ok here is my issue... i enjoy the 16 in heavy barrel Ar that I have now, but it is lacking the accuracy. Is it worth it to swap out the heavy barrel to a bull barrel or should i just go with a new upper reciever with the barrel? Too many options. As a background i have shot NRA matches, USMC matches and i plink every weekend. My budget is 1400 for upgrades and Glass. I do reload but with my set up now i can only get 1.5 moa. I would like to stick with the 5.56/223 so i dont have to keep changing ammo. I would like to find a set up that is accurate from 5m to 500m plus.
Ar-15 build options
- Thread starter wolfpack0313
- Start date
Barrel weight/contour is not, in and of itself, determinative of a rifle's (including an AR's) accuracy or lack thereof. Similarly, one mfg's 16" heavy barrel may be complete shite in comparison to another mfg's (same for a "heavy" vs. a "bull" barrel).
What are the specifics of your current setup (beyond simply saying its a 16" heavy barrel which is pretty meaningless)? (i.e. - barrel mfg? twist? gas system length? what trigger are you running? what ammo? optic/mount/rings? so on and so forth?)
That's a good start to see where you stand now and what, if anything, might be most helpful in getting you the most accuracy/reliability out of your setup for the goals you have in mind with it.
What are the specifics of your current setup (beyond simply saying its a 16" heavy barrel which is pretty meaningless)? (i.e. - barrel mfg? twist? gas system length? what trigger are you running? what ammo? optic/mount/rings? so on and so forth?)
That's a good start to see where you stand now and what, if anything, might be most helpful in getting you the most accuracy/reliability out of your setup for the goals you have in mind with it.
I have tried wolf 55g fmj (just to plink) Hornady Zombie 55 and 62g (1.2 moa group) m855 ball (1.5 moa) pmc 55fmj (2moa) its a 16 in 1-9 twist Stag arms upper and barrel, Troy free float hand rail and gas block DI gas system. Kaiser defense lower, YHM break. The hand loads i have had are iffy but i need to tweak them. As far as optic i tried a few different scopes (nothing great) and iron sights and all my results are about the same so im guessing its the gun (granted 1.5 moa isnt bad for a 16in ar) but i want more... I plan on a Timney trigger and a new optic and mount (not sure what yet) but most of the issue probably lies in the barrel and ammo itself.
Well...all of the ammo you have listed is hardly "match" quality or otherwise capable of achieving precision levels of accuracy. The reported average of 1.5MOA that you are experiencing is par for the course with the ammo listed out of your setup. Similarly, Stag's basic AR barrels in my experience are about a half-a-heartbeat away from being glorified tomato stakes in terms of their ability to produce precision levels of accuracy (which it sounds like that's what you are after) and a 1:9 twist, while it'll work ok for 55gr ball and bullet weights in/around that range, I would move up to a slightly faster twist (1:8 or faster) and I would run heavier, match quality ammo/reloads 69gr to 77gr pills of your choice (which should not only help with accuracy, but also with performance at extended ranges).
Before I would go upgrading to a new barrel, I would first go ahead and get rid of the stock trigger and move to the Timney you mentioned (if you want a single-stage) or a Geissele (for a 2-stage). That should be a BIG improvement in and of itself. A quality optic and mount and/or rings is also a worthwhile investment that you'll be able to use with the rifle regardless of the barrel you have on it. I cannot stress the importance of a quality mount or rings when putting any optic on an AR, as well as properly mounting said optic. Also, get yourself some quality factory ammo that is proven capable of producing the highest levels of accuracy across a wide range of platforms (i.e. - Black Hills, FGGM, SW Ammo, Corbon, etc.). Once you have all of the pieces put together and you can dedicate some quality range time to testing your rifle, then you can make the call as to whether you want/need to rebarrel based on your results.
If you end up going down the rebarreling road, then there are a host of different barrel options depending on what you ultimately want/need and how much you are willing to spend. You'll also need to factor in, if you don't plan on doing the work yourself, how much it will cost to get your upper into the hands of a qualified smith to have the barrel swapped out. If you aren't doing the work/don't have the necessary tools for the job, you can get a smith like Steve and the guys from ADCO to do a simple disassemble/reassemble with a new barrel job for ~$100 including shipping both ways.
Before I would go upgrading to a new barrel, I would first go ahead and get rid of the stock trigger and move to the Timney you mentioned (if you want a single-stage) or a Geissele (for a 2-stage). That should be a BIG improvement in and of itself. A quality optic and mount and/or rings is also a worthwhile investment that you'll be able to use with the rifle regardless of the barrel you have on it. I cannot stress the importance of a quality mount or rings when putting any optic on an AR, as well as properly mounting said optic. Also, get yourself some quality factory ammo that is proven capable of producing the highest levels of accuracy across a wide range of platforms (i.e. - Black Hills, FGGM, SW Ammo, Corbon, etc.). Once you have all of the pieces put together and you can dedicate some quality range time to testing your rifle, then you can make the call as to whether you want/need to rebarrel based on your results.
If you end up going down the rebarreling road, then there are a host of different barrel options depending on what you ultimately want/need and how much you are willing to spend. You'll also need to factor in, if you don't plan on doing the work yourself, how much it will cost to get your upper into the hands of a qualified smith to have the barrel swapped out. If you aren't doing the work/don't have the necessary tools for the job, you can get a smith like Steve and the guys from ADCO to do a simple disassemble/reassemble with a new barrel job for ~$100 including shipping both ways.
I have to agree - the ammo is hardly Match spec. I went with a Wilson trigger on my AR and noted immediate reducton in goup sizes with all forms of ammo. I like it and have had no issues with the Wilson trigger, though it is a little pricey. You are free floated which is good. A barrel swap is easily accomplished, but if you don't try some decent match bullets, you aren't going to know. I know it is "only an AR" and don't expect you to turn your case necks, but try some Sierras or Bergers in match form in a variety of weights.
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I had the same upper as you have. It has a chrome-lined barrel which is not known for accuracy, but mine shot Hornady 55 and 60 gr VMax pretty well. I ended up taking the barrel off and replacing it with a 1:8" twist, 18" Black Hole Weaponry barrel that I really like. It will now shoot 1/2" groups with Hornady 75 gr HPBT. I also went with a Geiselle SSA-E trigger that really helps groups. If you want to go for accuracy, I recommend rebarreling to a 18-20" heavy or bull barrel from a reputable maker. There are many good ones to choose from. Also, a 3x9 or higher magnification scope with a fine reticle will help groups.
I know a lot of guys give me crap about how i always rave about bull barrel this that and the other, but i really dont give a shit.... In my experience shooting AR's personally and especially after running two completely different shootout thread.... If you want a true precision rig for punching holes in paper or slapping steel then i would make sure it has a bull barrel.... And if you're going with 5.56 then i would personally get a 1:8 twist barrel so you can run up to 80gr bullets properly (usually will not be able to go over 75ish grain due to mag restrictions).... Big fan of 20" and no less than 18". if a true trunk to bench rig then maybe consider 24". i know my stupid little shoot out threads are not scientific fact BUT i dont think it coincidence that the top contenders on two completely separate shootout threads are usually running bull barreled AR's. that is just a fact and not some bs thrown against the wall. I love my LMT and i consider it more of a mixture between a battle rifle and precision rig = Designated marksman rifle, but with that said it is not even close to my bull barreled rock river arms varmint rifle in terms of accuracy. I have more than enough proof to back up this statement. If im going for accuracy under 400 yards my rock river varmint is my go to rifle.... Now going over 400 yards plus id consider either 308 for cheapness of reloading and banging steel... Or a true precision rig with a bull barrel 6creed or 260 if money is not an issue in terms of reloading.
Oh btw... If you think you could go over 500yards you will most likely not want the 5.56 especially if you think youre going to be banging steel.... 5.56 really starts to drop like a rock after 450ish yards and the ft lbs for banging steel really drops after 400ish yards unless youre runing the heaviest grn bullet you can run in a semi auto mag.
Oh btw... If you think you could go over 500yards you will most likely not want the 5.56 especially if you think youre going to be banging steel.... 5.56 really starts to drop like a rock after 450ish yards and the ft lbs for banging steel really drops after 400ish yards unless youre runing the heaviest grn bullet you can run in a semi auto mag.
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So for 1400 im looking at doing a timney or wilson combat trigger (270 ish) for a mount Im gonna get a Larue tactical or American Defense quick detach 1 piece mount (250). The rest is gonna be split up for a scope and barrel (leupold patrol 3-9 vortex pst 2.5-10 or swfa 3-9 possibly a Nightforce if i can find one). As far as barrels go 18-20in bull what brands are good i know krieger but what do you use?
And as far as ammo ill have to order some better stuff (gonna be in japan for a few more months) so i might as well get the parts ready and just wait to get the ammo.
1) It shouldn't cost you anywhere NEAR $270 for a quality trigger. The Timney 3lb, solid small pin triggers run ~$215. Places like MidwayUSA regularly have $20 off orders of $200 or more, so you should be able to snag one for ~$200 delivered. That takes your total budget down to ~$1200.
2) Your optic mount selection is up to you, but unless you HAVE TO HAVE QD capability, skip it and just get a quality set of 30mm rings. I see a lot of guys running QD mounts on optics that will NEVER get removed/reinstalled in their lifetime. Sure...its nice to have them, but I see them being used more for the tacticool factor that out of necessity on most occasions. If you got the Am Def route...that's ~$150-175. Larue will be ~$200. OR...a quality set of 30mm AR high rings will run you ~$120 (Seekins alloy) to $150 (Badger steel). So that takes your remaining budget down to somewhere between ~$1000-1080.
3) Of the scopes you have listed, I'd skip the NF unless you just have more money to add to the budget because even if you find a deal on a good used one, it'll blow through nearly all (or all and then some) of your $1400 budget. Of the remaining, both the SWFA 3-9x and the Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x44 are quality selections. Call that another ~$600 (maybe a little cheaper used or if you find a deal on the Vortex through a Hide vendor) so that leaves you ~$400-480 for a barrel (not counting any money you'll spend on ammo, reloading supplies, etc.).
For $400, you can get a VERY high quality AR barrel in the 16"-18" range (or longer if your heart so desires). There are ample options from White Oak Armament (WOA), Rainier Arms (Select, Match and Ultramatch barrels)...the list really goes on and on.
If you must have QD mounts then so be it, but i dont think ill ever purchase QD mounts again.... Once i get a scope zerod on my rifle i hate taking it off unless it is a must... Yes, i have a QD larue lt158 mount on my LMT but it is due to being a true DMR type set up. I have never taken my scope off my LMT especially with my RTS offset iron sights. All of my other ar's have fixed mounts. I personally would get a 1pc non qd scope mount... About the only time ive ran separate rings is on my EOP (elevated optics platform) AR, then i used some ultra low vortex / seekins rings, but otherwise i personally would get a 1pc mount non QD mount and save your money and invest it into the barrel, trigger, and better scope,,,,,, or maybe some nice RTS offset irons sights.
Timney run low $200's. I got one a few months ago on a group buy on PM for $172. You can make it fine with a Burris PEPR mount also. I have several with no problems at about $79. I prefer the non QD in that though. If QD the ADM is better and cheaper than Larue (Larue is good stuff though). I'll 2nd on the Vortex Viper scope. Also, I have been able to get good results from Black Hills ammo. Even was able to place in Elf's last challenge with BH reman ammo. Another barrel to consider is a Lilja- I have one in 223 and 308- nice barrels.
