Am I picking nits?
- Thread starter Chiller
- Start date
Re: Am I picking nits?
German is my friend. I heard him describing this to another shooter when I was in Phoenix a few weeks ago. If German says there is something to it, then rest assured there is something to it. Even though he is an attorney by trade he approaches shooting and reloading as an engineer/scientist actually looking at cause and affect, not just anecdote.
That said, I have no intention of adding this to my reloading process, but if for some reason I run into accuracy issues I'll most certainly consider this.
German is my friend. I heard him describing this to another shooter when I was in Phoenix a few weeks ago. If German says there is something to it, then rest assured there is something to it. Even though he is an attorney by trade he approaches shooting and reloading as an engineer/scientist actually looking at cause and affect, not just anecdote.
That said, I have no intention of adding this to my reloading process, but if for some reason I run into accuracy issues I'll most certainly consider this.
Re: Am I picking nits?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">German is my friend. I heard him describing this to another shooter when I was in Phoenix a few weeks ago. If German says there is something to it, then rest assured there is something to it. Even though he is an attorney by trade he approaches shooting and reloading as an engineer/scientist actually looking at cause and affect, not just anecdote.
That said, I have no intention of adding this to my reloading process, but if for some reason I run into accuracy issues I'll most certainly consider this. </div></div>
Noticed your photo at the bottom.
Would be curious to hear your loading process.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">German is my friend. I heard him describing this to another shooter when I was in Phoenix a few weeks ago. If German says there is something to it, then rest assured there is something to it. Even though he is an attorney by trade he approaches shooting and reloading as an engineer/scientist actually looking at cause and affect, not just anecdote.
That said, I have no intention of adding this to my reloading process, but if for some reason I run into accuracy issues I'll most certainly consider this. </div></div>
Noticed your photo at the bottom.
Would be curious to hear your loading process.
Re: Am I picking nits?
Chiller
Can't argue with results. However, IMHO, if you are shooting for the smallest possible groups, then you have to do that in order to give you the edge against competitors. Or, if you have lots of time on your hand and would like to fiddle around with case preppings, then the answer is yes. If I were the shooter I can't speak for the author of the article, I am not sure if I would gain that extra improvement, because the incremental change in accuracy is smaller than my personal error in accuracy as a shooter, if that makes sense.
Now for certain type of brass, and I am talking namely 50 BMG, because of its lack of uniformity, I think a little extra time is needed to prep them so that you can improve the accuracy.
Chiller
Can't argue with results. However, IMHO, if you are shooting for the smallest possible groups, then you have to do that in order to give you the edge against competitors. Or, if you have lots of time on your hand and would like to fiddle around with case preppings, then the answer is yes. If I were the shooter I can't speak for the author of the article, I am not sure if I would gain that extra improvement, because the incremental change in accuracy is smaller than my personal error in accuracy as a shooter, if that makes sense.
Now for certain type of brass, and I am talking namely 50 BMG, because of its lack of uniformity, I think a little extra time is needed to prep them so that you can improve the accuracy.
Re: Am I picking nits?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chiller
Can't argue with results. However, IMHO, if you are shooting for the smallest possible groups, then you have to do that in order to give you the edge against competitors. Or, if you have lots of time on your hand and would like to fiddle around with case preppings, then the answer is yes. If I were the shooter I can't speak for the author of the article, I am not sure if I would gain that extra improvement, because the incremental change in accuracy is smaller than my personal error in accuracy as a shooter, if that makes sense.
Now for certain type of brass, and I am talking namely 50 BMG, because of its lack of uniformity, I think a little extra time is needed to prep them so that you can improve the accuracy. </div></div>
Read through the article again and perhaps I am not understanding things or I am once again getting my head wrapped around the axel.
From what I read of the article it is merely a sequence and opposed to an additional step.
• Neck sizing die
• Full Length die
As opposed to
• Full length
• Neck sizing
to steal a quote from Terry Cross, "little things matter at distance"
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DesertHK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chiller
Can't argue with results. However, IMHO, if you are shooting for the smallest possible groups, then you have to do that in order to give you the edge against competitors. Or, if you have lots of time on your hand and would like to fiddle around with case preppings, then the answer is yes. If I were the shooter I can't speak for the author of the article, I am not sure if I would gain that extra improvement, because the incremental change in accuracy is smaller than my personal error in accuracy as a shooter, if that makes sense.
Now for certain type of brass, and I am talking namely 50 BMG, because of its lack of uniformity, I think a little extra time is needed to prep them so that you can improve the accuracy. </div></div>
Read through the article again and perhaps I am not understanding things or I am once again getting my head wrapped around the axel.
From what I read of the article it is merely a sequence and opposed to an additional step.
• Neck sizing die
• Full Length die
As opposed to
• Full length
• Neck sizing
to steal a quote from Terry Cross, "little things matter at distance"
Re: Am I picking nits?
Interesting read. This wouldn't add a step to my .308 loading regime because I use a body die first then a neck die. Although, it would require purchasing a FL bushing die, which makes it not really worth the effort for smacking steel purposes. May be something to consider if Chiller beats me at the next F class though...
Interesting read. This wouldn't add a step to my .308 loading regime because I use a body die first then a neck die. Although, it would require purchasing a FL bushing die, which makes it not really worth the effort for smacking steel purposes. May be something to consider if Chiller beats me at the next F class though...
Re: Am I picking nits?
The artical is very interesting. This is the method I use in my reloading regimine, except that I use the FL competition sizer twice with two different bushings (0.006 different in size).
I think what this shows is that sizing with the body fully supported has an inherent advantage in concentricity. It goes on to show that another sizing on a concentric case where the case is not well supported can harm the concentricty.
{Also note: I clean, relube, and rotate the sliding body in the die when switching bushings.}
The artical is very interesting. This is the method I use in my reloading regimine, except that I use the FL competition sizer twice with two different bushings (0.006 different in size).
I think what this shows is that sizing with the body fully supported has an inherent advantage in concentricity. It goes on to show that another sizing on a concentric case where the case is not well supported can harm the concentricty.
{Also note: I clean, relube, and rotate the sliding body in the die when switching bushings.}
Re: Am I picking nits?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting read. This wouldn't add a step to my .308 loading regime because I use a body die first then a neck die. Although, it would require purchasing a FL bushing die, which makes it not really worth the effort for smacking steel purposes. May be something to consider if Chiller beats me at the next F class though... </div></div>
What was your final score? Best string?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting read. This wouldn't add a step to my .308 loading regime because I use a body die first then a neck die. Although, it would require purchasing a FL bushing die, which makes it not really worth the effort for smacking steel purposes. May be something to consider if Chiller beats me at the next F class though... </div></div>
What was your final score? Best string?
Re: Am I picking nits?
Lets assume we prep the brass first, meaning we run it through the sizing process, and clean the pockets (if fired brass), then do the trimming and neck turning.
So thats one stroke of the press, but lets put the brass in a progressive loader, stick in the two sizing dies, (FL and Neck sizing), we'd get a finished product without the additional steps.
Why wouldnt this work if one wanted to try it w/out doubling the sizing time???
Just asking, I dont know myself.
Lets assume we prep the brass first, meaning we run it through the sizing process, and clean the pockets (if fired brass), then do the trimming and neck turning.
So thats one stroke of the press, but lets put the brass in a progressive loader, stick in the two sizing dies, (FL and Neck sizing), we'd get a finished product without the additional steps.
Why wouldnt this work if one wanted to try it w/out doubling the sizing time???
Just asking, I dont know myself.
Re: Am I picking nits?
My current process after firing
• Lee Universal decapping die to drop primer
• SS brass cleaning
• Full Length size
• Neck Size
• Prime
• Powder
• Pill
Am I taking too many steps from a tactical basis?
My current process after firing
• Lee Universal decapping die to drop primer
• SS brass cleaning
• Full Length size
• Neck Size
• Prime
• Powder
• Pill
Am I taking too many steps from a tactical basis?
Re: Am I picking nits?
You could knock out the deprime, neck size and full length size down to 1 step with a Redding Type S Full Length Neck sizing die.
You could knock out the deprime, neck size and full length size down to 1 step with a Redding Type S Full Length Neck sizing die.
Re: Am I picking nits?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could knock out the deprime, neck size and full length size down to 1 step with a Redding Type S Full Length Neck sizing die. </div></div>
The question I have is that in that I use the SS method I want to make sure my brass is clean before I begin to work with it. IT would seem to extend the life of the dies?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could knock out the deprime, neck size and full length size down to 1 step with a Redding Type S Full Length Neck sizing die. </div></div>
The question I have is that in that I use the SS method I want to make sure my brass is clean before I begin to work with it. IT would seem to extend the life of the dies?
Re: Am I picking nits?
Chiller, after firing I do this:
tumble
FL size once. I was doing what the author described in a 2 step size but stopped as it caused more runout for me and I try to minimize my steps while maintaining accuracy.
tumble off lube
trim, chamfer,deburr
clean PP(uniform if needed)
Prime
Charge
Seat
My ammo is pretty consistent. I have an accuracy standard that I try to keep(1/3 moa or better) if a load doesn't meet this requirement then I keep working till it does. I'm also not trying to have a load and process to get me into the teens, I've had groups like that but they are not the norm, getting that nit picky for a tac gun is more time than I want to spend. I'm no expert but I get expert advice
Chiller, after firing I do this:
tumble
FL size once. I was doing what the author described in a 2 step size but stopped as it caused more runout for me and I try to minimize my steps while maintaining accuracy.
tumble off lube
trim, chamfer,deburr
clean PP(uniform if needed)
Prime
Charge
Seat
My ammo is pretty consistent. I have an accuracy standard that I try to keep(1/3 moa or better) if a load doesn't meet this requirement then I keep working till it does. I'm also not trying to have a load and process to get me into the teens, I've had groups like that but they are not the norm, getting that nit picky for a tac gun is more time than I want to spend. I'm no expert but I get expert advice
Re: Am I picking nits?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The artical is very interesting. This is the method I use in my reloading regimine, except that I use the FL competition sizer twice with two different bushings (0.006 different in size).
I think what this shows is that sizing with the body fully supported has an inherent advantage in concentricity. It goes on to show that another sizing on a concentric case where the case is not well supported can harm the concentricty.
{Also note: I clean, relube, and rotate the sliding body in </div></div>
I have some custom BMG dies that fully supports the neck when sizing. The maker runs a large over sized decaping rod(Speced to chamber neck dia) You have to neck turn to 20thous for clearance or you will stick the round in the die when it starts sizing the neck. With this die you also bottom it out against the shell holder to set your head space(which is done by shell houlders and not adjusting the die
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The artical is very interesting. This is the method I use in my reloading regimine, except that I use the FL competition sizer twice with two different bushings (0.006 different in size).
I think what this shows is that sizing with the body fully supported has an inherent advantage in concentricity. It goes on to show that another sizing on a concentric case where the case is not well supported can harm the concentricty.
{Also note: I clean, relube, and rotate the sliding body in </div></div>
I have some custom BMG dies that fully supports the neck when sizing. The maker runs a large over sized decaping rod(Speced to chamber neck dia) You have to neck turn to 20thous for clearance or you will stick the round in the die when it starts sizing the neck. With this die you also bottom it out against the shell holder to set your head space(which is done by shell houlders and not adjusting the die
Re: Am I picking nits?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My current process after firing
• Lee Universal decapping die to drop primer
• SS brass cleaning
• Full Length size
• Neck Size
• Prime
• Powder
• Pill
Am I taking too many steps from a tactical basis?
</div></div>
Interesting - you told me on the phone you used a body die in step 3, not a FL die. Which is it Hugh?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My current process after firing
• Lee Universal decapping die to drop primer
• SS brass cleaning
• Full Length size
• Neck Size
• Prime
• Powder
• Pill
Am I taking too many steps from a tactical basis?
</div></div>
Interesting - you told me on the phone you used a body die in step 3, not a FL die. Which is it Hugh?
Re: Am I picking nits?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My current process after firing
• Lee Universal decapping die to drop primer
• SS brass cleaning
• Full Length size
• Neck Size
• Prime
• Powder
• Pill
Am I taking too many steps from a tactical basis?
</div></div>
Interesting - you told me on the phone you used a body die in step 3, not a FL die. Which is it Hugh? </div></div>
Sorry Sir, it is a Body Die not a FL Die
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My current process after firing
• Lee Universal decapping die to drop primer
• SS brass cleaning
• Full Length size
• Neck Size
• Prime
• Powder
• Pill
Am I taking too many steps from a tactical basis?
</div></div>
Interesting - you told me on the phone you used a body die in step 3, not a FL die. Which is it Hugh? </div></div>
Sorry Sir, it is a Body Die not a FL Die
Re: Am I picking nits?
I'll always defer to shooter of Leo's pedigree, but I usually run the following steps:
1) FL re-size/deprime with expander ball pulled. All dies are set to bump shoulders .002".
2) SS Clean
3) trim, chamfer, deburr as necessary
4) prime
5) throw powder
6) seat
7) wash, rinse, repeat
It took me a long time to get all of these steps down, and to fully understand what in the hell I was doing. Leo was instrumental in helping me to do things right. Anything more, on a "tactical" rifle, for me, seems like I am wasting effort.
I'll always defer to shooter of Leo's pedigree, but I usually run the following steps:
1) FL re-size/deprime with expander ball pulled. All dies are set to bump shoulders .002".
2) SS Clean
3) trim, chamfer, deburr as necessary
4) prime
5) throw powder
6) seat
7) wash, rinse, repeat
It took me a long time to get all of these steps down, and to fully understand what in the hell I was doing. Leo was instrumental in helping me to do things right. Anything more, on a "tactical" rifle, for me, seems like I am wasting effort.
Re: Am I picking nits?
As I said in another thread, I run a 550b and bought an extra toolhead, a second bushing neck sizing die and a body die recently for my 223 sizing chores. In the seating station (#3), I run the body die, in the crimping (#4) station, I run the first neck sizing die with a larger (.249" or .250") TiNi bushing and no decapping stem. In station #1, I finally have the second neck sizing die, with carbide expander ball and my final X, Y or Z bushing.
I am debating whether to put the carbide expander ball in station 3, without the decapping pin and smoothing out the (often) dinged in AR fired brass, first. It shouldn't be hard to do, as I can back the stem up into the locking piece and use their undersized retaining pin to hold the expander in place.
I use this setup for my .308 bolt gun ammo, sans expander ball and things work smoothly, giving me three steps with one pull of the handle.
I recently bought a Bersin tool for my 7 RemMag loads and will get an extra tool body for my 308 and 223 ammo. This tool has a Swiss made, .01mm/.0004" dial gage which accurately measures runout to four places. Unlike standard concentricity gages, this tool then allows one to nudge the bullet back in the opposite direction of the side with the lowest measurement, slightly bending the bullet/neck interface, for little to no runout.
While I was initially 'learning' this tool, I practiced on some 7 RM ammo I had, first a box of 45 rounds that I loaded with some Hornady New Dimension dies with inline seater. The runout on these was mostly between .004"-.008", with some being below .004", but one I measured was at .011". This bullet would have been keyholing before it ever hit the lands!
Next, I had a box that I had loaded up last year with my new Redding body die, neck bushing die and competition inline seating die and the runout on these 50+ rounds was far lower than the box made using the standard dies.
My chosen 'level of acceptance' is a spread of no more than three places, which equates to a total spread of .0012", or .0006" up, or down, so well under .002" total. For the initial box that I use for fouling shots, I went with a spread of 4 places, so .0016" total--still under .002".
Out of a batch of 20, I didn't need to bump the bullet at all. For the other 15 in the target grade batch, runout never was over say .005" and most were between .002" and .004".
It seems to me, that the Redding dies are better at eliminating runout from the onset, but are by no means perfect.
It's an interesting precision tool that lets one correct the problem after the fact. It took me 15 minutes to go through that batch of 20, correcting 15 of them. Bersin claims 20 rounds in 5 minutes, is all it should take.
The other batch done with the Redding dies was quite similar, but I was learning how to use the Bersin and wasn't taking notes.
Chris
As I said in another thread, I run a 550b and bought an extra toolhead, a second bushing neck sizing die and a body die recently for my 223 sizing chores. In the seating station (#3), I run the body die, in the crimping (#4) station, I run the first neck sizing die with a larger (.249" or .250") TiNi bushing and no decapping stem. In station #1, I finally have the second neck sizing die, with carbide expander ball and my final X, Y or Z bushing.
I am debating whether to put the carbide expander ball in station 3, without the decapping pin and smoothing out the (often) dinged in AR fired brass, first. It shouldn't be hard to do, as I can back the stem up into the locking piece and use their undersized retaining pin to hold the expander in place.
I use this setup for my .308 bolt gun ammo, sans expander ball and things work smoothly, giving me three steps with one pull of the handle.
I recently bought a Bersin tool for my 7 RemMag loads and will get an extra tool body for my 308 and 223 ammo. This tool has a Swiss made, .01mm/.0004" dial gage which accurately measures runout to four places. Unlike standard concentricity gages, this tool then allows one to nudge the bullet back in the opposite direction of the side with the lowest measurement, slightly bending the bullet/neck interface, for little to no runout.
While I was initially 'learning' this tool, I practiced on some 7 RM ammo I had, first a box of 45 rounds that I loaded with some Hornady New Dimension dies with inline seater. The runout on these was mostly between .004"-.008", with some being below .004", but one I measured was at .011". This bullet would have been keyholing before it ever hit the lands!
Next, I had a box that I had loaded up last year with my new Redding body die, neck bushing die and competition inline seating die and the runout on these 50+ rounds was far lower than the box made using the standard dies.
My chosen 'level of acceptance' is a spread of no more than three places, which equates to a total spread of .0012", or .0006" up, or down, so well under .002" total. For the initial box that I use for fouling shots, I went with a spread of 4 places, so .0016" total--still under .002".
Out of a batch of 20, I didn't need to bump the bullet at all. For the other 15 in the target grade batch, runout never was over say .005" and most were between .002" and .004".
It seems to me, that the Redding dies are better at eliminating runout from the onset, but are by no means perfect.
It's an interesting precision tool that lets one correct the problem after the fact. It took me 15 minutes to go through that batch of 20, correcting 15 of them. Bersin claims 20 rounds in 5 minutes, is all it should take.
The other batch done with the Redding dies was quite similar, but I was learning how to use the Bersin and wasn't taking notes.
Chris
