Another WTF for LEO's to read

#51
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

Graham, your profile reads LE/Attorney. Respectfully,what exactly is your role in Law Enforcement. Are you Sworn,with ALL Police Power? or are you a CIVILIAN consultant.

There is a difference. I ask this because some state's do have "part-time" LEO- In NJ we call them "Specials". That have limited training and have not completed the whole POST program-ie. the entire Police Academy.

Why is this important. You have posted many opinions-which many of us,having been or still are FULL TIME SWORN LEO's-have disagreed with to some degree. Again, are you or aren't you? It DOES MATTER.

You responded: we are hired....etc.
 
#54
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, are you or aren't you? It DOES MATTER.</div></div>It matters to you, and I respect that.

I am not a civilian consultant. But don't get hung-up on labels: I have worked with some consultants who were from a different planet and with others who really knew their stuff.

Yes, I swear an oath. I work full-time for a large law enforcement department and have, at minimum, "three years of progressively more responsible law enforcement experience <span style="font-style: italic">not including patrolman</span>."
wink.gif
I have also worked in a prosecutor's office for both the civil and criminal divisions. But that's just experience: none of it, by itself, automatically means that I know what I am doing.

I have also taught for our academy. And I have taught investigators at other academies. That doesn't mean, without more information, that I taught them anything useful. Don't get caught-up on the whole academy graduation thing: Institutions exist for their own sake and not for the individual officer. In an ideal world things would be different, but large institutions are not built for the sake of you or I. They never were.

And none of what I am saying is meant to disparage any part-timers, 'Specials' as you call them. Many I know have more knowledge and experience than those who are required to put in more hours per week. For example, one of our part-timers is a former Chief. I sometimes seek him out for advice, even though he's just a part-timer. And one of our Cadets is a combat decorated Army Ranger. I don't presume that he is ignorant of much that he needs to know about personal survival just because he never went to the academy.
 
#55
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

I, in no way, was bashing or belittling any LEO. Lord knows their job is rough enough. I was merely stating a fact that kids need firm discipline sometimes or we get an end product like this young fellow. End of the day, its the parents/guardians fault plain and simple. And the cop that was "overpowered" by a child probably wasn't outgunned, he was probably thinking WTF do I need to do to this kid?? Kinda like back on the playground when you and a girl get into a fight and you know its wrong to punch her and you end up getting kicked in the balls. If it were my child doing what that 14 year old did, I wouldn't care if the cop took his belt off and popped them a few, would serve them right.

Kelly
 
#57
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

Thats the absolute truth

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Parallax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Law enforcement decision making defined - "Damned if you do, damned if you don't"

</div></div>
 
#58
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

Our deparment lost 2 officers to gunshot wounds in the last 9 years with 2 severely wounded. There has also been-let's say more successful outcomes-with the cops winning.

Serving as a Patrolman, Detective, Sergeant,Detective Sergeant and Lieutenant in a large urban deparment outside of NYC and retired as a result of line of duty injuries-it was my survival instincts that allow me to type this today.

I have been actively involved in Firearms training and can tell you that society has created a no win situation for all involved.

Damned if you do-and damned if you don't. All I can tell anyone wearing the badge-be careful. Be careful of injury and be careful of getting jackpotted by simply being there doing your job.
 
#59
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All I can tell anyone wearing the badge-be careful. Be careful of injury and be careful of getting jackpotted by simply being there doing your job. </div></div>Good advice. Myself, I would rather be lucky than good any day.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokinbarrels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats the absolute truth<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Parallax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Law enforcement decision making defined - "Damned if you do, damned if you don't"</div></div></div></div>That's the gripe I hear, time and time again, from officers who repeat what they overhear in the locker room. But, and again, that's only the bias of the profession and not the majority experience.

I can prove it: Of the countless officers who enforce the law on a daily basis very few are ever charged with a crime. Even fewer go to jail. Given this fact no one on this Thread has yet asked or answered the obvious question: How come?

Because the real power that the law enforcement officer has over the civilian is qualified immunity from suit while he is properly performing his duties.

Think about it for a minute: What authority do police officers really have over everyone else? The power to arrest for misdemeanors committed in their presence. That authority can be fun your first day, but pardon me if thereafter one doesn't get all giddy about being able to write tickets. What other authority do they have? Immunity under the law.

So, the truth is actually the reverse of a stereotype commonly held by officers who don't understand how the law works and are uneducated about the profession and unsure of their own abilities: that <span style="text-decoration: underline">qualified immunity</span> is what they <span style="font-style: italic">have</span>, not what they are giving up.
 
#60
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

Graham, I'm truly glad you have it figured out. I mean that respectfully.

Go in front of a Federal Grand Jury-investigating a "violation of civil rights" and then come back and let me know how it worked out for you.
 
#61
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go in front of a Federal Grand Jury-investigating a "violation of civil rights" and then come back and let me know how it worked out for you.</div></div>That's your bias, not mine. I've never myself been investigated by a Grand Jury (and I don't mean that as a slight against you). But as an attorney I have practiced in federal court and I have played a supportive role in similar kinds of investigations and proceedings. They worked out properly and justice was served.
 
#62
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

I was never the "Target"-its bad enough being a witness. I'm glad you have all the answer's. Lord knows justice is "blind" and is NEVER EVER swayed by politics, "community activism" and or the race card.

Chances are,you'll never be riding alone in a patrol car working midnights. I'll say no more Councellor-because you have never been a COP.
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#63
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm glad you have all the answer's...I'll say no more Councellor-because you have never been a COP.
cool.gif
</div></div>Allow me the observation that your experiences appear to have left you somewhat bitter about the profession.

It's not me that has all the answers, I just took what some people said and asked a few questions. And it's not me that has it all figured out: greater minds than ours got there before this Thread ever did. I am only saying what is. Why spend your time 'shooting the messenger' instead of having a discussion?

I make no apology for not having my identity so wrapped-up in being, or having been, a cop, that I have to make it a contest as who really is and who really isn't. You win: you're the Man. I never meant to imply that I knew it all, but I am quite able and fully qualified to talk about it with you.
 
#64
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

At least the discussion ended without any MF's being tossed about.

With only 17 years in, I still have no glorious outlook that I am the old man at the top of the mountain. Your discussion parallels my recent pondering of the variety of personalities in this business. The younger fellows have a different set of operating methods that are still within the boundries of policy, yet confound some of the older fellows. The variety in personalities ensures new thinking and prevents stagnation.

How such different views can come from the same side of a badge isn't a bad thing.

Stay Safe.
 
#65
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At least the discussion ended without any MF's being tossed about.

With only 17 years in, I still have no glorious outlook that I am the old man at the top of the mountain. Your discussion parallels my recent pondering of the variety of personalities in this business. The younger fellows have a different set of operating methods that are still within the boundries of policy, yet confound some of the older fellows. The variety in personalities ensures new thinking and prevents stagnation.

<span style="font-weight: bold">How such different views can come from the same side of a badge isn't a bad thing.
</span>
Stay Safe. </div></div>


Funny Graham, you come on here and basically blame these two officers for what happened to them and as soon as you see that no one really agrees with your bullshit, you start to back pedal and double talk like a weasel. I would have had a bit more respect for you had you kept on arguing your nonsense.

Typical behavior for your profession though. I expect nothing less.

Like Arclight said, this guy never was a COP! Yet like everyone else that isn't a COP, he feels qualified to come on a public board and criticize other COPS out there doing what he himself is afraid to do.

Why don't you take off your skirt, put on a vest and gunbelt and proceed to your post or just thank a cop the next time you see one and go one about your merry way. As Mr. Orwell said, "...rough men stand ready to do violence on YOUR behalf".
 
#67
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

Graham, it has nothing to do with bitterness. It has to do wit reality. Its easy to pontificate and "think" you are always correct. Its another to "Have been there and done that". Say what you will I don't doubt your involvement in Law Enforcement. Not as a cop-but as a Prosecutor? And you are indeed sworn and by definition an Officer of the Court.

I gave all I had-and now I am permanently disabled.Serious spinal injuries will limit me to NO employment. I'm not talking about being disabled to "perform the duty of a LEO"-walking is a serious issue.

I respect all opinions and don't subscribe to the "MFer's being tossed about method of trying to argue a point. However,you in your capacity now-may have arrest authority. I understand "Qualified Immunity" but I also understand VICARIOUS LIABILITY.

You posts-and again this is my opinion-basically say to all LEO's out there that IF you do your job properly-NOTHING will happen to you. Basically, the justice system will take care of you. Bullshit. That if shit hits the fan and your instinct is to shoot-you should-again, because the law is on your side.

Setting policy is something I have been involved in. I have had the burden of Command Authority. I have also seen things go horribly wrong. You seem to have an answer for everything.

I'm not bitter-I am a Pragmatist. LEO's today are going to be having a VERY hard time in their careers. Lack of personal responsibilty, the nature of the courts, legislating Judges and the power of Politics all play a role in corrupting the judicial system.

You apparently think you are qualified to pass judgement on a LEO,fact is-you have never walked a day in the average Patrolman's shoes. I'm not trying to, in anyway, disrespect your career. And don't you pass judgement on mine.
 
#68
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At least the discussion ended without any MF's being tossed about.

With only 17 years in, I still have no glorious outlook that I am the old man at the top of the mountain. Your discussion parallels my recent pondering of the variety of personalities in this business. The younger fellows have a different set of operating methods that are still within the boundries of policy, yet confound some of the older fellows. The variety in personalities ensures new thinking and prevents stagnation.

<span style="font-weight: bold">How such different views can come from the same side of a badge isn't a bad thing.
</span>
Stay Safe. </div></div>


Funny Graham, you come on here and basically blame these two officers for what happened to them and as soon as you see that no one really agrees with your bullshit, you start to back pedal and double talk like a weasel. I would have had a bit more respect for you had you kept on arguing your nonsense.

Typical behavior for your profession though. I expect nothing less.

Like Arclight said, this guy never was a COP! Yet like everyone else that isn't a COP, he feels qualified to come on a public board and criticize other COPS out there doing what he himself is afraid to do.

Why don't you take off your skirt, put on a vest and gunbelt and proceed to your post or just thank a cop the next time you see one and go one about your merry way. As Mr. Orwell said, "...rough men stand ready to do violence on YOUR behalf".</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I posted that, not Graham.</div></div>The quote by George Orwell is:

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

He also said "If thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought."

Perhaps he should have said something about reading the responses on a Thread before posting.
 
#69
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I posted that, not Graham. </div></div>

I know exactly what you posted yet my response WAS meant for Graham!

On that note, perhaps Orwell should have also written something about reading comp. <---- <span style="font-size: 8pt">that too is meant for Graham </span>
wink.gif
 
#71
Re: Another WTF for LEO's to read

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I posted that, not Graham.</div></div>I know exactly what you posted yet my response WAS meant for Graham!</div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GardDog223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the clarification.</div></div>GuardDog, you are being diplomatic: it wasn't a clarification, it was absence of the ability to admit a mistake; an ability that is an occupational qualification for a law enforcement officer.

Lt. Arclight, thanks for that post. Really. I never meant to sound like I was judging you. If it came across that way I apologize.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lt. Arclight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand "Qualified Immunity" but I also understand VICARIOUS LIABILITY...You apparently think you are qualified to pass judgement on a LEO,fact is-you have never walked a day in the average Patrolman's shoes.</div></div>What you assume is not correct. I wear a uniform and a badge. Every day. Except the days that I am off the shift schedule. And it doesn't make me special, and it doesn't make better than anyone else.

Vicarious liability is the responsibility of a superior for the acts of a subordinate. In general, supervisors are not held personally liable for the actions of their officers. 'Ultra Vires', the constitutional not the corporate definition, is the term for acting beyond the scope of one's power or authority. And yup, that will get you sued. Would you want a system that does things any other way?

I purposely did not go so far as to say that if one does everything right nothing bad will happen. I, too, have seen things go wrong. It happens. And the darker side of politics is not confined to our profession. What I am saying is that the things we don't like about the job are nevertheless a big part of the job. And that as professionals we need to accept that, train for it, and be honest about it instead of complaining.

I have seen excellent, brave officers crumble under pressures that had nothing to do with facing down a bad guy. My point is that strength isn't always about 'taking off your skirt' and 'putting on a vest', despite what the weakest among us might suggest.
 
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