I am thinking of building an AR10. What make one AR10 more accurate than another? The barrel and the trigger are obvious but what other components help? Also, why is the piston system not as accurate as the DI?
AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most
- Thread starter turbohardtop
- Start date
Re: AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most
The barrel is the heart and soul of any rifle, and particularly important in any of the AR family. Beyond that, a good trigger, both of which you've already mentioned.
From there, a good float tube, to make sure you get the best out of that barrel. Run a good barrel and float it properly, and you're on the way.
As for ther DI vs the piston, you're back to the floating issue again. With a piston system, you've attached a fairly large, heavy, and worst of all, moving piece of metal to a barrel that you're trying to float, specifically to isolate it from all that crap. If you're after accuracy, got straight to the DI system and forget the pistons.
The barrel is the heart and soul of any rifle, and particularly important in any of the AR family. Beyond that, a good trigger, both of which you've already mentioned.
From there, a good float tube, to make sure you get the best out of that barrel. Run a good barrel and float it properly, and you're on the way.
As for ther DI vs the piston, you're back to the floating issue again. With a piston system, you've attached a fairly large, heavy, and worst of all, moving piece of metal to a barrel that you're trying to float, specifically to isolate it from all that crap. If you're after accuracy, got straight to the DI system and forget the pistons.
Re: AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most
Are you refering to the Armalite AR-10 or DPMS/SR-25 platform, for there are a few differences such as barrel nut, buffer, and mag types for example.
Kevin pretty much nailed it. Barrel, matching ammo with twist rate, trigger, free float. On piston vs. DI I would stick with DI and if you ever want to put a can on the rifle you can use an adjustable gas block if need be.
Are you refering to the Armalite AR-10 or DPMS/SR-25 platform, for there are a few differences such as barrel nut, buffer, and mag types for example.
Kevin pretty much nailed it. Barrel, matching ammo with twist rate, trigger, free float. On piston vs. DI I would stick with DI and if you ever want to put a can on the rifle you can use an adjustable gas block if need be.
Re: AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most
I agree with Kevin's comments except for his comments re: the whole piston vs. DI bull$#!t again (your not BSing, Kevin...just the whole topic in general). Simply put, and by way of example, my POF P-308 20" rifle is as accurate (easily sub-MOA capable) as any of my DI .308 gas guns. If built properly, there is no appreciable loss or gain of accuracy when comparing a piston and a DI gun side-by-side in my experience across multiple platforms. Again, POF spared no expense in the development of their system, including paying careful attention to the high quality of components used (such as the barrel, trigger, free-float setup, etc.) and how they integrate together to form a very solid, accurate, utterly dependable rifle. Not all piston operated rifles/carbines are created equally (same with DI guns), but the whole "DI is more accurate" stuff is just crap (again...in my experience).
Now, with that said...if you are building from the ground up, I'd go with DI simply based on a relative lack of aftermarket support for piston components for the .308/7.62 market at this time. Companies like Adams Arms and others are working on conversions for the large-frame ARs, but at this time...they don't exist. That leaves you with having to source and put together components from POF (or others) which at that point in time, you'd be better off just buying a complete rifle, setting it up with your choice of stock/grip/optics/etc. and leaving well enough alone. On the other hand, DI large-frame gas guns have a HUGE market in terms of available platforms, components, etc. that basically leave you anything your imagination can devise in terms of how you want to spec it out and build it up.
I agree with Kevin's comments except for his comments re: the whole piston vs. DI bull$#!t again (your not BSing, Kevin...just the whole topic in general). Simply put, and by way of example, my POF P-308 20" rifle is as accurate (easily sub-MOA capable) as any of my DI .308 gas guns. If built properly, there is no appreciable loss or gain of accuracy when comparing a piston and a DI gun side-by-side in my experience across multiple platforms. Again, POF spared no expense in the development of their system, including paying careful attention to the high quality of components used (such as the barrel, trigger, free-float setup, etc.) and how they integrate together to form a very solid, accurate, utterly dependable rifle. Not all piston operated rifles/carbines are created equally (same with DI guns), but the whole "DI is more accurate" stuff is just crap (again...in my experience).
Now, with that said...if you are building from the ground up, I'd go with DI simply based on a relative lack of aftermarket support for piston components for the .308/7.62 market at this time. Companies like Adams Arms and others are working on conversions for the large-frame ARs, but at this time...they don't exist. That leaves you with having to source and put together components from POF (or others) which at that point in time, you'd be better off just buying a complete rifle, setting it up with your choice of stock/grip/optics/etc. and leaving well enough alone. On the other hand, DI large-frame gas guns have a HUGE market in terms of available platforms, components, etc. that basically leave you anything your imagination can devise in terms of how you want to spec it out and build it up.
Re: AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most
Does the bolt matter? I remember that Noveske or other barrel manufactures would select/match a bolt to a barrel.
Does the bolt matter? I remember that Noveske or other barrel manufactures would select/match a bolt to a barrel.
Re: AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbohardtop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the bolt matter? I remember that Noveske or other barrel manufactures would select/match a bolt to a barrel. </div></div>
In a word...YES!
If you are having a barrel made from a blank, you should provide your bolt to the smith performing the work to properly setup the headspacing, etc. If buying off the shelf (so to speak), then you can purchase barrels with matching bolts or if you purchase your bolt or complete BCG from some retailers (like Rainier Arms for one) along with your barrel, they'll check the headspacing for you to ensure that it is GTG.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbohardtop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the bolt matter? I remember that Noveske or other barrel manufactures would select/match a bolt to a barrel. </div></div>
In a word...YES!
If you are having a barrel made from a blank, you should provide your bolt to the smith performing the work to properly setup the headspacing, etc. If buying off the shelf (so to speak), then you can purchase barrels with matching bolts or if you purchase your bolt or complete BCG from some retailers (like Rainier Arms for one) along with your barrel, they'll check the headspacing for you to ensure that it is GTG.
Re: AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most
I would say barrel quality. The good barrels are precision machined and stress relieved, and the bad barrels were manufactured for maximum speed and one might be good and another filled with stress inducing mundane or horrible accuracy and wandering point of impact as the barrel heats.
After that the fit of the bolt to the barrel probably plays a significant role.
The trigger quality will help increase shoot-ability of the system. lighter triggers with less over travel will help. Ar10's need to be locked in tight for accurate shooting and a lot of that probably has to do with slower locktime, and lower quality triggers.
I would say barrel quality. The good barrels are precision machined and stress relieved, and the bad barrels were manufactured for maximum speed and one might be good and another filled with stress inducing mundane or horrible accuracy and wandering point of impact as the barrel heats.
After that the fit of the bolt to the barrel probably plays a significant role.
The trigger quality will help increase shoot-ability of the system. lighter triggers with less over travel will help. Ar10's need to be locked in tight for accurate shooting and a lot of that probably has to do with slower locktime, and lower quality triggers.
Re: AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Kevin's comments except for his comments re: the whole piston vs. DI bull$#!t again (your not BSing, Kevin...just the whole topic in general). Simply put, and by way of example, my POF P-308 20" rifle is as accurate (easily sub-MOA capable) as any of my DI .308 gas guns. If built properly, there is no appreciable loss or gain of accuracy when comparing a piston and a DI gun side-by-side in my experience across multiple platforms. Again, POF spared no expense in the development of their system, including paying careful attention to the high quality of components used (such as the barrel, trigger, free-float setup, etc.) and how they integrate together to form a very solid, accurate, utterly dependable rifle. Not all piston operated rifles/carbines are created equally (same with DI guns), but the whole "DI is more accurate" stuff is just crap (again...in my experience).
Now, with that said...if you are building from the ground up, I'd go with DI simply based on a relative lack of aftermarket support for piston components for the .308/7.62 market at this time. Companies like Adams Arms and others are working on conversions for the large-frame ARs, but at this time...they don't exist. That leaves you with having to source and put together components from POF (or others) which at that point in time, you'd be better off just buying a complete rifle, setting it up with your choice of stock/grip/optics/etc. and leaving well enough alone. On the other hand, DI large-frame gas guns have a HUGE market in terms of available platforms, components, etc. that basically leave you anything your imagination can devise in terms of how you want to spec it out and build it up.</div></div>
Ord, Kevins talking about inherent accuracy from a platform, not a specific example. It is obvious that not having moving shit on your barrel while shooting has more inherent accuracy potential than a piston system that does have all that stuff. I've seen some pistons that rock also, but that doesnt mean that its effect is negligent, it just means that whomever made that piston AR made a really nice rifle. Same concept as bolt vs auto. Or shutting off the gas block completely. Or conceptually even the reason we free float barrels. Harmonic reactions and consistency. Not that it cant be accurate, just harder to make it so.
I wonder what would happen to groups from piston AR's if you shut off the gas block or went DI on the same build. Exact same rifle and ammo, and just changed the gas system. That would be a neat experiment. I never see people doing that for testing. its always apples and oranges comparisons.
In my limited experience of the two, have found that any decent DI AR I shot was better than my old match m1a. I've always attributed that to all the shit going on every time it goes bang. And the fact its attached to the barrel. Its not that the accuracy is bad, but it aint consistently sub moa either lol. But that could be because i suck. Laters.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with Kevin's comments except for his comments re: the whole piston vs. DI bull$#!t again (your not BSing, Kevin...just the whole topic in general). Simply put, and by way of example, my POF P-308 20" rifle is as accurate (easily sub-MOA capable) as any of my DI .308 gas guns. If built properly, there is no appreciable loss or gain of accuracy when comparing a piston and a DI gun side-by-side in my experience across multiple platforms. Again, POF spared no expense in the development of their system, including paying careful attention to the high quality of components used (such as the barrel, trigger, free-float setup, etc.) and how they integrate together to form a very solid, accurate, utterly dependable rifle. Not all piston operated rifles/carbines are created equally (same with DI guns), but the whole "DI is more accurate" stuff is just crap (again...in my experience).
Now, with that said...if you are building from the ground up, I'd go with DI simply based on a relative lack of aftermarket support for piston components for the .308/7.62 market at this time. Companies like Adams Arms and others are working on conversions for the large-frame ARs, but at this time...they don't exist. That leaves you with having to source and put together components from POF (or others) which at that point in time, you'd be better off just buying a complete rifle, setting it up with your choice of stock/grip/optics/etc. and leaving well enough alone. On the other hand, DI large-frame gas guns have a HUGE market in terms of available platforms, components, etc. that basically leave you anything your imagination can devise in terms of how you want to spec it out and build it up.</div></div>
Ord, Kevins talking about inherent accuracy from a platform, not a specific example. It is obvious that not having moving shit on your barrel while shooting has more inherent accuracy potential than a piston system that does have all that stuff. I've seen some pistons that rock also, but that doesnt mean that its effect is negligent, it just means that whomever made that piston AR made a really nice rifle. Same concept as bolt vs auto. Or shutting off the gas block completely. Or conceptually even the reason we free float barrels. Harmonic reactions and consistency. Not that it cant be accurate, just harder to make it so.
I wonder what would happen to groups from piston AR's if you shut off the gas block or went DI on the same build. Exact same rifle and ammo, and just changed the gas system. That would be a neat experiment. I never see people doing that for testing. its always apples and oranges comparisons.
In my limited experience of the two, have found that any decent DI AR I shot was better than my old match m1a. I've always attributed that to all the shit going on every time it goes bang. And the fact its attached to the barrel. Its not that the accuracy is bad, but it aint consistently sub moa either lol. But that could be because i suck. Laters.
Re: AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most
A rifles accuracy is the sum if all its parts, including the driver. The theory behind the piston system being less accurate than DI is due to barrel harmonics, the gas system (gas block/tube) has very little mass and has little effect on barrel harmonics, a piston system is generaly made of steel with a steel op rod and it has a good deal of mass and weight which will alter harmonics.
Kirk R
A rifles accuracy is the sum if all its parts, including the driver. The theory behind the piston system being less accurate than DI is due to barrel harmonics, the gas system (gas block/tube) has very little mass and has little effect on barrel harmonics, a piston system is generaly made of steel with a steel op rod and it has a good deal of mass and weight which will alter harmonics.
Kirk R
Re: AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most
AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most?
That big Nut found behind the butt plate..The Driver.
AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most?
That big Nut found behind the butt plate..The Driver.
Re: AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most
I agree with what has been posted:
barrel (free floated);
trigger;
Ammo (match grade)
And a good shooter.
I would add one thing that helped my groups: a good Cheek weld. Many use the Magpul PRS adjustable stock (I do now). It can be very helpful.
I used an A2 stock with an Eagle Stock pack on my varminter AR for years.
Good luck,
BMT
I agree with what has been posted:
barrel (free floated);
trigger;
Ammo (match grade)
And a good shooter.
I would add one thing that helped my groups: a good Cheek weld. Many use the Magpul PRS adjustable stock (I do now). It can be very helpful.
I used an A2 stock with an Eagle Stock pack on my varminter AR for years.
Good luck,
BMT
Re: AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon Lester</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most?
That big Nut found behind the butt plate..The Driver.</div></div>
This. The answer to 99% of accuracy problems.
That said:
1 - Barrel
2 - Trigger
3 - Anything that makes the individual shooter more comfortable including:
Muzzle brake
Pistol grip
Adjustable stock
Silent captured recoil spring (JP Enterprises)
Low mass bolt
Heavy buffer
Piston vs DI gas system
Etc
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon Lester</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AR10 accuracy..which component contribute the most?
That big Nut found behind the butt plate..The Driver.</div></div>
This. The answer to 99% of accuracy problems.
That said:
1 - Barrel
2 - Trigger
3 - Anything that makes the individual shooter more comfortable including:
Muzzle brake
Pistol grip
Adjustable stock
Silent captured recoil spring (JP Enterprises)
Low mass bolt
Heavy buffer
Piston vs DI gas system
Etc
