Analog Navigation in Today's Military

[Guest]

With the exposure of the Stuxnet virus, and I'm sure there are others, I am wondering how our military would fare without GPS and computer aided systems.

It doesn't seem that outlandish that a formidable opponent in a global conflict could effectively render our satellites inoperable.

Do they still teach the Navy folks how to navigate the old school way?
What about modern tanks, and other heavy armor?
What else could shut down with computer and GPS problems?

 

[270grdeerbullet]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

This is something that i too have wondered about as well as how well could our forces operate if they could render our communications systems in operable. I really don't have a good idea of how these systems are set up but it would be nice if we could be enlightened on the subject.

 

[rero360]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

Give me a map and a compass and I'm golden, one of the benefits of 11B and 13F training, they really drill that into you hard, the first phase of 13F reclass was nothing but land nav with the basics.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do they still teach the Navy folks how to navigate the old school way?</div></div>

I don't think that they are teaching celestial navigation using a sextant to middies at the Naval Academy any more. But there are still EMs in the Navy who know how. See:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usnavynvns/5247259968/

However, I expect not many of them know how to reduce sights without a computer of some sort. I hope they still carry the tables, though, and could learn how if they had to.

The Air Force was still teaching celestial navigation to undergraduate navigation students in 2009.

 

[High Binder]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Do they still teach the Navy folks how to navigate the old school way? </div></div>

Wasn't part of my basic...

 

[cmh2007]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

as far as i have been told back in school at Texas Maritime, the navy still take a celestial fix at dawn and dusk.

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

I don't think it would render anyone useless, but it sure the hell would slow everyone down. It's easy to get a location if you have two known points that you can locate on a map. I do think it would suck donkey balls to try to do that in just a flat barren dessert though.

 

[cmh2007]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

i used to beable to take a celestial fix and plot it in about 30 minutes. then run that out as a running fix and you have your position. it wouldnt slow things down too much

 

[shark0311]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do they still teach the Navy folks how to navigate the old school way?</div></div>

I don't think that they are teaching celestial navigation using a sextant to middies at the Naval Academy any more. But there are still EMs in the Navy who know how. See:

</div></div>

I know that it is still taught at the Merchant Marine Academy.

 

[Maggot]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

Another take on this idea....Ive read that a high altitude nuke burst will take out all the solid state equipment within 1000 miles.....and that the major airports still use vacuum tubes because they are not suceptable to that. I know RRussia still produces a lot of tubes, and Ive heard that we have millions stashed away. They certainly are preferable in audio reproduction. Any truth tho that...how about in the military?

 

[shark0311]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

Pilots can and due navigate without GPS on a regular basis, I believe that tanks do not require GPS for their firing solutions, artillery and mortars do not need gps and the infantry can use a map and compass (just don't let the boot LT do the navigating). GPS just makes it easier but it is not in anyway necessary to fight an effective war. EMP is not a game changer it is more like a hiccup.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

Got the chance to shoot with an E-6 type who was a Basic Infantry skills Instructor. He had multiple tours in both Iraq and Afganistan and his last unit was Airborne.

He had to admit due to the operational tempo basic skills had fallen by the wayside. He had a few funny stories on his having to relearn the basics in land nav.

His accessment was in threater units relied a great deal on electronics and would be at a loss if they suddenly disappeared.

He also said the Mission load was such that training was almost nonexistant while in country. The physical wear and tear from continous patrols and manning outposts resulted in shortcuts that are now SOP.

I think soldiers are human and if they are not pushed to maintain perishable skills those skills are lost.

I wonder how many experts in the tactical comp world would scream if their toys were taken away at the start of a match without prior warning? How many would insist there is no way the electronics would fail and its unfair to force them to be turned off?

 

[stefan73]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

Compass, map and protractor and I'm good.
Heck I've even made my own protractor (pretty easy to do).


GPS WTF is that?

GPS is only good until the batteries run out while on a patrol. Its only good when you have one that works, and it is good for confirming your excellence but not for holding in your hand and walking around on a patrol imo.

I remember when I was mech having a big map board on the top of my Bradley. A big map board in my HMMWV.

Always have redundancy in systems!

 

[shark0311]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

A good number of people fail difficult land nav courses but you only really need 1 in 13 that can navigate. It's not an ideal situation but it works.

 

[maxpower220]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

As a flight instructor in the Navy, we teach students basic navigation as standard skills. The students get an introduction to GPS approaches but there is no requirement for them in training. We do not teach CelNav at this level. Only a few aircraft in the fleet have the equipment to do CelNav, but we (in the E-6) stopped teaching CelNav about 2000.

As part of survival training, all aviators get a basic class on land navigation using a compass.

However, with loss of GPS signals, many of our "smart" weapons have degraded modes and will lose some effectiveness. You should be more worried about civilian air traffic. If GPS is degraded, many new planes won't be able to function in some areas.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

Actually, the military uses land nav courses as part of a selection process for one thing or another, to see if a person who is fatigued and sleep deprived can still think on his feet. The Marine Corp Scout/Sniper school, Delta, and SAS - both British and Australian - are among those who do that. They aren't the only ones.

It also sorts out people who don't have the dedication and discipline to learn and maintain skill sets.

But even if you have a GPS to tell you where you are, you still need the ability to read a topographic map or a marine chart.

Knowing the direct route from starting point to destination will not ensure that you can get there on that route.

A GPS will happily lead you over a cliff - or, in the case of marine navigation, aground in water too shallow to float your boat.

So, even if you have a GPS with mapping capability, like the DeLorme PN60 I use currently, you still better be able to read a map or a chart.

 

[dohnuts58]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

all U.S. Marines are still taught land nav

 

[doc76251]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

Ya'll would be surprised at WHO my Boy Scout Troop has taught land nav skills to. It started out as a dig in the ribs, but they got invited back to TEACH.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Switchblade]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

You want to graduate any Army school, you will pass a map and compass Land NAv course. Of course if you are that overweight black girl or the hootchie with the stretchmarked boobs, you will have three or four E-7's, E6P's and the other big SUV drivers helping you at every turn to make sure you pass and get that next promotion

 

[dmg308]

Re: Analog Navigation in Today's Military

I know you still need compass, map skills to get a capt license from the Coast guard.You also need to know how to calculate set and drift.