Another newbie question about once fired 308 milt. brass.

[My Toy]

I've received several deliveries of once fired 308 brass (most of it is LC-13; some of it was mixed headstamp /w mostly LC-10 and a lesser amount of Win. and the balance various other makes).
I started off loading the LC-10 /w 168 gr. SMK , 150 gr Hornady FMC and pretty much starting loads of H4895 and BL-C2. The gun is an Armalite /w 20" chrome lined std weight barrel.

On my first load of the LC-10 (approx. 50 rds.) I had two partial head separations (faint bright ring about 1/2" up from the case head and a definite crack about half way around the case). The rest of the cases looked OK (no bright ring showing beginning of incipient separation) so I've loaded them 2 more times (ie. they have been fired now a total of 4 times). Still no outward appearance of any separation but I took a stiff wire with a hook bent at one end to prob the inside of the cases and can definitely feel a ring of thinning above the base. I sectioned some of them with a cut off wheel and the case thinning is very apparent.

Wondering if the beginnings of case separations were already present in the once fire brass I received, with a wire probe, I checked a number of cases that I had only de-primed and cleaned. I could feel the beginning of a ring of thinning in probably 20% of the LC-13, 10% in the LC-10 and none in the Win. I sectioned some of the cases and confirmed what the wire probe found.

I realize this brass was probably fired in a MG so I'm guessing this case stretching is pretty normal when you get once fired.
I gather that lots of guy on this forum shoot a lot of once fired brass. My question is: do you inspect all of your newly acquired once fired brass with a wire probe to detect case thinning and separate the brass in to lots for different uses (or at least different numbers of reloads)?

 

[punkwood2k]

Where did you buy your brass from? I've bought several hundred rounds of LC11 / 12, that were obviously fired through a machine gun, and NONE of them had case thinning or separations.. even after 5 reloadings (through a bolt gun if it makes a difference)

 

[My Toy]

Where did you buy your brass from? I've bought several hundred rounds of LC11 / 12, that were obviously fired through a machine gun, and NONE of them had case thinning or separations.. even after 5 reloadings (through a bolt gun if it makes a difference)

I bought the brass from Hi-Tech Ammunition of Wentzville, Missouri. It is sold as recent headstamp LC, once fired. It all happens to be LC-13. All that I have been done to this brass is de-prime, swage the primer pocket and tumble for 6 hours. I'm sure it was once fired as the primers were definitely crimped in place. In the first picture of four cases the top left and bottom left cases clearly show a ring of thinned brass about a half inch up from the case head; the two on the right don't exhibit this at all. The next pic shows the headstamp and the last picshows the outside of the cases where no bright ring or signs of thinning are apparent on any of the cases. As I said doing a quick check probing a bent wire insde the cases I'd have to estimate about 20% of the cases exhibit the beginning of an incipient separation.

punkwood2k where do you get your brass?

 

[My Toy]

View attachment 34302View attachment 34303View attachment 34304

I bought the brass from Hi-Tech Ammunition of Wentzville, Missouri. It is sold as recent headstamp LC, once fired. It all happens to be LC-13. All that I have been done to this brass is de-prime, swage the primer pocket and tumble for 6 hours. I'm sure it was once fired as the primers were definitely crimped in place. In the first picture of four cases the top left and bottom left cases clearly show a ring of thinned brass about a half inch up from the case head; the two on the right don't exhibit this at all. The next pic shows the headstamp and the last picshows the outside of the cases where no bright ring or signs of thinning are apparent on any of the cases. As I said doing a quick check probing a bent wire insde the cases I'd have to estimate about 20% of the cases exhibit the beginning of an incipient separation.

I'm new to buying once fired brass in bulk. Is what I've found an anomaly or is this pretty much what to expect from once fired military brass? Granted I bought this brass to feed a gas gun and only expected to get a couple of bangs out of a case; but this gives me pause to consider how economical once fired brass is compared to new brass especially if I was going to use it for load development in my bolt guns.

As mentioned earlier I have bought from Hi-Tech Ammo and Everglades Ammo and have no reason to believe what I bought was anything but once fired as advertized (all had primers that were crimped and needed the primer pockets to be swaged).
I've seen some unfired LC advertized but seems really pricey.

Where to you guys buy your bulk 308 brass?

 

[My Toy]

View attachment 34302View attachment 34303View attachment 34304

I bought the brass from Hi-Tech Ammunition of Wentzville, Missouri. It is sold as recent headstamp LC, once fired. It all happens to be LC-13. All that I have been done to this brass is de-prime, swage the primer pocket and tumble for 6 hours. I'm sure it was once fired as the primers were definitely crimped in place. In the first picture of four cases the top left and bottom left cases clearly show a ring of thinned brass about a half inch up from the case head; the two on the right don't exhibit this at all. The next pic shows the headstamp and the last picshows the outside of the cases where no bright ring or signs of thinning are apparent on any of the cases. As I said doing a quick check probing a bent wire insde the cases I'd have to estimate about 20% of the cases exhibit the beginning of an incipient separation.

I'm new to buying once fired brass in bulk. Is what I've found an anomaly or is this pretty much what to expect from once fired military brass? Granted I bought this brass to feed a gas gun and only expected to get a couple of bangs out of a case; but this gives me pause to consider how economical once fired brass is compared to new brass especially if I was going to use it for load development in my bolt guns.

As mentioned earlier I have bought from Hi-Tech Ammo and Everglades Ammo and have no reason to believe what I bought was anything but once fired as advertized (all had primers that were crimped and needed the primer pockets to be swaged).
I've seen some unfired LC advertized but seems really pricey.

Where to you guys buy your bulk 308 brass?

Where do high volume shooters here buy their 308 once fired brass?

 

[mtrmn]

I bought a lot from Scharch (Top Brass) and Widener's. The Scharch was ready to load. I have mostly loaded this brass for long term storage and have shot very little of it. I have NOT checked any with wire.

 

[rduckwor]

What has been your experience firing other brass in this gun? Doubtful the gun is mis-timed or over gassed, but the guns the brass was previously fired in certainly could have been.

Good Luck,

RMD

 

[ZombieMonkey]

How much sizing are you doing on these cases?

I get my military brass from BrassBombers.com | Once Fired Military Brass. Best place to deal with in my opinion and if you select LC only for consistency purposes you get exactly that, LC only. Good prices as well. I've been burnt from people selling their shit as once fired before as many of the sellers get their stuff from public or police ranges. BrassBombers is GTG.

 

[High Binder]

Where do high volume shooters here buy their 308 once fired brass?

I bought 6,000 LC-LR 07 cases from a fellow Hide member... It's out there, just gotta look for it.

P.S. LC-LR is much easier to work with than the the usual machine gun LC brass so look for LC-LR (no crimp and not stretched to hell) but it might cost a hair more.

 

[bigedp51]

My Toy

The military sells off its brass to recover money and it is sold in lots to buyers, and many of the online sellers do not buy the brass directly from military auctions. The vast majority of online companies that sell once fired brass do not send buyers to inspect the brass before buying and the majority buy the brass from salvage companies who deal with the government.

The majority of 7.62 brass will be fired in machine guns with larger diameter chambers and much longer headspace settings than commercial firearms. Meaning its a gamble on if and how much the brass stretched on the first firing as you can see from sectioning your cases.

ZombieMonkey posted a link where he buys his brass above and they sell LC Long Range 7.62 M118 once fired brass, and this brass would not have been fired in machine guns.

.308/7.62 - LC Long Range - Cleaned - 100 Pieces

Below is from the link and these cases were fired in tighter headspaced bolt action rifles and have less chance of stretching and thinning on the first firing.

"These are once fired Lake City Long Range .308/7.62 NATO Military brass casings. These casings have been cleaned only. No other processing or loading has been done. These casings are bolt fired and have Lake City Long Range headstamps."

I collected milsurp rifles and had the opposite problem you have, I fired commercial brass in long fat military chambers and had to find ways to keep the brass from stretching on the first firing. I used the RCBS case master gauge to check and measure the thinning in the base web area in thousandths of an inch. This was far more accurate than using a bent paper clip and prevented any case head separations.

The .303 British case below was a factory loaded once fired Winchester cartridge and never reloaded. It stretched .009 on the first firing in a Enfield rifle with the headspace set within SAAMI specifications.

As you can see the once Fired .308/7.62 LC Long Range M118 brass is sold out above for a reason, and that because it wasn't fired in a machine gun. Bottom line, look for companies that sell brass not fired in machine guns or buy the cheaper brass and inspect it with the RCBS gauge.

 

[My Toy]

How much sizing are you doing on these cases?

I get my military brass from BrassBombers.com | Once Fired Military Brass. Best place to deal with in my opinion and if you select LC only for consistency purposes you get exactly that, LC only. Good prices as well. I've been burnt from people selling their shit as once fired before as many of the sellers get their stuff from public or police ranges. BrassBombers is GTG.

The pictures I show are brass as I received it from Hi-Tech. It has only been de-capped, primer pocket swaged and tumbled for about 5 or 6 hours in walnut media. The cases have not been sized and any stretching would have been a result of their first firing (assuming they are once fired - and I believe they are based on the primers being still crimped in). I've seen BrassBombers website and will definitely consider them for my next purchase.

 

[My Toy]

My Toy



The majority of 7.62 brass will be fired in machine guns with larger diameter chambers and much longer headspace settings than commercial firearms. Meaning its a gamble on if and how much the brass stretched on the first firing as you can see from sectioning your cases.

ZombieMonkey posted a link where he buys his brass above and they sell LC Long Range 7.62 M118 once fired brass, and this brass would not have been fired in machine guns.

.308/7.62 - LC Long Range - Cleaned - 100 Pieces

The RCBS case concentricity gauge seems like a great tool although it can't be in my budget right now. I sectioned about another dozen LC-13 once fired cases (I've got to stop doing this as it is quite a waste of brass) and didn't find anymore with the pronounced thinning shown in my first two pics. What I did find can be divided in to two groups: about 2/3's of the cases were completely smooth in the area just above the web as unfired brass would appear (except dirty of course); The 2nd group (about 1/3) showed a ring of rough texture about were you would normally find the thinning/stretching to occur. I am guessing this ring of rough texture running the circumference of the case above the web are the early stage of stretching and can actually be felt with the tip of the bent wire I was using.
I never really explored the condition of case interiors until now. I always relied on the appearance of the bright ring above the case head as an indication of potential separation. None of the cases I sectioned even the ones with very definite thinning outwardly showed such a bright ring on the outside.
I guess the differences in degree of stretch on the once fired cases is a refection of the different chambers it may have originally been fired in.
I learned something here - guess that is what you get when you buy this type of brass. I guess it might be good to try to segregate once fired cases (even with my primitive method) so you know what you have got and can decide how best to use the brass.

 

[richardca99]

I'm on my 6th loading of LC08 7.62 brass that was fired in an M240. It had to be sized initially in a small base die just to get it to chamber of my 5R M700. I've not had a single case head separate, or a neck split, in the entire bunch. I do anneal, and I size with a Lee Collet Die, but the rounds I produce with Varget and the 175 SMK average under 0.5 MOA and produce lots of sub 0.3" 5-shot groups.


Methinks you got screwed on this lot of brass.


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[HAZORD]

If you have a chance to sort through brass to select the ones you want, get yourself a case gage. I use Wilson, but there are others. Cases that have been fired in small chambered guns will go almost all the way into the gage, whereas the oversized cases might stick out the back of the gage as much as 3/8 inch or more. The further they protrude, the harder they will resize and the more likely they will be to have a head separation sooner than later. I sorted all my cases in ranges that they protruded. Groups were "all the way in", "just the rim protruding", "the rim and the groove", "the rim and groove plus 1/8 inch", and "1/4 inch past the groove and further"

A number of reloaders wouldn't even think of using the last 3 groups. For M1A/M14 it is only recommended to reload the cases 3 or 4 at most loadings after the initial loading, due to the violent extraction process on the M1A/M14.

 

[richardca99]

If you have a chance to sort through brass to select the ones you want, get yourself a case gage. I use Wilson, but there are others. Cases that have been fired in small chambered guns will go almost all the way into the gage, whereas the oversized cases might stick out the back of the gage as much as 3/8 inch or more. The further they protrude, the harder they will resize and the more likely they will be to have a head separation sooner than later. I sorted all my cases in ranges that they protruded. Groups were "all the way in", "just the rim protruding", "the rim and the groove", "the rim and groove plus 1/8 inch", and "1/4 inch past the groove and further"

A number of reloaders wouldn't even think of using the last 3 groups. For M1A/M14 it is only recommended to reload the cases 3 or 4 at most loadings after the initial loading, due to the violent extraction process on the M1A/M14.

A lot depends on how much you work the brass during intermediate reloadings. If, for instance, you neck size only after the first loading, then you're likely to get quite a few more cycles than you would otherwise. I read an awful lot about how brass fired in MGs was no good for reloading due to its short life cycle, and my actual experience has shown that problem to be grossly overstated.

 

[mtrmn]

I will add that LC brass seems to be one of the worst offenders when it comes to "hanging chads" inside the case around the flash hole. I recommend deburring the flash holes for any ammo other than shootemup utility loads.

I use a lot of "once-fired military" brass and haven't experienced some of the hard/impossible-to-size problems other folks seem to have with it. As far as case life, yes it may be somewhat shortened, but then again why would I waste what life it has left? I load it and go until it fails or I lose it. 95% of my shooting is with semiautos and no, I'm NOT a sniper/match shooter so my purposes probably differ widely from the norm on this forum.

 

[mtrmn]

A lot depends on how much you work the brass during intermediate reloadings. If, for instance, you neck size only after the first loading, then you're likely to get quite a few more cycles than you would otherwise. I read an awful lot about how brass fired in MGs was no good for reloading due to its short life cycle, and my actual experience has shown that problem to be grossly overstated.

I agree, and then again this is why it's cheaper and you buy them by the thousands, no? But I also agree for match loading just go ahead and get the Lapua or at least the LR LC to remove some of the variables.

 

[richardca99]

Yes. I got mine for free, so it was more a question of..."can I make this stuff shoot?" I'm glad I didn't listen to the detractors, because the groups I've gotten--and the number of loadings--have far exceeded my expectations.


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