avg 1.25 moa.
    I spec’d it out with the guy and had it built. In the beginning it was a nightmare hitting 2-3 MOA with a certain manufacturer’s barrel but they warrantied it and after trying two more we went another route and I had a Rainer UltraMatch Mod2 20” installed. Gun shoots better but still is not consistent. I know they are harder to shoot according to what folks say so I installed a Ultradyne Apollo S brake on it to see if it would help tame it down (not that recoil is bad at all), still the same. No worse, no better. This is with various Factory Match loads, it favors FGMM 168’s.
    Hand loads I have used 125 NBT with TAC & XBR 8208, 168 & 178 eldm’s with varget & TAC.
    With all of them after finding what it liked I would get .5-.7” 5 shot groups then load up some more to verify and it would shoot 1-1.5” sometimes 1.75” at 100 yards. Next group might go back sub MOA. Even with the FGMM.

    Gun is
    Aero upper and lower
    Lapped receiver
    Bedded barrel extension
    Aero Atlas S one handguard
    Rainer Ultramatch mod 2 20” barrel
    Seekins Adjustable gas block
    Elf Match Pro lock trigger
    FAB Raps butt stock
    BA nitride BCG
    Midwest 20 moa mount
    Optika 6 scope

    I did try another proven scope as well to make sure I didn’t get a bad scope. Same thing. Gun wants to shoot but then goes a little wild and just has me about to pull my hair out.

    So my question, are they able to shoot an honest consistent sub MOA or are folks just cherry picking there groups they share with there AR 308’s like I could do with this one and I am probably getting about all I can without having craddock or someone spin me a barrel?

    Pictures for reference of what it has done.View attachment 7892997View attachment 7892999View attachment 7893001View attachment 7893002View attachment 7893003
    I've run large frames for a long time. Considering your build list, 2 things come to mind. Your trigger and/or trigger technique. And your shooting speed. Barrel getting hot? The FGMM 168 is OK, but I've had more luck with the 175s. My go to is 175s, IMR4064//43.1gn, CCI 34. Keep at it. Practice, practice, practice.
     

    BKKSW

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    Minuteman
    Mar 2, 2017
    37
    14
    Find a builder who guarantees their gas guns to be MOA. Or borrow one. Use it as a benchmark to verify you and other gas guns. Work from there.
     

    btuse

    Private
    Minuteman
    May 21, 2020
    46
    5
    I appreciate the advice. I have tried different techniques how I hold the rifle, different pressure pulling it, I don’t wrap my trigger hand thumb and keep it very relaxed, good follow through with my trigger finger and trigger reset, etc…. I have been trying to improve on this from various things I have read.

    But, saying that I will not say it isn’t still me. I have not done any dry fire drills with it so I will try this. Anyone can feel free to send me or post on here some great videos or things to read about improving shooting technique. I’m not above saying it’s me and not the rifle to learn. Just after this amount of time I figured I would have been more consistent and possibly the rifle. Maybe not though. Thank you all
    Do you hold the trigger at reset and load the bipod, both while staying on the glass? This has helped several friends tighten up a little. I had same scenario with a similar rig, and converted to 65cm. It’s a simple barrel swap. I think I picked up a 22” B.A.D. for $250, game changer.
     

    Frank Green

    Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 27, 2006
    1,805
    3,150
    wisconsin
    www.bartleinbarrels.com
    Lot's of great comments but I will only focus on two...

    As has been mentioned....ammo...try a different lot etc...

    Barrel...how does it clean? Are you getting a lot of copper fouling out of it? If so...that's one thing to look at.

    Check the muzzle crown for any damage.

    How was the barrel made? If it's a button made barrel and the muzzle is threaded it is common for the bores to open up on button barrels. Last place you want to see the bore get looser/bigger is at the muzzles crown. If it opened up....you can't fix it. Other than to cut it off the threads and recrown it but I wouldn't thread the muzzle again.

    Shoot it with out the muzzle brake or thread protector on it. If these are loose it will cause harmonic/vibration issues and cause accuracy issues as well.

    If the muzzle brake is screwed on to tight...you can also distort the bore and again if the bore is distorted right at the muzzles crown...it will cause accuracy issues.

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels