So you think 5 degrees less shoulder angle is the thing WSM has been missing all these years? You nailed the thread title.
- Thread starter nick338
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So you think 5 degrees less shoulder angle is the thing WSM has been missing all these years? You nailed the thread title.
The only thing I see you having stated it' might do better is a few fps but I honestly believe it won't.
You are correct you don't have to justify it to anyone.
Agree on redundancy.
Giv'er beans bud.
In case you missed it, the 300 WSM gets very close to what I'm looking for. I built it for that reason. Are you staying with me so far? It has a sharper shoulder angle than I like, a rebated rim which I don't like, it's not a true long action so feeding is not as reliable as it could be and maybe a couple grains more of powder will get me closer to the velocity I want to be at, without having to jump up another 10 grains to the next closest option.
Really not understanding why this is so confusing. I'm obviously not the first and only person to think about this as there's already a reamer available.
Lol, I could say the same thing about 10 of the cartridges on that list above. How many of them do you shoot?
Justify to me a 300 SAUM or 300 RCM over a 300 WSM. Let's hear it.
The answer to this is separate manufacturers wanted their own version with their own name on it
You justified their creation, now justify why people decide on which one they want to shoot.
And I may disagree on the 300 RCM. I'm willing to bet Hornady/Ruger was banking on their improvements as a selling point because that's their MO. The 375 Ruger has made them far more money on the cartridges it spawned then the original ever thought of making.
Why does this matter?
Why does this matter?
Why does this matter?
If you're reloading you can hotrod a 300WSM or download a 300winmag. Or split the difference and use a 30-06, with it's very low shoulder angle and smooth feeding. Or you might find 30-06AI is just right.
When everything is so close choosing a cartridge comes down to brass quality and availability for me.
Wanting to profit off the cartridge is basically what I said...
You're right, I should just shoot what you guys want me to shoot, because obviously the only things that matter are what's relevant in your world not anyone else's.
I mean seriously, I've stated the reasons why I'm looking at this and you recommend a cartridge with less case capacity and a sharper shoulder?
Is there really anything left to discuss here?
If all you wanted to do was make a new cartridge you wouldn't have come asking for opinions on the matter. If you want to do it, go do it. If you didn't want opinions negative to your idea for logical reasons then you shouldn't have explicitly come asking people to provide logical reasons of why the juice isn't worth the squeeze for such an application. You asked, and everyone gave the same answer.
Why would I justify anything to you? You started the thread, I didn't. Go have a 30-7PRC reamer made, no one is stopping you.
I posted about it to generate a discussion and fully expected some of the responses. But given the industry's history of trying to improve one cartridge to the next, over and over and over again for minimal gain, the reasons for me to do it are more valid than most of the opinions I've gotten here and the industry proves it year after year.
I really don't care but the only reason I can see is you believe it will gain a few fps over ur WSM or is there more I missed?
I'm still very doubtful it will gain any velocity over a WSM
If you won't justify it, or can't then don't tell me I'm wrong. Period, end of discussion.
I will say this in support of your idea; if you load a lot of .30cals, and really like .30cal, and want to really make one chambering that takes over the role some of your guns already hold, and you wan this chambering to be a real long-term project that you want to perfect, I think it's actually a cool idea. It's basically 300PRCmini. A lot of people don't want to shoot 300PRC because it's a lot of gun to hunt with. 7PRC really fills a gap and now there's a legit hunting cartridge you can buy off the shelf that has the expansion velocity to kill farther than almost anyone can make an ethical shot at. Does wildcatting it and doing the R&D work make sense to me? No, considering the steep price of brass, even if you were replete with .30cal projectiles it's an expensive effort. But if you really want it, I think it has a role. I just wouldn't own it and a 300WSM and a 300Norma at the same time.
The discussion was over on the first page. Post your load development and results when you get your new barrel. It'll be interesting to see how your idea shakes out.
Finally, a post that actually makes some sense. I have said all along it would not happen until the 300 WSM barrel was shot out, so it's a replacement not an addition, and as far as taking the place of the 300 Norma as well, it could happen because I don't need a safe queen and it's definitely taken a back seat to the WSM since I started shooting it.
It was over because you disagreed, which is the common theme here for the most part. I'll be happy to share all 300 WSM data as well as 30-7PRC, but don't hold your breath waiting as it's at least 18 months out. No desire to discard a great shooting barrel so we will have to revisit this down the road.
If so why are you still trolling ?
I never thought of naming it after one of the members here. Thanks for the idea.
If you really want to shoot at a mile, 300NM would be my recommendation. I’m a novice in the long range game, but have done a craptaculous amount of research.
Would defer to those with more practical/actual experience than I, but I believe the 300NM is the current top of the pile for 30-cal cartridges.
If under 1K yards for hunting, the tried and true 30-06 is hard to beat from an aftermarket support and ammo selection/availability perspective.
Would defer to those with more practical/actual experience than I, but I believe the 300NM is the current top of the pile for 30-cal cartridges.
If under 1K yards for hunting, the tried and true 30-06 is hard to beat from an aftermarket support and ammo selection/availability perspective.
Why not just run a .30-06 at that point? Plenty of people are pushing the bullets you want at those velocities and you can get great brass.
No one is a pushing a 225/230 gr 2700 out of a 24" 30-06
Ok, but the 215 at 2725 is reasonable.
Im
I'm shooting 225 eldm at 2676 fps out of a 30" 308 Win...but today in the cold weather I was pushing the 300 Win Mag just for fun... got the 200 SMK to 3280 fps thought it would be about 3200 and a hot load...but it was almost 3300 fps it was marked so as to shoot it last. Bolt lift was noticeably stiff, brass intact, with a flat primer...this is not a shootable load. But 3200 might be...ran some 230s at 2962 fps as a usable load, in the 300 Win Mag. I have a 300 RUM that feeds 4.020" cartridges, but the old 300 Win Mag us still a good round. Haven't felt the need for the 300 PRC, and felt a 300 Norma Mag would be the best compromise, especially in the improved version... but I'd probably stick with the standard case. Don't shoot much LR way past 1000yds these days, as I did alot of 1400 yd shooting with the 308 Win...so the 308 Win or 6 Dasher, or even the 6.5 CM covers most of my needs with less powder...and I can always go to the 50BMG if I want to burn alot of powder...always experimenting, on what is possible...but even reloading is getting ridiculously expensive just orderd $800 worth of powder, to get 16 lbs... on sale. Seeing $70 per lb, and very limited to out of supply. Is there such a thing as another usless cartridge? Manufacturers keep introducing new cartridges, or you can build a wildcat, one of a kind. I guess if you enjoy it, it's not usless...to you...but many have little improvement over already established cartridges...most could be categorized marketing hype...better than anything on the market, with secret ingredients, and special sauce.
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I did all the chambering, & truing myself with used rifle parts I had laying around for $600. I trued Rem 700 action, then chambered for 308 Win a new, cut to 22", 9 twist, shoots 200 gr SMK .715 BC at 2740 fps and 230 SMK .8 BC at 2550 fps, added detachable bottom metal center feed for longer OAL cartridges. Bolt knob milled off and tactical bolt knob installed along with a muzzle brake. It weighs 7.5 lbs with out a scope. Installed a 3- 15X PST. And for normal deer hunting 155 Lapua at 3100 fps. For a easily portable, 22" barreled, shootable, carry rifle capable of reaching out, with Lapua or cheap LC brass, available everywhere. Plus the hybrid case option for a little extra performance, borrowed from the 277 Fury hybrid case. Not your average 308 but just a 308. I own the reamer and throating reamer so it's just a day in the shop for me, to do all of it. No problem for any decent gunsmith.... and it will go many thousands of rds before barrel replacement.The title says it all, but with all the ideas that are thrown out there on a regular basis, and given my inability to be content with any rifle for very long, I figured let's get some fireworks going, or at the very least be told I should pick a new hobby
I always seem to be looking for the perfect do-it all rifle, not great at any one shooting discipline, but better in most areas than your average rifle/cartridge combo. And what I mean by this is shooting to practical distances/scenarios with portable rifles, not 28-30", 20lb plus pieces of artillery.
After having all the common calibers (.224, .243, 6.5, 7, .30, .338) , I have come to the conclusion that a mid-capacity .30 caliber is the best option for me. Which is probably the reason why I am currently shooting a long action 300 WSM. However, while I am enjoying it, I feel like there is room for improvement.
Enter the 7 PRC necked up to .30 caliber. Since it was announced, I believed the 7 PRC was the perfect .284 cartridge, and best fit for the rifle I thought I wanted, but remembering my experience with a 7 SAUM at a mile with spotting misses and hearing how much better .30's anchor elk at long distance than 7's, I changed the build to a 22" 300 WSM, and began playing with 2 of my favorite bullets, the 215 Berger and 225 ELD.
Accuracy out to 600 yards has so far been stellar with the 215 Berger at 2725 fps and on a braked, 15lb rifle the recoil is very mild. I'm thinking another 100 fps or a 225 ELD at 2700 would be ideal, and given the powder charges I've been using I don't see it happening with the WSM. Of course there will be plenty of people that start screaming that a 300 Win or 300 PRC will do what you want, no problem. And they are absolutely correct, but at the expense of more powder, more recoil and less barrel life, and most likely less efficient because of a lower powder charge in a larger volume case. Or maybe I'm just splitting hairs and need to tell myself the last thing we need is another new cartridge that doesn't do anything different than cartridges that are currently available.
There's nothing ideal about shooting a mild, 215/225 .30 caliber at 1 mile but I'm not looking for ideal, and that's the point of this. The 300 WSM is as close to perfect given what's currently available but having a true long action cartridge for reliable feeding and squeezing out a little more velocity without making the next level jump to 300 Win/PRC is where I'm at with this idea. Kind of a modern day 30-06 length cartridge on steroids.
I'm confident most people will say why would any major company go through the aggravation of R&D for a cartridge that gives you such a slight increase over 1 cartridge and falls short of many others and the answer is most probably wouldn't and I'm barking up the wrong tree, yet I feel like many companies have gone down this rabbit hole before, for example Winchester, Remington and Hornady all had their hands in the pot with their own short action .30's in the early 2000's and they were all closer in performance then what I'm talking about.
Anyway, I like the idea of a .30 caliber from zero to 1 mile over any other bullet diameter and I used to be a speed guy, but I'm not anymore so squeezing every ounce of performance out of the smallest case possible is why I'm talking about this.
Ok let's hear it. I'm sure my buddy is rolling is eyes as he reads this.
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JGS is doing my reamer now. I'm having it spec'd for the Berger 230 OTM which has been pretty successful in my 300 WSM with N565. Hoping to hit 2700-2750 out of a 23" barrel.
How has the accuracy been with the 230 Sierra and have you shot it out far enough to go subsonic? I just picked up some of the new 169 Matchkings to try in my M1A.
What powder are you using for the 230gr 308?
I use hybrid ss/brass, cheap LC military, Lapua regular and Lapua palma, plus most range brass. I have 8 308s, to freed by the thousands.
And also 4" 300 RUM, a standard 300 WM. But a 308 will do the bulk of the shooting, by far. Plus 2 6.5 CMs with hybrid cases used also running 140s at 3140 fps. Also 50BMG if needed, but continue using the 308 Win, because its accurate, versatile, and cheap to practice with.
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Depends on the bullet weight chosen...but the 230's are using 6.5 Staball.
Don't have to choose a 308, but these are 155s shot at 1400yds in 2003, long before the long range crazy of today. Notice the downward angle of trajectory of the bullet stuck in tbe rock...and 1400yds for this bullet is about the kill limit as done in Afghanistan many yrs later by an American sniper. Two different groups on different rock with my girlfriends camera I didn't have a cell phone in those days. Nowadays you can shoot much farther with the heavy 308 high BC bullets and different powders available for higher velocities. Got bored with LR shooting as I've already been there and accomplished everything I set out to do with a 308 Win. Everything accomplished shooting on your belly in tbe prone. The 308 allows you to have a rigorous practice schedule, so nothing under 800 yds is even a challenge back then. A thousand yard human target size is easy...if ya practice. The 308 allows this. There is a reason I keep building 308 win rifles and all I used for LR squirrels, when belonging to the Varmint Hunters Club...except the 50BMG it's for squirrels too. The club record was 2200 yds on a prairie dog with a 308, with super tall cobbled up scope bases, long before all the fancy equipment. The Australian couple was connecting on steel at 3000 yds with a 308 on video 2 out of 10 hits if your into that. But it's an option for the lesser distances I believe should be considered with the new components available. Especially anyone on a budget.
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How do you size fired cases? Do your dies run into the steel base?
The hybrid Stainless Steel case head is slightly undersize in my dies, but after 4 firings of high pressure loads, they expand enough to barley touch, so regular sizing dies work fine in 308 Win, 6.5 CM, and 358 Win is where I have used them. They also have slightly more water capacity to add a bit more powder. And in 230 gr SMK they grouped tighter than Lapua LR cases, with Lapua Palma being the worst, in grouping & largest SD, and lower velocities. But they work well in other applications, and after firing hundreds of them, I have come to believe, for me, the Lapua LR primers cases, to be better. I still have hundreds of new Lapua SR cases but will buy no more, in 308 & 6.5 CM.
LC cases worked well too...but smaller capacity, and thicker neck thickness, similar to Lapua.
What pressures are you running? You have no idea of the exact pressures, in factory ammo or reloads, as each shot has a different pressure associated with it, that's why ammo has recalls, and pull-downs, & powder lot recalls. You rely on manufactures quality and expensive & extensive test to get the powder blend correct plus specialized barrels & testing equipment. I obviously do not own such expensive calibrated testing equipment to test with. Everything available to tbe public is an estimate, cheap strain gauges, give a ball park, maybe, depending on calibration. I use QL as a "reference" only, ..so I can compare, what a lot of powder does, according to QL predictions with respect to pressure signs it presents on the case...and they fire in "my" chambers without sticking cases, heavy bolt lift, or blown primers.
Don't like it, don't do it. No one cares. It's just informational for someone looking for improvement, which may, or may not, be wanted or needed. Called choice. You don't have to improve on factory loads, either, your choice to do so, or not... subsonic or supersonic, caliber of your choice, or wildcat your own.
And the testing continues...
Just asking questions, not trying to imply anything. Not too much info for really heavy .308 or .30-06 loads that I’ve seen. I’ve stocked up on 215s, 208s, 225s and 230s for my .30-06 but I just moved to a new house and don’t have my reloading bench set up yet. I’m wanting to see what powders people are having success with to start my own load development.
I apologize for the snappy attitude, but as you know lot of folks here just want to have fun criticizing and name calling, rather than sharing information, or ya have to agree with their statements. Theirs is always best, like selfish, angry little boys on the playground, with a macho attitude.
I spend thousands of dollars on my reloading hobby, and chamber my rifles plus 35 yrs a a machinist with a complete home machine shop. I give away a lot of what I've learned for free. No one has to agree or follow any of it, but it might be helpful for some..and that is the idea.
The 30-06 will do well with heavy bullets and new powders to push those heavy bullets faster and accurately....if that's what you are after. QL does help so ya don't start too high up with your starting load. Also look for powders outside the box of normal 30-06 loads if you are going heavy bullets. For the 30-06 standard chamber 24" barrel with a 230 SMK at 3.4" COAL will be about 2600 plus fps with 56.6 gr RL 26 as a max, start 5 grs low, or blow up your gun, your choice, and follow COAL as that is a major player in pressure, .050" makes a big difference in pressure. As you move up, look for pressure signs, as all barrels and chambers are slightly different. Many of the good powders are hard to find. The 230 SMK is a 1-8 twist bullet, but a 1-9 can stablize them, but may loose some LR BC but you can go to the 225 eldm, with the same COAL & powder at 57.5 max and 2600to 2650 fps. If you can scrounge up some RL 26...a fun place to start.
The Fury case seems like an unexplored opportunity. Thank you for sharing your findings. Have you loaded any Creedmoors with the Fury hybrid case as well? If so where have you gone with those?
It’s all good. I enjoy talking shit on the internet but not when it comes to something that can blow my face off.
I started off with a factory SPS .30-06 but I picked up a Long Range with the 26” barrel. I doubt the 10” twist will work well for the 225s and 230s but I figured it was worth a shot. All my initial load data was for the old SPS, but I haven’t had the chance to work up data for the Long Range. Until my bench is done, I’ll just keep reading.
I have a pound of Re22 right now and I plan on grabbing some Re26.
What primers are you using? Would you mind listing the complete 308Win loads you've tried? It looks like you need bulk density because you run out of case capacity. Looking through my cabinet, and running numbers, AA2520 and AA2200 are leading the way. I don't have StaBall6.5.
