I have been pondering getting a little diesel car and using biodiesel for a while now. I just got done watching the documentary "FUEL" and I think it kind of sealed the deal for me. If you have a small diesel car (Jetta) and don't have to make much fuel you can really save some money.So is anybody else making their own biodiesel or at least paying for it at the pump?
Anybody running biodiesel?
- Thread starter JWV
- Start date
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
Make sure you check out the downside first. Bio-diesel does have some pretty bad draw backs (higher gelling point, etc..) I don't want to totally turn you off so do your research first.
I work in the industrial diesel industry and will only say that I wouldn't run it in my truck.
Make sure you check out the downside first. Bio-diesel does have some pretty bad draw backs (higher gelling point, etc..) I don't want to totally turn you off so do your research first.
I work in the industrial diesel industry and will only say that I wouldn't run it in my truck.
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
Yea, I have been reading up on it. Correct me if I am wrong, but there are two ways of using it. You can have an unmodified diesel, take vegetable oil(used), filter, add the proper amounts of additives and correct process. Or you can make your car a greaser, which means it could burn unprocessed vegetable oil assuming you had filtered it. The greaser cars can't be used under 55 degrees without a heating unit and are not recommended for city driving.
Yea, I have been reading up on it. Correct me if I am wrong, but there are two ways of using it. You can have an unmodified diesel, take vegetable oil(used), filter, add the proper amounts of additives and correct process. Or you can make your car a greaser, which means it could burn unprocessed vegetable oil assuming you had filtered it. The greaser cars can't be used under 55 degrees without a heating unit and are not recommended for city driving.
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
The only experience I had with bio diesel was at a small asphalt refinery I worked at. They tried to break into the bio diesel arena, built all the equipment and lab to make and test it. My truck was the test subject
it didn't fair well. After going through a set of injectors, she died for good. The test truck was an old (90ish) chevy 3/4 ton 6.5 I know they are schitty, but it had a hundred and somethin thousand miles without any problems, and was dead after a couple months of Bio drippings. I of course wouldn't rule out bad science here, it was customary within those walls, shortly after the Bio venture, I left there too.
The only experience I had with bio diesel was at a small asphalt refinery I worked at. They tried to break into the bio diesel arena, built all the equipment and lab to make and test it. My truck was the test subject
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
Another thing to consider is cost, I notice if diesel is 4 bucks a gallon so is bio, and unless you can get a steady free supply of oil IMHO it's not worth it, I drive a 03 TDI Jetta 5sp with .658 5th gear cluster, EGR delete, with diesel I get pretty consistent 53-55 mpg, with bio it's 52mpg and jetA mixed with ATF fluid 48-50mpg, but any TDI newer than 03 has much higher injection pressure and I would not recommend jetA, YMMV.
Another thing to consider is cost, I notice if diesel is 4 bucks a gallon so is bio, and unless you can get a steady free supply of oil IMHO it's not worth it, I drive a 03 TDI Jetta 5sp with .658 5th gear cluster, EGR delete, with diesel I get pretty consistent 53-55 mpg, with bio it's 52mpg and jetA mixed with ATF fluid 48-50mpg, but any TDI newer than 03 has much higher injection pressure and I would not recommend jetA, YMMV.
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another thing to consider is cost, I notice if diesel is 4 bucks a gallon so is bio, and unless you can get a steady free supply of oil IMHO it's not worth it, I drive a 03 TDI Jetta 5sp with .658 5th gear cluster, EGR delete, with diesel I get pretty consistent 53-55 mpg, with bio it's 52mpg and jetA mixed with ATF fluid 48-50mpg, but any TDI newer than 03 has much higher injection pressure and I would not recommend jetA, YMMV. </div></div>
I'm looking to get a TDI Jetta, like a 1998 or similar. The only way I will consider making my own bio fuel is if I can get the oil for free from a few restaurants. I just want to save a little money and get good mileage. As an added bonus it does smell like french fries and burns a bit cleaner.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only experience I had with bio diesel was at a small asphalt refinery I worked at. They tried to break into the bio diesel arena, built all the equipment and lab to make and test it. My truck was the test subject
it didn't fair well. After going through a set of injectors, she died for good. The test truck was an old (90ish) chevy 3/4 ton 6.5 I know they are schitty, but it had a hundred and somethin thousand miles without any problems, and was dead after a couple months of Bio drippings. I of course wouldn't rule out bad science here, it was customary within those walls, shortly after the Bio venture, I left there too.</div></div>
I wonder if they had too much water in the finished product.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another thing to consider is cost, I notice if diesel is 4 bucks a gallon so is bio, and unless you can get a steady free supply of oil IMHO it's not worth it, I drive a 03 TDI Jetta 5sp with .658 5th gear cluster, EGR delete, with diesel I get pretty consistent 53-55 mpg, with bio it's 52mpg and jetA mixed with ATF fluid 48-50mpg, but any TDI newer than 03 has much higher injection pressure and I would not recommend jetA, YMMV. </div></div>
I'm looking to get a TDI Jetta, like a 1998 or similar. The only way I will consider making my own bio fuel is if I can get the oil for free from a few restaurants. I just want to save a little money and get good mileage. As an added bonus it does smell like french fries and burns a bit cleaner.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only experience I had with bio diesel was at a small asphalt refinery I worked at. They tried to break into the bio diesel arena, built all the equipment and lab to make and test it. My truck was the test subject
I wonder if they had too much water in the finished product.
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
a 98 would be a good one to get, 99-02 are total pieces of shit, in 03 VW redesigned all the problems away(my car has 222k trouble free miles),04 and newer are PD motors and do not get that good of milage, I am on the look out for a 99 Passat TDI 5sp because I want the 3.150 ring and pinon, there hard to find and still carry a high price tag.
a 98 would be a good one to get, 99-02 are total pieces of shit, in 03 VW redesigned all the problems away(my car has 222k trouble free miles),04 and newer are PD motors and do not get that good of milage, I am on the look out for a 99 Passat TDI 5sp because I want the 3.150 ring and pinon, there hard to find and still carry a high price tag.
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
If you convert you'll want to plan on changing fuel filters every couple weeks for a couple months. Bio-diesel cleans out a bunch of gunk that is stuck in the system.
If you convert you'll want to plan on changing fuel filters every couple weeks for a couple months. Bio-diesel cleans out a bunch of gunk that is stuck in the system.
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
HIGH quality bio diesel is fine... the problem you run into is that to buy high quality isn't really a savings. The only way to get high quality fuel and save money is to make it, which really isn't hard. You will need three things to make high quality bio diesel...
1: veggie oil, I can't speak for your area, but in my area there are several smaller resturants that will gladly give you their used oil, they typically have to pay to have it disposed of, places like McDonald's and other chains aren't as easy to get it from sometimes, but it is worth asking. once you find a place that's willing to give away the oil, you'll need a system to collect it, 55gal drums are cheap and you can get a small crane fairly cheap to easily load them by yourself. Ask the resturant to seperate the oil by what was cooked if possible, you can use mixed cooking oil, but iol that only cooked fries and onions rings is better for fuel than oil that meat was cooked in. Once you have the oil, you'll need to test the PH, a titration test, this will tell you how much of the second substance you need...
2: Lye or caustic soda, readily available is used to neutralize the PH and bond with the fatty solids in order to allow them to settle to the bottom and be drained off.
3: Methanol (Racing fuel) is readily available at race shops and it's also used in industrial settings as an anti freeze.
Now for a summary, I will not go into a how to make bio diesel block of instruction here, but here's the run down, filter the solids out of oil that is as water free as possible, yes you can separate the water out, then run the titration test, you will have bought a chart that will then tell you how much lye to add and how much methanol, mix well and let sit until the remaining fatty solids and lye settle to the bottom of the coned container you bought, then you'll drain that off, it will have to be disposed of or can be made into soap, then you'll water wash the biodiesel, this removes even more contaminates and produces a much better fuel, water washing may need to be done more than once.
When you're all done, after about a week ( most of which is an electric pump circulating the mixture or it settling) you'll have a batch of perfectly good, unclouded, golden biodiesel that will run through your vehicle better then petroleum diesel.
the one thing that high quality biodiesel will mess up on a vehicle is rubber fuel lines and orings, since you have to use methanol to make the good stuff, alcohol of any kind eats rubber, generally this takes betweem 50,000 and 100,000 miles, and when it happens you'll just end up w/ fuel leaks to repair, replace the lines with silicone instead of rubber and it's a non issue.
HIGH quality bio diesel is fine... the problem you run into is that to buy high quality isn't really a savings. The only way to get high quality fuel and save money is to make it, which really isn't hard. You will need three things to make high quality bio diesel...
1: veggie oil, I can't speak for your area, but in my area there are several smaller resturants that will gladly give you their used oil, they typically have to pay to have it disposed of, places like McDonald's and other chains aren't as easy to get it from sometimes, but it is worth asking. once you find a place that's willing to give away the oil, you'll need a system to collect it, 55gal drums are cheap and you can get a small crane fairly cheap to easily load them by yourself. Ask the resturant to seperate the oil by what was cooked if possible, you can use mixed cooking oil, but iol that only cooked fries and onions rings is better for fuel than oil that meat was cooked in. Once you have the oil, you'll need to test the PH, a titration test, this will tell you how much of the second substance you need...
2: Lye or caustic soda, readily available is used to neutralize the PH and bond with the fatty solids in order to allow them to settle to the bottom and be drained off.
3: Methanol (Racing fuel) is readily available at race shops and it's also used in industrial settings as an anti freeze.
Now for a summary, I will not go into a how to make bio diesel block of instruction here, but here's the run down, filter the solids out of oil that is as water free as possible, yes you can separate the water out, then run the titration test, you will have bought a chart that will then tell you how much lye to add and how much methanol, mix well and let sit until the remaining fatty solids and lye settle to the bottom of the coned container you bought, then you'll drain that off, it will have to be disposed of or can be made into soap, then you'll water wash the biodiesel, this removes even more contaminates and produces a much better fuel, water washing may need to be done more than once.
When you're all done, after about a week ( most of which is an electric pump circulating the mixture or it settling) you'll have a batch of perfectly good, unclouded, golden biodiesel that will run through your vehicle better then petroleum diesel.
the one thing that high quality biodiesel will mess up on a vehicle is rubber fuel lines and orings, since you have to use methanol to make the good stuff, alcohol of any kind eats rubber, generally this takes betweem 50,000 and 100,000 miles, and when it happens you'll just end up w/ fuel leaks to repair, replace the lines with silicone instead of rubber and it's a non issue.
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
Thanks for the tutorial force multiplier. I think I am going to make some sort of spreadsheet (cvp) so I can compare cost and savings. Is the high quality biodiesel fine to run in the winter if you treat it like a normal diesel? E.I. Anti gelling additives and adequate warm up.
Thanks for the tutorial force multiplier. I think I am going to make some sort of spreadsheet (cvp) so I can compare cost and savings. Is the high quality biodiesel fine to run in the winter if you treat it like a normal diesel? E.I. Anti gelling additives and adequate warm up.
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
it's fine down here in the south, I really can't say for sure about up north
it's fine down here in the south, I really can't say for sure about up north
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
JWV, as I mentioned before you really need to sit down and do some solid research. I didn't cite anything specific (remember this is the industry I work in) because I think it's important that you find your own empirical data and not rely on hearsay evidence which is anecdotal at best.
There are a lot of issues you have to figure out that only apply to you and where you live. Even things that we never think about can come back to bite you hard with bio-diesel such as running it in locals that require you to pay taxes on your fuel, if you get dip-checked and can't prove that you paid your taxes on your bio-d you're looking at a strictly enforced $10,000 fine, it's exactly as if you dip-checked with red diesel. But this is specific to your local laws. Also your cetane number is going to go up, your lubricity is going up and the energy is going down as compared to petro-based diesel and those factors are going to all be relative to the various additives and base. Modern fuel systems don't have rubber in them, even the rubber fuel lines still have a silicon lining on the ID, so that's not an issue if you're buying new. You'll get slightly lower gas mileage as bio-d has slightly less energy in it than #2 but it's pretty close (prob won't notice). Also you mentioned running vegi/fryer based fuels, I wouldn't do that! Soy is the only way to go, I'll let you figure out why and again I wouldn't run any of it...
In short do some hardcore research and when you think you have it nailed PM me and we can chat on the phone.
JWV, as I mentioned before you really need to sit down and do some solid research. I didn't cite anything specific (remember this is the industry I work in) because I think it's important that you find your own empirical data and not rely on hearsay evidence which is anecdotal at best.
There are a lot of issues you have to figure out that only apply to you and where you live. Even things that we never think about can come back to bite you hard with bio-diesel such as running it in locals that require you to pay taxes on your fuel, if you get dip-checked and can't prove that you paid your taxes on your bio-d you're looking at a strictly enforced $10,000 fine, it's exactly as if you dip-checked with red diesel. But this is specific to your local laws. Also your cetane number is going to go up, your lubricity is going up and the energy is going down as compared to petro-based diesel and those factors are going to all be relative to the various additives and base. Modern fuel systems don't have rubber in them, even the rubber fuel lines still have a silicon lining on the ID, so that's not an issue if you're buying new. You'll get slightly lower gas mileage as bio-d has slightly less energy in it than #2 but it's pretty close (prob won't notice). Also you mentioned running vegi/fryer based fuels, I wouldn't do that! Soy is the only way to go, I'll let you figure out why and again I wouldn't run any of it...
In short do some hardcore research and when you think you have it nailed PM me and we can chat on the phone.
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
Been turning a wrench on diesel's for 20 years with 5 of those at a fuel shop that repairs the fuel system components and you couldn't pay me to run that crap . Any savings on fuel costs will made up for with the lessened life of the fuel system components .
Been turning a wrench on diesel's for 20 years with 5 of those at a fuel shop that repairs the fuel system components and you couldn't pay me to run that crap . Any savings on fuel costs will made up for with the lessened life of the fuel system components .
Re: Anybody running biodiesel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JWV, as I mentioned before you really need to sit down and do some solid research. I didn't cite anything specific (remember this is the industry I work in) because I think it's important that you find your own empirical data and not rely on hearsay evidence which is anecdotal at best.
There are a lot of issues you have to figure out that only apply to you and where you live. Even things that we never think about can come back to bite you hard with bio-diesel such as running it in locals that require you to pay taxes on your fuel, if you get dip-checked and can't prove that you paid your taxes on your bio-d you're looking at a strictly enforced $10,000 fine, it's exactly as if you dip-checked with red diesel. But this is specific to your local laws. Also your cetane number is going to go up, your lubricity is going up and the energy is going down as compared to petro-based diesel and those factors are going to all be relative to the various additives and base. Modern fuel systems don't have rubber in them, even the rubber fuel lines still have a silicon lining on the ID, so that's not an issue if you're buying new. You'll get slightly lower gas mileage as bio-d has slightly less energy in it than #2 but it's pretty close (prob won't notice). Also you mentioned running vegi/fryer based fuels, I wouldn't do that! Soy is the only way to go, I'll let you figure out why and again I wouldn't run any of it...
In short do some hardcore research and when you think you have it nailed PM me and we can chat on the phone.</div></div>
That is crappy they still have the right to tax you on homemade diesel fuel.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: High Binder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">JWV, as I mentioned before you really need to sit down and do some solid research. I didn't cite anything specific (remember this is the industry I work in) because I think it's important that you find your own empirical data and not rely on hearsay evidence which is anecdotal at best.
There are a lot of issues you have to figure out that only apply to you and where you live. Even things that we never think about can come back to bite you hard with bio-diesel such as running it in locals that require you to pay taxes on your fuel, if you get dip-checked and can't prove that you paid your taxes on your bio-d you're looking at a strictly enforced $10,000 fine, it's exactly as if you dip-checked with red diesel. But this is specific to your local laws. Also your cetane number is going to go up, your lubricity is going up and the energy is going down as compared to petro-based diesel and those factors are going to all be relative to the various additives and base. Modern fuel systems don't have rubber in them, even the rubber fuel lines still have a silicon lining on the ID, so that's not an issue if you're buying new. You'll get slightly lower gas mileage as bio-d has slightly less energy in it than #2 but it's pretty close (prob won't notice). Also you mentioned running vegi/fryer based fuels, I wouldn't do that! Soy is the only way to go, I'll let you figure out why and again I wouldn't run any of it...
In short do some hardcore research and when you think you have it nailed PM me and we can chat on the phone.</div></div>
That is crappy they still have the right to tax you on homemade diesel fuel.
