AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what)

[AidanBS]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Anyway, I put together an AR recently, and I flat out cannot get the rifle to shoot accurately. Barrel is a Lothar Walther 20" 1/8 heavy barrel that I bought brand new straight from LW, and is mounted in a standard flat top upper with free float forend. Lower is a standard AR with 2 stage trigger, and the barrel has a Phantom FH.

Now, no matter what I try in the rifle, I cannot get anything to group less than 1.25-1.5" consistently. I've tried quite a few factory loads that have been very accurate in my other .223 rifles, including MK262 77gr Black Hills, Black Hills 68 and 75gr loads, Fiocchi Exacta 69 & 77gr SMKs, Winchester 45gr HPs, and 55gr bulk ammo. All of this ammo has been sub MOA in my other .223 rifles, so I know its not an ammo issue. I've also worked up quite a few loads with Varget, TAC, IMR4896, and H4895 behind 69gr, 75gr, and 77gr match bullets, with the same results. Occasionally I will get a group close to an inch, but nothing consistent. These same loads shoot less that .75" out of my other rifles, but will not shoot well in the AR.

I'm not ready to point the finger at the barrel, but I am running out of ideas. I am running a LaRue SPR mount, and have tried three different scopes (with the same results).

Anything I am missing here?

 

[pinzmann]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what)

Are your other rifles AR's also?

 

[McCrazy]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what)

A guy on here had a very similar problem about 2 months ago with an AR. Turned out the barrel nut hadn't been torqued properly by the manufacturer and had loosened up. It is worth checking.

 

[Dcarden]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCrazy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A guy on here had a very similar problem about 2 months ago with an AR. Turned out the barrel nut hadn't been torqued properly by the manufacturer and had loosened up. It is worth checking. </div></div>

My thoughts also....!!!!!..I dremeled one of the ratchets/teeth off the nut to get the proper torque (to clear the gas tube) on my new WOA 1/7 install...I'll bet thats the problem...!!

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dcarden</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCrazy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A guy on here had a very similar problem about 2 months ago with an AR. Turned out the barrel nut hadn't been torqued properly by the manufacturer and had loosened up. It is worth checking. </div></div>

My thoughts also....!!!!!..I dremeled one of the ratchets/teeth off the nut to get the proper torque (to clear the gas tube) on my new WOA 1/7 install...I'll bet thats the problem...!! </div></div>

UM you know that the torque spec is a range from 30 to 80 ft lbs.

You can tighten and loosen till you can get a hole to line up .... often times it takes 3 to 5 times to get a notch to line up and be somewhere between the 30 and 80 ft lbs mark.

 

[orkan]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

Generally you'll want to be on the higher end of that 30-80ft/lb spectrum.

Outsydlooknin is exactly right. Just tighten, loosen, tighten until you get the right one lined up. A little never-seize will help the operation.

If you are sure the barrel nut is tight, and aligned... then I'd try a different mount.

I have a larue mount that does the same thing. It will lose zero as much as 2-3" at times. I just put it on a 22AR conversion that isn't that accurate to begin with. If it is the mount, I'm sure larue will help you figure it out.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

Check the muzzle and try it with out the flash hider.

 

[308sako]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what)

deleted in protest!

 

[AidanBS]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what)

I know it isn't the mount, as I have also tried it with a YHM riser and Leupold QRW rings.

I pulled the barrel off the upper tonight, and the barrel nut was still tight (at least 30-40ft lbs). Of course, I didn't need a Dremel to get the nut off, but I do feel it was tight enough...

I checked the face of the extension threads on the receiver, and it appears to be square. I guess I could turn a piece down to mimic a barrel extension (without the locator stud), which would help check to see if it is square. However, that is time consuming and requires me picking up a piece of aluminum the proper diameter to begin with. The barrel extension fits tightly into the receiver, with minimum play. Now, I've had a few builds with barrel/upper fits that were extremely tight, but I honestly don't know if this is the issue. I really don't know how much play would be considered too much.

It really is discouraging, as I have never had this much trouble getting an AR to shoot sub 1.5" groups. Most would do MOA with little trouble, and that's with run of the mill barrels. While this barrel isn't as expensive as a Krieger, it still runs around $350 or so with the bolt.

 

[Dcarden]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dcarden</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCrazy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A guy on here had a very similar problem about 2 months ago with an AR. Turned out the barrel nut hadn't been torqued properly by the manufacturer and had loosened up. It is worth checking. </div></div>

My thoughts also....!!!!!..I dremeled one of the ratchets/teeth off the nut to get the proper torque (to clear the gas tube) on my new WOA 1/7 install...I'll bet thats the problem...!! </div></div>

UM you know that the torque spec is a range from 30 to 80 ft lbs.

You can tighten and loosen till you can get a hole to line up .... often times it takes 3 to 5 times to get a notch to line up and be somewhere between the 30 and 80 ft lbs mark. </div></div>
And if it doesn't.....cut off a barrel nut tooth.....Simple fix.!!!!! The teeth are for the wrench ONLY. Work it 3-5 times til the cows come home. If it doesn't index...cut a tooth off..!!

 

[Short Round]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

Someone else already said to try it w/o the flash suppressor or brake. I'll repeat it.

The muzzle device could be skewing things. Also if it's over torqued you can mess things up too.

 

[nicholst55]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Short Round</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone else already said to try it w/o the flash suppressor or brake. I'll repeat it.

The muzzle device could be skewing things. Also if it's over torqued you can mess things up too. </div></div>

And if that doesn't help, take a hard look at the crown. I'll bet it's either not concentric, or it's damaged.

 

[johngfoster]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

Have you considered the trigger as a potential problem?

 

[Victor N TN]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

Have you considered how professional gunsmiths make a living? Not meaning to be harsh or anything. But there are people that make a living by putting together rifles like you want. And sometimes the parts have to be altered or fitted. Average mil-spec parts don't usually make a match grade rifle. Not always, but usually, if you want a rifle to shoot like a $3000 rifle, you usually have to spend at least $2999 to get it built that way. That usually means paying someone that knows what they are doing to do the work.

Good luck.

 

[WRM]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dcarden</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dcarden</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCrazy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A guy on here had a very similar problem about 2 months ago with an AR. Turned out the barrel nut hadn't been torqued properly by the manufacturer and had loosened up. It is worth checking. </div></div>

My thoughts also....!!!!!..I dremeled one of the ratchets/teeth off the nut to get the proper torque (to clear the gas tube) on my new WOA 1/7 install...I'll bet thats the problem...!! </div></div>

UM you know that the torque spec is a range from 30 to 80 ft lbs.

You can tighten and loosen till you can get a hole to line up .... often times it takes 3 to 5 times to get a notch to line up and be somewhere between the 30 and 80 ft lbs mark. </div></div>
And if it doesn't.....cut off a barrel nut tooth.....Simple fix.!!!!! The teeth are for the wrench ONLY. Work it 3-5 times til the cows come home. If it doesn't index...cut a tooth off..!! </div></div>

Interesting. I thought the teeth were there so the gas tube could lock the nut in place (keep it from backing off)....

Cheers,

Bill

 

[AidanBS]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting. I thought the teeth were there so the gas tube could lock the nut in place (keep it from backing off)....</div></div>

That was my thought as well, although they may be a little sarcasm above...

I'm going to pull the Phantom this evening and and try it without the FH, at least once I get everything reassembled. I remember inspecting the crown when I built the upper, and it looked fine. Pulling the barrel is really the easiest part, the biggest PITA is realigning the gas block and indexing the railed free float forend. Well, I guess its more time consuming than anything...

 

[Downzero]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you considered how professional gunsmiths make a living? Not meaning to be harsh or anything. But there are people that make a living by putting together rifles like you want. And sometimes the parts have to be altered or fitted. Average mil-spec parts don't usually make a match grade rifle. Not always, but usually, if you want a rifle to shoot like a $3000 rifle, you usually have to spend at least $2999 to get it built that way. That usually means paying someone that knows what they are doing to do the work.

Good luck. </div></div>

I'm sorry, but this is bullshit. If your AR-15 is brand new and won't shoot 1 MOA, something is wrong with it. The AR is one of the most accurate semi automatic rifle designs ever produced.

I would send the rifle back to the guy who built it and expect him to fix it. AR-15s of all types are winners at Camp Perry every year for a reason. If yours won't shoot, something is wrong with it.

I suspect something is wrong with the barrel. Crown issues have been mentioned as one cause. I'd add potential rifling/bore issues to that. Send it back and have them bore scope it and diagnose it.

 

[Country]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

Seen plenty of new standard military AR's that will not shoot better than 1 MOA. He has basicly a standard AR with a new barrel. Not an accurised match quality AR.
As far as I can see . Victor N TN is correct in my opinion.

 

[AidanBS]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seen plenty of new standard military AR's that will not shoot better than 1 MOA. He has basicly a standard AR with a new barrel. Not an accurised match quality AR</div></div>

I'm really not sure what you mean by "accurized" match quality ARs, or at least what qualifies as an "accurized" rifle. The key to the set up is the barrel, assuming the upper is true. By that, assuming that the thread facing on the upper is square, then there shouldn't be any issues. Of course, there shouldn't be any issues that aren't glaringly obvious once the rifle is fully assembled.

I've built quite a few ARs, and this is the first one I've experienced any accuracy issues with. Now, I wouldn't have such a difficult time accepting this if I was using a standard barrel, but this is a match grade barrel.

Anyway, I guess I'll try it without the FH and see how it goes...

 

[2ndPanzer]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCrazy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A guy on here had a very similar problem about 2 months ago with an AR. Turned out the barrel nut hadn't been torqued properly by the manufacturer and had loosened up. It is worth checking. </div></div>

HAD THE SAME PROBLEM!! with the SAME BARREL!! I could loosen it by hand, when I removed the barrel. i put some red locktight in it, retightened and seated the rciever alignment pin into the threads a little and after remounting it is a 1/2 moa rifle now.

 

[banshee sws]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what)

to follow up on what Victor in TN said

send it to www.compasslake.com

tell them it won't shoot accurately and to please fix it

and you will get back a properly smithed and super accurate AR with the parts you sent in

or

they will replace the parts that need to be, to get it to shoot
accurately

and by accurate i mean one moa at distance ie., 6" at 600 yds

and they are NOT high at all

buddy of mine did this, and they charged him $75 , received and repaired the same day , back out to him the next

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">to follow up on what Victor in TN said

send it to www.compasslake.com

tell them it won't shoot accurately and to please fix it

and you will get back a properly smithed and super accurate AR with the parts you sent in

or

they will replace the parts that need to be, to get it to shoot
accurately

and by accurate i mean one moa at distance ie., 6" at 600 yds

and they are NOT high at all

buddy of mine did this, and they charged him $75 , received and repaired the same day , back out to him the next

</div></div>

+2 or maybe +3

Its the best way, to get the rifle to shoot like it should.

Unless you want to have a rifle you do not trust, and not use much.

John

 

[AidanBS]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what)

I went ahead and pulled the flash hider and checked the crown, which was fine. I haven't reassembled the upper yet, as I haven't decided if I will use the same upper or possibly pick up a replacement. Either way, I will be investing in a tool to square the receiver face. I noticed a hand lapping tool on the internet, which will be easier to simply buy versus turning one on my lathe. Plus, having the tool will allow me to weed out uppers if I decide to pick up another flat top to build on. I can simply take the tool and barrel with me, and hand sort through uppers until I find one with a good fit.

On another note, I did find a potential issue that may be leading to some of the accuracy issues. I ordered several hundred 77gr SMKs a few months ago, which were all bulk packed in a bag. Well, going through them I noticed a few that were longer than the others, so I sorted through the entire count. I found around 35 80gr SMKs, and at least 4-5 69gr SMKs. Not sure what the mix up was, but its possible a few got mixed in with my loads and skewed the results. Of course, this wouldn't explain why its not shooting some factory loads MOA, but it is a start.

 

[Downzero]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Country</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seen plenty of new standard military AR's that will not shoot better than 1 MOA. He has basicly a standard AR with a new barrel. Not an accurised match quality AR.
As far as I can see . Victor N TN is correct in my opinion. </div></div>

Maybe military rifles with 50,000 rounds + through them don't shoot well.

There's a reason why every RRA AR that comes off the line has a 1 MOA guarantee. It's not difficult.

 

[Country]

Re: AR that won't shoot accurately (no matter what

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aidan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seen plenty of new standard military AR's that will not shoot better than 1 MOA. He has basicly a standard AR with a new barrel. Not an accurised match quality AR</div></div>

I'm really not sure what you mean by "accurized" match quality ARs, or at least what qualifies as an "accurized" rifle. The key to the set up is the barrel, assuming the upper is true. By that, assuming that the thread facing on the upper is square, then there shouldn't be any issues. Of course, there shouldn't be any issues that aren't glaringly obvious once the rifle is fully assembled.

I've built quite a few ARs, and this is the first one I've experienced any accuracy issues with. Now, I wouldn't have such a difficult time accepting this if I was using a standard barrel, but this is a match grade barrel.

Anyway, I guess I'll try it without the FH and see how it goes... </div></div>
I think you pretty much answered your own question.