Rifle Scopes As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

JelloStorm

JelloStorm

Gunny Sergeant
Minuteman
Feb 23, 2010
1,409
4
43
Northeast Pennsylvania
#1
Hey all,

I'm looking to get the Vortex Viper 2.5-10 and was wondering if I should get the moa or mil reticle. I'm not new to shooting, just new to using any form of milling scope.

I think in inches and when I've been reading stuff online about range estimation I think of targets in inches. Because I'm new, should I try to adopt the mil system vs. moa, or since the moa system is what I already know, just keep using that?

Not sure that one is better than the other, but wanna use the simplest system before I'm too set in my ways.
 
#2
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

Mil.
It won't prevent you from thinking in inches.
And if you shoot as a member of a team that's what most other people have.
 
#5
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

The only thing I think about in inches when using mils is the target size when ranging. Other than that I see my corrections in the reticle and then hold or dial them on the mil knobs. All my charts for elevation, wind and mover holds is in mils.
 
#6
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

I don't think you can get mil knobs on the viper can you? Just moa right? In that case, you'd want a moa reticle as well. Not that moa turrets and mil reticle scopes haven't been fielded with great success, because they have. A matching turret/reticle is just much easier to work with. One less thing to think about.

Even if you go moa/moa instead of mil/mil... you'll also want to look into FFP reticles. Even less to think about.
smile.gif
 
#7
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

I'm not sure if the knobs are matching or not, but I will post the question in the thread SWFA started about the Viper PST scopes.

I'm primarily shooting at human form targets but wouldn't mind using my 700P for some groundhogs too. My father has a Leupold 6-20 or 24 power scope on his 700P and he's being trying to talk me into a higher magnification scope. Maybe the Viper 4-16 would be better, I got time to think on it.

As far as FFP, I'm really not going to be milling anything unless I'm at full power. I'm not LEO / Mil so I obviously wont have a need to get shots off in a snap.

If I'm looking at a man-sized target and lets say 36" to groin to top of head. Lets say I'm shooting at 400 yards and need to aim up 10 inches, how would the answer in mil be different than moa? With moa I think I would have to adjust down 5 clicks with 1/2 moa adjustments because I know 1/2 moa at 400 yards is roughly 2".

Am I even on the right track here?? Remember I'm just learning this and don't have an optic on my gun yet so I dont know my ballistics yet.
 
#8
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

Well, try to rub the "inches" thing out of your head... because you don't really need them with moa any more than you do with mils. Shooting is an angular sport with the exception or range to target and size of target.

With mils or moa, there is no need to think of inches in relation to the movements of your turrets or the holds on your reticle. 1moa is 1moa, 1mil is 1mil.

So, if you zero for 100, and want to engage a target at 300, you aren't thinking "how many inches do I come up?" You are thinking "how many mils do I come up?" See what I mean? Its the same with moa, I just think mils are easier to use.

So for example, on a 308 zero'd for 100, at 300yds I'd come up approx 1.3 mils, or say... 4.5moa. Thats one of the things I like about mils vs moa. In mils, the numbers are small. It takes approx 10 - 11 mils for a 308 to hit 1000yds, but approx 42-46 minutes. Thats a shitload more cranking on the turret, and I don't like big numbers.
wink.gif
 
#9
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

The PST scopes have the option of matching MOA/MOA or mil/mil. I handled them at SHOT.

FFP has more to do with shooting than just ranging. You use holds for anything(wind, follow up shots, movers) it is good to not have to worry about what power your scope is on.

For your question you would either use a hold or dial on your mil data for 400 yards. Don't get hung up on inches. They aren't needed. If you shoot and see in the scope you hit .5 mils low then either hold over .5 mils or dial it on and you will hit.
 
#10
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

Ok well, that makes sense. I think what I'm just hung up on is looking at everything in inches and I know if I'm 10" low, I need adjust so many inches up. But I guess once I learn my scope and am able to accurately gauge everything in mils vs. converting the measuring system I've used all my life and then converting to MOA.

The FFP would be nice, but I'm strapped for cash enough as it is and can only really afford something in the $600 range right now but I'll see if I can unload my Bohica 50bmg upper and cover the cost of a higher-magnification FFP scope.
 
#14
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USMCj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">mil/mil and dont look back. </div></div>

+1
 
#16
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

Precision is not the only factor.

A scope with quarter-MOA adjustments is moving nominally 0.2618 inches per click at 100 yards. A scope with 0.1 mil adjustments is moving nominally 0.36 inches per click at 100 yards.

Scopes are available which have one-eight MOA clicks. However, they are used mostly in benchrest and F-class competiton, where speed of dialing to a new elevation doesn't matter, as there is not time pressure.

For tactical shooting, there is a tradeoff between precision of adjustment, and the ability to dial quickly to a new setting during multiple-target multiple-range engagements.

There is also the issue of single-turn versus multi-turn turrets. There are only so many clicks which can be put on a single-turn turret - but a multi-turn turret requires more mental discipline when changing settings to avoid winding up off a turn. A zero stop can help in that pursuit.
 
#17
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

Been shooting with MOA/MOA for a while now. Then I got a Mil/Mil. Now I want everything Mil/Mil. It is going to get expensive!
My advise is go Mil/Mil from the start.
I looked over the Vortex PST and the new Razor spotting scope the other day. Nice stuff! and the PST is available either configuration.
 
#18
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are scopes that have a mil reticle and moa adjustments at a disadvantage?</div></div>

Yes. If you see in your mil reticle that your point of impact is 0.2 mils off, you must convert that to a MOA number to dial the adjustment.

In addition, if you are maintaining your dope in MOA, and want to use the reticle for holdovers or holdunders, you have to convert the dope into mils.

So, life is simpler if the reticle is graduated in the same system the adjustments are in.
 
#19
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m1ajunkie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are scopes that have a mil reticle and moa adjustments at a disadvantage? </div></div>

I believe they are. Some may disagree.

If you have a mil reticle, and moa turrets, it is not a simple matter of dialing the adjustment as you see it in the scope. At least if you have matching moa/moa, you can dial what you see. Still more complicated than mils in my opinion, as the numbers are bigger, and you have to run the shit out of the turret.

For benchrest and dedicated target shooting, the moa 1/4 or 1/8 clicks are advantageous. For hunting and tactical shooting, I have fallen in love with mil/mil.
smile.gif
 
#22
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

If you see from the results of a shot that the point of impact is 0.2 mils away from your point of aim, you must multiply 0.2 mils by 3.438 to get the adjustments to make your POA and your POI coincide.

That kind of mental math may be difficult under time pressure.

If you want to see the kind of math involved in using a mil/MOA scope for holdovers and holdunders, see:

Calculating Holdovers and Holdunders
 
#23
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you see from the results of a shot that the point of impact is 0.2 mils away from your point of aim, you must multiply 0.2 mils by 3.438 to get the adjustments to make your POA and your POI coincide.

That kind of mental math may be difficult under time pressure.

If you want to see the kind of math involved in using a mil/MOA scope for holdovers and holdunders, see:

Calculating Holdovers and Holdunders
</div></div>

Thanks for the link. Seems to me that if you have a scope with a mil reticle and moa adjustments you will need a detailed dope card with both windage and elevations converted to mils to use as holdoff's.
 
#24
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

Conversely, with a mil/mil scope... if you see your impact is 0.2 mils away from your point of aim, you can just dial 0.2 mils on your turret, and hit your target.

No math. Just shooting.
wink.gif


If the reticle is not ffp, this will only work on one power, which is usually max.
 
#26
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

ON the web you can order a great program called shooter ready. It is a shooting simulator. It costs around $30 and it can show you how to use MOA or mil variants as well as mil/mil, moa/mil, moa/moa turrets. It is really worth the money before you spend a lot on a scope without knowing how to use it for what its worth.

I really like the matching reticle/ turret
 
#27
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GrimmRoper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ON the web you can order a great program called shooter ready. It is a shooting simulator. It costs around $30 and it can show you how to use MOA or mil variants as well as mil/mil, moa/mil, moa/moa turrets. It is really worth the money before you spend a lot on a scope without knowing how to use it for what its worth.

I really like the matching reticle/ turret</div></div>

Or use the demos to teach people that have no clue what your talking about, and save the 40 bucks.
 
#28
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah... I'm going to have to Google almost every word that Lindy said... sucks being a noob with this shit.
laugh.gif
</div></div>

Jello,
All Lindy and Orkan are saying is that it is easier if your scope knobs are marked the same as your reticle. Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA.

Mils will be easier mathematically than MOA when you get used to using them. Trust us on that. Don't worry....It all falls into place.....especially when you actually walk through it and use it slowly in the field.

Mil turret knobs and Mil reticle on a first focal plane lens is the best way to go FOR tactical shooting and hunting.... and as some of the guys said, there are good scopes in your price range.

here is the difference in Mil and MOA:

1 Milliradian = 3.6” / 3.438 MOA

0.1 Milliradian = .36” / .3438 MOA
 
#29
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah... I'm going to have to Google almost every word that Lindy said... sucks being a noob with this shit.
laugh.gif
</div></div>

Ain't it great? Sure, there are some growing pains in learning anything new, but those "a-HA!!!" moments when things finally click and make sense are awesome!
smile.gif


I started with Mil/MOA, and it is doable. But I recently switched to mil/mil (and FFP), and there's just no going back. It's much faster and far easier to get things right the first time through. I highly recomment the Shooter Ready program. You can read all about this stuff, but it usually makes more sense when you can see it in action, and Shooter Ready let's you do that with wasting ammo during the initial learning process.
 
#30
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

Just dont look back!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do you say mil/mil and dont look back?

What are the most precise adjustments? </div></div>
 
#32
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
here is the difference in Mil and MOA:

1 Milliradian = 3.6” / 3.438 MOA
</div></div>

The above has folded in a specific target distance and only partially at that. Using a concrete example to describe the difference between MOA and mil -

You have before you a pizza. There are three buddies plus you who want equal sized pieces. You know how to quarter a pizza. Note an important aspect to what you just did: it didn't matter if it was an 8" or 18" pizza, everyone got an equal slice. "MOA" and "mil" are just ways of specifying how many buddies you have to divide the pizza against.

Minutes of arc divvies the pizza into 21600 equal slices. (360 degrees with 60 minutes per degree.)

Milliradians divvies it into 6283.1853...(neverending non-repeating decimals) slices. (2pi radians with 1000 mils per radian.)

That's all there is to the difference between MOA and mils: number of equal slices.

There are some interesting implications to the above. One is angles are ratios (arc/radius) and have no units, inches or otherwise. Another is neither system is "decimal". Hell, mils aren't even rational (math term). Historically MOA scopes use halving fractions to subdivide an MOA, and mil scopes use tenths to subdivide mils, but those are just conventions. There is absolutely no reason why MOA couldn't use tenths and mils use halving fractions. MOA and mil are just pieces of a circle - how you subdivide them is up to you.

End of geometry blurb.
smile.gif
Why pieces of circles are useful in scopes and how to use them is a different blurb from what the pieces are.
 
#33
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reti

At the end of the day beginners who are taught Mil / Mil correctly and are not corrupted with a mix of MOA or Linear Mathematics, learn faster and are more effective quicker using both the reticle and the adjustments.

The confusion comes when someone adds in the combination of both systems and spoils the simplicity of things with linear definitions.
 
#35
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At the end of the day beginners who are taught Mil / Mil correctly and are not corrupted with a mix of MOA or Linear Mathematics, learn faster and are more effective quicker using both the reticle and the adjustments.

The confusion comes when someone adds in the combination of both systems and spoils the simplicity of things with linear definitions. </div></div>


Agree totally...
 
#36
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reti

I checked out that Shooter Ready software and am somewhat able to use it to get an idea of mil system.

However the target is 6' tall so 2yards x 1000 / mils = range in yards. That's pretty easy to remember, but most targets aren't even measurable in yards.

Say I'm shooting at a object of 10" in diameter (groundhog), it's .27 yards.

I'd have to sit with a damn calculator and do a shitload of math to even get a shot off and by that time the groundhog would be long gone.

Is there a formula for measuring something in inches that applies to Mil?
 
#39
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reti

regardless of what you choose, mill targets when you have to. Use a rangefinder whenever you can. The smaller the target the more difficult it is to range.

I prefer mills and work in numbers devided by 10 all day every day and find it much simpler than fourths. Also it is much easier to remember mills for each range because the number is smaller. 7.2 is much easier to remember than 24.75.

1/4's should be left to tape measures.
 
#40
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reti

In order to use the mil system, you must know the size of the target to determine the range or the distance to determine the size of the target. It does take math to figure it out, but you can also use a mildot master to greatly increase your speed.

If you are super concerned with speed or getting passed the initial learning curve of the mil system, you should look at some of the new bdc reticle. NF has their ranging reticles that greatly improved some guys training @ a recent sniping comp out here. Zeiss also has a great looking system with their rapid z reticles.
A major drawback however to zeiss is that you pay for a scope with up to 14 power and because of the dikfference in loads it will suggest a lower magnification in order for the lines to line up. Waste of power and innacurate magnification readings can be havoc. Who can accurately line up 12.31 magnification?
 
#41
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The confusion comes when someone adds in the combination of both systems and spoils the simplicity of things with linear definitions. </div></div>

Yeah. Milling with one system and having to adjust turrets with another is just nuts. Extra unusable points if the reticle's subtension is variable with the scope's power. Variable power mil/moa (or moa/mil) SFP scopes are a Really Bad Idea. The only way to make it worse is to throw linear measurements into it somewhere.
 
#42
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GrimmRoper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are super concerned with speed or getting passed the initial learning curve of the mil system, you should look at some of the new bdc reticle. </div></div>

Call me old fashion, but I feel the BDC craze is a step backward.
 
#43
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Call me old fashion, but I feel the BDC craze is a step backward.</div></div>

I agree. A BDC reticle which is being used outside the set of conditions it was created for is a pain in the ass, because you will be constantly figuring out how much to adjust your hold for the conditions you are in.

Just go with a standard reticle in graduations which match the turret adjustments.

Shooting is hard enough without making it harder.

There is a place for a BDC reticle, and that's on a carbine optic where the rifle will never be shot far enough for the atmospheric conditions to matter.

They have no place on a precision rifle.
 
#44
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

Bill Stoffels said:
Just dont look back!!!

+1

I have never heard anybody who went MIL/MIL say they should have done MOA/MOA.

On milling targets: buy a Mildot master...leave the math in the reference section of your data book.
Click to expand...
 
#45
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cpl Snafu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have never heard anybody who went MIL/MIL say they should have done MOA/MOA. </div></div>

I've heard heard it said the other way around a few times though.
smile.gif
 
#46
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reti

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Call me old fashion, but I feel the BDC craze is a step backward.</div></div>

I agree. A BDC reticle which is being used outside the set of conditions it was created for is a pain in the ass, because you will be constantly figuring out how much to adjust your hold for the conditions you are in.

Just go with a standard reticle in graduations which match the turret adjustments.

Shooting is hard enough without making it harder.

There is a place for a BDC reticle, and that's on a carbine optic where the rifle will never be shot far enough for the atmospheric conditions to matter.

They have no place on a precision rifle.
</div></div>


+1... Perfectly stated, BDC fans are advised to listen and take heed of Lindy's post it is spot on
 
#47
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

Mildot master? Do they make one for a mil reticle like the Leupold TMR / Vortex Viper PST mil reticle?

A slide card (for lack of better terminology) would be great, but should that ever get wet and fail I need to know how to do this on my own in time.

I've been playing with the Shooter Ready demo and kind of understand how mils work, BUT I can't do it with a calculator to do the math.

Maybe a mil reticle is useless for me since I'm not shooting PEOPLE but rather targets. Seems great if you have a constant-sized target but if SHTF and I gotta mill license plats, stop signs, or doors I need to be able to do the math in my head.

I was always good with math, but taking a high number like 70 inches, multiplying by 27.8 and then dividing by # of mils just seems fucking impossible unless you're Steven Fucking Hawking.

How do you snipers in the Military / LEO teach yourself this stuff? Or is their an easier formula? Or, is it after repeated repetitions you just kinda get a feel for the math results?
 
#48
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

The Mildot Master works with reticles in mils, MOA, or IPHY.

It's not made on card stock - it's plastic, and rain doesn't bother it a bit.

Your math skills may be poor, but that's what the Mildot Master is for, so you don't have to do the math in your head.
 
#50
Re: As a beginner, should I get an moa or mil reticle?

jlowell,

Yeah that article helps a bit. I'm just overwhelmed by the math but I think the mildot master should help a lot initally.

Just gotta remember to bring that and a calculator to the range, else I'm screwed! LOL
 
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