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Bad long range calibers

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Minuteman
Oct 31, 2009
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I am new to the Long Range sport, and of course many of the questions we have (greenhorns) are the same. I realized recently that I had this idea that there were cartridges "designed" for LR shooting, and cartridges that weren't and if I could find out which were the good cartridges I would be on my way.

I've come to realize that a lot of newbies kind of walk around with the same idea, and that propels us to ask questions like "what is the best caliber for xyz", which seems to frustrate veterans somewhat, prompting responses like "depends, what are you trying to do" and the awkward dance goes on. I am coming to understand that there aren't magic bullets for this so much (outside of a 338 lapua), and that causes as many problems as solutions.

I am learning that the previous question is not productive, BUT it occurred to me that by turning that around we can still get some value communicated to us greenhorns.

And that would be not what calibers are GOOD for LR shooting, but what calibers in your experience are BAD for LR shooting (obviously lever gun rounds are not going to be fun, we can leave those out), what should we avoid.

I've noticed that there are many with opinions on "bad calibers", and thinking about that led me to believe that it could really help some of us as far as using a process of elimination approach to choosing a gun.

In your experience what are some calibers to avoid in LR shooting, and please elaborate a little bit if you don't mind.
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

What's funny is there is a guy here recommending it. As practice of course.
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

This is actually a very easy question. Least ways seems to be.
First you find out what calibers holds the 1000 yard record for conventional prone shooting. Last three times it was set was done with 300 Win Mag. What calibers win the Wimbledon/Leech with regular efficiency? 6.5/284.
Next what caliber was outlawed in the Palma Trophy Match at Camp Perry after it won two consecutive years running. 30.06
What caliber holds the Palma Trophy Match record with a possible score? 308.
For closer ranges what caliber holds the 100 shot course records 200-600 yards and what caliber held it for 40 years?(answer coming) What caliber replaced it? 260 Rem.
What caliber held the 80 Shot Regional Course Record? 223 and I think 6MM Tubb? What caliber broke it this year? 260 Remington. Note: the 80 shot and 100 shot records are held by the same little young lady.

What caliber was damn close to taking it. 308 almost took it fired by Gary Anderson in 70s.

For 300 Meter shooting what is the most popular winning calibers
6 PPC and 6BR.
Performance counts, opinions are just opinions. If it doesn't hold records and doesn't win consistantly then............

If you want to compete in NRA competition and only buy one rifle it needs to be 308 Win caliber. This will get you to 1000 in all catagories. Any rifle irons and scope, match rifle and Palma Rifle.
If I were building a 1000 yard rifle today it would be 6.5/284.first choice, 30.06 second choice and 300 Win Mag third choice followed by 30/338 Mag and 7MM Rem Mag. Might even consider 7.5 Swiss but bolt face could be a problem, maybe not though.

There is no one caliber that is going to make you a winner without reliable fire control devices, load technique, barrel quality and most importantly skill from experience.

Shooting is like the NASCAR circuit. If Ford wins, folks buy Fords thinking they are fast but if you take a close looksee of a NASCAR set us there is no semblance of what you see inside as compared to the showroom. Last I heard the only factory thing many of them had was the hood.
The engine surely isn't, the fuel isn't, tranny is not, nor the rear end, springs, suspension etc. The motor oil in many is Mobil 1 and there is 80 quarts of that in the tank.
If I were you I would get a 308 and that will make you dangerous to 1000 yards and not worry about anything else right now.
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

To really explore this we need a definition of long range, accuracy requirements and terminal performance needed.

I shoot my 243 AI with 80 gr. FB bullets past 800 yds. on Rochchucks, my mile gun is a 338 Lapua Imp shooting 300's. I hold the NBRSA Heavy gun 1K yd small group record shooting FB 187 gr. 30 cal. That bullet also holds the IBS Hvy Gun small grouprecord. A very accurate bullet but not what I would use if I was out playing in the sand box.

What is long range?

Short range 400 yds. and in?
Intermediate 400-800yds ?
Long range 800- 1200 yds ?
Extreme long range past 1000 yds.



I have over 140 chamber reamers here and I get requests all the time for off the wall chamberings. I ask the customer to pick a bullet and speed and I'll tell them the reamers I have that will meet their requirements. Almost to a customer they will pick one I have already over reinventing the wheel.

Here's your questions that need to be answered in this order.
Pick your distance, look at <span style="font-weight: bold">accurate</span> bullets availalbe with a BC high enough to get the job done, decide on the velocity needed, look for good quality brass then pick your cartridge.
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

slow twist barrels are bad for long range. Get a fast twist barrel and a heavy bullet with a high BC and almost all calibers will be a very capable long range rifle
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

Dave;

Thank you for taking an interest in Snipers' Hide.

I'm considering using the new .30 Rem AR (.30RAR) in a 22" 1:10" barrel with 125 NOS BT's or 135SMK's for 200yd competitive shooting. Is this a reasonable selection for such an application?

Greg
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

I'm not sure their is a "bad" choice for a long range round , you can soot way out with some realy slow rounds comonly used in lever actions. Their are some guys shooting out to a mile with big black powder cartriges like the 45-70 , 45-120 , 50-140 and so on so it can be done you jst have to learn the bullets flight path.

Shooting realy fast rounds with realy high BC bullets just makes things ALOT easier.

I have a 30" 1-9 twist 5R barrel here that I'm planning to build a 30-338 Lapua on one day , specificaly to shoot some custom aluminum tipped bullets in the .800 BC range weighting 210-220grs , I figure that BC being launched at 3000+ fps should be very flat shooting.

But I have seen a 7mm-300WSM shoot to a mile with pretty impressive results using a 180gr Berger VLD
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

Also depends on wether your shooting at paper or hunting. What kind of recoil are you willing to take.

I think the 7WSM or 7mm-270WSM is the current go-to as it can shoot flatter than the 338LM, has less recoil, pretty good energy if you want to go hunting and can fit in a short action (single-shot).
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

Think bullet/twist/chambering/bbl length, roughly in that order.

Lot's of good LR bullets in 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, .308", .338". Just make sure you have the barrel twisted to accomodate the high BC bullets.

.257" and .277" are a little thin on LR bullet choices.
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is actually a very easy question. Least ways seems to be.
First you find out what calibers holds the 1000 yard record for conventional prone shooting. Last three times it was set was done with 300 Win Mag. What calibers win the Wimbledon/Leech with regular efficiency? 6.5/284.
Next what caliber was outlawed in the Palma Trophy Match at Camp Perry after it won two consecutive years running. 30.06
What caliber holds the Palma Trophy Match record with a possible score? 308.
For closer ranges what caliber holds the 100 shot course records 200-600 yards and what caliber held it for 40 years?(answer coming) What caliber replaced it? 260 Rem.
What caliber held the 80 Shot Regional Course Record? 223 and I think 6MM Tubb? What caliber broke it this year? 260 Remington. Note: the 80 shot and 100 shot records are held by the same little young lady.

What caliber was damn close to taking it. 308 almost took it fired by Gary Anderson in 70s.

For 300 Meter shooting what is the most popular winning calibers
6 PPC and 6BR.
Performance counts, opinions are just opinions. If it doesn't hold records and doesn't win consistantly then............

If you want to compete in NRA competition and only buy one rifle it needs to be 308 Win caliber. This will get you to 1000 in all catagories. Any rifle irons and scope, match rifle and Palma Rifle.
If I were building a 1000 yard rifle today it would be 6.5/284.first choice, 30.06 second choice and 300 Win Mag third choice followed by 30/338 Mag and 7MM Rem Mag. Might even consider 7.5 Swiss but bolt face could be a problem, maybe not though.

There is no one caliber that is going to make you a winner without reliable fire control devices, load technique, barrel quality and most importantly skill from experience.

Shooting is like the NASCAR circuit. If Ford wins, folks buy Fords thinking they are fast but if you take a close looksee of a NASCAR set us there is no semblance of what you see inside as compared to the showroom. Last I heard the only factory thing many of them had was the hood.
The engine surely isn't, the fuel isn't, tranny is not, nor the rear end, springs, suspension etc. The motor oil in many is Mobil 1 and there is 80 quarts of that in the tank.
If I were you I would get a 308 and that will make you dangerous to 1000 yards and not worry about anything else right now. </div></div>
Excellent post.
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To really explore this we need a definition of long range, accuracy requirements and terminal performance needed.

I shoot my 243 AI with 80 gr. FB bullets past 800 yds. on Rochchucks, my mile gun is a 338 Lapua Imp shooting 300's. I hold the NBRSA Heavy gun 1K yd small group record shooting FB 187 gr. 30 cal. That bullet also holds the IBS Hvy Gun small grouprecord. A very accurate bullet but not what I would use if I was out playing in the sand box.

What is long range?

Short range 400 yds. and in?
Intermediate 400-800yds ?
Long range 800- 1200 yds ?
Extreme long range past 1000 yds.



I have over 140 chamber reamers here and I get requests all the time for off the wall chamberings. I ask the customer to pick a bullet and speed and I'll tell them the reamers I have that will meet their requirements. Almost to a customer they will pick one I have already over reinventing the wheel.

Here's your questions that need to be answered in this order.
Pick your distance, look at <span style="font-weight: bold">accurate</span> bullets availalbe with a BC high enough to get the job done, decide on the velocity needed, look for good quality brass then pick your cartridge. </div></div>
I think I've found my custom builder.
wink.gif
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon Lester</div><div class="ubbcode-body">25-20 sucks at LR </div></div>
Thanks.

Good information from everybody, thanks.
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

<span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'">If the 6.5/,284 is that good (I used to have a .284 Ruger), I wonder what a 6.5/WSM could do?? And what's with the 6.5 Lapua ??

Of course, all mentioned are excellent, but somebody's always working on something new.</span>
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kemosabe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'">If the 6.5/,284 is that good (I used to have a .284 Ruger), I wonder what a 6.5/WSM could do?? And what's with the 6.5 Lapua ??

Of course, all mentioned are excellent, but somebody's always working on something new.</span> </div></div>

Are you referring to 375 Ruger necked down to 7mm?

If so what velocities and bullets,twist,length were you shooting?

Steve
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

The 25 WSSM was kind of a flop.

325 cals and other low BC bullets generally tend to be chambered in poor long range cartridges.

Pick a bullet based off YOUR research, pick a velocity, pick a MAX range as a goal, select appropriate cartridge
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

Where does a 300 WSM fit into the mix. Didn't the AMU win a Top Sniper comp with that cal one year? I was wondering.
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

Outerspace

You wont go wrong with a Tooley built rifle. Dave has built a couple for me and I have been more then pleased with them. Dave is beyond legit, having built longrange and point blank BR rifles as well as some government funded projects. Knows his stuff and knows how to solve problems. Top notch in the eyes of many.
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

You have to start by defining the purpose of your LR shooting. I would pick totally different cartridges for hunting vs target shooting at, say, 800 or 1000 yds. For example a fast 6.5mm may shoot flatter and potentially with less drift than a 30cal like a 300WM, and do so with significantly less recoil, but the 30 is likely going to deliver more energy on target and leave a bigger hole. I'd lean toward a 6 or 6.5mm on targets where .1-.2" in the group size makes a difference but if I'm trying to put a bull elk down before he runs somewhere that retrieval will be complicated I'll take the 30cal magnum every time. If the range gets over 900yds I'd be looking to a 338.

Terminal performance and energy rarely are taken into consideration when the bullet just has to make it through a piece of paper as close to the last one as possible. But when you are hunting, they are near the top of the list.
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

great thread! When I was looking at a long range hitter that I could kill game with (primary purpose) and still get killer accuracy with I chose the 300WM. The only regret I have is the weight of the rifle.

I had it stuck in my head that I really wanted something that I could fire multiple strings through without a big change in MOA or the rifle opening up.....so I went with a Remington Varmint Contour and had it fluted.....now I pack a 12.5lb rifle through the hills of AZ and in all honesty it's not fun.

The next rifle I have built will still be a large caliber but I'll got with a much lighter setup.

One thing is for sure: If it will kill big game it will kill paper and most of the time with great accurcy as long as you don't fear the recoil. There's one brake I recommend....the brakes from Jered Joplin. Best brakes on the market in my opinion.
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

The standard 284 Winchester or 285 Shehane which is a slightly improved version of the 284 Have become quite popular lately. The 180 bergers at 3000 fps beat a 6.5/284 or 300 Win Mag hands down with at least twice the bbl life or more and it uses a standard 308/473 boltface.

The other issue is recoil. How much can you tolerate in extended shooting sessions?
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

Great thread, glad I came in for a looksee. For a newcomer to shooting, especially someone who isn't reloading, I would look at a 308 or a 30-06. Either will get you to 1000y, the 06 can be really poured on for another 500 with the right loads and barrel length (26+)

There's excellent quality factory ammo available and if you decide to go hunting with it and lose, ruin or forget your ammo I'd bet dollars to donuts that if you can find a local store witth ammo on the shelf, they've got either of them.

The 7mm's in various short action mags, and the big, exotic 300's or 338's are both difficult to find factory ammo, but the loading costs so much as well you'll get a lot better just learning to shoot a 308 or a 30-06 well first.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _Shay_</div><div class="ubbcode-body">probably not 7.62x54r </div></div>

Based on what grounds?

It has more capacity and capability than a 308 in a properly assembled rifle, even if it headspaces on the rim. You can fix that as well and just setup the chamber 1-3 thou short so that it headspaces on the shoulder like a standard rimless round does.

Even with iron sights I can use mil surp ammo to bang a 400y plate all day from an arsenal reconditioned rifle. They'll shoot if you do your part.
 
Re: Bad long range calibers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think bullet/twist/chambering/bbl length, roughly in that order.

Lot's of good LR bullets in 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, .308", .338". Just make sure you have the barrel twisted to accomodate the high BC bullets.

.257" and .277" are a little thin on LR bullet choices. </div></div>

Excellent post and could agree more!
 
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