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are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Find what FITS you bsst. Many people get all hung up on the actions, or the individual parts. Bet behind the rifles and you will see what feels better, then go from there.

The first time I held a Sako TRG, I fell in love with the stock. Just so happens they are the most accurate out of the box gun out there, so I was able to get the best of both worlds. Most custom guns are based on Remington actions. To me, Remington actions suck compared to the Sako, but thats just my opinion...

Take a look at the Tika and Sako rifles before you make your final decision. Either way, 99 percent of the guns out there will shoot better than the guy behind them
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Sorry about spacing, paragraphs and spelling. Damn phone won't let me scroll.

For help with your build do yourself a favor, find the closest custom gun shop and make an appointment to go check it out. Take a look at every stock you can, every action, every barrel, just everything. Take a notepad with and wrote down what just jumps out at you like say "McM A5 stock was excellent but ....... Was wrong". Spend the time to research and touch and see everythig you can before you start building a rifle. I know there are a few custom shops down in Arizona and that would give you a great opportunity. Drive up to the Mcmillian headquarters (think it's in AZ) and try every stock there. Then try to find someone who offers Manners stocks. If you can find an AI or AICS and Sako and try those as well. In my personal opinion the stock and the trigger are the most important ergonomic features out there. I have a McM A4, by all reports an amazing rifle stock right? Wrong, it's not for me. The LOP and adjustable cheekpiece are perfect but I hate the large grip, the ultra wide forend and how I have to position my thumb when I fore the rifle. On the other hand the hogue grip on my RRA AR-15 is perfect for me, I love it. Find what fits you perfectly and don't settle for something less if your going to go the custom route. No point in compromising about anything because no one will value that rifle as much as you do. I know this from building custom race quads, what I loved would never be equaled by someone else who didn't do the research, put in the time and in my case the blood and sweat. Good luck and the best to you and your custom build, I'm walking down the same path and it's an interesting one to say the least.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: montana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Like a spoiled kid you will have no respect for what you have.</div></div>I can vouch for spoiled kids everywhere: we appreciate everything that we get.
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Seriously, Terry gives excellent advice above. But there's no reason not to buy all the points you can afford. I'm not saying that there's any substitute for practice, of course there isn't, but I am saying to get your equipment sorted out first. So, if you can afford top-of-the-line stuff, why not get it? Because I don't yet know how to look at a less expensive factory rifle and tell whether, assuming good ammo, it is a system capable of MOA.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Terry's advice is exactly what I would have written.

I can't even think of anything to add to his advice.

With respect to the Tiger Woods analogy, I think Terry could win a tactical rifle match with a lever-action chambered in .22 LR sporting a Tasco scope.

Lance Armstrong's book about his battle with the cancer which nearly killed him, to come back and win the Tour de France, which he has won seven times so far, was <span style="font-style: italic">It's Not About the Bike</span>.

And it's not about the gun.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Terry's advice is exactly what I would have written.

I can't even think of anything to add to his advice.

With respect to the Tiger Woods analogy, I think Terry could win a tactical rifle match with a lever-action chambered in .22 LR sporting a Tasco scope.

Lance Armstrong's book about his battle with the cancer which nearly killed him, to come back and win the Tour de France, which he has won seven times so far, was <span style="font-style: italic">It's Not About the Bike</span>.

And it's not about the gun.</div></div>
Terry and Lindy pretty much nailed it.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...And it's not about the gun.</div></div>It's not about the gun, I agree. But malfunctioning equipment can hold you back. Especially when you are a beginner unable to identify whether a problem is you or equipment, and you haven't developed the skills necessary to work around the deficiency.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

The problem with going the high-dollar custom route right out of the gate is that you don't know enough to specify what really suits you and you can use.

That's why I agree completely with Terry's advice about getting a "solid factory rifle with good glass and chambered in something that quality match ammo is available for."

A person who shoots out the barrel on one, after getting competent training, is very likely to know what they want in a custom gun.

After putting a few thousand rounds through a Model 70 HBV, I bought an Accuracy International - which I'm still shooting. Still have the HBV, too.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not just about accuracy.
</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">+1</span>

Consistent reliability was my #1 goal, enhanced accuracy was #2.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I was always about groups. Really tight groups every time I went to the range. Accuracy was always king in that way to me.

When I started stretching out and trying to hit (groups) consistently, I soon realized I had one hell of an education in front of me. .1 groups @ 100 does NOT translate to .5" groups @ 500, certainly not 1" groups @ 1000! My education really began when I realized I didn't know a damn thing and that I needed to find out a lot if I was going to even put groups on the paper at long range. The best example of that was my .222 Rem in a Win 70 HB. I shot a 5 shot group of .013" @ 100 yds in -8F weather in Helena one day. Couldn't seem to get many groups sub MOA @ 300. Because one little whiff of wind and those 50/52's went sideways a long ways. That's when I discovered my .257 would put 117/120's routinely into 7" groups @ 500. Provided I let the barrel cool. A lot of time, it was just getting on paper consistently. So the first thing I learned was find better bullets to buck the wind. With good bullets I found you still had to deal with the wind. Which I didn't always do so well. Until I learned that bullet and rifle are only part of the equation. An accurate rifle will help get you into the ballpark. But you have to get serious and learn all the factors if you're gonna stay there and play.

I'll reinforce the thinking that a good "off the shelf" rifle with good glass will get you into the ballpark where you can take it as far as you want. I've gotten custom rifles built and they shoot well....when I shoot well. Consistency is the key. Keep shooting well and calling the shot right every time. Know why you missed it if you did.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matthais31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All good stuff posted here. I was in the same boat not too long ago, and opted for a factory rifle. Soon after I began hand loading and my groups shrank drastically.

As nice as it would be to know that your equipment isnt holding you back, there is a lot to be said for learning on a factory rifle. Had I bought myself a full custom straight off the bat with no shooting experience, I would likely have bought a rifle that I wouldn't have been happy with a year or two down the line. I say this because as you shoot and practise on your first rifle, you will develop an idea of what you want in a custom rifle. Do you want a light rifle or a heavy rifle? What scope magnification do you prefer using? What calibre would work best for you? All of these questions become easier to answer once you have some practical experience.

So long story short - yes customs are worth it, but I personally wouldn't take the plunge on one for a first rifle. </div></div>

There something to be said for this post.

It really boils down to what you are gonna do with the thing. If you are gonna go shoot beer cans with your buddies, I guess it really does not matter. But if you truly aspire to improve your LR marksmanship, IMO Matthais31, and Terry said it perfectly.

I say this because I shoot local LR Tac comps ( and by no means am I anywhere near Terry's caliber.... ), I started with a can -do attitude, and a 700 PS w/ a NF NXS, kept my mouth shut, kept my eyes and ears open, and shot the comps for a year, and I learned A HELL OF A LOT!!!

By that time I had improved significantly, and knew I was helplessly hooked... I was also lucky enough to have a cousin getting married in Lees Summit MO, which is a short drive from George Gardners shop. Drawing from the experiences over the last two years of shooting I was able to spec out a rifle with George ( he let me fondle all kinds of COOL shit!!!
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)

Long story short, I've now shot that GAP rifle in Tac comps for a year now, and it is soo dialed I DON"T WANT TO CHANGE A THING!!! It is a great feeling when you have the confidence in knowing the only variable in the equation is YOURSELF....

Now all I gotta do is shoot this rifle for a million years, and MAYBE I can catch up to George and Terry......................Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeit! LOL!!!
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Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Most gunsmiths around here charge about $300 for threading and chambering a barrel. So for about $600 you can have a nice rifle. But a used remington. Most of the accuracy comes from a good barrel.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

If you learn to shoot properly a high dollar gun will only improve your shooting slightly - you can still do all that anyone with a big priced gun can do...

You could b uild up an M1903 springfield to shoot 1k just fine,


There is a difference however in a LOW priced weapon - ma ybe the stock needs a bed job or it will shoot weird after it warms up etc....


You still gotta learn to shoot properly.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I'd like to maybe put another perspective on this. I can only speak for myself, but I like to shoot for FUN. This makes it a recreational hobby. I know that there are profesional shooters, gunsmiths, and serious competitors on here but, I would bet that there are more than one shooter, other than myself on this site that are truly recreation shooters. One of the fun things about ANY hobby is exploring the possibilities and your own capabilities. I am building my first precision rifle, and as such, I am trying to find out what MAY work best for me and what fits in my budget. I truly hope that it is not the last precision rifle that I put together. The addage "buy once, cry once" is very sage. But if the bug for this hobby, obsession, sickness sticks, I say "Buy once, cry once, laugh A Lot, and buy again". If you go top shelf right off the bat, what do you have to look forward to or learn from? I am piecing together a 700 with an old Leup scope. While I am doing this, I use the motivation of possibly getting a bespoke rifle from a premier (or unknown) builder just so I have a higher bar for next time. I also believe that you can never go wrong with buying the best you can afford; tempered by the reallity of what you really need or can effectively use. Though there are many stalwarts in the this industry, be assured that no matter what you buy today; cartidge, action, barrel, glass or smith, there will be always be improvements thereof next time.
Re-reading my own post, I should start with a Red Ryder and move up to one with a compass in the stock.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

It may start out as fun, but it may depend on what kind of person you are and how much time and money you've got. I know many trap shooters who I don't think would characterize what they do as "fun". They are in it to win it and work at it. Hard.

Even with no money or trophies on the line I've seen and heard more anger, frustration, and profanity playing golf than just about anywhere else in my life. I don't think I've often seen too many people having "fun" playing golf.

There's another angle that some people are compelled to pursue -- competition and the prospect of victory.

When you're too old to run up and down hills every day and the military will no longer have you, shooting sports are a sporting activity open to those of us who time has caught up with.

Like golf, come to think of it, once one masters the mechanics, shooting competitively boils down to a mental game.

I suggest you look up a guy named Lanny Bassham.

Looking at my post above and some of the more recent ones, I guess I read your first post is that you were new to the board, not new to shooting, so I simply noted that skill as a shooter was a necessary part of the equation.

Like others probably noted, the money and effort to acquire skill will likely eclipse the money and effort to get great equipment. I speak about trap because that is the shooting I'm most familiar with, but I know people who spend tens of thousands of dollars a year on targets and ammunition.

Unlike some others, however, if you've got the money to spare I would buy quality, used, up front. You may get all your money back when you're ready to sell and get what you really want later. Moreover, you won't be fighting your gun if it is a poor shooter. And, perhaps more importantly, you won't have be hamstrung in the mental game if you're left doubting your equipment.

If you're just after fun, however, I would keep your money in your pocket.

Moreover, once you have true skill and confidence in that skill, you'll be able to save money then as well because you'll be able to beat lesser men using less expensive equipment as you'll have none of the hang-ups, insecurities, and doubts, that others may have.

For those who already have great skill, but choke under pressure of competition from time to time I want to once again mention Lanny Bassham.

Good luck.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Went back to the beginning of this thread, reread the original post, and the responses with respect to that post. Good info here.

Starting with, it ain't about the gun. The advice to start out with a factory offering is another good suggestion.

For the most part, getting up and running works better when you take the most direct and well travelled route. Marksmanship requires that you do the deed. Reading and talking about it simply puts off the embarkation. The path requires a guide, find a good shooter who has a interest in bringing others along the road of success.

Sometimes I come across like a broken record about this, but the first rifle should be a reliable (not necessarily pricey) .22LR. It lends itself to economical and effective practice. Somewhere along the path, it's gonna make sense to develop iron sights skills, and it can help if it's at the beginning. If you're putting $500 into that first .22LR, scope and mounts included, you're starting to exceed the point of diminishing returns. The biggest expenditure should be for ammo.

When you can put ten shots at 50ft into a hole you can cover with a quarter, you're met the requirement for the Boy Scout Rifle Shooting Merit badge. When you can do the same thing at 50yd, you've become a genuine marksman.

That's when you take that interest in a centerfire rifle. A decent factory Varmint rifle is a good starter. I like the Savage Model 12 series.

.223 for a start, and waste as little time as possible getting into handloading. I say Savage because when it comes time for another barrel, all you need to pay for is the barrel and a barrel nut wrench. You can get a completely chambered and threaded barrel from Lothar-Walther for $308, install it yourself, and that $300 the Remmie owners have to fork over to a gunsmith, good or otherwise, for chambering, threading, and installation can stay in your pocket and maybe go for ammo, instead. You can get a good but frugal start into handloading for not much more.

That $7,000 gun? I still haven't reached the stage where my skills demand such excellence. Some do, some don't, and some don't but think they do...

Are they worth the money? Every penny, but buy it because it's what you need, and not because it's what others may covet.

Take the trip in easy stages, and you'll know when the right time has arrived.

Greg
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I think it's just like any tool, you can buy cheap or you can get the best. Do the cheap tools get the job done? Yes, most of the time. But is the job done a little easier and faster with the best always. Get what you can afford at the time and make it work.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

looking at the rifles that some have been posting here, yes they are worth every penny. look at the tac ops. the shorty. the m40a1 copy. all the stuff that one guy is taking to the shot show. all the ones that people post here are beautiful examples of the highest level of craftsmanship in their field. do i like every one of them? no, some i dont care for the stock or paint, but i still respect the work that went into them. would i pay that much for one? sure if i had the money, but i dont at the moment. the biggest question relating to the value of the rifle seems to be are you or am i a good enough shooter to make use of this equipment? not hardly in my case. so for me, i spent under $1500 in rifle, glass, rings and bipod. and then i bought reloading equipment and brass. even there i bought once fired lake city match, not lapua or norma. until i am topshelf, my equipment doesnt need to be either. what i have will do as a start. reading others posts it seems like the advice is sound and of a concensus, buy a decent off the shelf rifle (you can have a whole 'nother debate about what brands to buy, lol), good glass and some good ammo if your not a reloader and hit the range. after you master that rifle you will better know what you need in a custom. plus if you get bored with it, you only have a $1500 rifle/scope in the closet, not a $5000 w/a $2000 scope. look down...no above the girl. i may not have shot my 308 yet, but i shoot my 10/22 all the time as well as air rifle and that time on the trigger will benefit and stay with me when i do start shooting matches with the bolt. its just the extended ranges i am new to. there are always good rifles in every price range in the for sale forum. start there and have fun.

wow, she really is hypnotic isnt she?
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azfyrmedic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recognize that the higher cost rifles and actions have things like blue printing and so on, but is there really a big enough difference in a remington 700 action for a few hundred and a custom action for a couple of thousand to justify the cost?
To put it simple is it worth it to spend 7000. on a gun when I can get one for so much less? </div></div>

Yes an no, because it depends on what target your after.
I wore out a Rem 700 VS an a PS barrel before I had GAP work over the VS in .308 win.
They built it just as I ask, and it would shoot to a level I'd never seen before. That stick did everything I ask of it to include allowing me to reach 300yds farther than the old VS would, based on round speed, error range, an group size. A friend just had to have it, so I looked around and found a barreled action to replace it. Long story short, that barreled action was named Johnny Cash as it has used, an abused parts I had laying around, traded for or just made. It will shoot to the same level as the .308 GAP would plus run in a field enviroment w/o issue. NOT taking away anything from GAP at all,... but sometimes you can acheve the same level with alot less money,... if like want was posted,... by Mr. Cross is realized/understood. I have less than $750.00 in the weapon alone, not counting the 17X SN-3 and fed via 10rd HS/P mags. My 300wm is alittle different, as GAP did it as well, but it was no where close to 2K let alone 7K. With the new barrel I just had installed it gives Johnny a run for it's money now.


Money is not the standard to go by,... what do you want it to do? If your after a real deal field stick, Fieldcraft can add 500yds to a stock Rem 700 VS or PSS in .308win,... an 700+ yds in 300wm. Shooting Iron, an good ammo costs X dollars a pound vs group size, you can half that total, by being up on your game.

I have learned much here on the Hide, but the biggest/best thing I have learned you can't buy 1/4 moa groups. You and your stick have to learn to work togeather an earn them. What works for X may not for Y. I knew that from days with Uncle, but somehow forget it along the way.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I own a couple of high end custom rifles. <span style="font-weight: bold">To me </span> they're worth every penny. They're just built better and tend to be a bit more accurate and consistent. I own several factory built rifles too that shoot darn well. Here's some advice since you're new. Buy a factory Remington and just shoot the piss out of it. When you're ready and have the extra funds get someone to spin a good match grade barrel on....true and bed the action into a decent stock and you'll be able to shoot with any custom rifle that typically cost 2 or 3 x as much. The only problem with that is you still have a Remington 700....which isn't all that bad when you think about it.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

If you are just getting into this game (to me its game a very serious intense game not life or death) and you have the money to spend I would get a lower cost rifle quality glass and a shit ton of ammo and learn how to use it. when you get to the point where you can tell the difference between the two rifles then get one.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Armorman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I own a couple of high end custom rifles. <span style="font-weight: bold">To me </span> they're worth every penny. They're just built better and tend to be a bit more accurate and consistent. I own several factory built rifles too that shoot darn well. Here's some advice since you're new. Buy a factory Remington and just shoot the piss out of it. When you're ready and have the extra funds get someone to spin a good match grade barrel on....true and bed the action into a decent stock and you'll be able to shoot with any custom rifle that typically cost 2 or 3 x as much. The only problem with that is you still have a Remington 700....which isn't all that bad when you think about it. </div></div>

+1. I started out with a 10/22. Then I went to a skinny barrel 700 SPS .308. Shot that for a while and then had GAP put on a factory LTR barrel and HS stock. Shot that for a long time. Now have a couple GAP custom builds. The customs do shoot better than the 700s I have, but starting out with the other guns was the way to go for me.

-dan
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

Everything I own is factory barreled and .5 moa grps are common on my range. That said, sure wish I could afford to have George build me a rifle. A quater moa improvement sure cost a lot of coin.

okie
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I believe that there's no right or wrong anwser; its just your personal choice.

I got to the point where I just had too many firearms that never made it to the range anymore. Few of them were worthy of being considered part of a nice "collection", so recently I started consolidating some to finance a couple GAP builds.

I've also put some thought to the fact that when the day comes that I pass them down to my son he will have something to really be proud of, something that was made specifically for his dad.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

they sure shoot good. I guess that is why we spend big bucks on them.

to shoot tiny bug holes.


3B's -bullet, barrel and bedding.
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everything I own is factory barreled and .5 moa grps are common on my range. That said, sure wish I could afford to have George build me a rifle. A quater moa improvement sure cost a lot of coin.

okie </div></div>

5 shot groups consistently under .5"? I doubt it. My GAP shot a .07" 3 shot group the other day. That doesn't make it a .07" rifle though.

-dan
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

I started out with plain jane hunting rifles with cheap scopes and factory ammo.......My experience and shooting level was "so-so" at best. As my passion grew for weapons and their performance I moved onto factory police sniper models ( Rem 700 PSS) with tacticle luepolds... I got better the more time I spent shooting. I moved on to custom built rifles with top of the line optics and my groups got better than I have ever shot. Was it time spent shooting and careful reloading or was it high quality equipment. I think a little of both. Match the rig to your shooting experience and then shoot and practice and when you can upgrade to a better rig, do it. It will not hamper you in the accuracy and reliablity department. Generally speaking it should improve your shooting as you gain more experience. Some rifles will shoot better than other rifles and sometimes price doesn't always follow that rule but most higher quality rifles will outshoot or atleast be more consistant and predictable than a cheaper factory rifle. I have had some fantastic 308 factory bolt guns as well as own a fantastic 300WM Rem PSS that does very nicely and didn't cost me an arm and a leg...But I still prefer my custom....... (.182 4 shot group at 100 yards) For a 40 year old knucklehead like me to see a .182 by his own hands and handloading his own stuff is okay by me. I'm not bragging because I know there are way better than me.. But I'm happy and I'm getting better as I'm getting older...Kinda like aged wine............SmokeRolls
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deersniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everything I own is factory barreled and .5 moa grps are common on my range. That said, sure wish I could afford to have George build me a rifle. A quater moa improvement sure cost a lot of coin.

okie </div></div>

5 shot groups consistently under .5"? I doubt it. My GAP shot a .07" 3 shot group the other day. That doesn't make it a .07" rifle though.

-dan </div></div>

Well, I doubt you know that any better than I do. Dont give a shit wether you doubt it or not. I did't say "consistantly", I said they are common on my range and they are, sub moa is just easy. I'll admit, you're lucky to get that out of a factory rifle but I have two that will do it with my hand loads, a VSSF in .223 and a LTR in .308. I think if you look at my post in the past, you'll see I'm not much of a bull shitter.

okie
 
Re: are high dollar rifles worth the money?

The way I see it I could go out tomorrow, buy a chisel, a hammer and a block of marble.

But could I turn out a statue like Michaelangelo?

No way.

In the end a rifle is a tool just the same as a hammer and chisel.

What you need to get the best out of the tool is talent, practice, training, more practice, skill, and stil more practice.

Could I go out tomorrow and buy a Ferrari? Sure....if I had the money (I don't by the way
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)

Could I drive it like Michael Schumacher?

You guessed it...NO WAY.

But having had 30 years driving experience I could certainly tell a few fundamental differences between that and an entry level Ford (or similar).

I suspect many of us here who have a passion for the sport choose to spend our spare cash on getting ever better gear and kit (I know I do).

Am I capable of getting every last drop of performance out of my AW or new GAP....no, I'm probably not and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

But personaly I hate wrestling with anything where the mechanics or processes interfere with or detract from the activity or end result.

I'd always prefer (money allowing) to have kit that performs beyond the envelope of my skill/experience....that way I know the only problem in the chain is ME....

Then we are back to practice, more practice and still more practice.

As some others have said, like cars, rifles are a game of diminishing returns...the higher up the food chain you get, the more expensive the improvements seem to come for fairly minor performance gains.

But I also get a lot of pleasure from owning these rifles...is that a bad thing? I don't think so as long as I've put food on the table, clothes on the kids backs, a roof over their heads and paid the bills.

It's not a cheap sport but it is no way as expensive as cars or women can be.....and I speak from bitter experience
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