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Suppressors AWC? Any love out there?

Re: AWC? Any love out there?

I've seen the inside of a Thundertrap before and I know that how it looks. In fact that's what I originally thought and pointed out to the dealer until I looked at the can. The suppressor I looked at had a definite strike on one as there was still jacket material left on it in one little area. That same area was also sticking up slightly around the rest of the interior in that area. When compared to another Thundertrap the dealer had, it was obvious the the area where the bullet hit on the defective one was sticking up into the path of the bullet. The dealer checked the rifles the defective were used on with other suppressors(including the Thundertrap I compared the defective one to) and the rifle's shot fine and had no problems with those suppressors. When they tried the two intact, defective Thundertraps at the range with the same rifles and ammo that worked fine with the other suppressors, the rifles wouldn't shoot worth anything with the Thundertraps. They also had video footage of the destroyed when it was fired for the total of two rounds which resulted in it's destruction. It showed the suppressor properly installed on the rifle.

The dealer's issue and my issue is that they are taking a $3000 to $6000 hit off three defective suppressors that they either gave the buyers a full refund on or replaced with another suppressor for free when AWC said they were not defective and blamed on user error and the gunsmith who threaded the barrel's despite evidence that the suppressors were defective and the gunsmith work was properly done.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

Kilo, I tried..FLUTES NO SHOULDER.

Complete and utter nonsense..

Now, go back and ask the dealer how he expected a blast can to thread on to a barrel when there was no shoulder to center the can? Ask him why did they choose to use a fully fluted barrel when anybody knows a blast can requires a centering shoulder break at threads end. Ask him about his sending the struck back to AWC <span style="font-weight: bold">and how AWC fixed the can for free and how AWC paid to ship it back for FREE. One baffle strike, end baffle strike, off axis because of a bizarre thread job on a full fluted barrel.</span>

Ask him about what happened when the barrel was sent back to AWC? Thats right, AWC asked for and received the barrel. And most importantly, <span style="font-weight: bold">what AWC recommended be done with that barrel.</span>

Now its lesson time, the other cans they tried were progressive can (small initial bore, LARGE end bores) cans. Progressive bores cause megaphone effect. No tight spec (quiet) blast can would reliably center with work like this.

All the rest? the "Defective" the "blaming" the "error" etc., etc. does any of that make sense to you? Do you think that is how manufacturers and dealers interact? Do you believe that "three" cans can set the dealer back "$3-$6k"?

When I first heard this story, I called into AWC and asked what the hell was going on. It took all of 10 minutes to dope this out. That barrel, that can, the load development build specs (short barrel..sub sonic), lack of thread gauges, its all oft talked about. Its actually a very important and interesting suppressor story. They think they have seen it all over 30 years, but nope, there is always something new. And as importantly, it's the kind of head shaking "we bend over backwards for our dealers" story that never gets told.

Kilo, got videos? Post 'em.

Until then...

Your famous full fluted, threads running into the shoulder barrel end...

3.jpg


val810huckleberry-234x300.jpg
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

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Sounds fine to me. The time for a standard opening and cleaning is a couple of weeks. This is a rebuild or upgrade, right?

Okent,

2-18 in....

In my experience...

For a Raider, the standard rebuild time is approximately 6-8 weeks. For a titanium approx a little more. You are on week 4.
What did you ask for, standard or titanium upgrade?

The archangel well that is interesting. These units usually get processed in four weeks. What did you <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">exactly</span></span> ask for on the archangel? Anything goofy?



..

 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

No judgment passed, just posting an update.
There was no timeline given by AWC when I arranging the return so I don't know exactly what to expect.
Thanks for the time ranges.

I did request that the Raider be converted to the lighter weight Ti model.

The Archangel was a little different/goofy.

I will be using the can for either 17hm2 or if possible 5.7X28. I asked if that was possible but Chris did not know so I am waiting to hear back after whoever does the rebuilds gets with Chris or talks to me or reads my note in the package or whatever. The Archangel is built with a shorter thread length with the thinking that this will prevent users from screwing the can onto their Ar15 but what this does is prevent someone like me from using the suppressor on a dedicated .22lr AR upper.
I also want this feature removed so it will thread all the way to the shoulder on a standard AR barrel.
Again, just waiting on a call from AWC so this can all be discussed and I can give them payment info.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

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No problem.

Your Raider is on schedule, the TI should be 6-8 week deal. Mine were.

I'll step out on a limb and say that their boring for 5.7 is not going to happen. Do yourself a favor and just call them up and tell them to prepare the rig for a dedicated .22 upper and bag the 5.7. It will be back pronto. Your right about the requirement to stop folks from .223ing this can.


 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

I am curious as to what you guys are referring to when you say "upgrade to Ti"? Are we talking about changing the internals to TI? If so, how much difference does it make weight-wise and what's the average cost - if you know? Mine is back there now and if this is an option, I need to call Chris ASAP and look into it for my Thundertrap.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'll step out on a limb and say that their boring for 5.7 is not going to happen. Do yourself a favor and just call them up and tell them to prepare the rig for a dedicated .22 upper and bag the 5.7. It will be back pronto. Your right about the requirement to stop folks from .223ing this can.
</div></div>

They do not have to bore anything out to allow 5.7 to pass through as it is the same size as .22lr unless they make their blast baffle exceptionally tight. I understand that the can wasn't made for the 5.7 but while the stack is out and if the tube is able to handle the pressure then I would like the internals to be upgraded to handle it, knowing that suppression will be less.
Kind of like the Spectre, which I already have.
The thread issue shouldn't be a problem to change while it is apart.

I don't want to be "that guy" who calls every week asking for updates on their whatever and in the note enclosed with my items I asked for a phone call when they got to my stuff.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.

I'll step out on a limb and say that their boring for 5.7 is not going to happen. Do yourself a favor and just call them up and tell them to prepare the rig for a dedicated .22 upper and bag the 5.7. It will be back pronto.

</div></div>

Come on R.T. you should have known better than having to bore out the can for 5.7. The bore size is not a problem but pressure definitely is.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

Boys...come on now guys...

The only way to accommodate the resulting pressure is to overbore on this unit. I don't think that they are going to do that. This suppressor is not the more common graduated bore design, it is tight throughout and chamber driven. That is how they get the results they do, and that is not going to work with 5.7 pressures. Just let it go.

Call 'em up and talk, they actually answer the phone. If Chris isn't there, ask for Jeff.

 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

CSI, I would call in and check it all out. The weight is quite different, but I'm on the road and don;t have the actually specs.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

I don't know what grade of titanium they use for their tubes but there are suppressors made from Ti for 5.56, specifically the Quicksilver can that is about the size of the Archangel.
Only AWC would know if the tube can handle the pressures so I will wait for their answer.
If they do not graduate their baffles then that is concerning to me. Both of my AWC cans have had endcap strikes.

This all started with the recommendation to try AWC again after my previous poor experience which is posted earlier in this thread.

I do not feel that I should have to prod them to get back with me and discuss options. They will get to me when they get to me. I'm not in a hurry as I have plenty of toys to play with but I will post updates as time passes and share my experience good or bad.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

Okent, look I'm not able to take this much further as I'm not building them or a psychiatrist.

Raiders are in service throughout the world, few get returned for baffle strikes of any kind. There is some degree of responsibility using suppressors that include managing the can when in use. When somebody tells me BOTH their cans have end cap strikes, well I have been at this too long to look toward the maker, most often, hell with it..., almost without exception, the operator hasn't done their job in managing the threading of the barrel (see the fiasco above) or making sure the suppressor is on tight and right.

Prod, all the rest is kind of a personal thing. Some folks can deal with getting their cans rebuilt and others can't. I am sure, and you can be sure, that if AWC opens up your cans and sees strikes they are going to be all over you.

Graduating baffles is for cans that QD or expect tolerances to be so loose that they have to make up for the off axis strikes. If you are concerned about NOT having a graduated suppressor, well then you have to buy lower tolerance cans, as that is not what you bought.

The Archangel can is for .22. Don't be upset if they tell you no. There are alot of folks that take that shallow threading and decide that they can throw it on a .223 and let loose. No shoulder....the strikes are those of a jacketed bullet. .22 strike one way.....223 another. Did you shoot .223 through your archangel?

The titanium they use is all 100% American, that is rare, rare, rare. I have seen the China tubes in use by others and I can tell you it is j-u-n-k.

DO you need to call in? Nope. Are they late? Nope. Will your cans be perfect when you get them back? Yep. Did they build you a can(s) that inherently cause bullet strikes? Nope. Did you do something that created the considerations for bullet strikes? Yep. Is that going to make you feel good? Nope. Do I like telling folks this? Nope.


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Re: AWC? Any love out there?

No offense RT but I still find it hard (if not impossible) to believe you have no interest in AWC based on your reactions and relentlessness. You borderline attack any negative comment made towards AWC.

If you really are just an over zealous customer, AWC should be thanking God your for them and not against them.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

While I tend to agree on your comments..I find your signature line hillarious.. can anyone believe that?...seriously?

Hoover.... this has got to be a fuckin joke...right?

RT does come accross as a passionate defender...questionable...but he does present an argument rather than an infatuated opinion...credibility..yes..in my book ...
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

I too am a happy AWC customer for over 15 years. Great customer service and a great product. I would like to state that I'am not affiliated in any way with AWC except they took my money,sold me great products and stand behind them.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

First off, AWC botched two of my threading jobs in a row so this "perfect" business is unfounded. NOBODY does perfect work 100% of the time.

If you want to call me incompetent then please send me a PM and we will take it to the bear pit otherwise you owe me an apology about assuming I can't thread on a suppressor correctly.

Yes, I have had two baffle strikes from both of my AWC cans. I happen to have 7 other suppressors that have not had this problem, seven. I would say I know how to screw on a suppressor correctly and how to check to make sure it has not loosened. It is what it is, whether it is a fluke occurrence or not is not my call and definitely not yours.

We can debate graduated baffle stacks all day long so lets just say it is my preference. I am not here to have one of those "I know you are but what am I" school yard matches.
If you want to talk about that then please start another thread.

Titanium being american made is great, but what is the type/grade? There are different grades with different strength characteristics and that was my point. I understand the Archangel was made for .22lr but if they make such overbuilt suppressors then my question is whether they could change out the baffle stack to allow it to handle 5.7. Yes or no. Unless you work for them then it is their call and I will be happy to post what they tell me, the customer.

My reasoning for wanting the threads changed is very straight forward and I have no idea where you get the question of whether I am shooting 5.56 through my suppressor. Where did that question come from? Really?

If this is going to deteriorate into a comparison of who has the most tax stamps then so be it but my post was simply stating that it had been 4+ weeks since I sent in the suppressors for servicing. If that gives you a case of the red ass then I can't help it.
We all know you like AWC and that is fine. You even talked me into sending my two suppressors in for servicing when I was ready to write them off.
This will be my last go around with AWC if they can't get it right and like I said before, they will never miss me, but don't expect me to wave their banner like you do if they don't treat me right.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slimguns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No offense RT but I still find it hard (if not impossible) to believe you have no interest in AWC based on your reactions and relentlessness. You borderline attack any negative comment made towards AWC.
</div></div>
Agreed 100%
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slimguns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you really are just an over zealous customer, AWC should be thanking God your for them and not against them. </div></div>
That's debatable. my dealings with AWC directly have been more cordial.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fair enough...you appear to have been that anointed 2003 guy. Pity.

<span style="font-weight: bold">TI Raiders come in at just under 20 oz.</span>

Now add that QD unit to your M4 (17.5) and you are....yep, at 21.3 0zs. They never add their mount weights and nobody catches it.

Lastly, those Raiders are heavier because AWC determined that the process to eliminate the TI resonance is to final wrap in SS to buffer. That will cost you 1.2ozs.

Call Chris, tell him your story, kick his ass hard and get your units back for an upgrade. IMO, the time has come for you to get back on track with them and from what your telling me, I'd say you deserve a round on them. They have been at this 30 years, full spectrum in 30 years...no doubt.

BJ, didn't mean to suggest that those are like the vast majority of subs. IMO, one just doesn't need subs to hit hard in a .22 and why bother with more than high velocity 40 grain hollows? Much, much cleaner with purge baffles to run with the hv.

</div></div>

Funny you say that. Just under 20 ounces.

We are making a new 5.56 silencer for a April 9th Knob Creek debut that I believe will be sweeping the market in 5.56mm in the thread mount category. I was surprised, on looking at the website, that AWC doesn't apparently market a QD silencer. We'll have one in 6 weeks (our One Zero)

Our Spartan II (thread mount) silencer is manufactured from alloy tool steel and is 18.5 ounces and half an inch shorter [6.2"] < 1.5oz lighter than the titanium raider. Melonite QPQ makes it more than corrosion resistant enough for the job, and the price is $299 which is market leading, at least as far as I know. The Titanium Raider is $1295. Wow. You know what? Quote this post and I'll sell you one for $295 and you can say HP LLC saved you $1000.

The AWC cam lock system sounds like a Nord Lock washer to me. Our silencer has notches for a 17/32 1.5" pattern face pin spanner wrench to allow an end user to get the proper 32ft lbs of torque necessary to eliminate the Nord Lock. Additionally our silencers steel should have a similar expansion rate to 4140 barrel steel which should increase mounting security over alternate materials such as 316L stainless steel and Titanium.

I believe we'll be offering a better silencer for less money.

If the government is interested, we can offer substantial price breaks on it in volume. I'm not sure whether they'll have any interest in a thread mount silencer at any price, but I feel that they should, as it gets the job done with minimal cost, allowing more soldiers to be issued the equipment.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

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Like I said Okent, I'm not a psychiatrist.

csi, like the product, know tha culture there and understand the science involved. Most folks kick the crap out of the manufacturer when they are at fault. The issue is personal accountability. Reread this thread, its all there. These same folks would never say to the manufacturer what they liberally post on a thread. I would and do and never had to at AWC. Good folks, superb products. Any love out there? Hell yes and from all the right sources.

HPLLC, kind of you, I really do appreciate it. Seriously. I can't use one right now, but the government may very well appreciate a 6" steel, $299 suppressor that uses a tool and is rated for "conservative full auto fire."

QD, here: http://www.awcsystech.com/about/faq/ read #9.

Also, HP there is this;

". <span style="font-weight: bold">Some contracts we let go, those were what we called “good enough” contracts where what was asked for had to be dirt cheap and just “good enough” to help keep the noise levels down. Margins were thin on those contracts, products looked liked tack welded car mufflers, sound levels were poor, acceptance by operatives poorer. That was no business for us, smartest thing we ever did was politely saying “no”. </span>Having said that, to this day, when any of our clientele really get down to the selecting the quietest, most trouble free, highest quality, most accurate suppressor, they always come calling and get warmly received. They still marvel at our newest products and we still are unabashedly proud and deeply respectful of the service men and women who choose to put their life on the line with our products."

From here:

http://www.awcsystech.com/about/letter-from-mac/
.



 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

RollingThunder51, every time I try and have an intelligent conversation about AWC problems you can't.

I am a physician and know many Psychiatrists and they for some reason do not feel that I need therapy.

You are a coward and a shill.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

.

Perfect....


<span style="font-weight: bold">cow·ard </span>&[kou-erd]–noun
a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person.

<span style="font-weight: bold">shill </span> (shl) Slang -noun
One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.
v. shilled, shill·ing, shills

<span style="font-weight: bold">in·tel·li·gent</span> Function: adjective
a : having or indicating a high or satisfactory degree of intelligence and mental capacity b : revealing or reflecting good judgment or sound thought : skillful

Doc, great job. Your welcome, happy to give you a hand.

 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.

HPLLC, kind of you, I really do appreciate it. Seriously. I can't use one right now, but the government may very well appreciate a 6" steel, $299 suppressor that uses a tool and is rated for "conservative full auto fire."

QD, here: http://www.awcsystech.com/about/faq/ read #9.

Also, HP there is this;

". <span style="font-weight: bold">Some contracts we let go, those were what we called “good enough” contracts where what was asked for had to be dirt cheap and just “good enough” to help keep the noise levels down. Margins were thin on those contracts, products looked liked tack welded car mufflers, sound levels were poor, acceptance by operatives poorer. That was no business for us, smartest thing we ever did was politely saying “no”. </span>Having said that, to this day, when any of our clientele really get down to the selecting the quietest, most trouble free, highest quality, most accurate suppressor, they always come calling and get warmly received. They still marvel at our newest products and we still are unabashedly proud and deeply respectful of the service men and women who choose to put their life on the line with our products."

From here:

http://www.awcsystech.com/about/letter-from-mac/
.

</div></div>

If someone wanted to mount our silencer to a Nord lock washer without tools they could and would just have to confirm alignment before shooting the product. They would probably need a tool to remove it though as that is just how "cam lock" fasteners work".

We didn't design the silencer to be "good enough". The silencer will be a great product and it won't be ugly, loud, or weak. The low price just gives a customer a reason to pick us out of a glutted market where other decent thread mount silencers exist. We'd rather sell 4 cans for a low margin than 1 for a major pay out. I don't like the idea of sitting on my hands and not working for business. When I have the resources to do better, I will.

I think you confused the silencer I'm talking about with our older original Spartan silencer. The Spartan II is a total redesign. The AWC raider is rated in the manual for "intelligent full auto bursts" Our Spartan II is similar. It has a .265" bore with a .281 front cap. If we bored it at .300" straight it would take all the abuse you could throw at it, but sound and flash reduction would suffer slightly. The limiting factor is projectile stability not the silencer's construction or materials. Big Army M4's are not even capable of full auto fire. The average soldier carries 7 27round magazines; 189 rounds. Ops Inc has fielded a lot of .261" bored silencers to the military. Current soldiers have been trained to engage threats and to use semi-automatic fire. The heavy recreational NFA user's schedule is not the same as a typical soldier in our current Global War on Terror. We've put as many as 500 rounds through silencers with similar bore dimensions in 10 minutes without issues. It's running 5-7 mags full auto in less than 40 seconds that will cause a failure [baffle strikes from marginally stable projectiles], not rapid target engagement in semi auto which permits some barrel cooling to occur.

I know what the military can use because I'm in the military. The QD system is a nice item to have and that's why we're manufacturing QD silencers as well, but if you give a sniper a choice between a thread mount silencer and no silencer, he'll choose a thread mount silencer. <span style="font-weight: bold">Obviously here that's a mute point as it appears both silencers we're comparing are thread mount silencers. </span>

Unfortunately unit funds sometimes dictate what can and can't be purchased. A solution is better than no solution.

If you feel the more comparable (titanium AWC unit) is vastly superior please send it to Silencer Research and John can test it with two B&K2209 sound meters (one at the shooters ear and the other mil-std. Our Spartan II is headed down there in 3 weeks. I'd love to see them tested head to head.

 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

HP, I appreciate your perspective.

No Nord lock washer lock-up. The cam lock is used in full auto applications, HEAVY full auto applications. And that is were you and I need to spend some time. Raiders are built to run. No issue with Cam Loc.

Back when AWC did Colt Industry cans, these were tested with multiple guns, multi barrels, tested to exceed 150,000 total rounds rounds through the same suppressor. There is no published limitation on continuous rounds through the Raiders in full auto. On record, beta mag dumps over and over. The AWC Raider is one piece seamless tubing all 360 degree welded (has been way before anybody....ANYBODY...Surefire Cans weren't even around then.) Now? AWC Raiders are rated around 75,000 (because of 8" barrel impact). That would be 15,000 more than the most competitor can. Plan on a regular 14" barrel going the full 150,000. Think overbuilt. HP the raider is not a $300 can. The materials alone, the welding, the ceramic exterior,etc. etc. It is a different league. Don't take this the wrong way, but these cans go to folks that want the best that can be had.

In the full history of cam lock (10 years) there have been about a dozen instances of over tightening, all of them because the operator did not know how to properly mount the cam-lock full auto system. Here is how the thousands and thousands of others deal with it, you take the can, twist it on, hear it click a few times and go. The units will always come off, those that haven't have overtightened. Even when the % of 1%'s get stuck, it means they have already flattened out the cam-lock, degrease the exterior, strap wrench, no more issue. SO there you are...no AWC Raider full auto limitations. 5 to 7 mags in under 40 seconds?? Hell with that grab a beta and a Raider and go. Your going to hurt the gun more than the silencer. No Cam Lock Issues.

Look, when Addicted first asked the question, those that have used AWC products, some like myself for 30 years stepped forward and explained our answer to "any love?" Good and bad, but qualified. Far too often, bad barrel threading on fluted barrels, subsonic rounds that won't stabilize, or just plain misunderstanding the caliber limitations, threading limitations or good practices involved in suppression skew the opinion of what a manufacturer did or didn't do. That is all this thread is about.

Silencer Research....Back porch metering isn't going to cut it. I've already already written about this. IT IS not ONLY about dBs. It is not ONLY about PEAK pressure. It is about Peak, Duration AND Frequency. Nobody test more than AWC and has done it longer. Listen to cans, listen as many cans you can is the key.







 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

I didn't come here to be argumentative.

From what you are saying we have absolutely no competition from AWC in the sound game- they take a thick washer and drop an end mill at a 45 degree angle through a .300" plus bore necessary for the product to take beta dumps over and over (as in back to back). Beta dumps are great but they quite simply have nothing to do with a military need in nearly all suppressor applications. You could probably destroy an Ops 12th model with two beta dumps back to back- yet the operators love their Ops cans and have nothing bad to say about them. And rightly so- the cans are phenomenal for accuracy and sound reduction.

With all due respect I've worked around the best in the military for years, and I've seen KAC, Ops Inc, Gemtech, HK, and AAC silencers. Never once have I seen an AWC silencer in my time in the military. If "the best" in this case means NFA users, I believe you're correct in your use of it.

I still would welcome a product comparison for sound. I know it won't likely happen but I would prefer it did. The silencer industry uses the B&K 2209. The military uses the B&K 2209. There's nothing back porch about it. It's industry standard testing protocol. When one entity stands alone in resistance to industry std protocol, it doesn't make the industry look eccentric.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

Read the stuff I linked for, they all use the same standards.

They don't take a thick washer....they don't bore to .300...they don't use a angle end mill..that is not what is necessary to take the required effort and effect.

HP, I truly wish your venture all the best.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

One thing I have to say here.... I don't know your product and am making no disparaging remarks about it. However, if you can say that you have no competition from AWC in terms of suppression, I would have to press my bullshit button here as well. I have a couple of friends who have Thundertraps, as do I, and I have yet to hear any suppressor more pleasant to the ear. In this case, RT is right. It really isn't all about dbs. Tone, pitch, frequency, whatever you choose to call it - AWC kicks ass and takes names. I have AAC suppressors, I have SRT suppressors (which I very highly recommend as well!!), and I have one YHM suppressor. Of the .30 cal. suppressors I can say I actually own, none sound better than the Thundertrap. Period.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

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Appreciate you saying that.

now if I could only get Tuscon Dave to stop painting zoological rifles.....


..
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

<span style="font-style: italic">I'm going nuts here. About pissed myself.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">HPLLC</span> or <span style="font-weight: bold">Griffin Armament</span>, cant help but turn a meaningful thread into a sales pitch. Never fails to do it. It's not a hijack so much as a detour. Scroll back up and re-read for those following this. Sales pitch, then returned to regular topic.

And then <span style="font-weight: bold">RollingThunder51</span>. I'd like to see pictures of this cam lock. Specifically I'd like pictures so I can post pictures of nordlock washers and everyone will clearly see how they are COMPLETELY different animals. This should be an extremely easy request to accommodate.

Also. The SWR Spectre handles 5.7mm without having a graduated bore. So does quite a few other .22lr suppressors in testing. Shall I name them all? Construction methods can negate the need to over bore apertures.

I've decided RollingThunder51 either works at AWC or is related to someone who does. It's quite obvious actually. You seem to keep dropping all sorts of proprietary numbers, history, and testing data.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

I've seen an AWC raider before in person. It was mounted to a weapon at the time. To my eye it looked like a thread mount silencer. Inside the baffle I could see looked like a washer that had had an end mill dropped through the bore at a 45 degree angle like the images above. The 24 ounces is not a very competitive weight. The silencer I saw appeared to be nearly new. It may have been older production. That's the most objective thing I can say about it.

Sorry about the sales pitch if that's what you see it as. I just thought the $900-$1295 was excessive for what appeared to be a thread mount 5.56 silencer weighing 24 or 20 ounces and felt that that information was the best way to illustrate just how excessive it appeared to be.

The silencers are obviously a quality product. They are durable, and the company will be around. I wouldn't buy one for more than $350 without someone demonstrating why I would want a "cam-lock system" and independently sound testing the can with some positive results. I have 32.5 DB, welded thread mount silencers in inventory that we designed and manufactured and they are still at the end of the day "thread mount silencers" and those to me have value- but QD silencers seem generally more attractive and more valuable to me personally.

It wasn't my intention to rip on a product. In a world where I've heard of guys buying Inconel fast attach Surefire FA556-212's for as low as $699, the Raider for $995 to $1295 just seems high was my only point.

The lack of accessible data from independent testing of AWC silencers doesn't make it easy to understand why they are worth two to three times the cost of competing products. AWC could rectify that at any time if they wanted to. That they choose not to makes some people naturally skeptical as they should be. Some silencers on the market are under performing and independent testing helps users to steer clear of them without risking their money. I would love to hear one sometime.

Lynn has former military experience and that is cool. For a welded silencer- the AWC product is very refined in appearance. They did a good job dressing welds with post-process machining.

 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

.

I don't own one. Somebody else will have to step in on that one. I've decided you can't remember how many times you have said the same thing, Jack. I don't work for them, used them for close to 30 years, and I for one, got tired of nobody stepping up when the BS started to run. I paid for every can, every rebuild, every upgrade. I know these cans and I know these folks and the days of people thinking its flat washers and end mills is over. Just about everything one sees out in the marketplace today has a direct bearing on work AWC did decades ago, the fact that the kids can't or won;t admit to where these techniques and designs and efforts came from is over. There is allot of deep respect out there for AWC, I am not alone on this one.


 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

off topic,but. hpllc you seem to be promoting your new company and product. you should read the rules regarding vendors.vendors pay a fee to frank. and really your shameless plug for your company is out of line in this thread.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

BachelorJack:

They are Nord-Lock washers, at least what was sent with my Raider. I was told this by Judy and Mac back when I bought my can. I asked about a QD model and Mac said he made one but that it was louder and heavier than the thread on can and that the Nord-Lock washers were his recommendation.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okent</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BachelorJack:

They are Nord-Lock washers, at least what was sent with my Raider. I was told this by Judy and Mac back when I bought my can. I asked about a QD model and Mac said he made one but that it was louder and heavier than the thread on can and that the Nord-Lock washers were his recommendation. </div></div>

That's good information.

$3.63 per Nord Lock washer pair.

The Nord Lock washers do work. They require no tools to install, won't allow the suppressor to break loose, and will require tools to remove the silencer as torque required to do that seems to be about 50ft lbs. In my opinion, that is on account of the fasteners being designed for 1/2x13 or 1/2x20 threads and 1/2x28 threads being a finer pitch. Other silencer manufacturers [Gemtech, AAC (Robert Silvers), and SWR] have weighed in on that saying that they do not recommend Nord Lock washers because some have bad geometry and will cause misalignment of the silencer.

My limited experience with them has been positive, but I'm sure there is a good reason one silencer company owner in passing made reference to a box of Nord Lock washers he would give me for free if I wanted them, stating alignment issues as his reason for his lack of desire for payment.

I already had a box of them so I didn't take him up on the offer.

One thing I noticed is that the silencer is not ready to check for alignment until it is briskly tightened against the nord lock and then loosed until the washer pair grabs. That is the orientation in which the silencer will remain for the duration of use. there is maybe 20 degrees of rotation between fully tightened and the point at which the nord lock pair is engaged and actually holding the parts in assembly.

Given the potential tolerance issues with the stamped washer pairs I feel Ase Utra's advice to simply torque the silencer to 32FT lbs with tools prior to firing seems to be the better of the two options on the grounds that it is probably more likely to eliminate human error as alignment with this method should be good whether it is checked or not as long as the barrel thread was good to begin with.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.

best-minds-1.jpg
</div></div>
<span style="font-style: italic">I don't get it. Do you have a lab now? I'm not very good with photoshop, so don't expect a cool picture in return. </span>

I can't figure this out. You either invent numbers and figures, which you post publicly like their realworld and factual.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 11pt">OR</span></span>
You are somehow affiliated with AWC or someone else in the industry. It's really that simple. And obvious. If you would like me to stop repeating it, why don't you just fess up? I'm sure I can't be the only one interested.

So far as wanting to support AWC as a manufacturer and innovator, I get it. I've got an AWC item lying around that I need to sell. It's a WARP 6 and Beretta M9. I'll send you a link to my ad so you can post about how amazing it is when the time comes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okent</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BachelorJack:

They are Nord-Lock washers, at least what was sent with my Raider. I was told this by Judy and Mac back when I bought my can. I asked about a QD model and Mac said he made one but that it was louder and heavier than the thread on can and that the Nord-Lock washers were his recommendation. </div></div>

<span style="font-style: italic">Oh, I know this. That's what makes this so funny. I've got a little baggie of AWC's Cam Locks in a drawer here...</span>
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

.


Jack, it's in the center drawer in a plastic bottle marked "this is it", it's a full dose of a normal sense of humor. That would not be a lab Jack, that would not be an engineer, that would be Steve Zissou, aka Bill Murray. The hat should have been a give-away.

I get it now, it sure as hell isn't about anything AWC is or isn't. There is as much solid information on suppression in general and AWC in particular here as I can provide. Some folks you just can't please, I can live with that.

I'd love to see the AWC Cam Loc can pic, please post it. Glad that the guy that asked for the photo has the unit. Keeps it simple. Read above if you want to know what AWC says their problem rate has been with Cam Lock.


Now your Warp 6, Jack, can't help you there. The unit is, what, 20 years old. The Warp 6 was sold in large quantities to be used with exactly your host. Solid, well built units were shipped to almost all the armed forces. Superseded at first by a newly designed Abraxis in 100% stainless, those units ran for a brief period before going to a 3rd gen in solid titanium.

The 100% titanium Abraxis (wet) weighs a remarkable 3 oz and requires no (repeat NO) recoil management system. I couldn't recommend your can unless it went back for a rebuild, Jack, too many important changes over the decades. I think the Beretta/Abraxis combos are still superb. Always was and remains, the most successful 9mm can ever sold to the armed forces.

..

.

 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I get it now, it sure as hell isn't about anything AWC is or isn't. There is as much solid information on suppression in general and AWC in particular here as I can provide. Some folks you just can't please, I can live with that.</div></div>

No actual mil-std test data was provided. So AWC performance to many remains unquantifiable. Unquantifiable doesn't please a lot of folks. AWC does seem to happily live with that and has for a lot of years. I'm sure they own a sound meter. They aren't a small company in the silencer industry. They have in the past sold silencers to the military and the military does test silencers with sound meters. That kind of information is what the military considers to be solid information.

The silencers may be outstanding- people would love to know how outstanding they are.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

AWC seems to have been around a very long time, as this thread and research have now taught me. People apparently buy them without your scientific experiments. I assume b/c of a long well established reputation. However, I’m sure you could find an AWC and test it and let us know. AWC did a pretty good job of explaining why sound meters don't tell the whole story.

I'm sure I could easily be schooled on suppressors, as I am a newb to the world of suppressors. However, you are coming across as an envious sales hack at the moment.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Addicted</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AWC seems to have been around a very long time, as this thread and research have now taught me. People apparently buy them without your scientific experiments. I assume b/c of a long well established reputation. However, I’m sure you could find an AWC and test it and let us know. AWC did a pretty good job of explaining why sound meters don't tell the whole story.

I'm sure I could easily be schooled on suppressors, as I am a newb to the world of suppressors. However, you are coming across as an envious sales hack at the moment.
</div></div>

You must be the kind of person that likes to buy a car without knowing what its fuel economy is, or how many horsepower its engine generates or other various nuisances surrounding it.

I have 13 years experience with silencers. My opinion is that there performance is as measurable as that of a flashlight or an engine. I may be wrong but someone would have to actual prove that to me by showing me two silencers that meter the same SPL and sound different enough to justify the argument that the sound meter doesn't measure sound accurately and that isn't going to happen in typed words over the internet.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

.

HPLLC, no, what he is saying is that he won't run out and buy a car just because the oil pressure gauge says the engine has lubrication. dB = pressure only. Yes it can be measured, just not by dB alone. Your flashlight? Brightness, battery life, physical strength of unit, life of bulb, appropriateness of materials employed, weight, length, etc., etc. A flashlight that is really, really, really bright and lasts 5 minutes, or takes 8 hours to recharge?

They have tested for 30 years, they have tested more than anybody. They also came to understand four things.

1. dB is a pressure measurement.
2. dB is not a duration measurement
3. dB is not a frequency measurement.
4. Human ears <span style="font-weight: bold">do not</span> hear sounds like dB meters.

They also watched as some "testing" resources were actually owned and run by individual suppressor companies. They also watched as black box suppressor were publicly "tested" and never released, they also watched as submitted suppressors from some companies were not the "for sale" models. They are watching now as pistol suppressors grow like Pinocchio noses reaching almost 9" now in the dB dance, or as suppressor internals have to be swapped out because the delivered goods were not the goods sold. As Mac stated, its an ugly game.

This says it all:

"Sound Measurements

Few firms have been making suppressors and measuring the results as long as AWC Systems Technology. We have measured so much, and for so long that over the last 30 years the companies who make measuring equipment have sought us out so that their own products could be improved. As such, we have seen it all when it comes to the ugly game of whose suppressor does what, when and how. We want you to own the best suppressors in the world and we strongly and verifiable believe those are made by AWC.

If for one moment we felt that publishing dB results gave any meaningful measure of how to judge one suppressor from another we would still be doing what we did for decades, publish numbers. But, we do not publish dB data, nor do we apologize for this policy. We, ourselves, have been frequently deceived by our own dB data. That which we found to meter wonderfully underperformed in the field, in use, because of one important and inescapable fact about noise, It's so important, we'll set it off by itself:

<span style="font-weight: bold">The problem with decibel readings is that it expresses a pressure level of sound, and gives no insight as to the "quality" or frequency of the sound. </span>

If we, the "experts", can be deceived users are at great risk of being deceived. That deception is now a crucial part of some of our competitors marketing campaigns. Far too often we have seen cases where the very best meter claimed that device "A" had a lower reading than device "B". However, observers unanimously agreed that device "B" sounded significantly quieter in all respects. In other words, the dB reading was the least accurate way to judge the true, and more importantly, applied use of a particular design. That leads us to another inescapable truth, again, important enough to be set off by itself:

We at AWC, do consider data produced by our meters, but we are more interested in how the device sounds in actual use as perceived by the parties who use them. The sound meter's opinion is considered, but it doesn't get the final word on what we build. AWC maintains extremely close contact with our clients, more so than any other suppressor company over the last 30 years. We rely on our own and our clients experience, intelligence and field requirements for the final design attributes. As a result, the bottom line is that we build the strongest, most compact, and highly effective units on planet Earth, and the vast majority of our customers remain with us for their lifetimes.

We strive to design our suppressors so that the shot fired sounds "unlike" or "not characteristic" of firearm noise. We are aware of several units produced by other companies that do, according to the meter, produce less noise than our device of similar nature. However, when these devices are compared in real world live fire tests our devices are noticeably more pleasant to the human ear. Several well known silencer aficionados have observed these tests and agree with our attitude toward the decibel. They say our suppressors have the "sweet sound".

If you still need more proof, consider this. A good example of this "deception" is the comparison of sound between a .308 caliber rifle and a .300 WIN MAG rifle. <span style="font-weight: bold">The meter will tell us that both rifles produce the same decibel level of noise. Upon firing these rifles, however, all would agree that the .300 WIN MAG sounds much louder. What the decibel meter doesn't tell us is that although both rifles produce the same peak sound pressure level (SPL), the .300 WIN MAG holds its peak duration longer. In other words the .300 WIN MAG sound remains at full value longer and IS louder while the .308 goes to peak and falls off more quickly. dB meters fail in this, and other regards.</span>

Our experience has been that a few unprincipled manufacturers have published false data in order to appear "competitive. We have seen instances of an 8 year old suppressor from one manufacturer being tested against a can so new, that the firm hasn't figured out how to manufacture it yet in quantity. In short, if you're being told that the main selling point of a suppressor is its decibel readings, beware! We, at AWC have gotten our balance on the issue of dB metering and we believe that you, the client, hopefully our client, will serve yourself well by following our lead on this topic."

http://www.awcsystech.com/about/suppressor-information/

Hear as many cans as you can, from everybody.

 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

Why can't we all agree to disagree? This is getting stupid already.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

RT, You really don't sound like a enthusiastic customer but more like a passionate employee. BTW fill out your profile.

Also I love the slams against other companies. Why attack others if your just a AWC fan and not a involved party of AWC?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">suppressor internals have to be swapped out because the delivered goods were not the goods sold</div></div>
is this referring to the AAC Prodigy fiasco?

Also if AWC does consult with the companies creating the metering equipment, why haven't they or any of the silencer companies gone to a software based RTA meter that could read out SPL frequency and duration.

I was very involved in the car audio scene back when we were just breaking into the 170's DB and special purpose mic's were being developed to accurately read those pressures. I have also used RTA's for SQ comps and I could see the benefit to that equipment for metering these cans in the industry. I do agree with you RT on the statement that DB's isn't everything, but IMO it is something that if I had the right kind of intel(SPL, Frequencies, and Duration) would be something I considered strongly along with other factors.
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slimguns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why can't we all agree to disagree? This is getting stupid already. </div></div>
Either that or just bust out the rulers and get this over with....
 
Re: AWC? Any love out there?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okent</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5 weeks and no word from AWC </div></div>
Chris told me to expect a 2-3 week turnaround on mine. I figure it took almost a week to get there, and most likely near a week to get back, so that would put me in the 4-5 week range. I am on week two now.
 
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