I bought a Daniel Defense light upper in 16" I have tried 3 optics on the gun now and ALL shoot at least 3 mil right from poa. So the barrel or rail is not straight. Is 3 mil at 100yds an acceptable level of screw up?
AR barrel alignment question
- Thread starter problemchild
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Re: AR barrel alignment question
3 mils right of POA?
What are you basing the 3 mills right off of? Its normal for your scope NOT to be in its center adjustment right and left..
3 mils right of POA?
What are you basing the 3 mills right off of? Its normal for your scope NOT to be in its center adjustment right and left..
Re: AR barrel alignment question
I don't understand...
It seems obvious to me that the optic isn't zero'd?
3 mils to the right from POA.... adjust your windage to POA=POI, or 3 mils right.
Or is the optic zero'd and confirmed at 100? If it is then the optic may be bad? I also assume that it's a magnified scope since you're calling shots in mils?
I don't understand...
It seems obvious to me that the optic isn't zero'd?
3 mils to the right from POA.... adjust your windage to POA=POI, or 3 mils right.
Or is the optic zero'd and confirmed at 100? If it is then the optic may be bad? I also assume that it's a magnified scope since you're calling shots in mils?
Re: AR barrel alignment question
Sorry I guess I stated the error incorrectly.
I centered all 3 optics (NF 3x15, Acog, SB) in the middle of their clicks. Example 100 clicks total elevation so I put that at 50. Same for windage and adjustments on all 3 optics.
When I install the optics all 3 shoot exactly the same place. Or the rifle shoots the same place with all 3 optics mounted which is 3 mils left. The barrel or rail is not zero'd with each other on the gun if all 3 optics, mounted to the rifle, shoot to the same place which is off the left of the target frame.
When I stick a caliper in the end of the rail and measure the gap from one side of the barrel to rail and then the opposing side they are NOT equal. The barrel or rail is not straight to each other.
Sorry I guess I stated the error incorrectly.
I centered all 3 optics (NF 3x15, Acog, SB) in the middle of their clicks. Example 100 clicks total elevation so I put that at 50. Same for windage and adjustments on all 3 optics.
When I install the optics all 3 shoot exactly the same place. Or the rifle shoots the same place with all 3 optics mounted which is 3 mils left. The barrel or rail is not zero'd with each other on the gun if all 3 optics, mounted to the rifle, shoot to the same place which is off the left of the target frame.
When I stick a caliper in the end of the rail and measure the gap from one side of the barrel to rail and then the opposing side they are NOT equal. The barrel or rail is not straight to each other.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
Ok.
Read what Glenn (heatseekins) said above at the end of his reply.
To add, any scope with any rifle will usually not be POI=POA with the scope in its optical center. If by some chance it is then that is great, but highly doubtful. Which is why we zero and confirm it.
You need to bring your windage 3 mils to POI. This has nothing to do with the barrel and/or rail not being straight at all. Your barrel and rail are as straight as can be.
It's actually pretty good that your elevation is good with the scope in it's optical center.
Ok.
Read what Glenn (heatseekins) said above at the end of his reply.
To add, any scope with any rifle will usually not be POI=POA with the scope in its optical center. If by some chance it is then that is great, but highly doubtful. Which is why we zero and confirm it.
You need to bring your windage 3 mils to POI. This has nothing to do with the barrel and/or rail not being straight at all. Your barrel and rail are as straight as can be.
It's actually pretty good that your elevation is good with the scope in it's optical center.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When I stick a caliper in the end of the rail and measure the gap from one side of the barrel to rail and then the opposing side they are NOT equal. The barrel or rail is not straight to each other. </div></div>
Most aren't equal. It's perfectly normal.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When I stick a caliper in the end of the rail and measure the gap from one side of the barrel to rail and then the opposing side they are NOT equal. The barrel or rail is not straight to each other. </div></div>
Most aren't equal. It's perfectly normal.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
I would accept it to be a little off, maybe one mil, but 3 mils seems like a lot. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 3 mil is 10.8 inches at 100 yd.
I would accept it to be a little off, maybe one mil, but 3 mils seems like a lot. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 3 mil is 10.8 inches at 100 yd.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
I can compensate for the 3 mils easy enough. I just wondered if it was something to be concerned over or just move on?
The gun shoots fine and eats any ammo I give it so Im happy with the rifle.
I can compensate for the 3 mils easy enough. I just wondered if it was something to be concerned over or just move on?
The gun shoots fine and eats any ammo I give it so Im happy with the rifle.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
Funny how things on the internet get misunderstood so easily.
Just asking one more time in a different way.
3 optics all when centered before mounting to this rifle gets my bullet impact in the same place which is 11 inches to the side at 100 yards.
Is a rifle that shoots 11 inches off to the side NORMAL and acceptable?
My LMT shot 2 inches low and 2 inches right as a comparison with a centered scope freshly mounted.
Mr other AR was 6 low and 3 left for another comparison.
Funny how things on the internet get misunderstood so easily.
Just asking one more time in a different way.
3 optics all when centered before mounting to this rifle gets my bullet impact in the same place which is 11 inches to the side at 100 yards.
Is a rifle that shoots 11 inches off to the side NORMAL and acceptable?
My LMT shot 2 inches low and 2 inches right as a comparison with a centered scope freshly mounted.
Mr other AR was 6 low and 3 left for another comparison.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
The upper reciever needs to be faced if it bothers you. if not... drive on. it's really common on the AR platform.
The upper reciever needs to be faced if it bothers you. if not... drive on. it's really common on the AR platform.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny how things on the internet get misunderstood so easily.
Just asking one more time in a different way.
3 optics all when centered before mounting to this rifle gets my bullet impact in the same place which is 11 inches to the side at 100 yards.
Is a rifle that shoots 11 inches off to the side NORMAL and acceptable?
My LMT shot 2 inches low and 2 inches right as a comparison with a centered scope freshly mounted.
Mr other AR was 6 low and 3 left for another comparison. </div></div>
I understood perfectly fine the first time.
I along with others that replied said it is normal, however that is our opinion. If you still feel in your gut that something is wrong then just send the upper back to Daniel Defense so they can give it a look over.
Yes 10.8 inches windage at 100 seems like a lot but with the scope in its optical center, I still think that is pretty damn good. Besides if you hadn't put the scope in its optical center then you wouldn't have noticed anything to begin with. It's like looking down a bore with a borescope, if the rifle is shooting fine why even contaminate your mind with seeing all the throat erosion, copper fouling, and pitting in the bore? Curiosity kills the cat in that instance, most of the time.
Now if you said the rifle in question shot 11 inches left then the next shot went 10 inches right, then 20 inches high, I'd say there might be something wrong. Such is not the case.
So if it were my rifle I'd just dial the windage so POI=POA, zero out the turrets and enjoy shooting. Thats if it were mine, but it's not so its your call. Hope this helps.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny how things on the internet get misunderstood so easily.
Just asking one more time in a different way.
3 optics all when centered before mounting to this rifle gets my bullet impact in the same place which is 11 inches to the side at 100 yards.
Is a rifle that shoots 11 inches off to the side NORMAL and acceptable?
My LMT shot 2 inches low and 2 inches right as a comparison with a centered scope freshly mounted.
Mr other AR was 6 low and 3 left for another comparison. </div></div>
I understood perfectly fine the first time.
I along with others that replied said it is normal, however that is our opinion. If you still feel in your gut that something is wrong then just send the upper back to Daniel Defense so they can give it a look over.
Yes 10.8 inches windage at 100 seems like a lot but with the scope in its optical center, I still think that is pretty damn good. Besides if you hadn't put the scope in its optical center then you wouldn't have noticed anything to begin with. It's like looking down a bore with a borescope, if the rifle is shooting fine why even contaminate your mind with seeing all the throat erosion, copper fouling, and pitting in the bore? Curiosity kills the cat in that instance, most of the time.
Now if you said the rifle in question shot 11 inches left then the next shot went 10 inches right, then 20 inches high, I'd say there might be something wrong. Such is not the case.
So if it were my rifle I'd just dial the windage so POI=POA, zero out the turrets and enjoy shooting. Thats if it were mine, but it's not so its your call. Hope this helps.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pupdawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...And why am I the only one replying in here? Doesn't anyone read the semiauto section of this place? haha </div></div>
Maybe because how often have you found centr'ing a scope equates to a perfect zero?
To me that would be like winning the lottery - great if it happens but not something you'd want to rely on happening.
I'd say forget about optical centre - just go and zero each optic to the rifle, reset turrets to 0 on the clock. Job done!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pupdawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...And why am I the only one replying in here? Doesn't anyone read the semiauto section of this place? haha </div></div>
Maybe because how often have you found centr'ing a scope equates to a perfect zero?
To me that would be like winning the lottery - great if it happens but not something you'd want to rely on happening.
I'd say forget about optical centre - just go and zero each optic to the rifle, reset turrets to 0 on the clock. Job done!
Re: AR barrel alignment question
As stated before, 11" @ 100yd is not that unheard of, you could stress, or adjust your windage and be done with it.
I have found that different ammo can cause your POI to change, sometimes 4 or 5 inches horizontal and vertical. This holds true when the loads are identical except for powder charge IE same case, bullet, primer and powder with varying powder weight.
As stated before, 11" @ 100yd is not that unheard of, you could stress, or adjust your windage and be done with it.
I have found that different ammo can cause your POI to change, sometimes 4 or 5 inches horizontal and vertical. This holds true when the loads are identical except for powder charge IE same case, bullet, primer and powder with varying powder weight.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
once zeroed at 100 do you need to keep adjusting windage for longer range other than for wind blowing??
once zeroed at 100 do you need to keep adjusting windage for longer range other than for wind blowing??
Re: AR barrel alignment question
You could try one of these. Just pop the barrel off and lap the face of the upper. I do this with all of my ARs. It seems to work well.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=810457
You could try one of these. Just pop the barrel off and lap the face of the upper. I do this with all of my ARs. It seems to work well.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=810457
Re: AR barrel alignment question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">once zeroed at 100 do you need to keep adjusting windage for longer range other than for wind blowing?? </div></div>
I feel its easier to reticle hold for windage and dial elevation. Unless you need to make a quick follow up shot then it helps to know your reticle hold for elevation.
Whether you choose to dial or hold for wind (windage) is entirely up to you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">once zeroed at 100 do you need to keep adjusting windage for longer range other than for wind blowing?? </div></div>
I feel its easier to reticle hold for windage and dial elevation. Unless you need to make a quick follow up shot then it helps to know your reticle hold for elevation.
Whether you choose to dial or hold for wind (windage) is entirely up to you.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pupdawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...And why am I the only one replying in here? Doesn't anyone read the semiauto section of this place? haha </div></div>
Maybe because how often have you found centr'ing a scope equates to a perfect zero?
To me that would be like winning the lottery - great if it happens but not something you'd want to rely on happening.
I'd say forget about optical centre - just go and zero each optic to the rifle, reset turrets to 0 on the clock. Job done! </div></div>
Exactly. This is what I've said on the first page. I've never had a scope be POA=POI or even close with the scope in its optical center of adjustment. Which is what I was trying to convey to the OP.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pupdawg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...And why am I the only one replying in here? Doesn't anyone read the semiauto section of this place? haha </div></div>
Maybe because how often have you found centr'ing a scope equates to a perfect zero?
To me that would be like winning the lottery - great if it happens but not something you'd want to rely on happening.
I'd say forget about optical centre - just go and zero each optic to the rifle, reset turrets to 0 on the clock. Job done! </div></div>
Exactly. This is what I've said on the first page. I've never had a scope be POA=POI or even close with the scope in its optical center of adjustment. Which is what I was trying to convey to the OP.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
A scope being zeroed? Nah. 3 scopes shooting to EXACTLY the same place, though, indicates a failure of perpendicularity in the action barrel fit.
If you want it fixed, you will have to do machine work. Is it broke? Not really. Is it perfectly right? Not really.
Or just sell the DD and get a Larue.
A scope being zeroed? Nah. 3 scopes shooting to EXACTLY the same place, though, indicates a failure of perpendicularity in the action barrel fit.
If you want it fixed, you will have to do machine work. Is it broke? Not really. Is it perfectly right? Not really.
Or just sell the DD and get a Larue.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
Unless it's noticeably out of square to the point that you can tell just by looking at it with the naked eye/in such a way that hampers function I'd leave it. Lapping it may or may not work not really worth the trouble for a carbine upper imo.
Unless it's noticeably out of square to the point that you can tell just by looking at it with the naked eye/in such a way that hampers function I'd leave it. Lapping it may or may not work not really worth the trouble for a carbine upper imo.
Re: AR barrel alignment question
Do you have the scope mounted so it bridges the upper receiver and the rail? If so, don't do that if it can be avoided. Rails are not meant to be attachment points for optics. The receiver should be in line with the barrel. Also bridging can lead to loss of zero as rails can flex much easier than the receiver.
What kind of rail do you have?
Do you have the scope mounted so it bridges the upper receiver and the rail? If so, don't do that if it can be avoided. Rails are not meant to be attachment points for optics. The receiver should be in line with the barrel. Also bridging can lead to loss of zero as rails can flex much easier than the receiver.
What kind of rail do you have?
