When looking for an angle indicator for the rifle what is better to get, the device that shows angles or cosine?
Thanks
R.
Thanks
R.
- Thread starter rickp
- Start date
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
Hey Rick, how's it going?
http://weww.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1536261&page=1
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2181092
Hey Rick, how's it going?
http://weww.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1536261&page=1
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2181092
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
Hey Graham, same soup different bowl.
So you're suggesting angles not cosines? That's what I was thinking too. What's does one do that the other does not and visa versa?
Hey Graham, same soup different bowl.
So you're suggesting angles not cosines? That's what I was thinking too. What's does one do that the other does not and visa versa?
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
I hear what you're saying.
What I'm actually doing is getting a level, with the option of being able to add an ACI or an ADI. But when I do, I would like to know which is preferred and why?
R.
I hear what you're saying.
What I'm actually doing is getting a level, with the option of being able to add an ACI or an ADI. But when I do, I would like to know which is preferred and why?
R.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
Ahhh.... bubble levels: A whole different argument.
I am not a fan of them, except for ELR. Frank and Jacob agree with me. But other people whom I also respect very highly, like CoryT and Caylen, have told me the opposite.
http://weww.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2812388&page=1
Ahhh.... bubble levels: A whole different argument.
I am not a fan of them, except for ELR. Frank and Jacob agree with me. But other people whom I also respect very highly, like CoryT and Caylen, have told me the opposite.
http://weww.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2812388&page=1
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
At this point I got the level thing covered, I'm still looking for info on whats preferred the ACI or ADI?
At this point I got the level thing covered, I'm still looking for info on whats preferred the ACI or ADI?
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I liked angles. But I'm suggeting that in almost three years mounted on the rifle I never needed the darn thing. I liked angles because one simply inputs the angle into the ballistics program. </div></div>
yup, its easier to just input the angle into a program. But if your not using a program and your using a chart or some printout then cosine is better because you can just multiply the cosine by your drop.
but you can just take the ten dollar calculator and input the angle hit cosine ( in degree mode) and it will give you the cosine , then multiply that by your drop. The horus indicator has both cosine and angle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I liked angles. But I'm suggeting that in almost three years mounted on the rifle I never needed the darn thing. I liked angles because one simply inputs the angle into the ballistics program. </div></div>
yup, its easier to just input the angle into a program. But if your not using a program and your using a chart or some printout then cosine is better because you can just multiply the cosine by your drop.
but you can just take the ten dollar calculator and input the angle hit cosine ( in degree mode) and it will give you the cosine , then multiply that by your drop. The horus indicator has both cosine and angle.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
I've used both and I prefer the cosine version. Multiply the cosine to your dope and shoot.
Either is hands down better than the protractor method. It's super time consuming and a pain in the ass if your hands are frozen or there are high winds.
I've used both and I prefer the cosine version. Multiply the cosine to your dope and shoot.
Either is hands down better than the protractor method. It's super time consuming and a pain in the ass if your hands are frozen or there are high winds.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
At longer distances, multiplying the actual range to the target by the cosine of the angle may not be sufficiently accurate. A better method is to multiply the dope for the actual distance by the cosine. See:
Inclined Fire Explained - Sierra External Ballistics.
At longer distances, multiplying the actual range to the target by the cosine of the angle may not be sufficiently accurate. A better method is to multiply the dope for the actual distance by the cosine. See:
Inclined Fire Explained - Sierra External Ballistics.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
If you don't use a PDA, but use print dope, having the cosine number immediately available on an ACI may help implement the Improved Rifleman's Rule - multiplying your actual dope for a specific range by the cosine of the angle:
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/article1.html
If you don't use a PDA, but use print dope, having the cosine number immediately available on an ACI may help implement the Improved Rifleman's Rule - multiplying your actual dope for a specific range by the cosine of the angle:
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/article1.html
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
I use Leica 1600 Rangemaster and it shows the angle as well, which I enter into my Kestrel w Horus ATrag. But I am planning to mount an ACI on my rifle to have a non-battery option if technology goes belly up.
I use Leica 1600 Rangemaster and it shows the angle as well, which I enter into my Kestrel w Horus ATrag. But I am planning to mount an ACI on my rifle to have a non-battery option if technology goes belly up.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
Tag for later.
Tag for later.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
I prefer the cosine version , less maths .cosine by dope.simple
I prefer the cosine version , less maths .cosine by dope.simple
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
Good documents guys. thanks
Another question along these lines. If one uses angles, then is there a simple equation that one can do in the field/range to get the cosine?
R.
Good documents guys. thanks
Another question along these lines. If one uses angles, then is there a simple equation that one can do in the field/range to get the cosine?
R.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
pythagorean triangle , divide the hyp by adj , using the unit circle we can remmeber that 60degree cosine is 1/2
if you draw a triangle with the hyp of 1000 ( 1000y) and an adj leg of 500 (500y), you'll see you have a 60 degree angle , divide hyp/adj to find the angle.
or you can do it the opposite way , find the cosine of the angle and multiply that by your hyp, you could even backtrack your elevation through this method.
but , i would just use a calculator , input whatever angle your getting then hit cosine when your calculator is in degree mode and that will give you the number you need to multiply by your drop or distance.
or you can just use a ballisitics program.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/sincos.html]http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/sincos.html[/url]
pythagorean triangle , divide the hyp by adj , using the unit circle we can remmeber that 60degree cosine is 1/2
if you draw a triangle with the hyp of 1000 ( 1000y) and an adj leg of 500 (500y), you'll see you have a 60 degree angle , divide hyp/adj to find the angle.
or you can do it the opposite way , find the cosine of the angle and multiply that by your hyp, you could even backtrack your elevation through this method.
but , i would just use a calculator , input whatever angle your getting then hit cosine when your calculator is in degree mode and that will give you the number you need to multiply by your drop or distance.
or you can just use a ballisitics program.
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/sincos.html]http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/sincos.html[/url]
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
You can also do that calculation much faster with a Mildot Master than a calculator.
You can also do that calculation much faster with a Mildot Master than a calculator.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
The chart I posted is a quick reference tool that already has the math done for me, that in combination with known/proven drop, works quite well for the type of shooting I'm prone to do, here lately....steel on our 1200 yard range, center mass on a groundhog or coyote, or hitting the kill zone on a whitetail. Where I live you are more prone to an angular shot, than not. So it's nothing more than an aid to implementing the rifleman's rule. The hardest part about it, which isn't, is rounding up, or down, as needed, or splitting the difference when you hit numbers in the middle.
For those not following me yet an example from this last summer after first cutting; I range a groundhog in the middle of my lower alfalfa field, from up here on the knob, at 590 yards. The angle measured is 36 degrees from level. A quick look at the chart using 35 degrees and a line of sight range of 600 yards gives me a corrected range of 491 yards. Looking at my dope for the rifle/load I'm using I need 5.4 MOA up to make the shot. I'll dial 5.5, wait for the groundhog to stand up, hold center mass, and hit him just south of where the neck joins the body. Take it for what it's worth but it works for me.
The chart I posted is a quick reference tool that already has the math done for me, that in combination with known/proven drop, works quite well for the type of shooting I'm prone to do, here lately....steel on our 1200 yard range, center mass on a groundhog or coyote, or hitting the kill zone on a whitetail. Where I live you are more prone to an angular shot, than not. So it's nothing more than an aid to implementing the rifleman's rule. The hardest part about it, which isn't, is rounding up, or down, as needed, or splitting the difference when you hit numbers in the middle.
For those not following me yet an example from this last summer after first cutting; I range a groundhog in the middle of my lower alfalfa field, from up here on the knob, at 590 yards. The angle measured is 36 degrees from level. A quick look at the chart using 35 degrees and a line of sight range of 600 yards gives me a corrected range of 491 yards. Looking at my dope for the rifle/load I'm using I need 5.4 MOA up to make the shot. I'll dial 5.5, wait for the groundhog to stand up, hold center mass, and hit him just south of where the neck joins the body. Take it for what it's worth but it works for me.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bugaboo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am planning to mount an ACI on my rifle to have a non-battery option if technology goes belly up.</div></div>
I am not going to make it sound like I am against technology. But I think being overly dependent on electronics to do these calculations is a bad plan.
But then again the reason I shoot is probably not a substitute for Starbucks, Wine parties and cheese tasting.
I feel a shooter should have all the tools to make these calculations manually, charts, manual tools, gauges, etc.
Sometimes I think folks would be lost if the cant get their kestrel and pda going.
Now, if you have mastered the manual method and use electronics as a matter of convenience, all be it from me to get in your way.
I prefer an Angle Tool that gives me cosine. I think its more refined for quicker manual calculations
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bugaboo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am planning to mount an ACI on my rifle to have a non-battery option if technology goes belly up.</div></div>
I am not going to make it sound like I am against technology. But I think being overly dependent on electronics to do these calculations is a bad plan.
But then again the reason I shoot is probably not a substitute for Starbucks, Wine parties and cheese tasting.
I feel a shooter should have all the tools to make these calculations manually, charts, manual tools, gauges, etc.
Sometimes I think folks would be lost if the cant get their kestrel and pda going.
Now, if you have mastered the manual method and use electronics as a matter of convenience, all be it from me to get in your way.
I prefer an Angle Tool that gives me cosine. I think its more refined for quicker manual calculations
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
Get yourself a protractor, string, weight and a cosine cheat sheet. That's how I taught myself, its basically a slop doper but cheaper. I use the improved riflemen rule to dope angles. VJJ hooked me up with a Badger ACI mount and I will be heading up the mountain and testing it out soon.
Get yourself a protractor, string, weight and a cosine cheat sheet. That's how I taught myself, its basically a slop doper but cheaper. I use the improved riflemen rule to dope angles. VJJ hooked me up with a Badger ACI mount and I will be heading up the mountain and testing it out soon.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
Man Tripwire you do shoot in some steep country! I like the chart idea. It's been
dropped on my desktop. Hope you didn't copyright it.
Man Tripwire you do shoot in some steep country! I like the chart idea. It's been
dropped on my desktop. Hope you didn't copyright it.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
Another question for you guys along these lines. A level has 2 thin lines left and right of the bubble. Anyone know how many deg. it is when the line cuts the bubble in half and when the bubble is on the other side of the line?
R.
Another question for you guys along these lines. A level has 2 thin lines left and right of the bubble. Anyone know how many deg. it is when the line cuts the bubble in half and when the bubble is on the other side of the line?
R.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
I sell way more cosine than angle indicators. Most guys say cosine is easier to use.
I sell way more cosine than angle indicators. Most guys say cosine is easier to use.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigwheeler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Man Tripwire you do shoot in some steep country! I like the chart idea. It's been
dropped on my desktop. Hope you didn't copyright it. </div></div>
We do have a few hills around here in Appalachia.
Yeah, it's overkill, but it's solid info.
Help yourselves, that's what it's for.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bigwheeler</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Man Tripwire you do shoot in some steep country! I like the chart idea. It's been
dropped on my desktop. Hope you didn't copyright it.
We do have a few hills around here in Appalachia.
Yeah, it's overkill, but it's solid info.
Help yourselves, that's what it's for.....
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
There are many differy ways to find angles like JFComfort posted, along ACI's and ballistic computers. I like the ACI with either the GEN1 or 2 mount. Keeping it simple take your range to the target and times it by what the ACI is reading and that will give you your adjusted range to engage the target.
There are many differy ways to find angles like JFComfort posted, along ACI's and ballistic computers. I like the ACI with either the GEN1 or 2 mount. Keeping it simple take your range to the target and times it by what the ACI is reading and that will give you your adjusted range to engage the target.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rprecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bugaboo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am planning to mount an ACI on my rifle to have a non-battery option if technology goes belly up.</div></div>
I am not going to make it sound like I am against technology. But I think being overly dependent on electronics to do these calculations is a bad plan.
But then again the reason I shoot is probably not a substitute for Starbucks, Wine parties and cheese tasting.
I feel a shooter should have all the tools to make these calculations manually, charts, manual tools, gauges, etc.
Sometimes I think folks would be lost if the cant get their kestrel and pda going.
Now, if you have mastered the manual method and use electronics as a matter of convenience, all be it from me to get in your way.
I prefer an Angle Tool that gives me cosine. I think its more refined for quicker manual calculations
</div></div>
I absolutely agree, absolute dependence on technology is bad. That is why I have spent the day before yesterday hiking with mi shooting buddy practicing range and wind estimation, verified by instruments.
Extremes are not good, in any way, either absolute dependence on technology, or absolute rejection of it.
It is a progress and why reject it? We use rifles manufactured according to the latest technological knowledge and not muzzleloaders. I shoot competitions, but also practice skills that are absolutely non-competiton.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rprecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bugaboo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am planning to mount an ACI on my rifle to have a non-battery option if technology goes belly up.</div></div>
I am not going to make it sound like I am against technology. But I think being overly dependent on electronics to do these calculations is a bad plan.
But then again the reason I shoot is probably not a substitute for Starbucks, Wine parties and cheese tasting.
I feel a shooter should have all the tools to make these calculations manually, charts, manual tools, gauges, etc.
Sometimes I think folks would be lost if the cant get their kestrel and pda going.
Now, if you have mastered the manual method and use electronics as a matter of convenience, all be it from me to get in your way.
I prefer an Angle Tool that gives me cosine. I think its more refined for quicker manual calculations
</div></div>
I absolutely agree, absolute dependence on technology is bad. That is why I have spent the day before yesterday hiking with mi shooting buddy practicing range and wind estimation, verified by instruments.
Extremes are not good, in any way, either absolute dependence on technology, or absolute rejection of it.
It is a progress and why reject it? We use rifles manufactured according to the latest technological knowledge and not muzzleloaders. I shoot competitions, but also practice skills that are absolutely non-competiton.
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bugaboo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rprecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bugaboo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am planning to mount an ACI on my rifle to have a non-battery option if technology goes belly up.</div></div>
I am not going to make it sound like I am against technology. But I think being overly dependent on electronics to do these calculations is a bad plan.
But then again the reason I shoot is probably not a substitute for Starbucks, Wine parties and cheese tasting.
I feel a shooter should have all the tools to make these calculations manually, charts, manual tools, gauges, etc.
Sometimes I think folks would be lost if the cant get their kestrel and pda going.
Now, if you have mastered the manual method and use electronics as a matter of convenience, all be it from me to get in your way.
I prefer an Angle Tool that gives me cosine. I think its more refined for quicker manual calculations
</div></div>
I absolutely agree, absolute dependence on technology is bad. That is why I have spent the day before yesterday hiking with mi shooting buddy practicing range and wind estimation, verified by instruments.
Extremes are not good, in any way, either absolute dependence on technology, or absolute rejection of it.
It is a progress and why reject it? We use rifles manufactured according to the latest technological knowledge and not muzzleloaders. I shoot competitions, but also practice skills that are absolutely non-competiton.</div></div>
It wasn't my intent to come across overtly opposed to technology. I just hate to see folks with a system so intertwined with fragile electronics.
I incorporate many helpful technological advancements.
It was not my intent to highjack the OP thread,
Any angle measurement device is better then nothing. Just learn your system
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bugaboo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rprecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bugaboo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am planning to mount an ACI on my rifle to have a non-battery option if technology goes belly up.</div></div>
I am not going to make it sound like I am against technology. But I think being overly dependent on electronics to do these calculations is a bad plan.
But then again the reason I shoot is probably not a substitute for Starbucks, Wine parties and cheese tasting.
I feel a shooter should have all the tools to make these calculations manually, charts, manual tools, gauges, etc.
Sometimes I think folks would be lost if the cant get their kestrel and pda going.
Now, if you have mastered the manual method and use electronics as a matter of convenience, all be it from me to get in your way.
I prefer an Angle Tool that gives me cosine. I think its more refined for quicker manual calculations
</div></div>
I absolutely agree, absolute dependence on technology is bad. That is why I have spent the day before yesterday hiking with mi shooting buddy practicing range and wind estimation, verified by instruments.
Extremes are not good, in any way, either absolute dependence on technology, or absolute rejection of it.
It is a progress and why reject it? We use rifles manufactured according to the latest technological knowledge and not muzzleloaders. I shoot competitions, but also practice skills that are absolutely non-competiton.</div></div>
It wasn't my intent to come across overtly opposed to technology. I just hate to see folks with a system so intertwined with fragile electronics.
I incorporate many helpful technological advancements.
It was not my intent to highjack the OP thread,
Any angle measurement device is better then nothing. Just learn your system
Re: Angle Shooting Gear
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Check This Video Out !
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