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Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
I've got three AR Grendels and don't feel limited in any manner, whether for medium game, accuracy out past 600 yds or for defensive purposes-it'll pretty much do a yeoman's job at all. 65Grendel.com has a wealth of information and a custom google search engine that speeds a search for most any questions you might have. Hornady 123 Amax factory round has generally excellent accuracy and Hornady has just released a 123gr SST specifically for larger game penetration. You might not find Grendel ammo on a Walmart shelf just yet, but if forum membership growth is any indication that shooters are beginning to recognize the Grendel as a very viable round, this may begin to change.. Obviously I have a preference for the Grendel, and it's nearest competitor is the 6.8 Remington, which is a good round as well, but begins seeing it's ballistic shortcomings at extended ranges. Check them both and decide if they fit your needs-they both suit the AR very well.
I've got three AR Grendels and don't feel limited in any manner, whether for medium game, accuracy out past 600 yds or for defensive purposes-it'll pretty much do a yeoman's job at all. 65Grendel.com has a wealth of information and a custom google search engine that speeds a search for most any questions you might have. Hornady 123 Amax factory round has generally excellent accuracy and Hornady has just released a 123gr SST specifically for larger game penetration. You might not find Grendel ammo on a Walmart shelf just yet, but if forum membership growth is any indication that shooters are beginning to recognize the Grendel as a very viable round, this may begin to change.. Obviously I have a preference for the Grendel, and it's nearest competitor is the 6.8 Remington, which is a good round as well, but begins seeing it's ballistic shortcomings at extended ranges. Check them both and decide if they fit your needs-they both suit the AR very well.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
The licensing issue held off it's momentum at a critical time. It is still a good caliber for extended range at steel & paper.
The 6.8 is about the same out to about 400. When The Grendel/.264LBC's BC takes over. The 6.8 does have more industry support.
I would mention, I wouldn't chance either at deer past 400 yards +/-.
It just comes down to your criteria.
The licensing issue held off it's momentum at a critical time. It is still a good caliber for extended range at steel & paper.
The 6.8 is about the same out to about 400. When The Grendel/.264LBC's BC takes over. The 6.8 does have more industry support.
I would mention, I wouldn't chance either at deer past 400 yards +/-.
It just comes down to your criteria.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
I have two 6.5 grendels. You can find ammo and brass for this caliber. A good choice for the AR platform.
I have two 6.5 grendels. You can find ammo and brass for this caliber. A good choice for the AR platform.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
The 6.5 Grendel is great, I would have one if someone would just make a left handed bolt to go in my left handed AR!
The 6.8 is plenty and with certain loads, can reach out pretty far, but you really can't beat a 6.5 in any form factor.
The 6.5 Grendel is great, I would have one if someone would just make a left handed bolt to go in my left handed AR!
The 6.8 is plenty and with certain loads, can reach out pretty far, but you really can't beat a 6.5 in any form factor.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
6.5 Grendel is where it's at! I have a 24" factory over watch from AA. I have a 2-10 NF on mine and this this thing is a machine. I run the 123 A-max but may soon be switching to the sst as mentioned above. Essentially you get 308 ballistics out of an AR-15 platform with no recoil and a lot less weight.
I wouldn't trade mine for an AR-10
Brandon
6.5 Grendel is where it's at! I have a 24" factory over watch from AA. I have a 2-10 NF on mine and this this thing is a machine. I run the 123 A-max but may soon be switching to the sst as mentioned above. Essentially you get 308 ballistics out of an AR-15 platform with no recoil and a lot less weight.
I wouldn't trade mine for an AR-10
Brandon
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
I have a 6.5 grendel that I like till I suppressed it. Now I love it. Went from shooting 2.5 inch groups at 200 to an inch at 200 with factory hornady. Also helps that my local gun shop keeps 6.5 grendel ammo on the shelf even though I am the only one who buys it. I over pay for the ammo but its always available and fun to just shoot 20 rounds for practice.
I have a 6.5 grendel that I like till I suppressed it. Now I love it. Went from shooting 2.5 inch groups at 200 to an inch at 200 with factory hornady. Also helps that my local gun shop keeps 6.5 grendel ammo on the shelf even though I am the only one who buys it. I over pay for the ammo but its always available and fun to just shoot 20 rounds for practice.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
I would say "yes" to the grendel. I built a 18" & live it. Like said above, it a great round for just about everything. Its a great round to suppress also. If you reload, there are plenty of different bullets to choose from. I love the 123 gn amax & 90 gn speer TNT's. Both very accurate at extended range.
I would say "yes" to the grendel. I built a 18" & live it. Like said above, it a great round for just about everything. Its a great round to suppress also. If you reload, there are plenty of different bullets to choose from. I love the 123 gn amax & 90 gn speer TNT's. Both very accurate at extended range.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
I love the Grendel. I also have a 6.8 as well. If I could only pick one or the other though I would pick the grendel. It is just so easy to reload for and make the loads shoot great groups. It also will carry a little futher on the range. I also have taken several deer with both calibers. But I love my Grendel. I am in the process of building one with a 16" barrel and then I will have two..!!!! Mine now has a 22" barrel. I then will have the best of both worlds.
I love the Grendel. I also have a 6.8 as well. If I could only pick one or the other though I would pick the grendel. It is just so easy to reload for and make the loads shoot great groups. It also will carry a little futher on the range. I also have taken several deer with both calibers. But I love my Grendel. I am in the process of building one with a 16" barrel and then I will have two..!!!! Mine now has a 22" barrel. I then will have the best of both worlds.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
There are several companies making complete rifles, as well as uppers and barrel/bolt combos:
Alexander Arms
Templar
JP Enterprises
Precision Firearms (complete uppers with cut-rifled barrels)
J&T Distributing
LAR
Colt announced their 6.5 Grendel rifle recently (they've been working on it for 2 years)
There are now 24 factory loads, and over 100 projectiles to choose from for hand-loading.
I built mine with a 16" AA barrel/bolt combo a few years ago. It's a fun little blaster to shoot distance with. Hornady just released the 123gr SST, to add to the 123gr AMAX-both of which were specifically designed for the Grendel.
There are several companies making complete rifles, as well as uppers and barrel/bolt combos:
Alexander Arms
Templar
JP Enterprises
Precision Firearms (complete uppers with cut-rifled barrels)
J&T Distributing
LAR
Colt announced their 6.5 Grendel rifle recently (they've been working on it for 2 years)
There are now 24 factory loads, and over 100 projectiles to choose from for hand-loading.
I built mine with a 16" AA barrel/bolt combo a few years ago. It's a fun little blaster to shoot distance with. Hornady just released the 123gr SST, to add to the 123gr AMAX-both of which were specifically designed for the Grendel.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
The 6.8 I put together myself. I got the barrel from Black Hole Weaponry and it is a shooter for sure. As for the Grendel I got used from a buddy and it was built by Scott Milkovich from Specialized Dynamics. It is a shooter as well. Scott seems pretty backed up right now but he would be glad to talk to you. Like stated Alexander Arms does complete uppers or guns. Also a lot of folks have builds from Mike at Dtech. I have not had him build me one yet but probably will at some time as they all seem to be real shooters. I currently have a build being built by Dan Carey. I am building it in 6 WOA and it will have a Shilen barrel. I have a 204 upper that he built as well using the same components and it is BORINGLY accurate. He also builds Grendels I think. (264 LBC).
The 6.8 I put together myself. I got the barrel from Black Hole Weaponry and it is a shooter for sure. As for the Grendel I got used from a buddy and it was built by Scott Milkovich from Specialized Dynamics. It is a shooter as well. Scott seems pretty backed up right now but he would be glad to talk to you. Like stated Alexander Arms does complete uppers or guns. Also a lot of folks have builds from Mike at Dtech. I have not had him build me one yet but probably will at some time as they all seem to be real shooters. I currently have a build being built by Dan Carey. I am building it in 6 WOA and it will have a Shilen barrel. I have a 204 upper that he built as well using the same components and it is BORINGLY accurate. He also builds Grendels I think. (264 LBC).
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
I'm waiting on a .264 bbl from ARP to finish my 264 gARP. I'll stick to my 6.8 rigs for hunting. The 264 will be more for LR fun such as killing paper and steel. With 6.5 Wolf Gold around $14/box and Hornady at $19/box, factory ammo is on par with the rest of them.
I might end up swaping the 264 bbl for a 6BR, if H gets some in.
I'm waiting on a .264 bbl from ARP to finish my 264 gARP. I'll stick to my 6.8 rigs for hunting. The 264 will be more for LR fun such as killing paper and steel. With 6.5 Wolf Gold around $14/box and Hornady at $19/box, factory ammo is on par with the rest of them.
I might end up swaping the 264 bbl for a 6BR, if H gets some in.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acc371</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The licensing issue held off it's momentum at a critical time. It is still a good caliber for extended range at steel & paper.
The 6.8 is about the same out to about 400. When The Grendel/.264LBC's BC takes over. The 6.8 does have more industry support.
I would mention, I wouldn't chance either at deer past 400 yards +/-.</div></div>
The licensing was one of the best moves AA did to keep the chamber standard, rather than let everyone and their brother make their own variation of it, which screws over compatibility and potential safety in everyone's guns. It really helped when Hornady submitted the cartridge to SAAMI, with the correct chamber drawings, and no confusion about what a Grendel chamber is.
The 14.5" Grendel overtakes the 16" 6.8 at 200yds for energy, and starts out with superior wind drift from the gate. You can see this especially with the 6.8 120gr SST (a great bullet/load BTW with a .400 G1 BC) and the new 6.5 123gr SST (.510 G1 BC). When both are fired from 16" barrels, the Grendel starts off with the advantage across the board.
Of course, the 16" Grendel has been doing this from the get-go with the 120gr class hunting pills in the .433-.458 BC range, like the Speer 120gr Hot Cor, Barnes 120gr TTSX, or 120gr NBT.
A Grendel owner shot an antelope this season at <span style="font-weight: bold">752yds</span> with the 123gr AMAX from a 22" Lilja-barreled upper that shoots 1/2 MOA consistently for him. He registered the shot on a 4" rock at 727yds before the antelope heard came along. It was a spine/lung shot DRT.
You also have Mark LaRue's Elk hunt from 2007 I think it was, where he dropped a nice bull at 405yds with the 120gr Barnes.
I'm actually enjoying all the selection of factory loads available now for the Grendel. The PPU 120gr MPT in brass cases is $12.95/box from Aimsurplus. Both Hornady and Precision Firearms are offering factory 123gr SST loaded ammo, with PF's load using Lapua brass.
The 123gr Silver Scenar load from PF has produced 7fps ES in my button-rifled AA 16", and is a very accurate load for me at .79" at 100yds for 4 rounds. 123gr AMAX has grouped into 1.69" at 200yds for me as well, best group. I'm happy, seeing how I spent $269 on the barrel/bolt combo.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acc371</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The licensing issue held off it's momentum at a critical time. It is still a good caliber for extended range at steel & paper.
The 6.8 is about the same out to about 400. When The Grendel/.264LBC's BC takes over. The 6.8 does have more industry support.
I would mention, I wouldn't chance either at deer past 400 yards +/-.</div></div>
The licensing was one of the best moves AA did to keep the chamber standard, rather than let everyone and their brother make their own variation of it, which screws over compatibility and potential safety in everyone's guns. It really helped when Hornady submitted the cartridge to SAAMI, with the correct chamber drawings, and no confusion about what a Grendel chamber is.
The 14.5" Grendel overtakes the 16" 6.8 at 200yds for energy, and starts out with superior wind drift from the gate. You can see this especially with the 6.8 120gr SST (a great bullet/load BTW with a .400 G1 BC) and the new 6.5 123gr SST (.510 G1 BC). When both are fired from 16" barrels, the Grendel starts off with the advantage across the board.
Of course, the 16" Grendel has been doing this from the get-go with the 120gr class hunting pills in the .433-.458 BC range, like the Speer 120gr Hot Cor, Barnes 120gr TTSX, or 120gr NBT.
A Grendel owner shot an antelope this season at <span style="font-weight: bold">752yds</span> with the 123gr AMAX from a 22" Lilja-barreled upper that shoots 1/2 MOA consistently for him. He registered the shot on a 4" rock at 727yds before the antelope heard came along. It was a spine/lung shot DRT.
You also have Mark LaRue's Elk hunt from 2007 I think it was, where he dropped a nice bull at 405yds with the 120gr Barnes.
I'm actually enjoying all the selection of factory loads available now for the Grendel. The PPU 120gr MPT in brass cases is $12.95/box from Aimsurplus. Both Hornady and Precision Firearms are offering factory 123gr SST loaded ammo, with PF's load using Lapua brass.
The 123gr Silver Scenar load from PF has produced 7fps ES in my button-rifled AA 16", and is a very accurate load for me at .79" at 100yds for 4 rounds. 123gr AMAX has grouped into 1.69" at 200yds for me as well, best group. I'm happy, seeing how I spent $269 on the barrel/bolt combo.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
I highly recommended against (as does Hornady) using a Hornady A-max on anything larger than antelope ....personally I wouldn't use it for that either...but that's another discussion ... at the recommendation of someone whomever I thought should know about these things...I used a 123gn A-max this year out of a 6.5 Creedmoor with VERY UNSATISFACTORY results... GREAT BULLET! Don't get me wrong! Just not for anything bigger than a coyote or paper.
About the Grendel. I have an AA 18" barrelled version that is awesome. Go for it...I doubt you'll be disappointed ...if you are unhappy ...someone will come along to buy it from you.
I highly recommended against (as does Hornady) using a Hornady A-max on anything larger than antelope ....personally I wouldn't use it for that either...but that's another discussion ... at the recommendation of someone whomever I thought should know about these things...I used a 123gn A-max this year out of a 6.5 Creedmoor with VERY UNSATISFACTORY results... GREAT BULLET! Don't get me wrong! Just not for anything bigger than a coyote or paper.
About the Grendel. I have an AA 18" barrelled version that is awesome. Go for it...I doubt you'll be disappointed ...if you are unhappy ...someone will come along to buy it from you.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
I can second, third, and 4th agree with all the comments above except Southpaw68. I love the grendel with the 123 Amax. I have killed several hundred hogs with this caliber and bullet, deer, coyotes, and anything else smaller.
But along with Southpaw68, there have been several times I had to shoot something twice with it, it does have limitations. But there are times I had to shoot something twice with the 308, 3006, 260, and 270. Even had a couple of times with the 300 Magnum...
I will always have a grendel.
I wish I had the grendel before I got the 300 Blackout. That caliber has been a disapointment from day one. Go Grendel....
I can second, third, and 4th agree with all the comments above except Southpaw68. I love the grendel with the 123 Amax. I have killed several hundred hogs with this caliber and bullet, deer, coyotes, and anything else smaller.
But along with Southpaw68, there have been several times I had to shoot something twice with it, it does have limitations. But there are times I had to shoot something twice with the 308, 3006, 260, and 270. Even had a couple of times with the 300 Magnum...
I will always have a grendel.
I wish I had the grendel before I got the 300 Blackout. That caliber has been a disapointment from day one. Go Grendel....
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
The 123 AMax was spec'd around the Grendel for a proper relationship of OAL, throat and magazine length, and may be it's optimal velocity range within Grendel's theoretical parameters, as well. Stick another 2-400fps on top of 2450-2500 from AR with a Creedmoor and bullets may not hold up well, especially in close. I get 2850 from a 6.5x47 without pushing at all with excellent accuracy to distance on steel, but that wouldn't be first choice for game. Hornady has never claimed the AMax is best hunting bullet, maybe that will fall to the new 123gr SST, but as said above, lots of game has fallen to well placed shots.
The 123 AMax was spec'd around the Grendel for a proper relationship of OAL, throat and magazine length, and may be it's optimal velocity range within Grendel's theoretical parameters, as well. Stick another 2-400fps on top of 2450-2500 from AR with a Creedmoor and bullets may not hold up well, especially in close. I get 2850 from a 6.5x47 without pushing at all with excellent accuracy to distance on steel, but that wouldn't be first choice for game. Hornady has never claimed the AMax is best hunting bullet, maybe that will fall to the new 123gr SST, but as said above, lots of game has fallen to well placed shots.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
I am pushing my 123 amax at 2565, but I look forward to trying hornadys superperformance ammo if they ever make it in the Grendel. That line seems to be resulting some amazing velocities. I had going over 2600 but accuracy suffered and pressure signs were evident.
24"
Lapua brass
123 amax
Rem 7.5 primer
8208 powder
I am pushing my 123 amax at 2565, but I look forward to trying hornadys superperformance ammo if they ever make it in the Grendel. That line seems to be resulting some amazing velocities. I had going over 2600 but accuracy suffered and pressure signs were evident.
24"
Lapua brass
123 amax
Rem 7.5 primer
8208 powder
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
There's a pretty good thread on 65Grendel.com right now about potential over gassing with 8208 in 24" barrels as you approach max. Pressure curve of CFE223 might allow you even a small gain in velocity without the pressure sensitivity of 8208 when near 100% loads. I've had good results with both, but might lean to CFE if wanting to spare wear/tear on brass, or drop back a couple of tenths on 8208 loads.
There's a pretty good thread on 65Grendel.com right now about potential over gassing with 8208 in 24" barrels as you approach max. Pressure curve of CFE223 might allow you even a small gain in velocity without the pressure sensitivity of 8208 when near 100% loads. I've had good results with both, but might lean to CFE if wanting to spare wear/tear on brass, or drop back a couple of tenths on 8208 loads.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
My daughter got her first cow elk with my 18" upper at 200 yds with the 120 TTSX bullets. Very large 10 year old that didn't want to go down with three through and through double lung shots. She only went 40 yds after it was over but elk are tough animals.
My daughter got her first cow elk with my 18" upper at 200 yds with the 120 TTSX bullets. Very large 10 year old that didn't want to go down with three through and through double lung shots. She only went 40 yds after it was over but elk are tough animals.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
My daughter got her first cow elk with my 18" upper at 200 yds with the 120 TTSX bullets. Very large 10 year old that didn't want to go down with three through and through double lung shots. She only went 40 yds after it was over but elk are tough animals.
My daughter got her first cow elk with my 18" upper at 200 yds with the 120 TTSX bullets. Very large 10 year old that didn't want to go down with three through and through double lung shots. She only went 40 yds after it was over but elk are tough animals.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
Rusty815
Had Templar Custom bore out a left handed Stag bolt for my daughters left handed rifle. Haven't shot it yet but will let you know. He would probably need a left handed bolt and maybe your barrel to headspace it. Just an option.
Skeeter
Rusty815
Had Templar Custom bore out a left handed Stag bolt for my daughters left handed rifle. Haven't shot it yet but will let you know. He would probably need a left handed bolt and maybe your barrel to headspace it. Just an option.
Skeeter
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
Yeah, there's no need to use the AMAX on more choice game than hogs and coyotes, now that we have the 123gr SST.
I think the lightest bullet I would want to use for hunting from my .260 Rem on medium game would be the 129gr SST, and I would prefer to run it at mild velocity to prevent fragmentation, especially on closer shots.
The Grendel makes a lot more sense as a hunter in a lightweight carbine, as it can be carried and brought to bear more easily.
For the target guns with longer barrels, I've seen 8208 make a lot of belted magnum cases with too early unlocking, while it didn't do it with the same load in a 20" gun. Dwell time on the long pipes is an issue that needs to be approached with adjustable gas, or another powder.
Hornady's 9th Edition has data for CFE now, with the highest velocities coming from it.
Yeah, there's no need to use the AMAX on more choice game than hogs and coyotes, now that we have the 123gr SST.
I think the lightest bullet I would want to use for hunting from my .260 Rem on medium game would be the 129gr SST, and I would prefer to run it at mild velocity to prevent fragmentation, especially on closer shots.
The Grendel makes a lot more sense as a hunter in a lightweight carbine, as it can be carried and brought to bear more easily.
For the target guns with longer barrels, I've seen 8208 make a lot of belted magnum cases with too early unlocking, while it didn't do it with the same load in a 20" gun. Dwell time on the long pipes is an issue that needs to be approached with adjustable gas, or another powder.
Hornady's 9th Edition has data for CFE now, with the highest velocities coming from it.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: robert neuser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 123 AMax was spec'd around the Grendel for a proper relationship of OAL, throat and magazine length, and may be it's optimal velocity range within Grendel's theoretical parameters, as well. Stick another 2-400fps on top of 2450-2500 from AR with a Creedmoor and bullets may not hold up well, especially in close. I get 2850 from a 6.5x47 without pushing at all with excellent accuracy to distance on steel, but that wouldn't be first choice for game. Hornady has never claimed the AMax is best hunting bullet, maybe that will fall to the new 123gr SST, but as said above, lots of game has fallen to well placed shots. </div></div>
Good point...I should have thought of that myself on the velocity difference. I shot a nice buck at about 150 yds. once just above and behind the heart through one lung...not a through and through...and once in the neck at about 175 yds...the neck shot dropped him...or so I thought...I went to get the 4 wheeler and came back to no deer and no blood trail...no through and through on both shots...found him about 400 yds away but not until late the next day...meat had spoiled...first time that has ever happened to me and I was/am really upset about it. Hence the reticence about the Amax.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: robert neuser</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 123 AMax was spec'd around the Grendel for a proper relationship of OAL, throat and magazine length, and may be it's optimal velocity range within Grendel's theoretical parameters, as well. Stick another 2-400fps on top of 2450-2500 from AR with a Creedmoor and bullets may not hold up well, especially in close. I get 2850 from a 6.5x47 without pushing at all with excellent accuracy to distance on steel, but that wouldn't be first choice for game. Hornady has never claimed the AMax is best hunting bullet, maybe that will fall to the new 123gr SST, but as said above, lots of game has fallen to well placed shots. </div></div>
Good point...I should have thought of that myself on the velocity difference. I shot a nice buck at about 150 yds. once just above and behind the heart through one lung...not a through and through...and once in the neck at about 175 yds...the neck shot dropped him...or so I thought...I went to get the 4 wheeler and came back to no deer and no blood trail...no through and through on both shots...found him about 400 yds away but not until late the next day...meat had spoiled...first time that has ever happened to me and I was/am really upset about it. Hence the reticence about the Amax.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
I would say that if you reload, go for it. I would.
I would say that if you reload, go for it. I would.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
There are 24 factory loads for the Grendel, last count. No need to reload. That includes the 123gr SST loaded by Precision Firearms in Lapua brass, in addition to all their other awesome loads, the AA loads, Hornady, and PPU (Wolf).
Cheapest plinking ammo is $12.95/box from AimSurplus.
There are 24 factory loads for the Grendel, last count. No need to reload. That includes the 123gr SST loaded by Precision Firearms in Lapua brass, in addition to all their other awesome loads, the AA loads, Hornady, and PPU (Wolf).
Cheapest plinking ammo is $12.95/box from AimSurplus.
Re: AR in 6.5 Grendel
I think the Grendel is the perfect platform for mid distance (300-800 meters) practical rifle shooting. It has only slightly more recoil than the 5.56, yet has dramatically better long range performance, and resistance to wind drift. It smacks plates with about 70% of the energy of a 7.62x51 (my completely subjective assessment), and seems to be the perfect compromise between the 5.56x45 and the 7.62x51...gives all the best of both. I think the best barrel length is 20 inches.
I think the Grendel is the perfect platform for mid distance (300-800 meters) practical rifle shooting. It has only slightly more recoil than the 5.56, yet has dramatically better long range performance, and resistance to wind drift. It smacks plates with about 70% of the energy of a 7.62x51 (my completely subjective assessment), and seems to be the perfect compromise between the 5.56x45 and the 7.62x51...gives all the best of both. I think the best barrel length is 20 inches.
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