• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Rifle Scopes Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

thefiremeister

thefiremeister

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 7, 2009
255
11
67
Nevada
I'm looking at a Nightforce 3.5-15x50 with a MLR reticle. The question I have is should I get the milrad knobs and if so why?
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

Welcome to the hide, fill out your profile and use the search function
smile.gif


http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=378812#Post378812

http://www.snipershide.com/node/1
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

chevy or ford?
blond or brunette?
nike or reebok?

More important is that the reticle match the knobs. Get whichever you prefer.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And yes, get the milrad knobs, they should match your reticle.</div></div>

Damn that jasonk is fast!
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

Get MilRad knobs because from now until you die you can be almost certain that every MRad based scope you ever buy will be setup the same. With "MOA" knobs you will have to go verify every time what exactly the manufacturer means by MOA and (if it has a "matched" reticle) whether the team that decided the definition of MOA for the turrets agreed with the team that decided the definition for the reticle.

Also they're easier to subtend.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">chevy or ford?
blond or brunette?
nike or reebok?

More important is that the reticle match the knobs. Get whichever you prefer.
</div></div>

Chevy
Brunette
Nike
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">chevy or ford?
blond or brunette?
nike or reebok?
</div></div>

Chevy
Brunette
Nike</div></div>

I'm more of a Pontiac, Red, Converse type of person. That may make be antisocial, but I've got better stuff.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

In a SFP scope it's not as important, since you can force the reticle to match the knobs. It would be a little more convenient to get the mrad adjustment, but I wouldn't pay the extra money for it.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JCH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">chevy or ford?
blond or brunette?
nike or reebok?
</div></div>

Chevy
Brunette
Nike</div></div>

I'm more of a Pontiac, Red, Converse type of person. That may make be antisocial, but I've got better stuff.

</div></div>

LOL!!!
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...fill out your profile...</div></div>

Board rules require an email address, city, and state, for people who are selling something.

Notice the period at the end of the preceeding sentence?

Perhaps you should quit wasting bandwidth badgering people to do something they are not required to do.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

http://www.snipershide.com/node/1</div></div>

Thanks for the link. My search didn't turn up much but thats some of the info I was looking for.

Looks like milrad knobs are the way to go.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...fill out your profile...</div></div>

Board rules require an email address, city, and state, for people who are selling something.

Notice the period at the end of the preceeding sentence?

Perhaps you should quit wasting bandwidth badgering people to do something they are not required to do.
</div></div>

yes but if they want real answers and not some smart ass response it is better to fill out one's profile.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes but if they want real answers and not some smart ass response it is better to fill out one's profile.</div></div>

I was going to ignore you but now I'm curious . What is it you want to know?

I thought the question about mil knobs was valid.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

Didn't know you needed a Clearance Rating for a simple question.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pyrolater</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes but if they want real answers and not some smart ass response it is better to fill out one's profile.</div></div>

I was going to ignore you but now I'm curious . What is it you want to know?

I thought the question about mil knobs was valid. </div></div>

your question is valid (although asked quite frequently) , and I answered your question stating that either is fine, as long as you don't get a mildot scope and then buy MOA turrets.

What i was refering to on filling out your profile is there are lots of internet wannabees that log on here and ask stupid questions or even questions that only LE/Mil snipers need to know. So if you wanna be around a while and get truthful answers and lots of helpful responses....fill out your profile so people know who you are other than someone who doesn't want to use the SEARCH function.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...fill out your profile...</div></div>

Board rules require an email address, city, and state, for people who are selling something.

Notice the period at the end of the preceeding sentence?

Perhaps you should quit wasting bandwidth badgering people to do something they are not required to do.
</div></div>

If he was local I was going to offer to meet him at the range and let him shoot both examples and see for himself. Many of these questions are easier answered in person with real examples than over the internet.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

As simple as this:
Competition shooting FT -FT/R : MOA
as all targets are MOA based and correcting in MILS is not accurate enough.
TACTICAL: MILS and never look back.
Eduardo
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If he was local I was going to offer to meet him at the range and let him shoot both examples and see for himself. Many of these questions are easier answered in person with real examples than over the internet.</div></div>

Thanks for the offer but I'm out in the middle of no place Nevada.

<span style="font-style: italic">As for JCH; I did do a search but apparently your search is stronger than mine. </span>

Any way, I was running some calculations using the mildot master and some regular old math and I don't see a big difference in the way you go about ranging.

Spinning the dials in either mils or moa seems easy enough and if you need a quick hold over the mildot master the has the mils next to MOAs so why would the mils be better for tactical?

 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

"Spinning the dials in either mils or moa seems easy enough and if you need a quick hold over the mildot master the has the mils next to MOAs so why would the mils be better for tactical?"

When you watch impact in a Mil-dot scope and see that it is 1/2 mil high and 1/2 mil left you can turn your elevation knob down 1/2 mil and windage knob 1/2 mil right.

But saying that 99% of the scopes you will come across are MOA (and if you shoot a team match, preferably you and your buddy will have the same scope set-up)
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

Let's assume you buy a mil/mil scope. You're out shooting and spy a rock that looks like it needs to catch a bullet (or 2 or 10). You guess that it's 750 yards (or meters or feet or inches) away. You dial your dope and fire. Guess what? You missed but luckily you saw where you hit. So you put your crosshairs back on the rock and measure with your reticle where you actually hit. You measure that you hit 1.4 mils low and a half mil left. You can now dial 1.4 mils up and .5 right (notice I didn't mention clicks) and be on target. You would also have the option of just holding off with the reticle. Options are always good!


Now reread the above story and replace 750 with any number under the sun and the story is true.

I think in inches, feet, yards but I have a scope that's mil/mil. The distance your shooting doesn't matter. Just measure it then adjust.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As simple as this:
Competition shooting FT -FT/R : MOA
as all targets are MOA based and correcting in MILS is not accurate enough.
TACTICAL: MILS and never look back.
Eduardo</div></div>

I reread the "using mil dots article" and found another article I had printed out a long time ago and it says there are 21,600 moa in a circle verses 6283.2 mils so i guess MOAs are a finer adjustment.

I had forgot about that.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

A 1/4 moa click is "about" .25 inches at 100 yards.

A .1 mil click is .36 inches at 100 yards.

I think the Zeiss 6-24x56 scope has .05 mil clicks.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

Soooo, the way I'm thinking, if you are in a tactical situation and minute of person is acceptable then mils would be better because it would be faster to dial in?

If you have a little more time and want to be a little more accurate then MOAs would be the way to go?

The conversion from mildots or the MRL reticle to moa knobs is no big deal then.

I'm a little anal about being accurate so now I'm back to MOA knobs and maybe the NP-R1 reticle but seeing how most scopes are mils and moa knobs I might just have to go that way. I don't want to confuse myself by have to many different set ups.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pyrolater</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As simple as this:
Competition shooting FT -FT/R : MOA
as all targets are MOA based and correcting in MILS is not accurate enough.
TACTICAL: MILS and never look back.
Eduardo</div></div>

I reread the "using mil dots article" and found another article I had printed out a long time ago and it says there are 21,600 moa in a circle verses 6283.2 mils so i guess MOAs are a finer adjustment.

I had forgot about that.

</div></div>

MOA is a finer adjustment when comparing unit to unit. They are not necessarily finer when compairing MOA to 1/10th of Mil. Which is typically what you can subtend (in short: measure using reticle) with a Mil reticle in a scope.

What part of "Nowhere Nevada" are you in? what you may not realize is that you are in the perfect place to shoot as far as you want. 355 out of 365 days a year. I'm from Nevada I know.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

Large benefit of reticle matching knobs is correction of missed shots.

Say you are shooting at 743 yards, you miss low, with the reticle you see that you are exactly .5 mils low. You adjust the up elevation 5 clicks and you are done.

Now, mismatched knobs to reticle, you miss .5 mils low....how many clicks up is it? No cheat sheets or calculators....

A mil is a mil is a mil no matter the distance.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What part of "Nowhere Nevada" are you in? what you may not realize is that you are in the perfect place to shoot as far as you want. 355 out of 365 days a year. I'm from Nevada I know.</div></div>

Elko. We don't have shooting weather everyday. We do have some out off the way places though.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

Now I'm confused again. The mil knobs are in 10ths of a mil?
1 mil is 3.6" so a tenth would be .36"
1 moa is 1.047" and a 1/4 of that is .26175"

MOAs are finer


Missed shots with hold over/under corrections I'm not to worried about. Like josonk says a mil is a mil just re aim

The conversions with out a cheat sheet may be a problem but nothings prefect and I still think in English units
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

Pyro you're way overthinking things. Seriously I've been there. Pick mil/mil or moa/moa and go shoot.
smile.gif
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pyrolater</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Elko. We don't have shooting weather everyday. We do have some out off the way places though.
</div></div>

Every day is a beautiful day in Elko! I've been coming in and out of there for 25 years! Even the winter of 1984 was beautiful, you just couldn't move unless you had a CAT 984 in front of you moving snow. They spent the winter dumping snow over the bridge into the Humbolt to get rid of the stuff. The 50 below zero is nice if you have three pair of long johns.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Luvman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pyro you're way overthinking things. Seriously I've been there. Pick mil/mil or moa/moa and go shoot.
smile.gif
</div></div>


I've been over thinking things for a week. Just about done though.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pyrolater</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now I'm confused again. The mil knobs are in 10ths of a mil?
1 mil is 3.6" so a tenth would be .36"
1 moa is 1.047" and a 1/4 of that is .26175"

MOAs are finer


Missed shots with hold over/under corrections I'm not to worried about. Like josonk says a mil is a mil just re aim

The conversions with out a cheat sheet may be a problem but nothings prefect and I still think in English units

</div></div>

If you have a reticle that gives you values then you can subtend with MOA. But for the most part an MOA reticle doesn't give you the tools like a Mil reticle to split it down. You have line values but it still takes a good guess to interpolate 1/4's and 1/2's of MOA.

My big question is you talk about Mil adjustments. I may not be following the topic right but you have to have mil adjustments in the scope (not just knob), to get it correct. Many on here prefer mil/mil. I prefer MOA/MOA But, either way, get them to match.

I was going to say everything North of Deeth is wide open. I took a nice buck out of there the year my oldest was born, 1988.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

pyro, what's your goal?

I run a 1/10th Mil EREK on my USO. 1/10th Mil vs. 1/4 MOA is not a consideration in tactical long range shooting. Environmental changes (wind gusts, etc) will account for a greater error than the difference in clicks.

If you are using it for "tactical" style or any other unknown distance type shooting, a Mil/Mil setup is the way to go. I didn't realize how much of an improvement it was until I got one and got used to it. Now when I am on the line shooting with others and I have to go back to MOA to spot for them I realize how nice it is to not have to do the math. Measure and dial. Now granted a MOA/MOA setup would offer similar advantages, but they are less common and I already have the brain housing group programmed for Mil based reticles.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

Is been a while since I've really looked at mils and I've never tried to compare a mil,mil scope to a mil,moa or a moa, moa scope before so this little discussion has been pretty informative for me. Got to learn some new stuff and remembered some other stuff.

Your right, the MOA NP-R1 reticle on the nightforce only splits things up to 1 moa.

The knob adjustments is one of the things that got this thread started. Night force will put in mil knobs with the proper adjustments but it in for a couple of hundred more so I was wondering if its worth it.

I can see the benefit in have either a mil,mil or a moa, moa.


Pretty much everything north of Las Vegas and east of Reno is still wide open. I like it that way.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Say you are shooting at 743 yards, you miss low, with the reticle you see that you are exactly .5 mils low. You adjust the up elevation 5 clicks and you are done.

Now, mismatched knobs to reticle, you miss .5 mils low....how many clicks up is it? No cheat sheets or calculators....

A mil is a mil is a mil no matter the distance. </div></div>


I've seen a lot of people saying this, and it technically isn't true. It largely depends on the exact scenario you're shooting in. If we take your example and expand the details slightly it can be demonstrated why this isn't true.

Say you're shooting a 308 (168 SMK at 2700) at the center of a 2 foot target sitting on level ground at 743 yards. For the sake of this example the gun is 1 foot off of the ground. If a miss was observed at .5 mrad low, the bullet would have actually impacted at 667 yards. It would require about 1.1 mrad of elevation to correct to the center of the target, not the .5 observed.

Obviously 'a mil is a mil' works fine on paper targets if the miss is on the paper or if there is a berm directly behind your target, but it's not quite as applicable to the real world as many believe.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">pyro, what's your goal?

I run a 1/10th Mil EREK on my USO. 1/10th Mil vs. 1/4 MOA is not a consideration in tactical long range shooting. Environmental changes (wind gusts, etc) will account for a greater error than the difference in clicks.

If you are using it for "tactical" style or any other unknown distance type shooting, a Mil/Mil setup is the way to go. I didn't realize how much of an improvement it was until I got one and got used to it. Now when I am on the line shooting with others and I have to go back to MOA to spot for them I realize how nice it is to not have to do the math. Measure and dial. Now granted a MOA/MOA setup would offer similar advantages, but they are less common and I already have the brain housing group programmed for Mil based reticles. </div></div>


My "goal" is to build a rifle off of a savage 10fp that I can take hunting and if I can, worm my way into some shoots with the local LEO snipers. I'd like to be able to be competitive with them and not get smoked on the range. I figure I might be hunting with it in the fall and the rest of the year I'll have a tactical style stock on it and go out and play.

Have to add to this cause after reading it, it did sound like wishful thinking. I know some of them and will be shooting with one or two the local snipers in December.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kombar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Say you're shooting a 308 (168 SMK at 2700) at the center of a 2 foot target sitting on level ground at 743 yards. For the sake of this example the gun is 1 foot off of the ground. If a miss was observed at .5 mrad low, the bullet would have actually impacted at 667 yards. It would require about 1.1 mrad of elevation to correct to the center of the target, not the .5 observed.

Obviously 'a mil is a mil' works fine on paper targets if the miss is on the paper or if there is a berm directly behind your target, but it's not quite as applicable to the real world as many believe.</div></div>

it's done in the real world every day by people out there doing it... in fact we had an AAR recently that described doing this in just about every engagement.

Anyone can do a "what if" and describe a way it won't work, but we see that it does time and time again in a variety of situation, far beyond what you describe as not working.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kombar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Say you are shooting at 743 yards, you miss low, with the reticle you see that you are exactly .5 mils low. You adjust the up elevation 5 clicks and you are done.

Now, mismatched knobs to reticle, you miss .5 mils low....how many clicks up is it? No cheat sheets or calculators....

A mil is a mil is a mil no matter the distance. </div></div>


I've seen a lot of people saying this, and it technically isn't true. It largely depends on the exact scenario you're shooting in. If we take your example and expand the details slightly it can be demonstrated why this isn't true.

Say you're shooting a 308 (168 SMK at 2700) at the center of a 2 foot target sitting on level ground at 743 yards. For the sake of this example the gun is 1 foot off of the ground. If a miss was observed at .5 mrad low, the bullet would have actually impacted at 667 yards. It would require about 1.1 mrad of elevation to correct to the center of the target, not the .5 observed.

Obviously 'a mil is a mil' works fine on paper targets if the miss is on the paper or if there is a berm directly behind your target, but it's not quite as applicable to the real world as many believe. </div></div>

Sorry kombar, but if you see the hit impact .5 mil low it has nothing to do with where it hits the ground distance from the muzzle-wise. If you hold .5mil higher after seeing it hit .5 mil low in your scope you will hit the target-try it sometime from behind a rifle rather than a keyboard.


Jasonk-too easy, 7 clicks on my old mismatched MK4. While having to convert a mil to moa isn't optimal its still relatively easy on the fly (but easy to mess up under stress I'llk agree).
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry kombar, but if you see the hit impact .5 mil low it has nothing to do with where it hits the ground distance from the muzzle-wise. If you hold .5mil higher after seeing it hit .5 mil low in your scope you will hit the target. </div></div>

Doesn't work like that, we're not shooting lasers. You can absolutely have situations where the impact observed on the reticle will not equal the dope required.

If you are using this technique for wind holds, it wouldn't matter as much, but the elevation can vary a lot due to the trajectory of the bullet.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kombar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen a lot of people saying this, and it technically isn't true. It largely depends on the exact scenario you're shooting in. If we take your example and expand the details slightly it can be demonstrated why this isn't true.</div></div>

Brother, this is where you need to get out and shoot. I have never had a problem determining that my round impacted 80 yards short.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

Damnit LL, I'm outta room on my sig line, or that'd go on there as well (I think the quote I do have covers it well though)
wink.gif
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">see what happens when you have no practical experience doing something... you end up playing with calculators and looking stupid on the internet. </div></div>

Just incase someone missed it.
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hk9176251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ford
blond
dr martens boots</div></div>

Day late, dollar short.
Innovate damnit!
 
Re: Are milrad knobs really better than moa knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kombar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen a lot of people saying this, and it technically isn't true. It largely depends on the exact scenario you're shooting in. If we take your example and expand the details slightly it can be demonstrated why this isn't true.</div></div>

Brother, this is where you need to get out and shoot. I have never had a problem determining that my round impacted 80 yards short.</div></div>

So, question on this. I have two targets in my lane of fire. One is 600 out the other is 800 out. But as the shooter I don't know that. I have the rifle dialed in to hit dead center (l-r) center of chest (v) on the 600. Without adjusting the scope, I move to the 800 add reasonable hold and fire. Where ever that round hits in my scope is what I put on mr. 800? In this scenario I was only able to range the 600. The 800 was a pop-up and we gave 10 seconds between shots. See how few shots it took you to knock it down.

I've not been so successful as you at doing that. There's usually a little more hold involved for me and I end up firing a third time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

6
Rifle Scopes Burris XTRiii 5.5-30 elevation knob hard to turn?
Replies
7
Views
388
Gohring65
Gohring65
D
Leupold TMR vs PR1 in Milrad. Which one would you choose and why ?
Replies
6
Views
1K
smoothy8500
smoothy8500
R
MOA and Milrad Turret Calculations
Replies
45
Views
2K
smoothy8500
smoothy8500
Luke
Nearly free Tikka T1x oversized bolt knobs
Replies
10
Views
910
HighPowerrules!
H
loveha
Rifle Scopes Target/Hunting Scope Help
Replies
5
Views
488
XTREM HTR16
XTREM HTR16
Top Bottom
Back