- Thread starter RTV
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The standard KAC trigger is roughly equivalent to an SSA. I use the SD-E, which KAC doesn’t have an equivalent for.
And the KAC backup sights are great, but who needs flip sights? Not I.
I want something better than the BCM barrel is the main reason.
What receiver are you going to use?
Training.
You need to train to be proficient with any weapon and I do not believe the LPVO will hold me back with practice.
you obviously do not operate operationally.But for real, have fun being stuck in 2005 with your nose to the charging handle. I’ll stick with my chin weld
Same thing I have done with my uncles AR15 while shooting it at the range. Since this would be my only gun for a little bit it's not just a duty rifle but also something that I can take to the range and have fun with.
What we used to do is shoot clay pigeons at 400 yards.
Clay pigeons are about 4.33" in diameter and MOA at 400 is 4.188".
We didnt always get first round hits of course however I do want the rifle to be able to do that a good amount of the time if I do my part.
It is my understanding that BCM BHF barrels are more so 1.5-2.0 MOA shooters. Has your experience differed from that?
One’s perceived current abilities shouldn’t be justification for buying subpar equipment.
Translation: shut the fuck up boomer
Yeah the new one is cool. The old one is...old.
You guys are way harder on this dude than you were on me with my first post!
Alright, so, a little input from a fellow Hide newb.
Your trigger...for a 2 stage I'd go with a LaRue over a Geissele every single time if what I was after is a "really good 2-stage trigger" you'll save $160 over your Tricon.
If you want a really exceptional trigger, grab a Triggertech Competition Primary trigger. You can find them ~$175 (ArmOrAlly usually carries them for about that) and still save $ over your Geissele.
Gas Tube: You don't need the SLR name. SLR makes really good stuff but their gas tubes are overpriced by about $8. I've standardized on Bootleg nitrided gas tubes and never pay more than $16 for them.
Gas Block: I'm going to tell you to spend a little $ here. I'll never again buy a steel gas block. You can save at-least an ounce by going with titanium and every ounce you save on weight forward of the upper receiver makes a difference in how the rifle handles. V7 makes a pin-on version if a pinned gas block is what you're after. Titanium cools quicker than steel too. Make sure it's DLC/Ionbond coated so it resists corrosion better. You'll be told you don't need this, and you probably don't, but I've built 5 rifles now and this is where my experience has taken me.
Charging handle: If you look around, you can get your Radian for about $80. I just got the SDSL version from Big Daddy Unlimited for $76. I never plan on running a suppressor and bought it "just because". The advice of others to get the PRI ambi CH is good. You should do that.
Barrel/A5 system: Criterion ports their barrels very conservatively. No need for an A5 system (just like there's no need for an adjustable gas block). An H2 Buffer and a Tubbs Flatwire spring is all you need. Your barrel choice is a good one. If you poke around on this very site you'll find the code "Ruggles15" to save you 15% off when ordered through Criterion.
Upper/Handguard: BCM Handguards are fine. I really like Midwest Industries lightweight combat rails. Rigid enough with a solid lockup system. ~$175 if you shop around. Go through my "thermal fit uppers" thread here to look at options for your upper receiver. Zev would work with any rail you're considering. The Spikes Tactical billet looks like it's cut to do so as well.
BCG: Get the Cryptic Coatings or F1 Defense Durabolt. It's the same BCG, just branded differently. It's more than a cosmetic choice. These things feel like polished glass. DLC/PVD/Ionbond cleans easier than anything on the market (Chrome would be my 2nd choice) and it will run wet, dry, clean, or dirty. Don't let the curmudgeons talk you out of it.
Alright, so, a little input from a fellow Hide newb.
Your trigger...for a 2 stage I'd go with a LaRue over a Geissele every single time if what I was after is a "really good 2-stage trigger" you'll save $160 over your Tricon.
If you want a really exceptional trigger, grab a Triggertech Competition Primary trigger. You can find them ~$175 (ArmOrAlly usually carries them for about that) and still save $ over your Geissele.
Gas Tube: You don't need the SLR name. SLR makes really good stuff but their gas tubes are overpriced by about $8. I've standardized on Bootleg nitrided gas tubes and never pay more than $16 for them.
Gas Block: I'm going to tell you to spend a little $ here. I'll never again buy a steel gas block. You can save at-least an ounce by going with titanium and every ounce you save on weight forward of the upper receiver makes a difference in how the rifle handles. V7 makes a pin-on version if a pinned gas block is what you're after. Titanium cools quicker than steel too. Make sure it's DLC/Ionbond coated so it resists corrosion better. You'll be told you don't need this, and you probably don't, but I've built 5 rifles now and this is where my experience has taken me.
Charging handle: If you look around, you can get your Radian for about $80. I just got the SDSL version from Big Daddy Unlimited for $76. I never plan on running a suppressor and bought it "just because". The advice of others to get the PRI ambi CH is good. You should do that.
Barrel/A5 system: Criterion ports their barrels very conservatively. No need for an A5 system (just like there's no need for an adjustable gas block). An H2 Buffer and a Tubbs Flatwire spring is all you need. Your barrel choice is a good one. If you poke around on this very site you'll find the code "Ruggles15" to save you 15% off when ordered through Criterion.
Upper/Handguard: BCM Handguards are fine. I really like Midwest Industries lightweight combat rails. Rigid enough with a solid lockup system. ~$175 if you shop around. Go through my "thermal fit uppers" thread here to look at options for your upper receiver. Zev would work with any rail you're considering. The Spikes Tactical billet looks like it's cut to do so as well.
BCG: Get the Cryptic Coatings or F1 Defense Durabolt. It's the same BCG, just branded differently. It's more than a cosmetic choice. These things feel like polished glass. DLC/PVD/Ionbond cleans easier than anything on the market (Chrome would be my 2nd choice) and it will run wet, dry, clean, or dirty. Don't let the curmudgeons talk you out of it.
a LOT of good info here thank you.
i have already looked at that thermal fit upper thread. it was the main reason that i went with the Mk2 BCM upper. seemed there was mixed reports on the BLEM's which would make sense since the BCM disclaimer only says that you MAY have to heat the upper up first.
that and the new FA position would assist with the ambi charger.
onto triggers how reliable has the larue been? does it have a solid reputation.
EDIT:
Another thing I forgot to ask you about is how has the titanium GB affected accuracy? It would be my expectation that since the gas block is made of a different material than the barrel that you run the risk of the barrel being hotter and expanding more than the gas block causing issues with harmonica and introducing a stress point?.
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LaRue triggers are dead nuts reliable. They include an extra heavier spring as well. You won't need it.
V Seven makes quality stuff. Their claim is titanium having a lower expansion rate than steel means it will actually create a tighter gas seal thus improving reliability. I'm not a scientist but that makes an abundance of sense to me. Torque on your muzzle device will have a greater impact on your barrel harmonics than a tight fitting gas block. I switched over to titanium gas blocks strictly to improve the overall balance of my rifles. It's not much, but for me, it's enough. There's no durability downside, and there may (or may not) be a reliability upside. For me it's worth paying $75 for a gas block instead of $20-25. As always, YMMV.
My opinion, the barrel you're buying will be a ~1moa shooter. The gas block will not be the variable that makes it a >MOA shooter.
Speaking of accuracy, I'd take a look at this article.
Okay, I get it now. I apologize, what I said earlier was bad advice. Best advice you're gonna get follows.
Before I go any further, OP, are you interested in actually learning marksmanship fundamentals and how to shoot groups within the limits of the weapon at such and such distance, or are just interested in building something that closely resembles whatever you unlocked on COD?
I'm being serious here, because there are two completely different answers.
If shooting is your thing and you're interested in #1, then I'm really thinking you need to just get something like a Colt AR15A4. Collapsible stocks and other junk will just fuck you up right now. Plus it's a good rifle, it's not junk, you can bet your life on it and I promise it'll do you better than a collection of shit. It'll make a fine rack rifle too once you wear the fucker out, and it'll do everything you need it to do, ask any Marine or pre 9/11 grunt. This is the one, $1049, ain't it sweet? A Marine or grunt would've ate your breakfast to get his grubby little dickbeaters on something this nice:
A bunch of ammo, M855 will do fine but if you can get better for less do it, print off pages for a good NM dope book, a shooting sling, a leather glove and a heavy jacket (whatever you have will work, if you find NM is your thing you can get the hi speed shit later) join a range club that offers NM shooting on a KD range, pretty sure they have one in or around Spokane, and SHUT UP AND LISTEN to the old timers there. Maybe get a good book on fundamentals and practice that.
If you're wondering what trigger, you're not listening. It comes with one. If you don't like it, keep practicing. It'll get better, I promise.
If you wanna learn marksmanship and get good at shooting these things, then that's the best advice you're gonna get, whether you like it or not. It's a fact and anyone on here that knows their shit, including the site owner, would agree. Unless he said start with a bolt .22 and then I gotta say I couldn't disagree.
Then by the time you learn all this, when you do upgrade and take the advice on an SR15 or HK or cut rifle this or that, you'll be able to appreciate the difference. It'll be like going from a Chevy to a Ferrari. But you gotta learn the fundamentals, gotta learn to shoot the weapon to its limits. Otherwise they'll all just be Yugos to you and it won't really matter what you get.
If it's the other answer #2, and you just want some Gucci shit, then drive on, I can't really help. 99% of the stuff sold is just junk or cosmetic crap anyway. Because you've turned down far better advice simply because "it's not CHF" or "BCM such and such ain't good enough". Pretty sure you ain't good enough to tell the difference between a Krieger cut rifle vs. a CHF whatever the fuck.
You can be though. If you'll shut up, listen, and stop arfcomming it on the 'Hide. And FWIW, you can get bad advice here too.
Don't take this the wrong way. See, BTDT, I bought a goddamn 37mm flare launcher and put it on my perfectly fine preban Dothan AL police issue PWA AR I got for $600 with ten mags back in 1999 --that's a big fucking deal dude. That's like putting a brand new Honda engine --inside a mint disco era Masserati. It's dumb. And it sure as shit didn't make me a better shooter. But I did it. Don't be "that guy", learn from my mistakes if you can, that's what we're here for.
Good luck.
Before I go any further, OP, are you interested in actually learning marksmanship fundamentals and how to shoot groups within the limits of the weapon at such and such distance, or are just interested in building something that closely resembles whatever you unlocked on COD?
I'm being serious here, because there are two completely different answers.
If shooting is your thing and you're interested in #1, then I'm really thinking you need to just get something like a Colt AR15A4. Collapsible stocks and other junk will just fuck you up right now. Plus it's a good rifle, it's not junk, you can bet your life on it and I promise it'll do you better than a collection of shit. It'll make a fine rack rifle too once you wear the fucker out, and it'll do everything you need it to do, ask any Marine or pre 9/11 grunt. This is the one, $1049, ain't it sweet? A Marine or grunt would've ate your breakfast to get his grubby little dickbeaters on something this nice:
A bunch of ammo, M855 will do fine but if you can get better for less do it, print off pages for a good NM dope book, a shooting sling, a leather glove and a heavy jacket (whatever you have will work, if you find NM is your thing you can get the hi speed shit later) join a range club that offers NM shooting on a KD range, pretty sure they have one in or around Spokane, and SHUT UP AND LISTEN to the old timers there. Maybe get a good book on fundamentals and practice that.
If you're wondering what trigger, you're not listening. It comes with one. If you don't like it, keep practicing. It'll get better, I promise.
If you wanna learn marksmanship and get good at shooting these things, then that's the best advice you're gonna get, whether you like it or not. It's a fact and anyone on here that knows their shit, including the site owner, would agree. Unless he said start with a bolt .22 and then I gotta say I couldn't disagree.
Then by the time you learn all this, when you do upgrade and take the advice on an SR15 or HK or cut rifle this or that, you'll be able to appreciate the difference. It'll be like going from a Chevy to a Ferrari. But you gotta learn the fundamentals, gotta learn to shoot the weapon to its limits. Otherwise they'll all just be Yugos to you and it won't really matter what you get.
If it's the other answer #2, and you just want some Gucci shit, then drive on, I can't really help. 99% of the stuff sold is just junk or cosmetic crap anyway. Because you've turned down far better advice simply because "it's not CHF" or "BCM such and such ain't good enough". Pretty sure you ain't good enough to tell the difference between a Krieger cut rifle vs. a CHF whatever the fuck.
You can be though. If you'll shut up, listen, and stop arfcomming it on the 'Hide. And FWIW, you can get bad advice here too.
Don't take this the wrong way. See, BTDT, I bought a goddamn 37mm flare launcher and put it on my perfectly fine preban Dothan AL police issue PWA AR I got for $600 with ten mags back in 1999 --that's a big fucking deal dude. That's like putting a brand new Honda engine --inside a mint disco era Masserati. It's dumb. And it sure as shit didn't make me a better shooter. But I did it. Don't be "that guy", learn from my mistakes if you can, that's what we're here for.
Good luck.
I am interested in learning how to shoot everything from room clearing tactics to the hasty sling.
Thank you very much for your response I really do appreciate it and first and foremost your responses are pretty long and I dont want you to feel like you are doing that for nothing I most certainly am here to learn.
Just to clarify your recommendation is to get just a plain jain colt and not worry about any of the fancier gadgets and gizmos because
1. I'm not at a level to discern marketing and what really matters (fair point to that given how agonizing it was choosing a barrel... mainly barrel profiles lol)
2. A lot of the fancier stuff would just introduce needless variables for me to deal with while getting a solid foundation of fundamentals and provide a crutch for bad habits to hide in.
The only question I have is what rifle would you recommend since colt is no longer making ARs for the public? Also while this is a hobby of mine to learn to be the best shooter I can be and improve myself I also am seeking a good rifle for defensive purposes as well. Would you still recommend something like the Colt A4 for both range and home defense or would you recommend two entirely different setups because at this stage in my development the equipment I would need to get the rifle to do that takes away from learning the fundamentals too much and I would not necessarily understand all the trade offs I would be making with that equipment?
BTW your other posts have great info as well I LOVE the tavor and would ideally use one for home defense I just know it would not be a good option for me to work on my marksmanship/rifleman skills.
Fundamentals are critical. Full stop.
However lots of folks like to recommend the gear *they* used when learning fundamentals as they incorrectly confound the learning experience with the tools at hand while learning. Every generation has done this, just ask old timers and apparently a 30-06 is critical for learning recoil management.... (just not so).
My fist AR was a 20 inch flat top Armalite. Solid gun at the tome, but over the years I’ve replaced the bolt carrier, trigger, hand guard, muzzle device, buffer, etc, etc. It’s not the same gun. I would have saved money building. Or buying a pre-built with today’s offerings.
You have some good parts, and folks have made great suggestions. Id maybe start with the nitride bolt carrier and add a JP silent capture spring. Superlative has block would be my choice, along with a cheaper standard raptor charging handle. My 2 cents.
However lots of folks like to recommend the gear *they* used when learning fundamentals as they incorrectly confound the learning experience with the tools at hand while learning. Every generation has done this, just ask old timers and apparently a 30-06 is critical for learning recoil management.... (just not so).
My fist AR was a 20 inch flat top Armalite. Solid gun at the tome, but over the years I’ve replaced the bolt carrier, trigger, hand guard, muzzle device, buffer, etc, etc. It’s not the same gun. I would have saved money building. Or buying a pre-built with today’s offerings.
You have some good parts, and folks have made great suggestions. Id maybe start with the nitride bolt carrier and add a JP silent capture spring. Superlative has block would be my choice, along with a cheaper standard raptor charging handle. My 2 cents.
I agree that buying a complete rifle from BCM or Sons of Liberty Gun Works (more customization options) is a better option if this rifle will be used in a personal defense role.
And I'm not discouraging you from eventually building a rifle. I have built a few rifles, but they are "hobby" guns to me. For personal protection I stick with my professionally built guns. Let your "second" AR be your hobby gun.
I only had to watch a couple of YouTube videos from "Instructor Chad" of School of the American Rifle to realize that I need way more knowledge and a lot more tools on my workbench to consider anything I build to be duty capable.
Just my $.02.
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I used to feel this way. I'd either buy a factory gun or give my parts to a qualified gunsmith to put things together.
With a factory gun, even a high end one, I'd usually end up changing the charging handle, the sights, probably the muzzle device, the trigger, the stock, the safety, the grip...see where I'm going with this?
The most glaring thing to jump out at me when I let a "professional" build my gun was an unpinned gasblock with the barrel not even being dimpled. Oh, and the handguard (a Midwest industries btw) being installed and not fully snugged up to the receiver.
When I build my own, I don't have to worry about any of that.
I know I have the parts I want. I know everything that should be loctited/rocksett was, I know everything has been torqued down correctly etc.
Yeah, you have to buy some tools and do your research, but if you want something done right, you probably are best off doing it yourself.
This is precisely why I mentioned Sons of Liberty Gun Works. They let you select your preferred option for everything in your list so you don't end up paying for a bunch of parts that end up in your take-off bin. They even give you a check box to pin the gas block if you want that.
I think it's cool the way they are providing that level of customization and it would be great if companies like BCM took notice and did the same.
I would use a stainless steel barrel [416R) rather than a chrome lined barrel. They are more accurate than chrome lined barrels BUT will not last as long.
I agree. One of my most accurate rifles(<1/2 inch @100 yards) is an Anderson RF85 build with an Anderson bull 5.56 barrel. And its real easy to clean. The only real upgrade was a new coated trigger. I have been using a $30 CVlife scope from Amazon, but I may upgrade that also, although that scope has been fine.
I have Proof research barrels and a custom 6.5CM, but the Anderson is just as accurate with the right ammo. Ammo is key. I have been using Browning 50gr B192302231 BXV nickel plated Varmint.
OP, this is the perfect example of when to stop listening to someone’s advice. Black rifle haven, school of the American rifle, primary and secondary, and more groups will go into the why. Pm me if you want. But this is some arfcom level advice lol
Except you can't really trust the homebuilt gun. You don't know how it will hold up under hard use. With a quality factory gun you have a confidence level you will not get with a homebrew.
Plus half that shit people accessories with adds zero value to the system, and in fact, usually makes it less reliable.
Don't buy shitty guns with parts like MI and you won't have to worry about it. Stick to Quality factory manufactures, Colt, DD, KAC, BCM, LMT. Everything else is hobby grade at best.
I have been building AR's for over 20 years both professionally and as a hobby. All my hard use/training guns are KAC or BCM. The gun next to by bed is a KAC and the one behind my door is a BCM 11.5" pistol. I can build ANYTHING and generally better than all but a few guys in the country who have been doing it longer and for more important units/agencies. And yet I still run a factory gun. Kinda tells you something.
I've seen a few so called "factories" and most of them ain't doing anything special. You assemble an AR15, no building is required. You assemble with quality parts you'll have a good rifle. Use cheap shit and you get a range toy.
This is the problem. One guy on the internet says he hit the gold mine with a cheap parts gun that shoots bugholes at 2 miles.
Even if its true, its not repeatable. Just because I make a hole in one on the golf course, doesn't mean I should be on the PGA tour.
Being able to repeat the results, with the same parts , with the same reliability, the same durability is what matters.
Its like rolling a Die. Buy a PSA piece of shit and you have a 1/20 chance its going to be a hammer, run fantastic, stand up to hard use ,ect
Buy a BCM there is a 19/20 it will be a great duty gun.
Buy a KAC and there is a 999/1000 Chance you can trust your life to it.
Now go calculate the expected value for each of these guns based on what they sell for and then add in all the time and money spend dicking around when you should be training/shooting and not fucking around with a piece of shit.
Its not a hard choice at all.
Oh look MR Airforce is back to tell us about how to build an AR. I guess the $1K's in AR tools sitting in the gun room are just for show. You should go tell the boys at the PWS at Quantico , builders at GAP, Boys from the AMU that they are doing it all wrong. They must all get really lucky with slapping parts together.
Your post does nothing but show your ignorance on the subject.
You sound like someone who has a lot of experience building ARs and has had the fortune of being able to play with some really nice ones from some great manufacturers.
In your post you said that you wont know how a home built gun will perform under pressure but my question to you is ( and I'm not being a smartass I really am looking for an informative answer)
If you build the gun with quality, proven parts and considering that AR parts are for the most part in spec and compatible with eachother. What is the biggest risk? What is the failure point?
Feel free to get as technical as you want anything I do not understand I will research it until I do.
I'd like to know as well.
Apples to oranges comparison. Thanks for the insults about my military service of which you have no clue about.
Hey, Yugos are about all you can get these da-- Oh you didn't mean AK parts kits, did you?
Sure thing and thanks for asking. This will be a long post and I might have to come back and add to it.
The AR like any complicated machine, is a system. A system with components made by hundreds of manufactures to all different specs and quality.
When you buy a factory gun from a quality manufacture, you are getting a few things. First is parts sourcing. The good ones generally order from the better (IE more expensive) small parts manufactures. Even if its the same place supplying the whole industry (Use the buffer detent for example), not everything is made exactly the same. Material Lots chance, Tooling wears down changing machined surfaces, the guys running the machines and inspecting the parts,ect. Say they make 10000 parts that day. They may have a contract with say KAC for 1,000 a month. KAC is a very demanding manufacture who makes most of their components in house. When they don't , there are very strict specs. Those specs are QA's and QC when they come in. They may even do destructive or non destructive testing on the lots to ensure they were heat treated and tempered correctly. Now Say KAC find that a batch is bad. They will send it back, costing the vendor money. Now what happens to those parts? You think they just throw them away? Nope, they end up in your shitty budget Lower parts kits and bargain manufacture guns. See everyone is trying to make money. Now the parts manufacture gets to decide do they want to lose money by having their lots rejected, or ensure they are making them to spec (and charge a little more for that). KAC is only going to get burned a few times before they either switch suppliers or just say fuck it and make it in house (Like they do with most of their parts) When your selling AR's for $300, every cent counts toward margin. You think those cheaper companies are batch testing parts to ensure they are made correctly? So what happens is is 100 rnds or 500 or 5000 rounds, that part fails and your gun is redlined. Hopefully it doesn't happen when it really matters, like during a raid or home defense. Maybe you are lucky and it just ruins your shooting or hunting trip.
Go down to your local machine shop and get quotes for 2 parts, absolutely identical except one uses material certified alloy, accurate to .0001 and a surfacefinish to 1 micron. The other part can use any steel laying around the shop, only needs to be accurate to .005 and we don't care about the surface finish. You think both of those parts will cost the same?
Now take that example and multiply it times every component in an AR.
What the good guys do is they will build 5 or 10 guns and run them hard as shit. HK even has faculties in the artic, jungle and desert where they test everything in different environments, in numbers to flesh out issues. Companies like Colt, BCM, KAC, ect have been through so much destructive testing, finding better sources,ect that they have fleshed out the issues. They know that the components that go into that rifle or carbine, will work together. They will not wear unevenly, gall,ect.
Any part can fail at anytime, that just a fact. The difference is, a quality part, sourced from a quality manufacture, made to a certain spec, QA/Qc'ed and tested in the system is going to fail much much much much less often. AR bolts are a great example. Tolerance stacking, bad material selection and poor manufacturing will make most cheaper guns break a bolt somewhere in the 7-20K range. Some more and some less. A quality Bolt made of good material selection for its use, along with quality components built right, you should get north of 30K for a bolt and sometimes much more. Switch to something like a KAC E3 and you will never break a bolt (Not one reported bolt failure, ever). Yea you pay for it, but its piece of mind.
So here is the caveat. Assume you want to build a homebuild for hard use. Here is what you need to do to minimally trust it.
Source every component from a known quality manufacture.
Lot or batch test every component to ensure conformance to spec
Build 5-10 of these guns using the exact same everything from the same lot, built the same way.
Not go dump 20 or 30K rounds through each gun to see what is failing, where you are getting premature ware and build a statistical model.
Now go take all those broken and inferior parts, and source something different.
Now go back and shoot another 20-30K per gun and work through those issues.
Eventually you will have a recipe that you can have a high degree of confidence in.
Ever had a car break down? Now think of how much testing and engineering went into every piece and components in that car and how many millions or tens of millions of test miles were run before it was ready for the sale. Now think how many cars break down to faulty componets, ect.
Now imagine what kind of car you would have if you opened Jegs and ordered all the parts to build a Toyota Camry in your garage with parts from 100 different manufactures and vendors.
Do you think your budget builders give 2 shit about where they get parts from (and alot is sourced from china believe it or not) or anything other than the cheapest price possible to pad margin?
Think it will drive like a factory toyota? Maybe if your a master car builder but for 99.99999% of the world, its not a hard choice to make.
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In summary, buy quality parts from a known manufacturer and you'll end up with a quality rifle.
Do you have the tooling and knowledge to know what quality parts are? How do you inspect your parts before assembly? If something is wrong, how do you fix it? What happens when 2 "known" quality parts need to be altered to work together correctly? Have the tooling and experience to fix issues, even ones you don't identify until you are test firing it? Know how to diagnoses issues to get to the root cause?
Considering I have had to work on/alter parts from just about every manufacture including all the big boys , then I guess there is no such thing as quality parts from a manufacture.
What you do in your garage and what a respected manufacture do in their facility , assume you have the exact same parts from the same sources is apples to oranges. You don't even have the basic knowledge, experience and tools to measure and verify. They do, and there is an adherence to the recipe. If something is out of spec or doesn't pass muster, it gets rejected. You don't have that ability because you have no standard other than u can physically slap the parts together.
You can give the same ingredients to Gordon Ramsey and a homeless bum, doesn't mean they both will make the same quality meal.
Considering I have had to work on/alter parts from just about every manufacture including all the big boys , then I guess there is no such thing as quality parts from a manufacture.
What you do in your garage and what a respected manufacture do in their facility , assume you have the exact same parts from the same sources is apples to oranges. You don't even have the basic knowledge, experience and tools to measure and verify. They do, and there is an adherence to the recipe. If something is out of spec or doesn't pass muster, it gets rejected. You don't have that ability because you have no standard other than u can physically slap the parts together.
You can give the same ingredients to Gordon Ramsey and a homeless bum, doesn't mean they both will make the same quality meal.
A lot of really good information in your post and it all makes a lot of sense from what I know of manufacturing and metallurgy (admittedly is not much) you have officially converted me... crap now I have to decide between a DDM4 V7 16" or a KAC SR15.
I might throw the BCM in there I am just concerned based on some things I have read about their QC that I would get a 2 or 3 MOA gun.
What price can you find the SR15 for if you wait for a good deal? I k ow eurooptic has a nice price on the DD's right now.
Call Lawmans and see what kind of price they will give you on a SR15. If you are military or LE, they have a discount as well.
You should be able to get a new one around $2300. There is a few on gunbroker. Used market is hit or miss, most people never sell theirs. I have a Mod 1 an Mod 0 and will never sell either. Need to grab a Mod 2.
BCM I would get the ELW 16" upper and find a KAC complete lower and slap them together. $800 for lower and $800 for upper.
You should be able to get a new one around $2300. There is a few on gunbroker. Used market is hit or miss, most people never sell theirs. I have a Mod 1 an Mod 0 and will never sell either. Need to grab a Mod 2.
BCM I would get the ELW 16" upper and find a KAC complete lower and slap them together. $800 for lower and $800 for upper.
You won't find a better price than at Kelley's on a KAC unless you buy used. I've bought 3 rifles from him & he's always lowest. If he doesn't have it on hand, Knight's drop ships for him.
KAC at Kelley's Enterprises
MM
Some will hate, but I will say that rifle is an effin beaut. Good work.
But for real, have fun being stuck in 2005 with your nose to the charging handle. I’ll stick with my chin weldView attachment 7324493
My point was that every rifle is different, and expensive is not a cure all. You can build a quality reliable weapon using OEM parts. An example would be Kotaboy32 on Youtube with his expensive vs budget build. The outcome was the budget outperformed the expensive build. I understand I lucked out with the Anderson results, but if in the end the outcome is good amd the reliability is there, then why does price make it better?
Interesting opinion. Why does everyone think more expensive is better. Most of the factory gun vendors get their parts from the same OEM. Kotaboy32 on Youtube did a good comparison of an expensive build vs budget, and the difference was minimal. Results are results, and as long as reliability is the same, then why spend more, unless you have a job like Tonto Paronto.
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I'm not going to get into it past this, but I really thought we left the mindset that only factory built guns were reliable back in the early 2000s.
Mil Spec doesn't mean quality. It means good enough for Government work.
Mil Spec doesn't mean quality. It means good enough for Government work.
I love AR builds, but yours confuses me 1000yd HD rifle?? I’m out. Have a single purpose. Purpose built rifles more confused rifles suck!
To shoot 600+ yards, you want reasonably heavy barrel built by an accuracy guy. WOA and Compass Lake should be your go to suppliers there. You really need 18”-20” to shoot any distance. For HD at my house 16” is max.
you really want a clamp on gas block that you can get pretty tight for accuracy, but you definitely need a pinned gas block for HD.
Aero makes an M4E1 upper and lower set. That makes for a solid long range frame.
Get a nice round hand guard. ALG makes a good one, but I like the BCM for working rifles.
Trigger....what trigger. This is a very important part. Maybe Jard or Geissele Hi Speed for accuracy....Rise Armament or Larue for tactical or crossover. I would go 2lb Jard for precision, but wouldn’t trust the mechanism for tactical use.
Not in my experience, but I don’t use these all in wonder pretty parts.
Have you seen invoices from BCM and PSA that prove that they do not buy parts from the same manufacturer? Do you have any proof whatsoever that (for example) a FA profile BCG from BCM (currently $189) is superior in metallurgy, precision, finishing, heat treating, and/or assembly than a BCG from PSA (less than $100) with identical specs? Specs like the shot peened Carpenter 158 HPT/MPI bolt, heat treated chrome lined tool steel gas key with properly staked grade 8 SHCS fasteners, heat treated tool steel extractor, extractor spring with rubber o-ring, 8620 Chrome lined and parkerized carrier, heat treated and chrome plated firing pin.
For 2 decades I was a formally trained (years of trade school) machinist, tool & die maker, plastic injection moldmaker, CNC programming/setup guy, did much of my own heat treating, machine and plastic injection mold designer, maker of molds for investment castings and forms for sand casting, builder of machines, and shop foreman. I still maintain a home shop with (among other things) a Cincinnati CNC vertical machining center, CAD/CAM, TIG and MIG welders, and engine lathe. One could say I'm fairly well versed in most facets of manufacturing.
I've built roughly 50 AR-15s, most for friends and family, but I've kept at least dozen through the years. I use mostly PSA LPKs and upper receivers (again, forgings from Cerro Forge where many other manufacturer get their forgings) and I CNC mill FCG pockets in 80% lowers, use barrels from PSA including their Freedom line, standard line, and the CHF double chrome lined barrels made up the street from PSA by a little company called FN Herstal (maybe you've heard of them) as well as barrels from Noveske, Bargara, Faxon, BHW, and Kreiger (to name a few). All my personal ARs have Geissele SSA triggers and KNS anti-rotation pins. I also use Aero Precision, Seekins, and Geissele (to name a few) parts in various roles. I spend my money on optics, bipods, and other accessories that have proven and quantifiable superiority over less expensive alternatives.
I've never had any parts fail on the ARs I've built for me or anyone else. Granted, I've never done a 5k round torture test, but with as many rifles as I've built, tested, and taken friends/family shooting with, statistically one of the "inferior" parts I've been building with should have failed. My rifles each have approx 1000 rounds or more through them... it's hard to keep count as I take a bucket of .223/5.56 ammo, not boxes, to the range when I go.
Any firearm, regardless of the price or quality, can have a failure. I have the same confidence in one of my ARs that I do in my buddy's DD Mk4 rifle or anyone else's BCM rifle.
Again, unless you have proof that BCM (for instance) pays more for better parts from better manufacturers than PSA (for instance) does, your argument is lacking in substance.
You said it yourself, You have never run the guns hard to know if they will hold up. 1000 rounds is barely breaking in a gun, much less enough to flesh out issues with inferior parts.
You say you have never had a parts fail on any AR you built, which means you never really built and use these weapons. Even properly built with quality part swill see the occasional failure . Anyone who has been in this for a while sees this doesn't pass the sniff test. I guess everyone is a wizzard on the internet.
I already addressed the failure issue and your concerns. Its a level of confidence. Not going to type the same stuff out so u can just gloss over it again and ask questions already addressed.
I know for a fact certain companies A. source from better manufactures and B. have a higher standard for acceptance of parts. This is assuming of course your PSA and other budget builds aren't using Chinese and offshore parts like they have already been caught doing. Nothing like some Chinese metallurgy in your lifesaving device to save a few pennies.
Your confidence level is not what I would consider acceptable. Your life and your friends and families lives may not be worth much to you, or through shear ignorance you don't know any better. I don't know which is worse.
You say you have never had a parts fail on any AR you built, which means you never really built and use these weapons. Even properly built with quality part swill see the occasional failure . Anyone who has been in this for a while sees this doesn't pass the sniff test. I guess everyone is a wizzard on the internet.
I already addressed the failure issue and your concerns. Its a level of confidence. Not going to type the same stuff out so u can just gloss over it again and ask questions already addressed.
I know for a fact certain companies A. source from better manufactures and B. have a higher standard for acceptance of parts. This is assuming of course your PSA and other budget builds aren't using Chinese and offshore parts like they have already been caught doing. Nothing like some Chinese metallurgy in your lifesaving device to save a few pennies.
Your confidence level is not what I would consider acceptable. Your life and your friends and families lives may not be worth much to you, or through shear ignorance you don't know any better. I don't know which is worse.
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I really don't like replying to this, but...
When I build my AR lowers, I don't even buy LPKs. I individually select and source my parts so I know I have quality components.
Takedown/pivot pins? V7, BAD, Seekins, JP
Detents? KNS
Mag Release? Used to be Ascend Armory. Since they're no longer around, V7.
You absolutely can build something far superior to a factory rifle if you take the time to learn your shit.
Define Superior? Its like the twighlight zone where you explain exactly why and how and they just keep droning the same shit.
A. How do you know they are quality parts? How have you or the industry tested them? Some fag on Instagram or youtube is not an authority on the subject.
B. How do you know how they will work together as a system, over time , in different conditions, dirty, wet, dry and no lube?
You can source all the name brand parts in the world and throw them together, doesn't mean you will end up with a quality gun. That's the whole fucking point. Without all the shit that goes on behind the scenes that joe homebrew can't or won't do, you will more often than not end up with an inferior product and cannot have enough confidence to take into harms way.
If you are the type that drives 180 on a sportbike with no helmet or bangs hookers without a jimmy, then you probably have no issue taking an unproven piece of shit into a fight because lets be frank, you never been in one.
Anyone else reading this who is on the fence, just buy a quality factory gun forcChrist sake. Save the homebuilds for hunting and range toys.
A. How do you know they are quality parts? How have you or the industry tested them? Some fag on Instagram or youtube is not an authority on the subject.
B. How do you know how they will work together as a system, over time , in different conditions, dirty, wet, dry and no lube?
You can source all the name brand parts in the world and throw them together, doesn't mean you will end up with a quality gun. That's the whole fucking point. Without all the shit that goes on behind the scenes that joe homebrew can't or won't do, you will more often than not end up with an inferior product and cannot have enough confidence to take into harms way.
If you are the type that drives 180 on a sportbike with no helmet or bangs hookers without a jimmy, then you probably have no issue taking an unproven piece of shit into a fight because lets be frank, you never been in one.
Anyone else reading this who is on the fence, just buy a quality factory gun forcChrist sake. Save the homebuilds for hunting and range toys.
Define superior. Okay, easy. As far as lower parts go, unless it's nitride/melonite or DLC/Ionbond finished, I don't buy it. Milspec/parkarized finished will wear/corrode/rust long before anything in any of my builds.
Is it necessary? No. Is it superior to Mil Spec? Uh, yeah.
Does KAC/Daniel Defense/LMT make a hell of a rifle? They sure do. If you buy one, you'll likely be happy.
I'm new to this forum. I really don't like starting shit, but this boomer-esque tactical elitism is ridiculous.
