Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

[JoeMartin]

I was reading on the Appleseed Project Blog;

http://appleseedproject.blogspot.com/

that the Ruger 10/22 with TSR100 or TSR200 Aperture Tech Sights, along with the Military web sling has been named the Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle - because of its ease of function I gather, which is good, and it's also American made - (which it should be in this case when viewed in the light that the Appleseed Project has its Roots in American Marksmanship).

This set me to thinking and wondering why the Appleseed Project has not (as yet - or if they intend to) name a bolt action .22LR rifle as a recommended trainer as well?

I personally feel they should name a bolt action .22LR as well as a trainer based on our history of 'Sniping Marksmanship' that has turned, altered, and directed, the outcome of many battles in America's history.

I would think for a bolt action .22LR to qualify for such an honor to be named as an Appleseed Project Liberty Training Rifle, it would have to meet at the very least, being an American made rifle. The same would go for the add-ons of scope, bipod (if applicable), and sling.

I'm going to post this over on the Appleseed Project site as well to see what their thoughts are on this. I wanted to get you folks opinion, as in my opinion - Sniper's Hide has more familiarity with something like this when it comes to bolt action trainers.

Any thoughts?

 

[wksinatl]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle


Joe,
My shootin' pard and I am going to an AS shoot this spring. I switched around some 10/22's and built one for me and another for my son. I shoot Russian CM-2's and had an extra rear sight. I mounted the sight on my 10/22 and used a front sight from here: http://www.nodakspud.com/NDS-22.htm. Mine has a Kidd trigger, bolt, etc.

On my son's rifle I got rid of the barrel band, reshaped/refinished the stock. I installed Tech-Sights from here: http://www.tech-sights.com/ruger3.htm
This one has a re-worked factory trigger, radius-ed bolt, etc.

I purposely set both of these rifles up with irons but mine has a 20moa rail on it to swap back and forth between the irons,a Leupold 4.5-14-40mm scope, and a Millet red dot.

We bought the GI slings from the AS store.

If I were going with a bolt gun I would use my CZ Varmint. We are looking forward to going to the AS.

Keith

 

[bra260]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

At the Appleseed I shot, almost everyone was shooting a semi- auto. You would be hard pressed to shoot a bolt action in the time frames required. They may want to have people purchase a rifle that almost anyone can use to shoot in the required time frame.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

I would almost think that if a bolt action .22LR were adopted as a second rifle, there would perhaps have to be a second training program that AS is not set up for at this time.

My son and I are set up with our 10/22's for AS events. We've not attended one as yet, but plan on doing so this year. Who knows, maybe we'll get to squeeze in two?

KS, I like that sight setup on that Ruger! Nice!!!

 

[al redneck]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

I used an M1A and my son used my CZ Varmint for the Appleseed shoot. I have practiced with the CZ. You have to work the bolt very well to be competitive with a bolt gun. In practice I could shoot expert but often ran over about 2-5 seconds on the sitting and prone rapid fire.

david

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would almost think that if a bolt action .22LR were adopted as a second rifle, there would perhaps have to be a second training program that AS is not set up for at this time.
</div></div>

I would suggest Appleseed would do well to extend the timed portions of the AQT to 2 minutes each. Then the event would be far more friendly to the bolt, lever, and pump guns out there. Heck, even a single shot would be feasible. This would truly make the Appleseed a real "run what ya brung" event.

 

[Shiraz]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

I think Appleseed has the same outlook as CMP. They are both focused on battle rifles and the deployment of them. Which is a good thing.

I've never shot an Appleseed but have shot alot of CMP, years worth.
And reading through the Appleseed stuff, to me it looks like CMP with a twist.

The CMP guys I've shot with that had bolt guns worked hard on the rapid fire, but cleaned up on the slow fire.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

From the replies to my post over on the Appleseed forum, it does appear that it's all about speed, and semi-auto is the way to go.

They do not discourage any firearm, but the time limitations would be against you using anything other then a semi-auto. It doesn't sound as if considerations for more precision style shooting will have a place within the AS program.

This is fine, and I will accept the program for what it is, and what it offers, should my son and I attend an AS event.

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From the replies to my post over on the Appleseed forum, it does appear that it's all about speed, and semi-auto is the way to go.

They do not discourage any firearm, but the time limitations would be against you using anything other then a semi-auto. It doesn't sound as if considerations for more precision style shooting will have a place within the AS program.

This is fine, and I will accept the program for what it is, and what it offers, should my son and I attend an AS event.
</div></div>
And this is what is too bad... the program advertises "run what ya brung," yet won't add two minutes to the AQT to make it more accommodating to a new shooter with a non-semi auto rifle.

Really sad because the training and the program are really top-notch. I absolutely loved it and I'm going back to one this spring!

 

[Chiller]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

so are you saying that a bolt will not run?

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

As I understand it, the AQT was written for the M1903 rifle, and is said to be doable with a bolt gun if you practice.

Does anyone know the shot count -vs- time limitations?

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I understand it, the AQT was written for the M1903 rifle, and is said to be doable with a bolt gun if you practice.

Does anyone know the shot count -vs- time limitations?
</div></div>
Shot count / time:

1st Round:
10 shots, standing (offhand) - 2 minutes - 100 yd target


2nd round:
10 shots, (drop to) sitting/kneeling - 50 seconds - 1 mag change (2 & 8 rounds) - 200 yd target

3rd Round:
10 shots, (drop to) prone - 60 seconds - 1 mag change (2 & 8 rounds) - 300 yd target

4th round:
10 shots, prone - 2 minutes - 400 yd target


FWIW - the groundwork for the AQT was developed for the 1903 bolt action, but the course of fire was much different:
- "rapid fire" was two individually timed 5-round strings with 20 seconds each (40 seconds for 10 rounds with a break for reloading... no "dropping" into position).
That morphed into a competition based trial that had "rapid fire" of either 2 or 3 rounds in 30 seconds, fired at a position at a certain distance.

So, no - I do not recommend a bolt action for Appleseed, unless you've been to one and want the additional challenge... or unless you are an accomplished high-power shooter who also wants a challenge.

Back to the AQT:
Much later, with the M1 Garand, it morphed into something that more closely resembles the AQT used at Appleseeds these days (notice the 2 rounds, then 8 more? That is because of the influence of the Garand).
Here's a link for more info: PDF on origins of the AQT

More recently, I understand that the Appleseed higher ups have been toying with a more advanced AQT - 10 rounds for each of the four ranges (100-200-300-400 yards) done in four minutes. 4 mags prepped with 10 rounds each. I did this a bit with a buddy who is an instructor for Appleseed and it was fun. Had one of my higher scores at that point in time, too.

 

[wksinatl]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Usagi,
Good info, thanks for posting it.

I really rather have my son shoot it with his bolt gun but with the time constraints think he would do better/have more fun with one of the 10/22's.

I'll tell ya how misguided I was. ......I was thinking about shooting it with one of my Russian CM-2's (single shots). The more I learned about it the more I realized even a mag fed bolt gun might not keep up. I'm sure there are folks that have done it with a bolt, just don't think I would be on that list.......

Keith

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Shot count / time:

1st Round:
10 shots, standing (offhand) - 2 minutes - 100 yd target

1st Round = 12 seconds per shot - (this seems doable)

2nd round:
10 shots, (drop to) sitting/kneeling - 50 seconds - 1 mag change (2 & 8 rounds) - 200 yd target

2nd Round = 5 seconds per shot - (Smaller target, time cut by 70 seconds, and the added position shift and magazine change - this would be a tough one for a bolt gun, IMHO)

3rd Round:
10 shots, (drop to) prone - 60 seconds - 1 mag change (2 & 8 rounds) - 300 yd target

3rd Round = 6 seconds per shot - (Smaller target yet and again a position change along with a magazine change - regardless of getting that extra 'one second' per shot to aquire the target, this would be really tough for a bolt gun shooter, IMHO)

4th round:
10 shots, prone - 2 minutes - 400 yd target

4th Round = 12 seconds per shot - (This seems doable, IMHO)

So really, Rounds 2 & 3 are the two COF that really presents the biggest time restaints - which in all likelyhood you could not effectively take your child who owns a bolt action as his/her first rifle, and expect them to complete the COF effectively without being rushed - thereby resulting in poor scores.

At that young age subconsciously instilling a, "I can't do it attitude within their thinking doesn't seem like a good idea to me. So, what do you do - put a semi-auto in their hands before they're ready and say do it with this? You could, but then you may find they do worse as they try to balance the time per shot count and they most likely end up spraying and praying.

This could hold true for adults as well. So what is really accomplished by not giving adequate time to shoot the COF?

Looking in from an old Infantryman's view, seems to me 50 seconds would be better served at 100 yards, and 60 seconds at 200 yards, while at 300 and 400 yards should be the 2 minutes.

Just my opinion.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

When all is said and done there is only one other thing to do and that is field test.

I just ordered some AQT targets and once they arrivve I will begin my testing along with help from my son and a friend of ours.

Only one way for sure to find out if things are doable and that is shoot the COF.

I will use my Marlin 925 - w/o scope (Age 53)
My son will use his Ruger 10/22 w/ aperture sights (Age 14)
Our friend will use his Savage MK-I single shot w/scope (Age 70)

We'll get to the bottom of this...

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

The appleseed project was intended to get the guy who has a surplus or hunting rifle in the closet off his couch and out shooting. Then to come back with freinds and family
The intention is to change the climate in our country from the mainstream thought that shooters are weirdos to Shooting is a great family sport and everybody does it.
When people who are already shooters come into contact with the program they start asking which rifle should I shoot?
It is possible to shoot the AQT with scoped .30'06 top fed hunting rifle, But much easyer to use mag fed semi-auto.22. The idea is get your rifle out of the closet.
There is much to learn about breathing, NPOA, the six steps and trusting your position to make it work. Running a bolt and rebuilding your position each shot will make you better in the end.
Appleseed is all about the shooting, fellowship, American heritage, and marksmanship in field positions.
Many bench shooters will have problems with scopes to far back to use in prone position
Bring lots of ammo and a plush carpet scrap to lay on.
I shot a rifleman score on the first AQT offered me but once I started finally listening to and useing the points of instruction my scores improved.
I am an appleseed instructor hiding out over on the appleseed site as clodhopper.

 

[tjscheller]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Appleseed instructor here too...

If you're worried about the time on certain courses of fire then you're kinda missing the point of Appleseed. Our #1 Goal is to plant the seeds of Liberty in the minds of folks that may have forgotten what that means. We do that by by retelling stories from the first day of the American Revolution and by reconnecting people to the heritage of an American Rifleman.

We strive to make people Riflemen and the standard we use to determine success is the modified AQT. Being a Rifleman, however, is more than just marksmanship. It's about persevering and rising to a challenge.

There is the big lesson! If you can't do it, figure out how and then don't give up until you can!

Regardless of what you show up with (as long as that includes a teachable attitude) your marksmanship WILL improve.

FWIW There's guy who did it left handed with a .270 Rem 700, and a couple of new to shooting sisters 13&14 yrs that came <span style="font-weight: bold">really</span> close with single shot Crickets.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Not taking issue with what Appleseed is about, but it has a whole lot to do with marksmanship I would sure think as well as our American Heritage, which is restoring our creed of a Nation of Riflemen.

I personally do not worry about time constraints on COF, nor my shooting skills. I learned them from the best Drill Sgts in the world (IMHO) and have carried that training with me to this day.

I understand wanting to get folks off the couch and out shooting - that's a great idea. I understand that the COF needs to be challenging, and that's good also.

I've also learned not to walk into something I'm not prepared for, so my little group (which I added another friend this morning - 56 years old) we'll give the course a run or two with different firearms and see what we think?

Afterall, I believe it has been said if you're going to attend an AS event, one should practice.

 

[wksinatl]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<span style="font-weight: bold">"Appleseed is all about the shooting, fellowship, American heritage, and marksmanship in field positions."</span>

Does it get any better than that???

I'm really looking forward to taking my son.

Keith

 

[Arboreal]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

I did the Appleseed with a bolt gun. I couldn't get all of the shots off in time, but I learned a lot. It was great instruction. I liked it so much I volunteered to help promote the events.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

The second and third courses of fire listed in posts above also have a mag change requirement, uaually 2+8 but 5+5 fine with five round mags.
Tube fed semi auto rifles load 11 rounds and eject the third cartridge on the ground unfired.
Joe, the more you practice before an appleseed usually that much more needed to unlearn to go with the program.
Come on up to Laramie feb 6. I will pay your entry fee. Once you have done it you can show your son and freinds how.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Thanks for the offer Clodhopper, but I think we'll pass for now and do some practicing with the targets I ordered as well as work on our breathing and shot reps, along with the magazine changes, and position drops, as well as sling usage.

I'm sure we'll catch up at an AS event soon.

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joe Martin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shot count / time:
2nd Round = 5 seconds per shot - (Smaller target, time cut by 70 seconds, and the added position shift and magazine change - this would be a tough one for a bolt gun, IMHO)

3rd Round:
10 shots, (drop to) prone - 60 seconds - 1 mag change (2 & 8 rounds) - 300 yd target

3rd Round = 6 seconds per shot - (Smaller target yet and again a position change along with a magazine change - regardless of getting that extra 'one second' per shot to aquire the target, this would be really tough for a bolt gun shooter, IMHO)
...
So really, Rounds 2 & 3 are the two COF that really presents the biggest time restaints - which in all likelyhood you could not effectively take your child who owns a bolt action as his/her first rifle, and expect them to complete the COF effectively without being rushed - thereby resulting in poor scores.

At that young age subconsciously instilling a, "I can't do it attitude within their thinking doesn't seem like a good idea to me. So, what do you do - put a semi-auto in their hands before they're ready and say do it with this? You could, but then you may find they do worse as they try to balance the time per shot count and they most likely end up spraying and praying.

This could hold true for adults as well. So what is really accomplished by not giving adequate time to shoot the COF?

Looking in from an old Infantryman's view, seems to me 50 seconds would be better served at 100 yards, and 60 seconds at 200 yards, while at 300 and 400 yards should be the 2 minutes.

Just my opinion.

</div></div>
You hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately, it seems that there have been many people... mostly youths and women shooters... that have been frustrated by the event. So much so that they often wish to leave early.

Appleseed instruction does not include mag changing techniques, malfunction clearing techniques, and the like, either. Too much other info to go over.

These two reasons combined are why I do not suggest a brand new shooter attend an Appleseed - take 'em to the range a couple of times to help them along before letting them "drink from the firehose." <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">But don't let those new shooters get soured to the art!</span></span>


Now, if Appleseed were to adopt the times you suggest, I would certainly change my thoughts on that.

Heck, Appleseed could change all four portions to 90 seconds and it would clear up 90% of the frustration the newer shooters experience. And, it would be the same overall time to shoot... making more people happy.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

First, let me say that this whole thread started out with me asking a simple question. Was there any plans of AS naming a bolt action rifle as a Liberty Training Rifle, such as what they had done with the Ruger 10/22?

Again, I will say I'm not here to take issue with the Appleseed program. I'm just putting the program into prospective at this point to evaluate whether or not is has a place within my firearm training techniques and those I teach and relate to my son, and my friends as well.

This is why I ordered the AQT practice targets and recruited the help of others of different ages and firearm usage to see if in fact the shooting portion of the program is fundamentally sound and would meet an expectation set by what I was taught and has been carried over to this day - sharing it with others.

As a side note, the folks I shoot/train with are very well aware of our Nation's history from our beginning of where we've been to where we've gone. We're veterans who care and share.

To continue; I've read where the AS is not about the shooting... I've read where it's all about the shooting...

I've concluded it is about protecting our Constitutional Rights, as well as Preserving our History which is our Heritage, which some would like to see end. This is why we must always be vigilant.

Now if I've stepped on some folks toes, I apologize. This was never my intent. All I wanted to know was if, "AS had any plans on naming a bolt action rifle as a Liberty Training Rifle as well?"

This thread then grew to more then what was asked. This is fine because it did open some doors to questions of why or why not a bolt action should be used in AS events.

Once again, I will say that I will do my field testing on the AQT targets and determine this for myself.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Wearing steel toes here.
Appleseed is lots of people with lots of opinions.
What ever your reason is for the rifles you choose come on out and shoot.
Just because the score of 210 eludes you in the alloted time the event is still fun.
There in no official appleseed rifle, and no official appleseed training rifle.
Liberty Training Rifle is usually a .22 because of ammo cost. Some people want LTRs to function like the larger centerfire they own.
10-22s are easy to and inexpensive to buy, modify, and extra magazines are redily avable. That could be why they are so popular.
The standard of accuracy is 4 minutes with all the time, mag change, and position restraints. A 10-22 can handle that while the bolt guns on average shoot better.
Expensive modifications of 10-22s cut into the ammo budget. While every one likes to have a fine rifle, this program is about being effective with rack grade equipment.
Appleseed's focus is on the software.  

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clodhopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wearing steel toes here.
...
There in no official appleseed rifle, and no official appleseed training rifle.
...
While every one likes to have a fine rifle, this program is about being effective with rack grade equipment.
...
Appleseed's focus is on the software.   </div></div>

Everything here is absolutely true.

However...
Appleseed markets extensively to newer shooters.
Appleseed instructors often say it is "run what ya brung"

The timed portions are not favorable for a newer shooter with a semi-auto, much less a bolt gun or lever gun.

What does it hurt the Appleseed project to make each section 2 minutes? Of even 90 seconds?
Answer - it hurts <span style="font-style: italic">nothing</span>.
What it <span style="font-weight: bold">would do</span> is help the newer shooters, and those who are running "what they brung" to be able to focus more on the "software."

Again, not being overly critical... I love the Appleseed shoots. I am easily able to complete all timed portions. I can do so now with scores in the 230's (scoped) and 220's) iron sights. <span style="font-weight: bold">BUT</span> - I've been shooting for over 25 years.

Putting together the things Appleseed does with the clientele Appleseed caters to invites a strong possibility of disaster for the newer shooters. Don't believe me? Look up any Appleseed AAR on their own site. Rarely if ever do all the shooters come back for Sunday. Appleseed apologists say those people are "going to church." Sadly, I DO attend church and that nuber just wouldn't add up.

But, since I am NOT trying to stir things up (other than rational thought)...
<span style="font-weight: bold">My challenge to those associated with Appleseed is this... give me a logical argument why the Appleseed project should not either a)increase the time limits to accommodate most major gun/shooter combinations; or b) change the marketing focus off of brand new shooters.</span>

 

[Brasscow]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

I don't know about all of this bolt action can't make time crap. I can shoot rifleman every single time in the time alotted, without exception with a CZ 453. I've shot plenty of 245+ scores like this.

 

[Chadwick122689]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: brasscow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know about all of this bolt action can't make time crap. I can shoot rifleman every single time in the time alotted, without exception with a CZ 453. I've shot plenty of 245+ scores like this. </div></div>

True but I think the argument was about less experienced shooters... Not gals and guys with experience...

 

[Josh Smith]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Hello,

Rifleman here. Second try, first day ever.

The course is designed around a semi-auto - an M1 Garand to be more precise (load 8 in one mag, two in another). This is why the Ruger is preferred - and I prefer mine with 10 round aftermarket mags which protrude from the bottom of the stock. Just easier to manipulate.

Now, after I shot Rifleman, I broke out the Mk II BTVS. It has a bipod on it, but I was not allowed to use it - sling only. The 4.5x (min) power 'scope worked well, but you have to know how to shoot offhand with a 'scope without chasing the crosshairs.

I eventually got the rhythm down working the bolt and reloading, but man, making Rifleman with a bolt action is HARD. If you plan to try it, you'll need to get a LOT of practice in beforehand. The only reason I got it was because I was shooting 100 rounds per <span style="font-style: italic">day</span> through it at pests and targets out to 100 yards.

On the other hand, I finished the 10/22 the day before the matches and was able to use it - an unfamiliar rifle - to get the patch.

In short, I suggest first shooting with a semi-auto, detachable mag fed .22 rifle with really good sights.

Then break out the bolt gun and see what you can do after you have the patch.

Josh

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

I've been reading on the AS Blog, and these things caught my eye;

http://appleseedproject.blogspot.com/

"More and more people are bringing .22 rimfires for the 25m portion. And when you bring your kids (up to age 20 shoots free) .22 rimfire is great!"

Side Note: (I also understand that women now shoot for free.)

The Blog also clearly says;

" Bolt Actions and tube-fed .22s - the bolties are fun to shoot, but not necessarily easy to use for marksmanship training, compared to a semi-auto, which takes the work out of it for you. Of course, you can practice with your bolt action prior to coming to the Appleseed - there's no question you can shoot 'rifleman' with it just as good as a semiauto - but you'll work harder at it, particularly as a newbie - and that's the point of this set of guidance suggestions - to make the process easier, not harder for you. If you do bring it, make sure you bring at least a couple of stripper clips for it, assuming it offers that option. Tube-fed .22s are OK - except when the "LOAD!" command is given, and then you're quickly fumble-fingering the rounds into the tube. Not a major problem, maybe - but again, if you have a clip-fed one, that's the one to bring to an Appleseed."

As to the kids up to 20 years old shooting for free, and now women also shooting for free - it would appear there is plenty of opportunity for both groups to achieve Rifleman status with either bolt or semi-auto provided they have practiced the program and are familiar (or become familiar) with good marksmanship shooting techniques and skills.

Yes, time adjustment on the COF does seem a bit off to me, but it's nothing that I'm concerned about as the COF is what it is. This program's COF should be approached that way mentally.

The following from above pretty much says it;

"a semi-auto, which takes the work out of it for you."

does indicate to me that this COF is designed around the semi-auto rifle and this is fine. The choice is clearly up to the individual of what to use.

I can see where frustration can become a part of this course for those that do not bring the recommended equipment. Be this as it may, "run what you brung" this is only an option given if you wish to go that route.

It would be nice to see a type of "sub" program for the new folks coming into contact with this. That's for other's to decide who created this program, not me.

 

[tjscheller]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Usagi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Putting together the things Appleseed does with the clientele Appleseed caters to invites a strong possibility of disaster for the newer shooters. Don't believe me? Look up any Appleseed AAR on their own site. Rarely if ever do all the shooters come back for Sunday. Appleseed apologists say those people are "going to church." Sadly, I DO attend church and that nuber just wouldn't add up.

But, since I am NOT trying to stir things up (other than rational thought)...
<span style="font-weight: bold">My challenge to those associated with Appleseed is this... give me a logical argument why the Appleseed project should not either a)increase the time limits to accommodate most major gun/shooter combinations; or b) change the marketing focus off of brand new shooters.</span> </div></div>

In the interest of rational thought I'll share my observations...

First a question or two for you. When you say "possibility of disaster" are you talking about safety? Because I've never seen a safer run line. Everyone is scrutinized for safe behavior.

If you're talking about learning bad habits what specifically are you talking about? New shooters will often get an instructor assigned to them to get them on the right track. Countless times I've seen groups of folks where by the end of the weekend the "new" shooter is out shooting the one with experience. This happens because bad habits are harder to unlearn than doing it right from the start. No we aren't teaching bad habits.

As for those that don't come back Sunday, I'd say 75% that don't (and that's typically only a handful) are because they weren't registered for Sunday to begin with not because they were disappointed or frustrated. Others are usually people that are just physically worn out. Most people aren't used to being out in the elements all day let alone doing field positions. It is hard for a lot of people and although we don't make them, most people insist on trying. Extreme weather is certainly another reason. Last month I had only seven of thirteen return on Sunday during that whiteout blizzard.

As for your challenge... There is no focus on marketing only to new shooters. Do I want every new shooter to come to an Appleseed? Yes, just as I want every shooter on this forum to come to an Appleseed. We want EVERBODY.

As for the time. Shooters are learning a different and important skill. The fact is that 90% of the people that show up are not brand new, and we'd be remiss to limit their instruction. As a crash course in Rifle marksmanship fundamentals why water it down? New shooters that aren't grasping a concept are encouraged to continue working on that until they are comfortable with it. Positions are a example of this. Some newbies will stay in prone or even on a sandbag to get trigger and breath control down first. I've never seen an example of a new shooter that needed individual attention not get it.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I've got a challenge for you. 220-230? Why are you not an instructor? We have a country to save and we could use your help.</span>

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Excellent observations & questions, Chainsaw.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chainsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
First a question or two for you. When you say "possibility of disaster" are you talking about safety? Because I've never seen a safer run line. Everyone is scrutinized for safe behavior.
</div></div>
Disaster - the possibility of souring a new shooter. We need every responsible American we can get.
Also, I will agree with you - Appleseed runs a tight shop with regard to safety. Props to the program and the instructors for that.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chainsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you're talking about learning bad habits what specifically are you talking about? New shooters will often get an instructor assigned to them to get them on the right track. Countless times I've seen groups of folks where by the end of the weekend the "new" shooter is out shooting the one with experience. This happens because bad habits are harder to unlearn than doing it right from the start. No we aren't teaching bad habits.
</div></div>
You are right - Appleseed does not teach bad habits. Some students who get left behind in the larger shoots do develop bad habits, and also get frustrated. Remove or lengthen the time constraints on the middle two portions of the AQT and this gets dramatically reduced.
You are also right that you see more shooters that come in with bad habits. Generally, those are the folks helped the most by Appleseed... when they come in with a teachable attitude.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chainsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As for those that don't come back Sunday, I'd say 75% that don't (and that's typically only a handful) are because they weren't registered for Sunday to begin with not because they were disappointed or frustrated. </div></div>
Why doesn't Appleseed report that, then. Any request I've ever seen for pre-registration numbers don't get answered. All of the folks I've communicated with (over 50 individuals) that did not attend the second day were registered for it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chainsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Others are usually people that are just physically worn out. Most people aren't used to being out in the elements all day let alone doing field positions. It is hard for a lot of people and although we don't make them, most people insist on trying. Extreme weather is certainly another reason. Last month I had only seven of thirteen return on Sunday during that whiteout blizzard.</div></div>
Another reason to lengthen the time for the two middle portions of the AQT.
Also, severe weather would be the least applicable. I would not expect anyone to show up in extreme weather... BUT... That also don't cut it here in the South - we have yet to see a tornado at an Appleseed to my knowledge!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chainsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As for your challenge... There is no focus on marketing only to new shooters. Do I want every new shooter to come to an Appleseed? Yes, just as I want every shooter on this forum to come to an Appleseed. We want EVERBODY.
</div></div>
While that may be the case, I am always seeing Appleseed instructors pushing to bring new shooters to teach them how to shoot. Folks that don't know any better will bring friends/family that have never shot before. That's when the "fun" begins.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chainsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As for the time. Shooters are learning a different and important skill. The fact is that 90% of the people that show up are not brand new, and we'd be remiss to limit their instruction. As a crash course in Rifle marksmanship fundamentals why water it down?</div></div>
I am not suggesting water it down. I am suggesting adding 30 seconds to two timed portions. If you really want, experienced shooters should have a separate part to shoot the AQT under the current rules. But what does it hurt the program to add 60 seconds, total, to the whole AQT? 60 seconds? Seriously?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chainsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
New shooters that aren't grasping a concept are encouraged to continue working on that until they are comfortable with it. Positions are a example of this. Some newbies will stay in prone or even on a sandbag to get trigger and breath control down first. I've never seen an example of a new shooter that needed individual attention not get it.
</div></div>
We certainly need you at more shoots, then. I have plenty of documentation of many people not getting individual instruction... there just aren't enough Appleseed instructors. And remember, for each person that complains about it, there are ten more that felt the same way and said nothing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chainsaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">I've got a challenge for you. 220-230? Why are you not an instructor? We have a country to save and we could use your help.</span>
</div></div>
Challenge accepted.
First, gotta make the 220-230 official at an event. Planning to do that this spring.
Also, no excuse, but I am President of a major Martial Arts Organization (over 1500 members). That, plus a regular full time job is a bit time consuming.


Thanks for the dialog, Chainsaw. It is refreshing to see someone who doesn't take it personally, or have knee-jerk reactions to the legitimate criticisms.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Was just notified that my AQT targets have been shipped. Was told they would arrive in 2 to 3 days. It'd be nice if they showed up on Friday or Saturday. Regardless, looking forward to putting them to use.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

If you don't have rapid fire strings to shoot, you do not learn to shoot rapid fire.
An extra 30 seconds would take the pressure off shooters and allow them more time to "fuss" their shots.
The NPOA combined with fireing at respitory pause works. the short firing strings proves the method.
If a shooter insits on shooting a single shot they have my admiration.
Bolt guns are harder than semi-auto for rapid fire, but with practice it is do-able, and a feather in the cap of the shooter.

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clodhopper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you don't have rapid fire strings to shoot, you do not learn to shoot rapid fire.
An extra 30 seconds would take the pressure off shooters and allow them more time to "fuss" their shots.
The NPOA combined with fireing at respitory pause works. the short firing strings proves the method.
If a shooter insits on shooting a single shot they have my admiration.
Bolt guns are harder than semi-auto for rapid fire, but with practice it is do-able, and a feather in the cap of the shooter. </div></div>
Sorry, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on this one. 90 Seconds to fire 10 shots with either a mag change or a bolt gun for a new shooter is still not quite enough to get them to a point where they can fuss a shot.

For you & me... yes, most certainly could happen.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

"new" shooters become seasoned shooters pretty fast, after a couple appleseeds.

 

[tdow]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

I'm also an Appleseed instructor. Newer shooters do sometimes struggle with the time issue. There's a ton of information for someone new to absorb, and sometimes the introduction of time can almost be too much.

But a Rifleman persists.

Some shooters might get a bad taste in their mouth and not return. It takes a willingness to subordinate the ego to an honest desire to learn to succeed at anything diffucult. You have to be willing to move outside the comfort zone to see any changes. The person who doesn't keep trying will always find an excuse to quit when things get difficult.

Part of the challenge of the AQT is the time. It's factored in. What would be the accomplishment (or the fun) in making Rifleman with all the time in the world to do it? Part of what we consider to be a standard tool in the box is the ability to shoot accurately in a rapid fire cadence. It tells you that your position is correct.

Getting back to the original topic, a bolt gunner can most definitely make the times. It only takes about a second to work the bolt. You can return to your natural point of aim after working the bolt if you do it right. If you breath while you do that, there's not really any time being wasted.

Also, if you consider that you have more than ample time in the standing and slow fire prone courses, just shoot a perfect score there, and you can easily afford not to get a couple shots off in the timed portions

I recommend the Savage MkII with the heavy barrel and Williams aperture sights. Add a sling and shoot.

 

[Precision32]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

I used my 10-22 to make Rifleman, then tried it with my Remington 521T, five shot bolt gun.

The only problem with the %21 is getting the mag to drop during the mag change. If you work at it you can do it with a bolt gun.

The idea of Appleseed in not to make Rifleman out of a new, first time shooter, in one or two days. No program can do that. But we (I'm an Instructor myself) can give them the basics of good marksmanship to take home with them to practice. They will improve with practice and come back for their Rifleman patch. Everything takes practice. If you make it too easy, it means nothing.

I've trained a lot of people in a lot of different fields. It's a LOT easier to train someone with NO training then it is to UNTRAIN someone with bad instruction as their first teaching.

And the new guys have a blast. I work as a "roving" one on one instructor at most shoots. I've trained kids and women that have never fired a shot in their lives. They all went home happy and shot a whole lot better when they left then when they came.

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

tdow, you make some good points. I offer some food for thought... from the perspective of a 25-year instructor in the martial arts.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tdow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm also an Appleseed instructor. Newer shooters do sometimes struggle with the time issue. There's a ton of information for someone new to absorb, and sometimes the introduction of time can almost be too much.

But a Rifleman persists.</div></div>
Many 'instructors' hide behind phrases like this (and I am NOT saying you do that, tdow) to explain -away their own inability to instruct. It is my experience that [when somebody seeks another person out for instruction] over 99% of students are not bad students... they just have less than ideal instructors.
It is much easier for an instructor to make this excuse than to objectively look at stumbling blocks in the learning process and overcome those.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tdow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Some shooters might get a bad taste in their mouth and not return. It takes a willingness to subordinate the ego to an honest desire to learn to succeed at anything difficult. You have to be willing to move outside the comfort zone to see any changes. The person who doesn't keep trying will always find an excuse to quit when things get difficult.
</div></div>
Again, an instructor who continues to use this line of reasoning is making up for a lack of personal ability in the teaching arts. Again - I am NOT saying you are doing this, tdow, but this phrase is little more than an excuse that is really not relevant.
A good instructor finds out why the student is not catching on and then takes remedial steps to bring the student up to speed. This is easier said than done.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tdow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Part of the challenge of the AQT is the time. It's factored in. What would be the accomplishment (or the fun) in making Rifleman with all the time in the world to do it? Part of what we consider to be a standard tool in the box is the ability to shoot accurately in a rapid fire cadence. It tells you that your position is correct.
</div></div>
Agreed. That's why I never suggest the removal of the time limits... just lengthening the tougher ones for the newer shooters. Or, require shooters pass a proficiency test to attend and keep it as is. I think it would be easier to add 30 seconds.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tdow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Getting back to the original topic, a bolt gunner can most definitely make the times. It only takes about a second to work the bolt. You can return to your natural point of aim after working the bolt if you do it right. If you breath while you do that, there's not really any time being wasted.
</div></div>
Agreed. But don't mislead a newer shooter into thinking he can do that in a 2-day course. Tell him to get a semi-auto. That's my point.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tdow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also, if you consider that you have more than ample time in the standing and slow fire prone courses, just shoot a perfect score there, and you can easily afford not to get a couple shots off in the timed portions

</div></div>
I am going to have to call you on this one. Not possible for the newer shooters and you know it. Experienced shooters do not complain about the time limits hindering them (they never hindered me), because as we all agree, an experienced shooter will get the AQT done with time to spare.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tdow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I recommend the Savage MkII with the heavy barrel and Williams aperture sights. Add a sling and shoot. </div></div>
Good choice!

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

When there are ample fireing lines and no shortage of instructors appleseed just may instutite a no shooter left behind policy. Join us in appleseed Usagi, we can all learn better ways.

 

[tdow]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Usagi,

I don't want to leave the impression that we don't care about beginners and would just leave them behind because they're too difficult.

Most new shooters have a good experience and learn a lot. Most of the beginners that show up have teachable attitudes. They are willing to go outside their comfort zones and usually make significant progress. Most are willing to receive instruction and modify what they're doing accordingly. I would say that 97% of shooters fall into this category.

We want to give them a foundation, a basic set of tools they can leave with, and an understanding of what the "standard" is and where they are currently in relation to it. It's unrealistic for a new shooter to think they're going to make Rifleman the first time, but if they came to learn they will leave a better shooter.

I know that I'm not a perfect instructor and I when I can't get someone to improve I do go home wondering what I might have done to reach them. Among the instructors I have worked with at Appleseeds, there is a genuine desire to help. We all get frustrated with some people sometimes, but we try. There are some people who, no matter how hard you try, or how many instructors get down next to them and try to help, just don't seem interested in listening. I will keep trying.

In my opinion, changing the time limits on the AQT would be like giving trophies to everyone. Reaching a high standard will most likely take more than one weekend, but most people will realize that they weren't born with a rifle in their hands. I would like them to leave determined to work to come back and make it.

We do try to accomodate whatever type of rifle the shooter brings. Obviously a single shot is going to be tough. But it has been done- by someone who kept coming back to try. On the other hand, if not being able to keep up on the AQT can convince someone to forego cable TV or eating out for a few months to upgrade their gear, I would say it's worth it.

I agree with you in that I wouldn't recommend a bolt action over a semi auto for a beginner. My standard recommendation for a beginner would be a semi-auto .22.

I wouldn't try to talk someone out of using a bolt action who really wanted to do that. If that's what they want, I would encourage them to try, impressing on them that it will be harder. Their journey may be a bit longer, but they might get more out of it, and I think will ultimately have greater satisfaction making Rifleman.

As for my comment about shooting the first and last stage with perfect scores, there was a bit of playful sarcasm implied

, but that's the strategy the single shot rifle shooter used to make Rifleman.

I do appreciate your comments.

 

[jnespappa]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tdow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Usagi,

I don't want to leave the impression that we don't care about beginners and would just leave them behind because they're too difficult.
</div></div>
Agreed. I used my 10/22 and my son used his fav. of my rifles, a bolt action, TUBE FED Marlin 981T. You might say that is the worst of both worlds for an AS event. He had to wait to load the tube, while we were loading prepped magazines. We both had leather, national match type slings rather than GI slings, but that didn't matter either. We just run what we brung. He still managed to get off 10 shots in the timed rounds on several occasions. He persisted, and steadily increased his score. Instructors were always on hand to review our targets and provide feedback during prep. times. Let's not forget the all important safety lessons and line/range safety that was drilled into us.

So, IMHO, a bolt action is fine for the basic point of an AS....to improve your marksmanship while, ?more importantly? re-learning about the sacrifices of so many brave British colonists made in/around April 19, 1775.

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tdow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I agree with you in that I wouldn't recommend a bolt action over a semi auto for a beginner. My standard recommendation for a beginner would be a semi-auto .22.

I wouldn't try to talk someone out of using a bolt action who really wanted to do that. If that's what they want, I would encourage them to try, impressing on them that it will be harder. Their journey may be a bit longer, but they might get more out of it, and I think will ultimately have greater satisfaction making Rifleman.
</div></div>

I think we see eye-to-eye on the most important points.

I wish more with the project would take moment or two to make good solid recommendations to potential new shooters.

Now a question with regards to my LTR:
Marlin 60 - scope & tech-sights. Speed loaders ready.

My plan is to get my patch with the scope. At this point, I am confident that is within my abilities.

Beyond that, I wish to shoot rifleman scores with an increasing degree of difficulty:
1) With tech sights (hard for me - astigmatism)
2) Tech sights and no sling.
3) With a Ruger 10/22!

4) Eventually - a bolt action.

What suggestions would you offer? What things would you do differently? Why?

 

[Camo_Cowboy]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

So what would be the "Ideal" factory stock rifle to take? I have a Ruger 10/22, a Marlin M60, and am looking at a Sig 522. I know of the loading issues with the tube fed Marlin. Out of all the Marlin seems to be the most accurate.

 

[clodhopper]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

The ideal appleseed rifle is the one you own, the one in your closet.
If you have a whole battery of rifles, the best choice would be semi-auto clip fed with sling and sights adjusted so you can see through them in prone standing and sitting.
The accuracy of most rifles are more than enough for appleseed.
The patch can be won with a rifle that shoots inside of 4MOA.
Most any rifle is up to the task, appleseed teaches the shooter to be up to the task.

 

[JoeMartin]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Camo_Cowboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what would be the "Ideal" factory stock rifle to take? I have a Ruger 10/22, a Marlin M60, and am looking at a Sig 522. I know of the loading issues with the tube fed Marlin. Out of all the Marlin seems to be the most accurate. </div></div>

From the testing I've done I'd go with the Ruger 10/22, or the Marlin 795. Aperture Sights are available for both from;

http://www.tech-sights.com/

If going with the Marlin 795 - Numrich has wood replacement stocks at a reasonable price. I like wood stocks.

Either will get the job done from 25 meters.

 

[retrieverman]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Maybe I missed it, but does anyone use an AR-15 with a 22 conversion for Appleseed shoots?

In my experience, my AR with a 22 conversion is just a accurate and reliable as any of the 10/22's that I have owned.

 

[tjscheller]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

Overall, bad news. Lots of folks try only to be disappointed.
I don't think I've seen one make it through a whole weekend without the owner giving up and using another rifle. I think 600+ rounds is too much to ask without knowing <span style="font-style: italic">exactly</span> what ammo, cleaning and lube combination works best in the conversion.

 

[Usagi]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: retrieverman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe I missed it, but does anyone use an AR-15 with a 22 conversion for Appleseed shoots?

In my experience, my AR with a 22 conversion is just a accurate and reliable as any of the 10/22's that I have owned. </div></div>

I've spoken with several shoot-bosses. Here's their take:
- shooters using .22 conversions do not often shoot rifleman. Not accurate enough because of the 1/9 or 1/7 twist. (think about it, most accurate .22LR platforms are 1/16 twists).
- Frequent malfunctions. (of course, this could be said of the 10/22 as well!

)
- Buy a cheap 10/22 or Marlin 795 and use it as a trainer. Heck, the 795 bought new - with mags, sling, tech-sights, and ammo is under $200.

 

[Shiraz]

Re: Appleseed Project - Liberty Training Rifle

A TacSol or Spikes dedicated upper or a S&W MP15-22, Sig 522 may be the way to go if you can get them dialed in for accuracy.