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AR15 shooting technique

GetReal

Sergeant of the Hide
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Minuteman
Apr 15, 2020
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Always been more of a bolt gun guy. But recently got into AR's ...esp. handloads for decent accuracy (i.e. better than 2 moa)

But I hear AR's require some unique shooting technique. Longer holds, unique breathing, supporting the rifle during recoil, etc

Any video's, ideas, articles, links that specifically address this would be appreciates. Thank ya kindly.
 
But I hear AR's require some unique shooting technique. Longer holds, unique breathing, supporting the rifle during recoil, etc

The 5 points in the fundamentals of marksmanship don't change by changing from bolt gun to gas gun. NPA, Sight picture, Breathing, Trigger control and Follow through.

Best to seek in person professional instruction, so you don't ingrain bad habits.
 
The 5 points in the fundamentals of marksmanship don't change by changing from bolt gun to gas gun. NPA, Sight picture, Breathing, Trigger control and Follow through.

Best to seek in person professional instruction, so you don't ingrain bad habits.
Good thoughts. I've got the fundamentals down - and good results with - my bolt guns. Even in benchrest / F-class type comps (I don't use a mechanical rest)

Just wondering if AR's "shoot different" than bolt guns. In-person training still sounds good.
 
Same fundamentals, less forgiving of execution errors compared to a bolt gun. If you have bad habits/deficiencies they will be exposed whereas a bolt gun may hide them unless they are really bad.

Couple tips:
1) ensure you are properly setting up using your core to stabilize the rifle and apply preload (many incorrectly rely on the rear bag for this)

2) dont death-grip the grip otherwise the excess tension will cause subtle “reticle drift” (movement in the system imparted by excess grip tension that throws the shot wide) as most AR15/small-frame rifles aren’t heavy enough to offset that type of unintended movement
Good thoughts. I've got the fundamentals down - and good results with - my bolt guns. Even in benchrest / F-class type comps (I don't use a mechanical rest)

Just wondering if AR's "shoot different" than bolt guns. In-person training still sounds good.
 
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Someone will argue with me and tell me that I don't know how to shoot, but they are generally not as precise. I have a purpose-built precision gas gun and I'm happy as hell if I can find a load that will print 20 shots into 1 MOA. Typically it's 1.25-1.5 MOA. In a bolt gun I like it shooting 3/4 MOA for 20 shots, and can often get in the ballpark of .45-.6 MOA with enough massaging. What I often see with the AR is a cluster of 15-17 shots that mimicks what I'd see with a bolt gun, then 3-5 "fliers" that are broken well away from the group.

I believe you introduce limitations in trade for semi-auto function. Magazine length limitation, damage to the meplat/ogive from feed ramps, bullet seating concentricity suffers from rapid feeding, COAL varies after chambering due to inertial effects of the round slamming home, and lock time (hammer vs. striker). There's also the rigidity part of the equation with aluminum frame AR platforms. Not the end of the world with certain upper/handguard setups but certainly there with M4 uppers. The load effects on the "free float" handguard end up deflecting the barrel regardless.

There are things that require more care from the shooter to keeping a distortion-free POI/POA correlation, and the gun is beating the ammo up.
 
Someone will argue with me and tell me that I don't know how to shoot, but they are generally not as precise. I have a purpose-built precision gas gun and I'm happy as hell if I can find a load that will print 20 shots into 1 MOA. Typically it's 1.25-1.5 MOA. In a bolt gun I like it shooting 3/4 MOA for 20 shots, and can often get in the ballpark of .45-.6 MOA with enough massaging. What I often see with the AR is a cluster of 15-17 shots that mimicks what I'd see with a bolt gun, then 3-5 "fliers" that are broken well away from the group.

I believe you introduce limitations in trade for semi-auto function. Magazine length limitation, damage to the meplat/ogive from feed ramps, bullet seating concentricity suffers from rapid feeding, COAL varies after chambering due to inertial effects of the round slamming home, and lock time (hammer vs. striker). There's also the rigidity part of the equation with aluminum frame AR platforms. Not the end of the world with certain upper/handguard setups but certainly there with M4 uppers. The load effects on the "free float" handguard end up deflecting the barrel regardless.

There are things that require more care from the shooter to keeping a distortion-free POI/POA correlation, and the gun is beating the ammo up.

Very interesting. Its early yet, but my handloads are seeing the same thing - 1.25 - 1.50 moa, with 1 "flier" for every 5 rounds (the other 4 rounds are sub moa) . I don't beleive in "fliers" for bolt guns, but the variables introduced by self-loading / feed ramp / rounds "slamming home" might be complicating matters... maybe...
 
Just wondering if AR's "shoot different" than bolt guns.

Yep. Longer lock time, different recoil impulse, etc. are common "different" things about gas guns. However, proper fundamentals are just that, proper fundamentals.

If I were to say two, of the five things, that need "more" attention would be "trigger control" and "Follow Through." The "press/break/freeze" for the longer lock time. And "follow through" for the recoil impulse. A gas gun has, essentially, 3 recoil impulses. Whereas, a bolt gun has 1. So, the follow through requires more attention.
 
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Very interesting. Its early yet, but my handloads are seeing the same thing - 1.25 - 1.50 moa, with 1 "flier" for every 5 rounds (the other 4 rounds are sub moa) . I don't beleive in "fliers" for bolt guns, but the variables introduced by self-loading / feed ramp / rounds "slamming home" might be complicating matters... maybe...
How is this AR built and set up? 1.25-1.5 is great for a carbine set up, average for a precision-oriented build. My mk12 mod 1 is 1.0-1.25 moa at 100m with mk262 mod 1 and my clone load of mk262m1. It really shines between 300-600m, beyond which i dont shoot it much.
 
A gas gun has, essentially, 3 recoil impulses. Whereas, a bolt gun has 1. So, the follow through requires more attention.
OK, this is good.... help me identify the three impulses...???

Detonation, bolt cycling... ???
 
Someone will argue with me and tell me that I don't know how to shoot, but they are generally not as precise. I have a purpose-built precision gas gun and I'm happy as hell if I can find a load that will print 20 shots into 1 MOA. Typically it's 1.25-1.5 MOA. In a bolt gun I like it shooting 3/4 MOA for 20 shots, and can often get in the ballpark of .45-.6 MOA with enough massaging. What I often see with the AR is a cluster of 15-17 shots that mimicks what I'd see with a bolt gun, then 3-5 "fliers" that are broken well away from the group.

I believe you introduce limitations in trade for semi-auto function. Magazine length limitation, damage to the meplat/ogive from feed ramps, bullet seating concentricity suffers from rapid feeding, COAL varies after chambering due to inertial effects of the round slamming home, and lock time (hammer vs. striker). There's also the rigidity part of the equation with aluminum frame AR platforms. Not the end of the world with certain upper/handguard setups but certainly there with M4 uppers. The load effects on the "free float" handguard end up deflecting the barrel regardless.

There are things that require more care from the shooter to keeping a distortion-free POI/POA correlation, and the gun is beating the ammo up.
Give me a mk11 or m110 (or any reliable, reasonably precise large frame gas gun) anyday over a bolt gun if preponderance of targets are 800m and in (mk12 if 500 and in). Ill gladly trade off that .25 moa precision advantage a bolt gun brings for more rapid target engagement and a deeper magazine available on the gas gun.
 
How is this AR built and set up? 1.25-1.5 is great for a carbine set up, average for a precision-oriented build. My mk12 mod 1 is 1.0-1.25 moa at 100m with mk262 mod 1 and my clone load of mk262m1. It really shines between 300-600m, beyond which i dont shoot it much.

14.5 p&w flash hider. Good info. Thx.
 
Give me a mk11 or m110 (or any reliable, reasonably precise large frame gas gun) anyday over a bolt gun if preponderance of targets are 800m and in (mk12 if 500 and in). Ill gladly trade off that .25 moa precision advantage a bolt gun brings for more rapid target engagement and a deeper magazine available on the gas gun.
You'll get no argument from me of the effectiveness of a semi-auto within realistic engagement ranges. There's a reason the bolt action is obsolete save for very specific niche purposes in warfare.

However, in a PRS/NRL match, there is not a +.5 MOA larger target for those shooting gas gun, and the scores typically reflect that.
 
Fundamentals may be the same but no denying they are harder to shoot. My groups open up to 1”-1.25” with my gas gun while I’m at .5” with my bolt gun. Just a lot more going on with the AR platform as mentioned above so it takes a lot more attention and purpose.
 
Gas gun
1: when it goes bang
2: when the bolt moves rearward
3: when the bolt moves forward

Bolt gun:
1: when it goes bang
Last round bolt hold open gets me every time so it is something you may want to watch for. It is almost a guaranteed flyer for me. I try to focus on managing the 3 recoil impulses so when that bolt locks to the rear and doesn't slam home it throws me off (really exaggerated on a large frame AR) . All that mass locking to the rear just changes the recoil. i.e. there is a way different 3rd impluse. I can really see the difference when I do a 5 round group with 5 rounds in the mag vs when I shoot a 5 round group with 6+ in the mag.
 
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Last round bolt hold open gets me every time so it is something you may want to watch for. It is almost a guaranteed flyer for me. I try to focus on managing the 3 recoil impulses so when that bolt locks to the rear and doesn't slam home it throws me off (really exaggerated on a large frame AR) . All that mass locking to the rear just changes the recoil. i.e. there is a way different 3rd impluse. I can really see the difference when I do a 5 round group with 5 rounds in the mag vs when I shoot a 5 round group with 6+ in the mag.
Ive also seen this over the years and load a dummy round into the mag first when doing load dev testing or grouping drills so that last round flyer isnt an issue.
 
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Ive also seen this over the years and load a dummy round into the mag first when doing load dev testing or grouping drills so that last round flyer isnt an issue.
That is exactly what I do when I am working up a load. 5 rounds at each charge weight and a dummy round to keep the bolt recoil the same so I can evaluate group size just a little more accurately.
 
Always been more of a bolt gun guy. But recently got into AR's ...esp. handloads for decent accuracy (i.e. better than 2 moa)

But I hear AR's require some unique shooting technique. Longer holds, unique breathing, supporting the rifle during recoil, etc

Any video's, ideas, articles, links that specifically address this would be appreciates. Thank ya kindly.

A relevant thread with video's and pointers from various trainers who joined in the discussion.

 
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When peeps speak of "technique" with an AR I think they reference "Large Frame"

That big ass bolt carrier is an added problem to overcome.

Recoil on a .223 is negligible and the buffer spring I say much more in control of moving mass.
 
I guess my two questions:

1. What's your practice for "driving" the rifle? i.e. pre-loading the bipod / pulling the rifle via grip firing hand into your shoulder?

2. What's your practice re: readjusting body position when the recoil settles the gun left / right of the target?
 
Ive also seen this over the years and load a dummy round into the mag first when doing load dev testing or grouping drills so that last round flyer isnt an issue.

Never thought of that. Great idea. SO MANY times I get a great 4 round group and a 5th round SCUD missle..
 
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Never thought of that. Great idea. SO MANY times I get a great 4 round group and a 5th round SCUD missle..
Yea i got tired of it as well.

As far as rifle driving techniques, proper set up is critical for consistency in running the rest of the fundamentals correctly.

Use your core to achieve stability and preload your bipod.

At home, lay prone behind your rifle
(unloaded) and set up so your upper body/shoulder is over the back half of the stock. That will force you to lift up the back of the rifle to seat it as your body makes full contact with the ground.

Once fully prone, you should be able to hold that rifle in position for a prolonged period of time without the aid of either arm/hand. place your support hand on the bottom of the stock (or rear bag if using one) and your fire control hand lightly on the grip (do NOT death grip it or pull/push with your hand/arm). Your support hand’s only role is to make fine adjustments that aid in achiving natural point of aim…your firing control hand’s job is to stabilize your trigger finger…Confirm you have a complete sight picture.

practice achiving natural point of aim on something small and as far away as possible (place a shoot and see at the opposite end if your hallway from where you are, for example

Squeeze the trigger and watch the movement of your reticle - it should be perfectly still through the shot. Run these fundamentals correctly each time and it wont matter if your driving a small or large frame AR or bolt gun of any weight. Groups will shrink and hits at distance will go up.
 
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@nn8734 -

Thx!


But I'm not tracking how you went from prone to seated.....
Seated meaning your body is fully prone/flat on the ground, rifle in the shoulder pocket from when you were over the rifle’s buttstock.

“Seated” is probably not the best word choice, made an edit to the above post. I haven’t had my morning coffee yet, haha.
 
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Seated meaning your body is fully prone/flat on the ground, rifle in the shoulder pocket from when you were over the rifle’s buttstock.

“Seated” is probably not the best word choice, made an edit to the above post. I haven’t had my morning coffee yet, haha.


I ask cuz knees, neck, back won't allow me prone. Bench shooting is all I got. :)
 
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I ask cuz knees, neck, back won't allow me prone. Bnech shooting is all I got. :)
Sorry, it sucks to hear of anyone’s limitations but the core concept is the same: drive the rifle using your body while your arms/hands play more specific, narrowly defined roles.
 
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I was taught, which helped me, when you have the reticle centered, close your eyes. When you open them the reticle should be in the same position on your target. If it has moved, keep adjusting until you find a position that is locked in using the techniques mentioned above, requiring as little muscle input as nessecary.
 
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I ask cuz knees, neck, back won't allow me prone. Bench shooting is all I got. :)
You can still load the bipod when shooting from a bench. I've seen some guys attach a 2"x2" or 2"x4" to the bench, perpendicular to your rifle, in front of your bipod legs. This gives you something to push against, without the rifle scooting away from you. The board doesn't need to be permanently attached. You could use "C-clamps or the like to attach it, them remove when not required (or if it's not your bench.)

Keep in mind, "Loading" the bipod doesn't meaning bearing down with you full weight. Doing so can actually "flex" parts of your rifle, which results in erratic shots. You just want to load into enough so you can let go of the buttstock and it still remain perched in your shoulder/collar bone area.
 
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I found that sometimes I had first round fliers from having the bolt locked back and pushing the bolt release button to seat the first round. Started seating the magazine on a closed bolt and trying to do a quick manual load with the charging handle. It seemed to cut down on a lot of the fliers. Of course ymmv, as this is just one of those little things about gas guns that can be different, but you won’t know if it does it with your rifle unless you try. Imagine not knowing this and having a shooting son of a gun rifle, and going to a match, and then you can’t hit squat because of the first round loading inconsistencies. It could drive you looney trying to figure out those misses.
 
Last round bolt hold open gets me every time so it is something you may want to watch for. It is almost a guaranteed flyer for me. I try to focus on managing the 3 recoil impulses so when that bolt locks to the rear and doesn't slam home it throws me off (really exaggerated on a large frame AR) . All that mass locking to the rear just changes the recoil. i.e. there is a way different 3rd impluse. I can really see the difference when I do a 5 round group with 5 rounds in the mag vs when I shoot a 5 round group with 6+ in the mag.
Hasn't the bullet left the barrel before the BCG has caught the hold open?

To me the biggest difference is in position and follow through and recovery. I use a neutral bipod load and pull the rifle back into my body more. I watch guy's try to hard load their bipod but they're never able to manhandle the recoil. It always pushes them back and in this big, slow, flat loop, after they are pushed back, their body's natural point of aim pushes back forward against the bipod load. Their body and the rifle mimic the buffer. So I don't fight the gun. I pull it back into me and I don't forward load the bipod. That boomerang follow through is less melodramatic when you're body is already in the rear position.
I am noticing the same as far as pulling the rifle into my body. When I try to load the bi pod, it jumps and is hard to watch trace/impact, I loose the scope picture. I have been playing with pulling the buttstock into my shoulder, loading the gun into my body with the hand grip and support hand. I taking the slack out of the bi pod but not loading it. I can stay in the scope watch impacts and occasionally see traces.
You can still load the bipod when shooting from a bench. I've seen some guys attach a 2"x2" or 2"x4" to the bench, perpendicular to your rifle, in front of your bipod legs. This gives you something to push against, without the rifle scooting away from you. The board doesn't need to be permanently attached. You could use "C-clamps or the like to attach it, them remove when not required (or if it's not your bench.)

Keep in mind, "Loading" the bipod doesn't meaning bearing down with you full weight. Doing so can actually "flex" parts of your rifle, which results in erratic shots. You just want to load into enough so you can let go of the buttstock and it still remain perched in your shoulder/collar bone area.
Is it a good idea to train your technic to need something to load the bipod into?
 
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I would disagree. I had this exact same discussion with one of my bosses 7 years ago when he was critical about which guns guys were using. Bolt guns instead of SR25's.

When you can shoot a rapid fire string of 10rds sitting, slung in 10 secs at 300yds, which requires a 4rd reload in a BDL, you can run a bolt pretty efficiently. A good bolt gun shooter can cycle the bolt inside the follow through and recovery of a gas gun shooter. But the gas gun shooter has to be much more diligent about his wobble zone, follow through and recovery because of the increased lock time. The only advantage is the 20 rd mag. That's where the "firepower" comes from.

But here's the irony. When we started teaching snaps and movers with SR25's we were exceeding Knight's rate of fire. Just the target array, engagement time, and firing table was too fast for their recommended rate of fire. And you can really see the degradation of M110's after a couple of thousand rounds. They do not deal with heat well.

So ostensibly a gasser offer's more "firepower". IMO, it just has a bigger mag.
I’ve read numerous first hand accounts of m110s with faulty barrels, shot out at like 500-1000 rounds along with issues with “rapid-fire” strings, now including yours (that sucks). My understanding was that issue was much more prevalent in earlier M110 prod lots / barrels but KAC had made changes that brought down the frequency of those problems as time went on (please correct me if Im wrong about that). I believe its still in service if not active procurement but perhaps its being phased out by the CSASS - don’t know.

My statement comes from my own first hand experiences working with my m40A5 and mk11 mod 0 clones, as well as my other similar rifles (MWS, EMR) over the years engaging multiple steel targets under time, most of them 800m and in.

four assumptions (which in my case are true):
1). Shooter is equally proficient with
making hits via the gas and bolt gun
2). Same load (handloads using the 175 smk in my case)
3). One hit per target is sufficent
4). Optics are similar (two SBs in my case)

If im engaging 20 targets (all differing distances from the FFP) , i have 20 rounds before reloading in the mk11 whereas the A5 im reloading once mid-stream and 4+1 BDL im reloading 4x as often. Im nowhere near as fast reloading a BDL as some folks and even the DBM reloads (which are comparatively super fast by comparison) still take extra time.

Also, working the bolt (at least at my skill level) takes longer for me than waiting for the gas gun’s reciprocating mass to cease so that i can prepare for the next shot. I consider myself middle of the road when it comes to bolt manipulation and can manage recoil fairly well.

Ive never really ran my mk11 like it was a small frame carbine or done what most would consider full-on mag dumps with it but i have strung together 30-40 shots in short time under relatively high heat (im in Vegas) with the can multiple times and havent noticed any decline in its performance (thank God). I can say that while hit probably is the same, i have always been faster with the gas gun out to 800 beyond which I hardly ever shoot either of them.

Admittedly ive never compared the two rifles head to head via 10 shot strings on targets at the same distance (200-300m) - perhaps ill give that a try soon and see if I notice anything, particularly from the mk11 (im assuming you’re ralking about engaging 10 small targets, one round per at that distance)

Personal experience plays the biggest role in shaping our decisions so for me, I’d always pick the gas gun simply based on mine. However In thinking about what you’ve seen and described above, I totally understand why you’d opt for the bolt gun. And I’d prob do the same if my gas gun performance / reliability went down the tubes like that on a regular basis.
 
You would be the first I've heard that KAC improved the M110. It is still in service but the maintenance contract is not. They're pretty much broke-dick rifles unless units use O&M funds to buy new uppers
Gotcha. i recall reading J Leuba discussing those early units on ARFcom, early rifles had bad barrels , etc but they changed their blank supplier and issues/complaints went down but id have to locate it to be sure of the specifics. Also think it was mentioned that KAC requested to make changes (engineering change order, i believe was the term used) but the DoD rejected them. Take that with a grain of salt at least until i can find the link.
 
By “Early” I’m referring to initial production lots of m110s that were issued in the late 2000s (2008-2010ish). Couple buddies of mine also used them when in (2012-2016 time frame) and while they didnt rave about them they also havent mentioned major complaints, at least nothing similar to your sentiments.

Its all good, man. I’m not trying to argue with you all night (I defer to your direct experience as far as the 110 is concerned) but I prefer gas guns over bolt guns.
 
I have light flat single stage triggers on my AR, as I do with everything trying to standardize best I can.

With the AR it’s mostly the recoil, bang, bolt back, bolt forward.
If you are shooting a old style buffer you also get trash can noises, a silent capture spring eliminates that.
 
Hasn't the bullet left the barrel before the BCG has caught the hold open?

Last round bolt hold open gets me every time so it is something you may want to watch for. It is almost a guaranteed flyer for me. I try to focus on managing the 3 recoil impulses so when that bolt locks to the rear and doesn't slam home it throws me off (really exaggerated on a large frame AR) . All that mass locking to the rear just changes the recoil. i.e. there is a way different 3rd impluse. I can really see the difference when I do a 5 round group with 5 rounds in the mag vs when I shoot a 5 round group with 6+ in the mag.

If last round bolt hold open is "causing" flyers, that has to be in your head; a mental thing allowing you to cause the flyers.

The bullet has left the barrel before the bolt even unlocks, long before it cycles back and then catches the bolt stop. Of course it "feels different" to the shooter, but the bullet is gone by that point so it should not have any effect, unless you're doing something different knowing it's the last round.
 
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Been doing a lot of bench shooting ar, testing new loads with whatever powder I can get.

I like shooting from bags.
First round last round flier has plagued me. A dummy round goes in first, the five test rounds next then a known good controll round on top.

Wtf, no, the first round is shot at controll target then the five test rounds at thier individual target.
I also had 3 trash rounds in that controll target of a poor round I was just dumping.

I normaly slingshot the bolt or slap the holdback release. That will have to change. The first controll rounds ended up in a normal flier position but in one ragged hole.

The first round is my flier and very repeatable so it seems. I'm going to keep doing it the same way but ride my first round in place instead. (It's a one way range) and the first round was off enough to ruin groops but still viable on center mass.

One thing I do on a bench is square up and push my chest against it.

Anyway here is the trashpile target clearly showing the three crapy hornady sp 55g rounds and then the first round " controll" shots that I didn't watch closely while shooting because I was testing 55g with h335 (it sucked).

This is the trash pile trying to eliminate first round fliers.

16307391383065464185986864028194.jpg


I used the two inch dot to keep me on track. Hell I may keep using them as I have a thick retical in that scope.
 
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I agree about the last round being no different; they're all gone before the bolt starts its rearward motion. I suggest being more definite about the follow-through.

One aspect we don't seem to be considering is that the bolt gun may or may not be changing its mass with each shot depending on whether it's being fed singly or from the magazine. The AR would seem to have the same issue. If feeding the AR singly, is a SLED being used? If the AR's overall mass changes between shots, doesn't this alter physics of the individual feeding process between shots?

One technique I've made a matter of religion is to push the bolt assist firmly every time I release the bolt from the holdback. No idea if it's a help; but I do know that the process I use is consistent every time.

This past year, I've been trying to experiment with something I've never actually seen elsewhere, a true bag rider/BR AR.

I built five of them in chamberings varying from 223, through 6.5 Grendel, to .308 since Christmas; then I came down with a near fatal case of Pneumonia in late February, and I've been almost exclusively restricted to my home on Oxygen. Well, that's changing, and I'm hoping to be out, about, and doing range work very soon; politics and all notwithstanding. Shooting an AR that doesn't need a preload will be an interesting prospect.

If my suspicions are correct, this experiment could have results that make AR shooting quite a bit more like shooting a bolt gun. To forestall questions, the bores, rear stocks, and handguards have been set up to be essentially parallel and will be shot exclusively with a front rest and a rear bag. Testing with loaded magazines and SLEDs will also be part of the testing regimen.
 
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What about twist rate and torsional forces and how to mitigate them. The 2nd video begins to touch on it, but I believe part of what you are seeing in torsion force is a result of twist rate.
 
Molon;

Thank you greatly for the heads up. It truly makes sense that I'm not the first guy to get the idea.

With regard to the questions and the differences; what issues, improvements, etc., have you noted from bag riding the AR?

Where should I be concentrating, and how can I make best use of the setup?

Your help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Meanwhile, I checked Midway for the EGW Pic Rail Bag Rider, and ordered one. One should be plenty for this stage, since I can only shoot one gun at a time. If changing it over becomes a drag, I'll look into buying more. I also ordered the one for the free float tube, to work with my Stag Model 6's.

This should work far better than my improvised solution.

Greg
 
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