are high dollar rifles worth the money?

[azfyrmedic]

I am new, don't have a good rifle yet, but I have been looking around this site.
I have seen a big difference in prices on guns that seem simular.
I recognize that the higher cost rifles and actions have things like blue printing and so on, but is there really a big enough difference in a remington 700 action for a few hundred and a custom action for a couple of thousand to justify the cost?
To put it simple is it worth it to spend 7000. on a gun when I can get one for so much less?

 

[Turk]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

$7k is a stretch!

 

[BobinNC]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Yes, No, and Maybe. In this case I'm assuming $3.5 for the rifle, and $3.5K for the glass and accouterments.

Yes, the money is worth it if you have the skill to use the instrument. Shooting, like any other endeavor requires both inherent skills, and practice.

No, if one does not have the skill, then spending the money on the rifle transforms it into an art object, and not the tool it was designed for.

Maybe, certainly if one has some skill, putting the "best" tool in their hands, can make the shooter better. But remember you cannot buy skill. You either have or you don't.

In the end, in the world of firearms, $7000. might indeed buy a fine tactical rifle. I have never owned a $7000. rifle. But I have owned a few $7000. shotguns. And in the shotgun world, that's chump change. But at some point, you not really buying a better gun, you just buying more gold, better wood, and more naked vestal virgins. It is a firearm transformed into a work of art.

On the other hand the $7k you would spend on a tactical rifle your buying function over form. And that may well be worth the price of admission.

Bob

 

[azfyrmedic]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Sorry Turk, I guess 5K is closer?
I was being a bit dramatic I guess to try tomake my question clear.

Bob, I wonder at what point it stops improving function of the gun.
I am having a hard time phrasing my question.
At what point does the gun stop getting better and become a gee whiz kinda thing.

 

[Turk]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Perhaps a point of diminishing returns?

 

[BobinNC]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

azfyrmedic,

No $7k was a pretty good guess. Price a made to order GAP or Tac Ops rifle, put S&B or Hensholdt Glass on top, buy some mags, add an Atlas BiPod, and a bunch of ammo and stuff, and your damn close to your fully outfitted $7K tactical rifle.

I would think it would stop right about there. Anything over a GAP or Tac Ops or the like, means more fluff and less real working stuff. But that's IMHO only.

Are they worth the money? Yes, but you have to have the knowledge, skills and ability to use the tool. If you don't; then yes, your wasting your money. But it is your money to waste is it not.....

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Some rifles are sold with different levels of wood and finish, and the price difference can be dramatic. There are people who will buy the high end version to have a nice looking rifle that shoots no better than the basic model.

Even when there are functional advantages to a higher priced version, the Law of Diminishing Returns applies because, well, the returns are diminished!

 

[SPRINKLE]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Man i think its keeping up with the Joneses. you can pick up a full set up from GPS for 3k that will get the job done. but you can have all the bells and whistles and yes they are very nice guns for 3,4,5,7 k its up to you. I have IOR scopes I love them but the leupold mk 4 tmr for 500 less will get it done if you know what i mean..

 

[JC Steel]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

No. Spend about half as much and use the rest for something else.

 

[azfyrmedic]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Turk I agree, at what point is the amount of return no longer worth it though. 2K, 3k or what?
I noticed you just took delivery of a nice looking rifle is it worth the money? Why? what makes it better the a 700 ADL?

I know I would not be able to shoot better then an out of the box savage, but I would love to learn on a gun that I know I will never be held back by.
So should I budget for a 5K gun or 2K ?

It all boils down to, I am not smart enough to know what is excessive.

As I read my posts in this thread I can see where there may be a bit of a tone coming across on my part.
Please know I am not trying to sound bad I am truely curious.
I truely appreceate your time and sharing of your knowledge.
In short no offense intended.

 

[azfyrmedic]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Wow, thanks for the responses guys, while I was writing my last several more showed up.

 

[Turk]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Don't short change yourself in the smartness; perhaps just inexperienced! Mine was worth every penny and then some! Accuracy, reliability, and robustness coupled w/ customization, makes it worth it to me. $4k w/ optics is where the point of diminishing returns starts w/ me.

 

[USMCj]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

My latest build (APA Surgeon 7WSM, Rock fluted barrel, USO scope) ran up to about $7000 in parts and labor (inludes everything from bipod to rings) Is it worth it? to me....Hell yes!

Why? because now I know I cant blame the equipment for shooter error, LOL

 

[dksd39]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

There are many different ways to look at this. Yes, $7k is a lot of money but is so easily spent that it is scary. I used many factory rifles before I started buying custom and then bounce back and forth so many times that I could have purchased a very nice house with the cash I have spent. That said the knowledge gained in the process was needed and has helped me progress as a shooter. My current go to platform is a Desert Tactical- as it sits I have $10k invested in package. Since you are just getting started I think you would be best served learning on a factory platform. Then you can decide which direction you want to go and will learn from the process as most of us have.

 

[Tarjan]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

D'Arcy Echols. Don't really know why his sticks are so $$$ But this just shows that you can spend a lot of dough for no reason. Well maybe a Purdy or bespoke Holland & Holland or Fabbri. There is "true value" and "perceived value". In the rifle game, I am still trying to figure out where the line is.

 

[bsp212]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azfyrmedic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am new, don't have a good rifle yet, but I have been looking around this site.
I have seen a big difference in prices on guns that seem simular.
I recognize that the higher cost rifles and actions have things like blue printing and so on, but is there really a big enough difference in a remington 700 action for a few hundred and a custom action for a couple of thousand to justify the cost?
To put it simple is it worth it to spend 7000. on a gun when I can get one for so much less? </div></div>

In a word, yes.

The problem you will have once you bite the bullet is you will no longer be satisfied with most of the factory rifles available today. Most of them will not measure up to a custom in terms of repeatable performance. This will start a long, painfull, expensive process of acquisition after acquisition after acquisition...you get the point.

 

[eleaf]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I just purchased my first precision rifle, a Rem 700P LTR. I originally bought very good-not-great optics in the Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x50 Tactical with quality rings and base.

Soon after, I decided that I wanted a "better" stock, which is to say one that I liked better for a variety of reasons ranging from "I prefer a thumbhole stock" (which I do), to "It looks much cooler."

I have also since upgraded optics to a NF 5.5-22x56 Mil/Mil scope.

Has any of that made me a better shooter? Yes and no.

I actually do prefer a thumbhole stock. The one that I got, an HS Precision PST083 with adjustable LOP and cheekpiece, and the customizability of it have made my shooting position more comfortable, and I feel like I have a better handle on the rifle. Because of this, I have become a better shooter.

The new, high end glass I have is being used at 300 yards, a task all too easy for the very good Elite 4200 I had. That said, I am wanting to go to a precision course this year, and I want the best equipment I can reasonably bring.

My advice is this: Buy the best you can when you buy your kit, and concentrate more on your glass than your rifle. It's better to have a factory rifle and a great scope than a Tac Ops sporting a Buckmaster. You don't need a $4k rifle with $3k in glass to shoot well. A factory rifle with some good glass will get you a long way. My LTR shoots well under .5 MOA at 200 yards on average, and has shot as small as .3 MOA at 200 yards. It's when your looking for small differences in performance delivered by precision rifle smithing that spending loads of cash makes the differences. I would never see a suitable difference between my LTR and a Tac Ops. I'm simply not a good enough shot. But a competition shooter who wins or loses because of .001" will certainly appreciate what an extra $3k can buy you.

Buy a good factory rifle, and spend the bulk of you budget on glass.

 

[Mustafa]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

From what I have seen and experienced, you can get an MOA rifle for $600-700. If you go up to $1000, like the Rem 700 5R, you can improve on that a bit. After that, you start talking customization. A few hundred to get your factory rifle worked over by a decent smith might net you a little bit better accuracy. The next step is full custom guns from people like GAP. Are they more accurate? Sure. But you might have gun that shoots .5 MOA for $2500, or one that shoots .75 MOA for $1000. If YOU aren't good enough to see that .25 MOA difference yet (and I know I'm not!) then you are probably better off spending a grand on a decent rifle, around that or more for some good glass, then anything else you were going to spend on the rifle/optics/etc, should go towards a ton of ammo and some quality training such as you'd get at Rifles Only.

A side note, the glass you are best off spending some money on because even if you shoot your rifle till it won't shoot anymore, if you invested in good glass, you can just swap it to your next rifle...Buy once, cry once...

 

[guy2205]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

When you build a custom rifle you build it for you to suit you. I once owned a lot of rifles,i needed one for this and one for that,i sold the lot and now i own 3 custom rifles that i'm very happy with. If you can afford it go with a custom as you will never look back

 

[beenjammin]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

This is how I justified it:

What about the guys that drop the same or more on other hobbies like: motorcycles, boats, photography, tools, etc. My hobby is shooting my rifle and reloading. I would say I love my AIAW every bit as much as a Harley Davidson Rider that loves his Hog.

Plus, I didn’t do it all at once either. I started out with a Remington Pss and a Springfield Armory tactical scope. As I got more money, I sold and traded and worked my way up. The nice thing about this hobby is that the rifles and scopes generally do not depreciate too much if you take care of them. So you pretty much retain what you have put in until you are ready to move up to the next step. Can’t do this with a motorcycle or a camera. Especially not a boat

.

Some good advice I have read and hear is: "to buy once and cry once." I just could not do it this way. Some other guys guys say: "Buy a decent rifle and spend the rest on ammo and training.." Good advice, but again I liked trying multiple rifles for myself. Id shoot with one for a while and later sell it and try something else, until I got what I felt was just right for me. It was fun and I can give an insiders perspective on lots of the latest scopes and rifles that are popular becuase I have tried them out for myself. Its just what I like about this hobby. I may not be the best shot by any means, but I sure am one of the ones having the most fun learning each time I go to the range.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

It's all perspective.

Can you play golf with a set of old garage sale clubs? Sure.

Can you play better with an expensive set of custom clubs? Possibly.

Could Tiger Woods kick my ass with a set of garage sale clubs even if I was rocking the most expensive clubs on the planet? You bet.

Someone hit the nail on the head earlier. For most this is a hobby. They enjoy spending money on it. It's not all about if the $7K stick shoots $4K better than the $3K stick. It's about gadgetry and pride of ownership.

For some it's about getting the job done no matter what. For those, the extra money equates to guaranteed precision in any weather in any location. That guarantee is priceless when lives are on the line.

If you are just breaking into the LR Shooting scene, then it's unlikely you will be able to realize the difference between a factory or custom precision rifle at anything more than 100 yards. If you have the cash and take the time to do your homework, then there is no reason not to "buy once, cry once" and go with the top of the line. If you have to choose between ammo or an expensive stock, then there isn't a choice. Ammo and trigger time will trump shiny shit.

 

[Matthais_31]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

All good stuff posted here. I was in the same boat not too long ago, and opted for a factory rifle. Soon after I began hand loading and my groups shrank drastically.

As nice as it would be to know that your equipment isnt holding you back, there is a lot to be said for learning on a factory rifle. Had I bought myself a full custom straight off the bat with no shooting experience, I would likely have bought a rifle that I wouldn't have been happy with a year or two down the line. I say this because as you shoot and practise on your first rifle, you will develop an idea of what you want in a custom rifle. Do you want a light rifle or a heavy rifle? What scope magnification do you prefer using? What calibre would work best for you? All of these questions become easier to answer once you have some practical experience.

So long story short - yes customs are worth it, but I personally wouldn't take the plunge on one for a first rifle.

 

[MK14 SEI]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I wish I had gone with a custom built M14 first, but I followed everyone's advice and purchased a brand new Springfield Armory, Inc. M1A. The factory lifetime warranty came in handy because I had to use it four times before I had fired approximately 600 rounds.

My M1A is long gone and I now own four custom built Smith Enterprise, Inc. M14s. Thousands of rounds fired with zero failures or repairs. My ultra reliable high dollar rifles are definitely worth the money.

 

[Mag 300]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

All depends on how you look at it , if your looking to "spray" bullets downrange NO
if your looking to peform a head shot at 1000 meters YES

all depends on what you want and how accurate you want to be
Bill

 

[garandman]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

A $400 rifle can shoot 5" at 100 yards.

A $800 rifle can shtot 2" at 100 yards.

A $1600 rifle can shoot 1" at 100 yards.

A $3000 rifle can shoot 1/2" at 100 yards.

A $6000 rifle can shoot 1/4 inch at 100 yards.

Depends upon how much that next nevel of precision is worth to you.

If your life depends on the performance of your rifle, $6000 seems like a fair price to me.

 

[Lindy]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

It's not just about accuracy.

I have two Winchester Model 70 HBV rifles in .308. Both were sub-MOA out of the box. Both were less than $700.

What you also get for more money is also reliability. You can take an Accuracy International AW anywhere on the planet, and be assured that it will shoot sub-MOA <span style="font-style: italic">under all conditions</span>.

The same is true of an M40A3 or A5 built by the Marine Corps Precision Weapons Shop.

If you have a rifle which will shoot a quarter-MOA or less, it's probably <span style="font-style: italic">less</span> reliable in field conditions, because the primary technique for building such a rifle is to do it with a tight chamber, which will not tolerate much in the way of dirt.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I you think a better rifle will improve your accuracy, borrow one. If it does, buy one.

This is not rocket surgery...

Greg

 

[gugubica]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

One thing that many people don't realize is this: A custom rifle is just that CUSTOM. That is, a rifle built for you to your specs.

How do you know what you wnat in a rifle if you have not shot a lot of rifles? This is a very personal sport. One size does not fit all. Every shooter needs to figure out what works best for them.

When you figure that out, a custom stick may indeed be the only way to get everything that you want in a rifle. Having complete confidence in youe rifle will make you a better shooter.

I agree that it is not entirely about accuracy. High end sticks do tend to be more accurate as a whole. How much more, in reality, not much. You need to feel comfortable with your rifle, both physically and mentally. Your rifle needs to fit you both physically and purposefully. You need to trust 100% that your rifle will do what you tell it to (even more so if you are on a two way).

I have been doing this for a long freakin' time. I am still not as good of a shooter as a lot of guys (in fact, I would not consider myself good in any regaurd). What I have found out along the way is what equipment I like and what does and does not work for ME. That will not be the same as what works for you.

 

[steve123]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azfyrmedic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am new, don't have a good rifle yet, but I have been looking around this site.
I have seen a big difference in prices on guns that seem simular.
I recognize that the higher cost rifles and actions have things like blue printing and so on, but is there really a big enough difference in a remington 700 action for a few hundred and a custom action for a couple of thousand to justify the cost?
To put it simple is it worth it to spend 7000. on a gun when I can get one for so much less? </div></div>

Yes a custom rifle is worth the money"for all the reasons in previous posts",IMO.

I've owned many stock factory rifles over the years and none of them shot below MOA consistently even though I had them glass bedded,etc.I know they exist but I never got lucky I guess.

My favorite custom rifle has a all that can be done to it Rem 700 with PTG bolt and sako extractor.Sure I like it,"Ergonomics-cartridge" and the gun shoots .4 at 100 yards but the action still falls short compared to my other "custom" actions in the way it cycles and feels.At the rear of the stroke it binds,it feels gritty compared to the customs and the force it takes to close the bolt down is not as slick as the customs.Fortunately I bought the gun used and saved at least a $1000 over new.I'm sure the previous owner had $400-500 into the action work, PTG bolt,sako extractor,tubb firing pin and spring.Sometimes you can spend as much getting a stock action + getting it gunsmithed up as compared to just buying the custom action.

If you are starting from scratch it just makes sense to spend the $ and get a custom action.

All that being said I would not spend $7000 for a rifle alone.You can spend less than half that for a full custom.

Do yourself a favor and get a hold of Steve at Schneider barrels in Payson and ask them for Mike L's phone #.Explain to him your goals/money to spend and build a good rifle that you can be assured will shoot!

Edit to say: Or buy a good used custom rifle with low round count from the firearms for sale section.

Steve

 

[hunter223]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

yep sure are

 

[shooting4life]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Edit to say: Or buy a good used custom rifle with low round count from the firearms for sale section.</div></div>

Best advice in the entire thread imho

 

[rundm]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I think in a sense the custom gun is worth it because you get to choose exactly what you want on a rig. Will they shoot dramatically better than some off the shelf guns, no I do not think they will shoot better than all the off the shelf guns. Point in case, I just put together a 5r in an aics stock with nice bolt, seekins bases, rings and my premier scope. I had been trying to put this gun together to look sort of like an AI, which I love. Took me 8 months to put this together. Took it to the range and it will shoot 1/2 moa consistantly and sometimes much better at 200, little more at 300. Many custom guns shoot better than this but not sure how much better consistantly. Anyways, my buddy loved this gun and put a bug in my ear about an AI. I ended up selling this gun to him and buying the AI that I LOVE. We were out at the range yesterday and he just started shooting a couple of months ago. The 5r shot a couple of groups of .75in at 200 yards. Another one of my buddies tried it and did the same thing. Norther just came in and wind was blowing. Neither of them had ever shot the rifle before. My AI did better but did defiantely cost me a little more. I still would not trade the AI back for the 5r even though I know the 5r is a hell of a gun. Moral of this story is that there are plenty of guns out there that will on occasion outshoot an expensive gun but they will they do it all the time. Custom is custom and we buy things because of the way they look and feel to us. We use performance as the reason. At least I do. I have several other custom guns, not from gap but built up by competent gun smiths. Still, that AI is one hell of a stick.

 

[GCMxVeGeTa]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

My own opinion is that I'd find an action I like already, Remington/Savage/whatever and fix it up. Then you can take the extra money reloading custom ammo for it and specialized training classes.

Also, I'd much rather spend $1,000 for training or practicing than spend it on the rifle or fancy optics.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Yes, custom rifles are worth every penny. To give an example of what happens when you purchase a off the shelf Remington; I purchased a Remington XCR Tactical LR for around $1300 with taxes and DROS fees. The rifle was a 2 MOA rifle, so I took it to a gunsmith and had the action trued, the barrel set back, the trigger set to 2.5 lbs. and a Tac Ops bolt handle put on it; all for about $700. So, now that I had about $2000 into the rifle I wanted to get a McMillan stock. That was going to round about $900 with shipping. So, I would of had $2900 into .5 MOA rifle. You can get a custom for that price or maybe a little more that shoots better. I think you can get a Tac Ops Tango 51 for about $3500 and that's a 1/4 MOA. So, for me I would go custom just because of my experience. Good luck to whatever you decide to do.

Jamie

 

[steve123]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Custom AICS 6x47L stiller krieger.

It's in the Rifles for sale section.A perfect example in the perfect cartridge IMO!!!!!

Steve

 

[Graham]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

With a less expensive factory rifle YOU are the quality control: if it doesn't shoot MOA (or whatever they guarantee) then send it back. That's the (explicit) deal.

If you know how to troubleshoot a factory rifle, and are willing to make sure it has the base attached squarely, a round chamber, and a few other things, then you are only taking a risk on the lack of a propper bedding job and the luck-of-the-draw barrel. Some shoot quite well, even all jacked-up. Others don't. You're purchase will be the test.

On the other hand, with a custom rifle, part of the extra expense is for the by-hand labor that is too expensive to be put into factory rifles anymore. That, and much, much better (more precise, more reliable, and more expensive) components. What you get is a greatly reduced chance that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the rifle. And you start a relationship with a builder who will help you, give you advice, and take care of you with regard to your equipment needs.

Same goes for good glass: there might be something wrong with your 3.5K S&B, but a 99% chance says there isn't. Conversely, your $99 Tasco might track perfectly and last forever. But there's a 99% chance that it won't.

The Accuracy International AE rifle is a factory rifle worth the money. Full stop. The AW series is better, but only if you can justify the expense as an investment or otherwise. In my experience they shoot to about the same levels of accuracy.

What you need when you start out is a rifle that won't burden you with reliability or accuracy problems, and is forgiving of your mistakes. That will allow you to learn and to improve.

If you have the money (3K), I'd say get an AE or a base build from GAP or one of the known builders on this site. If you don't have the money, get a Rem 700 5R Milspec for under a grand.

 

[JC Steel]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Since this is your first "good" rifle you should follow my lead.

I went and bought a factory Rem 700 on the cheap. I then took the barrel off it and sold it. Bought a new rock barrel with the specs I wanted. Put a good stock on it that fits me nice that came with badger BM. Used good mounts and rings with an average Leupold Mark 4 scope and there you have it. You can have your rifle done and out the door for about $1400-1500. Scope is additional at about another $1200-1500. Altogether I have about $2600 wrapped up in mine with great results. I have a hard time missing the same hole a 100 yards. Dont really think me spending another $3000-5000 dollars would put it through the same hole any better. If I spent more money how much better can I do than under 1/2 inch all day long.

 

[Graham]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

The FN barreled actions from CDNN shoot quite well when bedded by into a McMillan stock - all for under $1400.

GAP sells Templar barreled actions for about $1650, depending on features. But, then, you might as well have them bed it into a Manners for another $700 or so: $2500 will get you a top-notch rig.

 

[ToddM]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

It depends on your definition of high dollar and also custom.

If you go to a small custom shop that their reputation relies on their performance I think for sure if you drop a chunk of money the rifle will perform. You will get it exactly as you want, wait for it, and pay a premium. The GAP badger I had built was a tack driver, period.

If you spend a few hundred on a factory rifle you might get one that shoots great. My LTR shoots as well as I can for less than $1000 with some changes. It's not custom, it's not what I would have built if I could choose every component myself. However, I also had a 5R that didn't shoot nearly as well and had to be smithed over first. Certainly there are a host of factory remington, savage,FN rifles that shoot great, but some don't so it can be a crapshoot. If you end up having to do a lot of work to it, it can be as expensive as a custom rig.

Now there's a whole middle ground of companies selling rifles that are "custom" with accuracy guarantees and even "proven test targets" that frankly in my experience are no better than the crapshoot with cheaper factory rifles. HS precision, cooper Kimber, Nosler, etc. Are a few examples. My HS precision cost as much as a custom rifle and didn't perform. It's not bedded, and out of the box it had to go back to HS to be re barreled because it wouldn't shoot. It shoots great now, but cost a lot of money in ammo and shipping plus frustration to get it that way. I'm troubleshooting a Nosler rifle right now that's also around $2800 new that doesn't perform, the bedding is a joke, the trigger was iffy at best, the ceracote used on the bolt gums up the action and it seems to have feeding issues. Worse yet this one also doesn't seem to shoot worth a darn. So you can spend a lot of money on a rifle but that doesn't mean it will perform either. The companies will usually address the issue but the bottom line is for that much $ they should be right from the start. Frankly I think they slack on quality control because they know that 90% of the buyers can't shoot good groups anyway, and won't bother to send it back or complain so they'd rather slack on quality control and deal with the few that are sent back than put out a better product.

There are also other high end "factory" rifles that do perform very well consistently, the sako trg, AI etc. could be put in this group.

So it all depends, both on your expeirence and exactly what you are looking at buying.

For example I wouldn't hesitate to buy a sako TRG/AI and wonder about the quality or if it would shoot, but I'd never buy another HS precision. If I buy a sub $1000 rifle like an LTR/5R/Tikka/etc. you accept that it's probalby going to be a really good shooter, but it may not be and that's the trade off at the price point.

 

[Cartman]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Dude, I have a $17,000 shotgun -- no optics -- and it still won't hit shit without the guy behind it doing his part. Consider rifle shooting a bargain.

 

[35WLN]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I mostly shoot 3gun but I wanted to venture into LR. I bought a rem PSS in 308. I shot it awhile with Leupold glass and I didn't feel "undergunned" at all. Down the road I sent it to Mike at Tacops for a tune up. I now have a gun that shoots better than 1/4". The next to upgrade is the glass and it will be S&B when the funds allow. I think this approach is better than upgrading to new platforms when you get the itch. I took a stock gun and learned with that then upgraded as funds allowed.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cartman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dude, I have a $17,000 shotgun -- no optics -- and it still won't hit shit without the guy behind it doing his part. Consider rifle shooting a bargain. </div></div>
+1 (skeet and sporting clays are my comfort zone) Rifles are cheap compared to shotguns (obviously with exceptions) but if you can shoot it doesn't matter. All you are doing is taking the mechanical part out of the equation.

I'm new to rifles and I'm in with a new Rem 5R with a Nightforce... I could easily swap stocks, barrels, actions, etc but I'm following the advice of the knowledge here... I'll shoot the snot out of it to take care of my part before I start upgrading to what my style/fit is simply because I don't know yet. The stock 5R shot .283 and .487 first time out.

Ammo and practice first. Just my n00b opinion though!

 

[Graham]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

There is much written above about MOA. MOA claims are simply marketing. Someone wrote above that a factory rifle will shoot 2 MOA, a $3000 custom rifle will shoot 1/2 MOA, and a $6000 rifle will shoot 1/4 MOA. Well, not really. Let’s do the mental math:

As a practical matter, there’s no such thing as the difference between a rifle that will shoot 1/2 MOA and a rifle that will shoot 1/4 MOA. Why? Because a 1/4 MOA difference in performance is a degree that is limited by the quality of ammunition.

Rifle, ammo, and shooter are a system: In the tactical precision rifle game you can’t hold 1/4 MOA regardless of the ammo you are using. Therefore, in the field and at any kind of distance, you won’t be able to hold better than the best rifle you can buy.

Put a 1/4 MOA rifle together with 1/4 MOA ammo, and you have a combination that will shoot around 1/2 MOA. Put the best shooter on his best day behind this system and, if he can consistently 1/2 MOA (and although no one I know can) you’ve still got a 1 MOA system. And that would be a 1 MOA system that would win any match out there on any day of the week.

That’s why it’s never too early to spend big money on the best equipment. But it’s also why the best and most expensive rifle is useless without the best ammo available for it. And even then, assuming you’ve purchased both, the weakest link is still the shooter.

Training, by comparison, is cheap: I just got back from the Terry Cross/Jim Clark match. I shot for two days against some of the best shooters from two continents. Total cost to me: $150.00 entry fee plus gas and hotel. And I snagged a very nice $300 aluminum case from the prize table. Did a 6.5 make for a measurable difference over a .308 in this match? Nope. Would I want to take a week off and shoot the match with a $700 1 MOA rifle? Probably not. But would I have entered the match with it if that’s all I had? You bet! Because shooting skill was, and is, more important than equipment.

 

[Cartman]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Azfyrmedic, take another stab at it, though I wouldn't be surprised if someone else said it already above.

You <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">may</span></span> get a great shooting gun for under $1,000.

There are several custom makers talked about here like GAP and wnroscoe that, for $3,000-$5,000 will build you a rifle that, from all reports, <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">will</span></span> shoot great.

Or you can spend the $7,000 or so you mentioned on a AIAW that will not only shoot pretty damn well, but will do it after going through hell and back, or so they say.

All this, of course, requires ammunition that suits that particular rifle, and a skilled driver.

Now then:

What do you need it for?

How much disposable income do you have?

How many different hobbies do you have and how much longer to live?

Etc.

Hopefully it is obvious that what is "worth it" to one person may not be worth it to another.

It is said in the high end of many fields that it costs 100% more for only 10% extra performance. Sometimes it is worse than that.

I mentioned one of my trap guns above not to be funny, but to illustrate a deeper point. My household income is over $500K a year. I don't have kids to put through college. I'm married and don't need to hustle a trophy bride. I have walked away from shoots with gold coin belt buckles, class trophies, and over $1,200 in a single shoot. I've put the lean times behind me and am on the down hill slope of enjoying myself before I die.

The extra costs to get a gun with a handmade stock fitted to me, that shoots where I'm looking, and can take the beating of 300 full-house trap loads a day for a solid week at a big shoot, is absolutely worth it to <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">ME</span></span>.

If I were a younger guy, with an entry level job, and a new baby, I find it hard to imagine that I wouldn't be more than happy with an off the rack gun. Hell, I would be happy just to get out there and shoot once in a while. No, the crazy money it can cost would not be worth it.

So it really is impossible to answer your question without being you. Hopefully you'll take stock of yourself and explore those questions.

As for the guns themselves, ring George at GAP and ask him how long to get a rifle built to your specs. I think you'll find that there are A LOT of people that think yes, yes the extra cost is worth it.

But keep in mind, most average-Joe shooters have never even heard of GAP and would think they would be nuts to spend the money. Well, if they were average-Joe shooters I would like they are right.

Spend what your skills, your budget, and your requirements suggest.

Good luck.

 

[lanwickum]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

The simple answer, if you pay and are happy with it..

I will say that if you pay $7k for your first rifle. you will not be happy with it if you are shooting it and only it.

You will most likely suck at shooting and expect it to do more that YOU can do.

Like a spoiled kid you will have no respect for what you have.

My first rifle was a k-mart 7mm Mag. Sucked, never shoot under 5" groups. I sold it. Second, rem 710 in 270. I would out shoot $5000 rifles at 200yards at the range. It still does good, havn't shoot it in years. It isn't worth enough to sell. It goes from there. I now have a custom 308 on a rem700 action and a custom 7WSM on FNH WSM action. Plus a few others. I love em both and they both and thousands of rnds down the tubes. Now if my income was back up before I had 3 kids and moved to raise a family I would own more customs. They are not worth me spending the $, but are worth the money to ME. Well, I hope to be spending the money again

Hopfully I will be building my own someday.

 

[Terry Cross]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Sharing my opinion on this just as I do on the phone several times a week to new shooters.

I pose a question to you asfyrmedic. . .
Even if you had $1 million in blow money, do you have enough experience and exposure to properly drive your own decision?

I am absolutely NOT trying to knock your lack of experience. Just pointing out that magazine articles, internet forums and camo dressed guys at the range can skew your decision in negative ways that you may realize later was a mistake.

Absolutely, positively garner every bit of information you can get from all the above sources but then you must have some personal filter to weed through all the B.S. and personal biases. The word "personal" is a big, big deal here. Only YOU can tell what will be right for your tastes, your body size, your shooting discipline and your style of handling that discipline. Unfortunately, the only way you can do that is to get experience and time in that arena.

Accordingly, even though I make my living building custom rifles, I would encourage you to buy a solid factory rifle with good glass and chambered in something that quality match ammo is available for. Take the rest of your budget and hide it under the matress. Sneak into the kitty as often as you need to buy ammo and send yourself to comps or training with that rifle.

Every time you use or handle that rifle, you will be developing the most important part of your shooting gear. . the part between your ears. Cool thing is, you will also be developing your opinions of what you need and what you don't need along the way. At some point, you will be far better able to wisely choose your purchase upgrades.

So my suggestion is that you may not be quite ready to best spend your own money. Go basic but solid for now. Spend your extra money on ammo, practice, training and comps. Your basic rifle can win most of the tactical comps in the country if you drive it correctly.

Successful engagements are 95% driven by YOU. Only about 5% of the difference is variance between OK equipment and high speed equipment. Only after you develop the potential available in that 95% package will the difference in equipment have any tangible bearing on your performance in the field.

I probably didn't word this exactly right to avoid making you feel like a beginner. Not trying to talk down to you or point fingers. Just tryin to take the info from your first post and give my 2 cents on the fastest and most efficient way for you to ultimately be a better rifle driver than most others you may run into.

Good luck with your efforts either way.

No wind,
Terry

 

[JRose]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I love reading Terry's posts when he's dropping his mind nuggets on us...


Well put Terry.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Well written, Terry!
The part about YOUR personal set-up is big. Anyone can tell you this works for them, but it may not work for you. For example, I do not like the AI stocks. I don't fit behind them well, and my right trigger hand is all out of wack. But I can shoot them when I have to. Meet some shooters in your area and get behind a few rifles with different stocks and look through as many scopes as you can. This will help make up your mind.

Chad

 

[FARGO]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's all perspective.

Can you play golf with a set of old garage sale clubs? Sure.

Can you play better with an expensive set of custom clubs? Possibly.

Could Tiger Woods kick my ass with a set of garage sale clubs even if I was rocking the most expensive clubs on the planet? You bet.

Someone hit the nail on the head earlier. For most this is a hobby. They enjoy spending money on it. It's not all about if the $7K stick shoots $4K better than the $3K stick. It's about gadgetry and pride of ownership.

For some it's about getting the job done no matter what. For those, the extra money equates to guaranteed precision in any weather in any location. That guarantee is priceless when lives are on the line.

If you are just breaking into the LR Shooting scene, then it's unlikely you will be able to realize the difference between a factory or custom precision rifle at anything more than 100 yards. If you have the cash and take the time to do your homework, then there is no reason not to "buy once, cry once" and go with the top of the line. If you have to choose between ammo or an expensive stock, then there isn't a choice. Ammo and trigger time will trump shiny shit.
</div></div>

+1 ... well said.

 

[azfyrmedic]

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I guess what it all comes to is.... although I am not wealthy, I am not afraid to save up for what I want.
I already have a nice scope so now I will have to decide what is the right level of gun for me.

I have been pretty good with my other rifles but they are not precision, they are hunting rifles.
This makes me think that I would be able to appreceate a nice rifle.

I am going to have to talk to a few people in person inorder to truely understand the benifits to some of the custom work I have read about.

Thanks to you all for helping, I am now sure that I don't want a stock rifle, it will have to be made for me and what I want.