Night Vision Back Up NV Hog Pistol

SkyPup

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Jun 5, 2012
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I have an old SIG 229 in .357SIG that is a great pistol but does not have the trigger rail for lasers.

I installed a Crimson Trace 0.7mW IR Laser and an internal guide rod LaserMax Red Laser as a backup for our hog hunting adventures.

It is loaded with 15 rounds of CorBon 125 grain 1,450fps 585 pounds of lead and rests in a Galco Miami Vice holster with two spare mags

SIG%20229%20CR%20IR.jpg


GALCO%20Miami%20Vice.jpg


Freakin' Awesome handgun!
 

SkyPup

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Then again, with that intimidating shirt on, whose gonna run their mouth at u? Lol. Jk man.

Gotta watch out for those killer Scottish Terriers too....

The CR lasers are the special Mil-Spec IR laser grips that are waterproof. Crimson Trace Model LG-429M:

LG-429M Laser Sight for Sig Sauer P228/P229 series Front Activation Lasergrips MIL-STD Waterproof - [url]www.CrimsonTrace-Laser.com/JD ARMS,LLC.[/url]

They come in either visible 5mW Red or IR 0.7mW.

As Da Man said, if I get a Versace sportcoat and a colored T-shirt, I'll be the best dressed hog hunter in the Florida swamps!
 
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Victor-TNVC

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  • Aug 5, 2007
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    Gotta watch out for those killer Scottish Terriers too....

    The CR lasers are the special Mil-Spec IR laser grips that are waterproof. Crimson Trace Model LG-429M:

    LG-429M Laser Sight for Sig Sauer P228/P229 series Front Activation Lasergrips MIL-STD Waterproof - [url]www.CrimsonTrace-Laser.com/JD ARMS,LLC.[/url]

    They come in either visible 5mW Red or IR 0.7mW.

    As Da Man said, if I get a Versace sportcoat and a colored T-shirt, I'll be the best dressed hog hunter in the Florida swamps!

    LoL, sounds like a new sig line!

    Vic
     

    softcock

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  • Mar 24, 2006
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    ..." I installed a Crimson Trace 0.7mW IR Laser and an internal guide rod LaserMax Red Laser as a backup for our hog hunting adventures.

    It is loaded with 15 rounds of CorBon 125 grain 1,450fps 585 pounds of lead and rests in a Galco Miami Vice holster with two spare mags ".
    -
    -
    Wow.. 1450 vel. is rockin & snappy.
    Would be interested to see what the hit & if there is pass-thru or big expansion & what kind wound channel & exit those pop on close quarters.

    Hey you got much dirty Bloom with that IR on close-up targets ?
    .
     

    SkyPup

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    It does have some major penetration, one hog I shot at about 40 feet had his spinal column bifurcated right behind the head and dropped dead in his tracks, another one penetrated the left shoulder and blasted out the thoracic cavity. I was shocked at the damage.

    There is normal 0.7mW IR bloom at close range, but the center of the bloom is what I use to pull the trigger.
     

    mexicanmatch

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    I do not really like revolvers so i carry an H&K USP 45 ACP encase it is needed for backup on a hog hunt. I like it and i know what the round can do.But is it enough to set a charging pig on it's ass when and if the time ever comes. I am open to all suggestions. Thank you. MM
     

    chas013

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    I've shot two hogs running at me because the light I was holding blinded them and they were running in the light. One was hit 4 out of six shots at between 20 yds and 2 yards before he changed direction he died but not just then about 50 yards away. The other was only hit twice and he ran out of sight to be found the next day following the buzzards. I have never been charged by a wounded or un-wounded pig but I'm sure if I hunt them long enough I might. I have walked through some on the way back to my truck in the dark from a stand. I started hunting pigs in 1990 and killed my biggest boar as the very first one. He is mounted. Luckily he got hit in the heart at a downward angle with a 308 reload with 110 grn carbine bullets that I was using on whitetails. After looking for several more 200+ pigs shot behind the shoulder I switched to a 7mm mag and that helped but I quickly learned any thing from 223 to 7mm08 worked great if you just shoot them somewhere in the head or neck. I have shot a nice buck I have mounted with a 45acp with a black talon pd round. It didn't exit and he was only about 15 feet from me. Too close to stick the rifle barrel out the stand window. He didn't go far but the round didn't exit. Personally I would expect more penetration from a slower moving heavy pistol round, ie the 45 long colt or the 44 special, than a fast moving light one.
     
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    Ident

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    Skypup,

    A word of caution- the CT Rail Master and other .7mW IR pointers can and have done damage to I-squared devices in pistol-close range situations. We have a fix for this- PM me if you need details. On the flip side, please PM me anyways and let me know where I can get that shirt. Did you get a free bowl of soup when they gave it you?

    :cool:
     
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    SkyPup

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    My wife shows our Scottish Terriers on the National Show Circuit, so I have more than enough Scottish Terrier memorabilia!

    So, far the IR lasers have worked great as I've always got my PVS-14 on my Team Wendy EXFIL at night when we are out and about.

    I think there is a slim chance of me shining a laser into anyone's NV optics since the laser is coming out a loaded weapon.

    Being in the eye business, we treat our visible and IR lasers like loaded weapons to begin with anyhow....no one goes out with us without a lecture on proper eye safety from me. There have been a few that don't receive any further invites though.
     

    Ident

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    Sorry if I wan't clear- not damage to users eyes or other peoples NVG's. The .7mW pointers in general (I really shouldn't say just Crimson Trace) are powerful enough to damage (depending on the target and distance) the shooter own NVG's from back reflection of the laser. This isn't anything special or different than other devices using .7mW IR laser its just for pistol use the range is almost always very short and longer periods of use vs. using a .7mW device on a rifle is only occasionally short distances for short periods. i.e. I'm sure you have put your rifle pointer on a downed pig for an instant to finish him off- at pretty much point blank range. No big deal, no damage done- we do it all the time. But when people started using these newer pistol IR lasers- firing repeatedly at steel target, shoot house CQB work, training classes, a lot of people were seeing a lot of blooming, then history burns- temporary damage but still unhealthy for the tube- Pete at I2 worked with a couple companies to get the output reduced but in the end there was some technical hurdles and it was easier to design a filter for the pistol units. I'm not say that if you use one of these with your pistol its going to take out the tube but they are on the very high end of you would be safe to use with a pistol. It won't take much to ruin a tube using them.
     

    SkyPup

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    Ident, thanks for making me aware of that, I had not thought of that.

    We use our pistol IR lasers so little that I don't think it will become a problem. They are not our main targeting devices and are only available for backup or coup de grace.

    They are only turned on for a short periods of time to finish off a hog (98% of my hogs are DOA!) and our night use of the pistol IR lasers are very limited and minimized to special purposes. Even my rifle IR lasers are only turned on for a short quick shot and all three of them have their output around 0.1mW with the neutral density filters to diminish blooming.

    I can see where a training class or target practice could potentially be a problem with intense night shooting for extended periods of time.

    One thing is for sure, blooming is bad for hunting!
     

    clasky

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    Utilizing IR lasers at close or long range will have no more damaging effect on current I2 tubes than any other light source. That is to say, there is no permanent damage. If there was damage being done when lasers were used up close, the military would not be using them. The autogated systems in current production tubes will protect the tube and the user's eye(s) from damage. Lasers can produce faint burn-in on tubes during use, but this is a completely temporary condition that will eventually go away during normal use or can be immediately remedied by putting a fresh battery in the system, turning it on with the lens cover in place, placing it in a show box and keeping it in a drawer or closet overnight. The burn in image will burn out of the tube. No permanent damage is done to the tube or system, nor is the tube life diminished.

    A 0.7mW laser is nothing compared to the full power IR lasers used in combat that range from 5-200mW and are employed at all ranges. For instance, most unit SOP's are to turn the laser on and leave it on during actions on the objective. This is because contact (often close) is expected. The operation usually moves at a quick enough pace to not worry about the possibility of enemy NVG's. The biggest thing you have to worry about in this scenario is impact bloom on close surfaces and targets. However, the trick around that is to utilize the infrared illuminator at the same time to fill the image and wash out the bloom. It's the same principal as defeating an enemy who is shining a flashlight in your direction: add more light to diminish his. But, either way, using a laser is no different than introducing a light to the scene while under goggles.

    We utilize night vision, lights, and lasers together all the time during searches. No permanent damage.
     

    Ident

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    Utilizing IR lasers at close or long range will have no more damaging effect on current I2 tubes than any other light source. That is to say, there is no permanent damage. If there was damage being done when lasers were used up close, the military would not be using them. The autogated systems in current production tubes will protect the tube and the user's eye(s) from damage. Lasers can produce faint burn-in on tubes during use, but this is a completely temporary condition that will eventually go away during normal use or can be immediately remedied by putting a fresh battery in the system, turning it on with the lens cover in place, placing it in a show box and keeping it in a drawer or closet overnight. The burn in image will burn out of the tube. No permanent damage is done to the tube or system, nor is the tube life diminished.

    A 0.7mW laser is nothing compared to the full power IR lasers used in combat that range from 5-200mW and are employed at all ranges. For instance, most unit SOP's are to turn the laser on and leave it on during actions on the objective. This is because contact (often close) is expected. The operation usually moves at a quick enough pace to not worry about the possibility of enemy NVG's. The biggest thing you have to worry about in this scenario is impact bloom on close surfaces and targets. However, the trick around that is to utilize the infrared illuminator at the same time to fill the image and wash out the bloom. It's the same principal as defeating an enemy who is shining a flashlight in your direction: add more light to diminish his. But, either way, using a laser is no different than introducing a light to the scene while under goggles.

    We utilize night vision, lights, and lasers together all the time during searches. No permanent damage.

    Chip,

    I really don't know were to start. I'll leave the 'Tier 1' training methodology to you and your classes because I just simply use the stuff 3 or 4 nights a week, just about every week. But it seems to me that your post is attempting to counter what I wrote in my above post. I really try hard to give good technical advice on this forum because I care about the gear that people own on this forum regardless of where they bought it- you, me some dude on eBay. What I don't appreciate is you jumping in this thread and posting something that is not only wrong but bad advice to users here, simply because we both sell these and I sell a version that you do not.

    I hate coming in here and talking on the very technical side because I think people come in here to learn about night vision products, not get a long lecture on image tube design but i'm going to do some training for you personally Chip. Get yer Big Chief Tablet and Crayon out so you can take some notes. Feel free to use this info later with all the DevGru guys in your classes...

    "Utilizing IR lasers at close or long range will have no more damaging effect on current I2 tubes than any other light source. That is to say, there is no permanent damage. If there was damage being done when lasers were used up close, the military would not be using them."
    Its a bright light source Chip, regardless of wavelength. That's bad, Chip. I have hundreds of tubes here with PERMANENT DAMAGE. They are ruined. Many of these are damaged from not direct laser strikes but from reflected coherent light from IR lasers. My countries armed forces destroy tubes every day in this fashion, the only difference between them and civilians is they get new ones issued to them for free.

    "The autogated systems in current production tubes will protect the tube and the user's eye(s) from damage"
    Even if the autogated circuit in a tube is operating at full duty cycle it will not protect the photocathode from prolonged exposure to intense direct light sources. Stop telling people it will be ok because it won't. Eye protection? What do you even mean here? The user's exposure has nothing to do with autogating protection. Eye exposure is limited because there is a physical object blocking the reflected laser light. An Acme brick mounted to a Wilcox helmet mount has the same protection.

    "Lasers can produce faint burn-in on tubes during use, but this is a completely temporary condition that will eventually go away during normal use or can be immediately remedied by putting a fresh battery in the system, turning it on with the lens cover in place, placing it in a show box and keeping it in a drawer or closet overnight. The burn in image will burn out of the tube. No permanent damage is done to the tube or system, nor is the tube life diminished. "
    The damage you are talking about is what we call a light burn. This occurs because you have disrupted the delicate cesium-oxygen activated layer of the photocathode. If the exposure is severe even in short duration, it will permanently damage this layer. When a tube is made there is a certain, limited amount of extra cesium left in the tube in order to maintain the balance of this layer. When you disrupt the layer with a bright light source the tube can recover from this damage by trying to run in a zero light condition like you described but the results are entirely based on the amount of damage and the amount of remaining cesium left to redistribute. It does affect the life of the tube, absolutely. Don't tell users that its fine- this is a last ditch effort to recover from a burn. MCP channel depletion is different from this and very quick exposure to light sources affect the tube differently- these will return to normal without doing anything, it can last from seconds to minutes and are considered normal (albeit hard) operation- many times you will see this when you power up a tube while looking at light sources in the distance (streaking)

    "A 0.7mW laser is nothing compared to the full power IR lasers used in combat that range from 5-200mW and are employed at all ranges. For instance, most unit SOP's are to turn the laser on and leave it on during actions on the objective. This is because contact (often close) is expected. The operation usually moves at a quick enough pace to not worry about the possibility of enemy NVG's. The biggest thing you have to worry about in this scenario is impact bloom on close surfaces and targets. However, the trick around that is to utilize the infrared illuminator at the same time to fill the image and wash out the bloom. It's the same principal as defeating an enemy who is shining a flashlight in your direction: add more light to diminish his. But, either way, using a laser is no different than introducing a light to the scene while under goggles."
    Manufacturers simply use the .7mW output because its the maximum the FDA will allow as eye safe. 5,mW,50mW and 200mW lasers are for long range engagement, target identification and airstrike support. These have nothing to do with a pistol, pistol range or this thread. Depending on the target a .7mW IR laser source can be much too intense which is why you are teaching "the tip of the spear" over there to mask blooming with the damn illuminator. This 'trick' also tends to degrade the overall resolution in a lot of applications. The pistol lasers we are talking about in this thread don't even have illuminators Chip so again WTF is this even written here? Blooming is controlled buy using the proper light source on the target which is why we sell the proper laser for pistol work ranges. I wish they used a lower power laser but the couldn't do it with the laser modules they had spec'd so here we are. No one is shooting 150m with a pistol unless its a really bad day but your own damn website says a .7mW IR laser is used out to 250 yards! Who would think a 250m laser is going to work great at 3m? It doesn't, it blooms out, Chip.

    This is applicable to rifle lasers too- for instance the OD filter on the PEQ-15 is used to augment the output of the laser pointer depending on range and target. Instead of having simply hi and low output you now have low-low, low-high, high-low and high-high. Now you can go from CQB in a structure to pointing targets out to air support. All with out blooming or risking damage to NVG's.


    "We utilize night vision, lights, and lasers together all the time during searches. No permanent damage."
    Hope the readers here experience the same, but I fear they won't with this kind of posts from the NV experts. That's all I got, better get back to training Delta, Chip.
     
    Last edited:

    Eric-TNVC

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    Chip,

    I really don't know were to start. I'll leave the 'Tier 1' training methodology to you and your classes because I just simply use the stuff 3 or 4 nights a week, just about every week. But it seems to me that your post is attempting to counter what I wrote in my above post. I really try hard to give good technical advice on this forum because I care about the gear that people own on this forum regardless of where they bought it- you, me some dude on eBay. What I don't appreciate is you jumping in this thread and posting something that is not only wrong but bad advice to users here, simply because we both sell these and I sell a version that you do not.

    I hate coming in here and talking on the very technical side because I think people come in here to learn about night vision products, not get a long lecture on image tube design but i'm going to do some training for you personally Chip. Get yer Big Chief Tablet and Crayon out so you can take some notes. Feel free to use this info later with all the DevGru guys in your classes...

    "Utilizing IR lasers at close or long range will have no more damaging effect on current I2 tubes than any other light source. That is to say, there is no permanent damage. If there was damage being done when lasers were used up close, the military would not be using them."
    Its a bright light source Chip, regardless of wavelength. That's bad, Chip. I have hundreds of tubes here with PERMANENT DAMAGE. They are ruined. Many of these are damaged from not direct laser strikes but from reflected coherent light from IR lasers. My countries armed forces destroy tubes every day in this fashion, the only difference between them and civilians is they get new ones issued to them for free.

    "The autogated systems in current production tubes will protect the tube and the user's eye(s) from damage"
    Even if the autogated circuit in a tube is operating at full duty cycle it will not protect the photocathode from prolonged exposure to intense direct light sources. Stop telling people it will be ok because it won't. Eye protection? What do you even mean here? The user's exposure has nothing to do with autogating protection. Eye exposure is limited because there is a physical object blocking the reflected laser light. An Acme brick mounted to a Wilcox helmet mount has the same protection.

    "Lasers can produce faint burn-in on tubes during use, but this is a completely temporary condition that will eventually go away during normal use or can be immediately remedied by putting a fresh battery in the system, turning it on with the lens cover in place, placing it in a show box and keeping it in a drawer or closet overnight. The burn in image will burn out of the tube. No permanent damage is done to the tube or system, nor is the tube life diminished. "
    The damage you are talking about is what we call a light burn. This occurs because you have disrupted the delicate cesium-oxygen activated layer of the photocathode. If the exposure is severe even in short duration, it will permanently damage this layer. When a tube is made there is a certain, limited amount of extra cesium left in the tube in order to maintain the balance of this layer. When you disrupt the layer with a bright light source the tube can recover from this damage by trying to run in a zero light condition like you described but the results are entirely based on the amount of damage and the amount of remaining cesium left to redistribute. It does affect the life of the tube, absolutely. Don't tell users that its fine- this is a last ditch effort to recover from a burn. MCP channel depletion is different from this and very quick exposure to light sources affect the tube differently- these will return to normal without doing anything, it can last from seconds to minutes and are considered normal (albeit hard) operation- many times you will see this when you power up a tube while looking at light sources in the distance (streaking)

    "A 0.7mW laser is nothing compared to the full power IR lasers used in combat that range from 5-200mW and are employed at all ranges. For instance, most unit SOP's are to turn the laser on and leave it on during actions on the objective. This is because contact (often close) is expected. The operation usually moves at a quick enough pace to not worry about the possibility of enemy NVG's. The biggest thing you have to worry about in this scenario is impact bloom on close surfaces and targets. However, the trick around that is to utilize the infrared illuminator at the same time to fill the image and wash out the bloom. It's the same principal as defeating an enemy who is shining a flashlight in your direction: add more light to diminish his. But, either way, using a laser is no different than introducing a light to the scene while under goggles."
    Manufacturers simply use the .7mW output because its the maximum the FDA will allow as eye safe. 5,mW,50mW and 200mW lasers are for long range engagement, target identification and airstrike support. These have nothing to do with a pistol, pistol range or this thread. Depending on the target a .7mW IR laser source can be much too intense which is why you are teaching "the tip of the spear" over there to mask blooming with the damn illuminator. This 'trick' also tends to degrade the overall resolution in a lot of applications. The pistol lasers we are talking about in this thread don't even have illuminators Chip so again WTF is this even written here? Blooming is controlled buy using the proper light source on the target which is why we sell the proper laser for pistol work ranges. I wish they used a lower power laser but the couldn't do it with the laser modules they had spec'd so here we are. No one is shooting 150m with a pistol unless its a really bad day but your own damn website says a .7mW IR laser is used out to 250 yards! Who would think a 250m laser is going to work great at 3m? It doesn't, it blooms out, Chip.

    This is applicable to rifle lasers too- for instance the OD filter on the PEQ-15 is used to augment the output of the laser pointer depending on range and target. Instead of having simply hi and low output you now have low-low, low-high, high-low and high-high. Now you can go from CQB in a structure to pointing targets out to air support. All with out blooming or risking damage to NVG's.


    "We utilize night vision, lights, and lasers together all the time during searches. No permanent damage."
    Hope the readers here experience the same, but I fear they won't with this kind of posts from the NV experts. That's all I got, better get back to training Delta, Chip.



    I don't need to come in here to fight anyone else's battle but obviously, myself and the likes of TNVC does not agree with the above post(s). However, it is TNVC's policy to not respond when posts like this are made directly toward our company, or our staff as individuals. Inflammatory, derogatory or harshly opinionated posts against our employees credibility or character will not be addressed by this staff. TNVC has built it's reputation on a long history of military service, law enforcement service, and use in the civilian market. We have grown our customer base accordingly, and our customers are happy with the information and the products we provide them. While you are entitled to you opinion, we are going to stick to ours. We will not be involved in pissing contests over the internet on topics as trivial as this.
     

    SkyPup

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    I do have IR LED 3,400mW flashlight on my EXFIL helmet when using my CT IR SIG and it definitely subdues the bloom effect at short ranges, in fact, I have to turn it on low output to avoid having a complete "white out" effect on the ground in front of me.

    As you can see here, an IR LED is major bright!

    Torch%20Pro%20Whiteout.jpg


    Night%20IR%20200%20Yards.jpg
     
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    shooter6.5

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    Whew, I do not know about Lasers but I will match my weapons abilities against anyone--and I do know this

    That is a damn nice pistol you have there Skypup. That sig .357 round is a great round.
     

    Strykervet

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  • Jun 5, 2011
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    And this is why I went with TNVC.

    Never had better CS either, from any company ever, period (not many places take back $900 in gear no questions asked and send the replacement priority mail with a box and label to ship it back in --AFTER the manufacturer left me high and dry). Vic and Clasky and the whole gang are stellar guys too. Had more to say, but why? You can call them and they'll give you good info without selling you on anything at all and they know way more about all of this than I do. BTW, never burned nor seen a set burned, but we sure as shit busted up a lot of 'em. We broke so damn many J arms the market couldn't keep up by '04 and they changed 'em from one that snapped to one that flexed (they were supposed to break so as not to damage the set, but we broke too damn many). Duct tape was the Mk. 2 mount, and the lasers we used were full power PEQ2A's (some guys had the blue blocks on). Some folks did some amazingly stupid shit with 'em too. These things were designed for infantrymen who can break an anvil with a rubber mallet. Just treat the set well and know that anything too bright for 'em will likely render 'em not too useful in the meantime. An illuminator does help, and I seldom use the laser by itself, it's usually on dual and sometimes with an LED illuminator in tandem.

    Personally, I'd like to see a Surefire adj. bezel white/IR light with an IR laser. Or other high quality setups like that with .7mW output.
     

    redirt78

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    I was running an XD 45 but recently started carrying a Glock 20. I'm pretty sure the 10mm is a better backup hog hunting round than 45 but I haven't had to use either one so far for a charging hog. We usually use weapon mounted NV and backup pistols with white lights. No one I hunt with runs head mounted NV. I wouldn't mind trying it though, looks like running it with IR lasers would be a good way to go.
     

    chas013

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    That's the good thing about forums. You hear from past experience from real users. I'm not sure I will ever be able to justify the really neat high dollar stuff spoken of on this forum. I could if I gave up my other toys but hunting at night is a very small part of my life and I don't have 20 years to advance my expertise. If I was a dealer that would help of course. I am a old electronics and mechanical guy and the warnings seem logical and I would probably try to heed them if they applied to my gear. I use old stuff and that stuff probably is easier to tear up. I wish now the 4k invested in a air rifle and it's associated stuff was spent on nv though. I do use expensive hunting tools but not for night hunting. I know hogs are really blind at night especially at distance and real easy to get up on. I have all I can shoot and more than I can eat, in the daytime. I do believe when you disrupt them at night they go away for awhile. We just planted our food plots it will be real discouraging to see them rooted up. In my case the old fashioned way, a spotlight and a semi auto will work good.
     

    shoots100

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    I do not really like revolvers so i carry an H&K USP 45 ACP encase it is needed for backup on a hog hunt. I like it and i know what the round can do.But is it enough to set a charging pig on it's ass when and if the time ever comes. I am open to all suggestions. Thank you. MM
    The perfect backup is a Calico. 50 rounds of 9mm hp will either kill it,or fill it full of lead till it can't run anymore.
     

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