Wow, that's crazy good accuracy. Thanks for the information. I need to start doing 10 shot group to see how my rifle match up.
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Wow, that's crazy good accuracy. Thanks for the information. I need to start doing 10 shot group to see how my rifle match up.
There's a couple good ones in there. Just some real world results. 18" Kukri in Bravo off an standard Atlas and Sticky Game Changer rear bag. Some are suppressed and some are not. Can't remember which except my unsuppressed was slightly better overall than suppressed. I'd guess they opened up 10%. Enough to not matter unless you want it to matter. The first and largest group was 'warm up' and more than 10 rounds. All others should be 10 round groups at 100 yards indoors.
Top to bottom
Center X
Center X
Midas
Midas
SK Rifle Match
SK Long Range
The last two may be reversed.
Top to bottom
Center X
Center X
Midas
Midas
SK Rifle Match
SK Long Range
The last two may be reversed.
So, the rest of the story for @shopgun, the guy complaining about accuracy. We purchased his rifle back, received it at the shop and this is what we found:
There's also a carbon ring and the barrel doesn't appear to have ever been cleaned. I asked him if his rifle was clean and he emphatically said, "yes!"
SMH....
MB
There's also a carbon ring and the barrel doesn't appear to have ever been cleaned. I asked him if his rifle was clean and he emphatically said, "yes!"
SMH....
MB
So, the rest of the story for @shopgun, the guy complaining about accuracy. We purchased his rifle back, received it at the shop and this is what we found:
Wait, you’re supposed to clean them?
There's also a carbon ring and the barrel doesn't appear to have ever been cleaned. I asked him if his rifle was clean and he emphatically said, "yes!"
SMH....
MB
On a positive note, I wouldn’t blame them one bit if they didn’t buy the rifle back after receiving it in that condition. But they did. A true “you’re happy or your money back” guarantee.
So, the rest of the story for @shopgun, the guy complaining about accuracy. We purchased his rifle back, received it at the shop and this is what we found:
There's also a carbon ring and the barrel doesn't appear to have ever been cleaned. I asked him if his rifle was clean and he emphatically said, "yes!"
SMH....
MB
But Orkan said you never have to clean your rifles!
If so, I won’t knock him for it. Generally, we all approach things differently for various reasons, so whatever works for what he’s looking for might be achieved without cleaning....
MB
Black powder 22LR cartridges? Lol.
Well, yes, yes it is....
MB
Serious question though. I’m not gunsmith here so educate me. Does the bolt face not seat flush against the breech end of the barrel? Wouldn’t that surface be kept fairly clean if it does?
The case head is captured between the bolt face and breech face but in my system, there’s no more than .006” clearance from the end of the bolt and breech. So, there doesn’t take much particulate matter to gum things up.
MB
So, the rest of the story for @shopgun, the guy complaining about accuracy. We purchased his rifle back, received it at the shop and this is what we found:
There's also a carbon ring and the barrel doesn't appear to have ever been cleaned. I asked him if his rifle was clean and he emphatically said, "yes!"
SMH....
MB
At least it wasn’t a case of damage to the bore from improper cleaning. This one is salvageable...
Wow! That’s pretty bad. If the crown looks like that I can imagine what the inside looks like. This is what I call a case of bad operator head space and timing. That has to be eithe a whole lot of rounds without cleaning or some really dirty ammo. I had a friend shoot nearly 3k rounds without cleaning and it didn’t look that bad. It had the build up but it didn’t look like he was trying to grow something out of his barrel. His rifle was shooting horrible too but it wasn’t a Vudoo. When I asked him about cleaning I just got the long uncomfortable scilence 
This has to be Orkan in DRAG
" But Orkan said you never have to clean your rifles! "
I watched that video about rifle cleaning and the guy says he does clean his rifles, just not the inside of the barrels - the bolt face, the breech end of the barrel, the crown - all gets cleaned according to that video. He just says he doesn't clean the bore, ie; with a cleaning rod.
I watched that video about rifle cleaning and the guy says he does clean his rifles, just not the inside of the barrels - the bolt face, the breech end of the barrel, the crown - all gets cleaned according to that video. He just says he doesn't clean the bore, ie; with a cleaning rod.
Stop it. Or the next ban is permanent.
Since both pictures are of the muzzle of rifle, you can't really tell what the breech looks like.
From the looks of the muzzle, I suppose it was shot suppressed (or with a muzzle device that was not removed when (if) the rifle was cleaned.
I looked at both video reviews that @shopgun referred to, it appears both were informal reviews relying on 5-round groups at 100 yards (Josh Waynor's article clearly states that). I think the whole issue is @shopgun's misunderstanding and assumption that the 5-round groups reported in those informal reviews, would be matched by 10-round group results in more rigorous tests. As the various examples of 10-round groups results linked or pictured in this thread shows, and the Lapua 10rd testing on the rifle in question shows, you can't expect 5rd group results at 100y to be the same as 10rd groups. Apples and oranges.
The rifle seems just fine, right in line with what should be 'normal' 10rd group sizes for those rifles.
Seeing the outstanding 10rd accuracy results reported by so many different sources and shooters in this thread, not to mention Vudoo's above-and-beyond customer service in returning the rifle even though there's nothing wrong with it, is actually making me inclined to order a Vudoo myself.
The rifle seems just fine, right in line with what should be 'normal' 10rd group sizes for those rifles.
Seeing the outstanding 10rd accuracy results reported by so many different sources and shooters in this thread, not to mention Vudoo's above-and-beyond customer service in returning the rifle even though there's nothing wrong with it, is actually making me inclined to order a Vudoo myself.
Did he state he was shooting suppressed? I ask b/c I have seen crowns START to look that in less than 200 rounds if you have a thread protector that sticks out passed the threads more than a few thousands. *With quality match ammo too. But I haven’t experienced a loss In accuracy from it, not in 200-300 rounds.
I guess everyone has a different version of what a "clean" rifle is......
Ok...scrap that thought.
Those photos should be made into an instructional photo on how to ruin a rifle, get abysmal accuracy and embarrass oneself as a firearm owner in one simple view. Sorry, but this is one of those "call it like I see it" moments.
MB - after receipt of the rifle and viewing that first hand, I'd me doing more than SMH!
Ok...scrap that thought.
Those photos should be made into an instructional photo on how to ruin a rifle, get abysmal accuracy and embarrass oneself as a firearm owner in one simple view. Sorry, but this is one of those "call it like I see it" moments.
MB - after receipt of the rifle and viewing that first hand, I'd me doing more than SMH!
Good point. I see that now.
This target was recently shot in a National Level 50 Metre Competition here in Ireland The bull is 10mm and the "X" ring 5mm across. It was shot in under 20 minutes including sighters so match pressure was on. 5 shots in each bull count for score and the sighters are shot on two bulls above the four shown in the photo. Ammunition used was SKC Rifle Match(red box) The rifle was the new Anschutz 1761 MPR and was stock from the factory. The action and trigger are a joy to use. It was shot using a front bipod and back bag.
One factor not mentioned so far in this thread is weight. The weight of the rig used here was just on 10lb, including scope and mounts. All of the Rem 700 based .22 rifles weigh a lot more than this. If a competition has weight rules then you have to decide where the weight goes. If the action is heavy then that leaves less weight for the barrel.
One factor not mentioned so far in this thread is weight. The weight of the rig used here was just on 10lb, including scope and mounts. All of the Rem 700 based .22 rifles weigh a lot more than this. If a competition has weight rules then you have to decide where the weight goes. If the action is heavy then that leaves less weight for the barrel.
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The R700 based .22's weight is up to you on how much you want it to weigh. Yes it might be a teensy bit heavier than the Anschutz due to the action, but it's not that much more.
Vudoo 5.5 lbs
KRG Bravo 2.9 lbs
NF Scope 1.75lbs
NF Mount .2lbs
Puts the setup at 10.35 lbs.
You could drop a lb or 2 if you went to a Proof Carbon.
I'd like to think my Tikka T1x and 457 as shown below can compete with the Vudoo.
All these were shot on the same day back to back to back. No cleaning between ammo. Five different types of ammo.
This CZ 457 with Calfee 4 chambered IBI barrel does pretty good also. All these were shot on the same day because it was perfect conditions.
Here's its capability.
All these were shot on the same day back to back to back. No cleaning between ammo. Five different types of ammo.
This CZ 457 with Calfee 4 chambered IBI barrel does pretty good also. All these were shot on the same day because it was perfect conditions.
Here's its capability.
Great shooting. I'm not current with all you've done to your CZ and Tikka. Are these factory actions/triggers that you've basically just rebarreled and nothing else? Of the two, if you were buying today, would you lean more to the CZ or Tikka?
We should compare apples and apples. What barrel length and contour are you talking about here?
Vudoo 5.5 lbs
Vudoo 5.5 lbs
18" Kukri.
OK the 1761 has a 995mm =21.4 inch barrel and weighs 4.6 kg including magazine, so the barrel is 3.4 inch longer and the weight is .9 lb less. I have no data to compare contours but there is a weight advantage. This will not be important to most people but is to some. I do not know what the 1761 MPR will sell for in the USA but is costs €1800 = $1980 here including the Walnut stock and we have a 23% sales tax included. The accuracy, as shown above,is secondary to none.
I do appreciate that to most of the readers of this thread that cost is not the main issue. The main issue is performance with "beauty in the eye of the beholder" a secondary issue I would buy a V22 if I could get one, just to try it out. I like the "sound" of the action on the videos I have seen.
I do appreciate that to most of the readers of this thread that cost is not the main issue. The main issue is performance with "beauty in the eye of the beholder" a secondary issue I would buy a V22 if I could get one, just to try it out. I like the "sound" of the action on the videos I have seen.
Thanks.
The Tikka T1x is in a KRG Bravo stock, IBI barrel has a Win 52D chamber and I put a Timney in it. The Timney is only worth it if you desire a two stage trigger or you get a really good deal on it. I adjusted 95% the 1st stage out and this is an average of 5 pulls, roughly 11 oz with zero creep or overtravel. That's still several ounces better than the stock but a person has to make their own decision if it's worth it.
The CZ is in a MPA Hybrid chassis and the barrel is also from IBI but it has a Calfee 4 chamber. The trigger is stock but I worked on it with the "Airgunshawn" polish kit he sells. That's also an average of 5 pulls.
As far as recommending one over the other, if the buyer was going to buy the rifle and shoot it in the stock form I would lean toward the Tikka. Reasons being every T1x I have had "3" in stock form were all more accurate "considerably" than my two 457's. Typically that'd be the end of discussion but furthermore the T1x comes threaded, I know certain 457 do but I believe at a higher price and some only come with the 1/2-20 European threads which will require an adapter for suppressors. The triggers on both are practically equal with a slight edge to the 457 because of serviceability. Stocks, after dealing with swelling wood over the years I like the T1x stock best. Here's the unknown part...receivers/bolts. The T1x has a 50/50 chance to give you issues either feeding, ejecting or both that requires some type of manipulation of the ejector wire. The feed method is also push/controlled feed whereas both my 457s have 100% controlled round feeding. My Varmint 457 had a horrible action, rough and binding, luckily my Scout model works fantastic. All 5 of (three 22lr and two 17 HMR) the T1x I've had, the bolts have been slick as ice.
It's truly a toss up but if I had to decide it would be the T1x in stock form (accuracy, threaded) and the 457 if you want to change the barrel and stock (nullifies T1x accuracy, can get a better stock/chassis.) That would make the 457 a better overall package because of the better feed and ejection.
Thanks for all that--great background info. I'm building up to get a .22lr bolt gun, looking at Tikka, CZ, and Vudoo. A limiting factor on options is being a LH shooter. I don't buy RH bolt guns anymore...period. Did that most of my life, it's great on the bench, but blows everywhere else, not doing it anymore. In 2020, we're way past the point where LH shooters should have to put up with RH-only weapons that should be ambi in 100% of cases for tactical reasons (e.g. AR15 platform), and rimfire bolt gun makers who don't offer any of their leading models in a LH version (e.g., CZ, Ruger). Vudoo is g2g on LH options. Tikka is actually the most interesting to me as I've converted my bolt guns to 100% Tikka T3x actions. I can currently get a LH T1x in 17 HMR, the 20" version, which is the only thing I can find in the US. But if I can get a .22lr T1x in LH, I wouldn't bother with 17 HMR. Apparently they're bringing the Tikka T1x .22lr LH to the states for sale, I thought it was this year, but this now marks the 2nd straight year that's gone by where they said it'd be here, and it's not. Contacted Eurooptic, they weren't sure when or if they'd get in, but they have a backorder listing for them. May wait until January, if they're still not here will likely break down and order the Vudoo. I'm more than happy to shoot the LH .22lr T1x in its factory config for a year or so to wring it out, see what it can do stock, and figure out my options for improving it. Changing stocks will always be a pain for LH actions on these things, the Bravo won't work. Certain chassis that fit the T3x--like the XLR Element 3.0 that I use on my Tikka 6.5 CM--might work with the LH T1x. But anyway it's all academic until they actually get here. I'm betting about 60% likelihood I'll have to just order a Vudoo in January.
I would love a T1X 22LR lefty for the spouse. Been searching for a lefty for so long... was almost going to find an old used 452 LH.
Well there's always the Browning T-bolt Varmint .22lr LH that we lefties can fall back on as a last resort, for an affordable factory LH bolt gun. But that's an indicator of the level of desperation.
Also I've actually rechecked the Savage LH rimfire actions, no question those can be set up for outstanding accuracy. But dang, that Savage action and trigger..... One of the things you can do about the stock is get an aluminum chassis and have the bolt handle notch cut into the left side. That may or maynot work but it's what I did on my Anschutz Exemplar. The Exemplar bolt is on the left side but the pistol is made for a right hand shooter. The chassis I bought is the MDT LSS.
Thanks.
To the OP - CZ now makes a model that is called the Varmint Precision Chassis model. I have competed against a few of them in national level BR matches and they are competitive in those factory classes. MSRP is about $995. Savage also has a new chassis model precision rifle. Neither will compete with the VuDoo but skill and ammo choices is still a big issue in PRL type matches.
