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Barrel break in? Hoppes? Windex? What? Some brass flecks on cleaning patch?

wayno1

wayno1

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 1, 2013
82
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Northern Peoples Republic of Illinois
Rebarrelled my Rem 700 PSS
Direct from Bartlein Barrels in Jackson, WI. Our group shoots with 5-6 of these guys from Bartelin.
Got a - 1/11.25 twist, .308. stainless steel. This is a custom single point cut rifling.
True bolt and receiver face, oversize recoil lug, etc.

Was at a range - fired first shot and cleared the weapon, and ran a rolled patch of Hoppe's 9 through the barrel per the instructions of the
barrel maker (face to face type instructions and his printed ones he gave me) then run several patches through till dry and shoot.
"Shoot one round and clean for the first two rounds individually. Look to see what the barrel is telling you. If I'm getting little to no copper out of it, I sit down and shoot the gun. Say 4 - 5 round groups and then clean. If the barrel cleans easily and shoots well, we consider it done."
link: Bartlein Barrels, Inc. - Break In/Cleaning

A couple of the long range shooters came over and told me if I didn't clean out all the oil before firing the next shot, that I was going to ruin the barrel by heating the oil from the Hoppes and cooking it into the stainless steel barrel, which would ruin it.
They suggested and were backed up by a 3rd bench rest shooter that it was okay to clean the barrel with the Hoppes, but to swab it out and then run patches with Windex on the patches until no more blue showed on the patches after each firing, or after firing 2-3 rounds. Then a final patch when done with Windex, dry patches, then swab with Hoppes so as not to leave the barrel metal exposed to rusting.

Once done, use the Hoppes and let it soak on the way home, clean as usual.

What the ???? Have NEVER heard of Windex swabbing before firing, nor 'cooking the oil at 2200 degrees F into the barrel metal and wrecking it".

Need some help on this. Don't want to run a new barrel, nor listen to people who may not know what they are talking about.

ran about 15 round through with the above cleaning procedure. and on getting home ran some patches with Hoppes through and got a few specs of brass on the first patch. Is that normal for a new barrel?

People here collectively have a lot of knowledge on this - would appreciate input!
Thanks!
 
They were wrong, use 409....


Dude, just shoot the thing and don't worry about it. Personally, I shoot one round and clean it. If it has copper then I fire 3 more then clean it. All my Bartlein's have shown little to no copper after the first round. Usually it just a one round process and I'm not really even sure if that needed.
 
You CAN use windex to clean the oil. I have done it myself, but you MUST use the ammonia free stuff.
However, if you ran several dry patches after the hoppes, you have NOTHING to worry about.

More gun range commando's
 
I just have to believe that the brass flecks are from the chamber. Take a look at your ammo, then at the fired cases. What are they telling you? If hand loading, are you trimming? The specks/flecks of brass are from your loads, since that's the only place it can come from. I wouldn't worry too much over it.

Keep in your mind that there are, as a gross generalization, two types of rifle shooters; those that worry and harp/worry over every little detail and those that pay attention to critical facts and then just shoot. There really is a place for both types of people as I see it. If it were not for those that spend numerous hours poring over every detail of their loads and other aspects of shooting, then we would not have some of the great knowledge we have now.

I just happen to be one of those that prefers to spend my limited off time actually shooting. Each to his/her own. Which are you?
 
Windex is stained blue:.. And they wanted you to run Windex patches until they weren't blue anymore?


Sounds like you got sent for roll of flight line
 
Gray said:
They were wrong, use 409....
Dude, just shoot the thing and don't worry about it. Personally, I shoot one round and clean it. If it has copper then I fire 3 more then clean it. All my Bartlein's have shown little to no copper after the first round. Usually it just a one round process and I'm not really even sure if that needed.
Click to expand...

409? really?

Ran about 15 rounds through then ran a soak patch of Hoppes. Got home and let it sit a couple hours. Ran a patch thru and saw some brass flecks for 2nd time.
Using Federal GMM 168 gr. May just be the barrel breaking in. But will keep an eye on it.

Thanks
 
lash said:
I just have to believe that the brass flecks are from the chamber. Take a look at your ammo, then at the fired cases. What are they telling you? If hand loading, are you trimming? The specks/flecks of brass are from your loads, since that's the only place it can come from. I wouldn't worry too much over it.

Keep in your mind that there are, as a gross generalization, two types of rifle shooters; those that worry and harp/worry over every little detail and those that pay attention to critical facts and then just shoot. There really is a place for both types of people as I see it. If it were not for those that spend numerous hours poring over every detail of their loads and other aspects of shooting, then we would not have some of the great knowledge we have now.

I just happen to be one of those that prefers to spend my limited off time actually shooting. Each to his/her own. Which are you?
Click to expand...

well, maybe just part of the break in. As I said above, using Federal GMM 168gr. Will try some handloads next time trimmed back to specs.
Want to start off a new barrel correctly, and work the details for close so I can know the rifle and what its doing, then I can add the factors in for F Class 300, 500, 600 yards and later out to 1000 yards, wind, temp, humidity etc. all the other factors affecting hitting the target.
Just trying to get the basics first. Thanks for the advice!
 
Bench rest? What do they know? You need to get some advice from a service rifle shooter! There's the real deal! :) Shoot that rifle! Accuracy falls off, clean it. Were those guys at the range talking more than shooting? Ha! Be sure to use a brillo pad on the barrel exterior also when cleaning. Clean in-clean out-wax on-wax off....Good luck and good shooting!

Doug
 
Try acetone if your looking to remove oil, though I would recommend lock ease (available at Napa) it evaporates in about 10 minutes leaving colloidal graphite behind which really works good in the break in process


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
wayno1 said:
409? really?

Ran about 15 rounds through then ran a soak patch of Hoppes. Got home and let it sit a couple hours. Ran a patch thru and saw some brass flecks for 2nd time.
Using Federal GMM 168 gr. May just be the barrel breaking in. But will keep an eye on it.

Thanks
Click to expand...
The edge of the throat is very sharp on a freshly cut chamber. When you break in your barrel, you're really just breaking in the throat.
Don't sweat the flakes, they will disappear after a few boxes.
 
Read this somewhere on the 'Hide..

Barrel break-in procedure: Fire first round, clean with second round, repeat...
 
There is a difference between making sure your new barrel is clear of material from the barreling/gunsmithing process and then there is cleaning for no damn reason.

Gale McMillan, of McMillan Stocks fame, was one of the finest barrel-makers and benchrest shooters of all time. From Gale:

As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed [one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good. The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smith would.

Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this. Now when you flame me on this please [explain] what you think is happening to the inside of your barrel during the break in that is helping you.

Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing. In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it.

It all got started when a barrel maker that I know started putting break-in instructions in the box with each barrel he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help and his reply was if they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point; it definately will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset benchrest world records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at one time) along with High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore national and world records and my instructions were to clean as often as possible preferably every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from normal wear and tear. I am even reading about people recommending breaking-in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the guns'.
 
Shoot it and clean every few range sessions. Cleaning copper is futile. It is the carbon buildup to clean. Copper will build up and if you clean it out it will take a few rounds for the copper to build back up and the rifle will settle back in.
 
wayno1 said:
409? really?

Ran about 15 rounds through then ran a soak patch of Hoppes. Got home and let it sit a couple hours. Ran a patch thru and saw some brass flecks for 2nd time.
Using Federal GMM 168 gr. May just be the barrel breaking in. But will keep an eye on it.

Thanks
Click to expand...

That was a joke
 
My Howa .308 Varmint came with the "Windex" break in procedure but seems to relate in theory to what the OP has mentioned. Wasn't sure what to make of it but but here it is FWIW:

"BREAK-IN PROCEDURE FOR GUN BARRELS USING JACKETED BULLETS
For the first ten shots we recommend using jacketed bullets with a nitro powder load (Most Factory Ammo).
Clean the oil out of the barrel before each shot using a simple window cleaner (like Windex®) which will soak
the oil out of the pores. After firing each cartridge, use a good copper cleaner (one with ammonia) to remove
the copper fouling from the barrel. We do not recommend anything with an abrasive in it since you are
trying to seal the barrel, not keep it agitated.
After cleaning with bore cleaner, clean again with window cleaner after each shot. Use window cleaner
because many bore cleaners use a petroleum base which you want to remove before firing the next shot.
This will keep the carbon from building up in the barrel (oil left in the pores, when burned, turns to carbon).
To keep the temperature cool in the barrel, wait at least 5 minutes between break-in shots. The barrel must
remain cool during the break-in procedure. If the barrel is allowed to heat up during the break-in, it will
destroy the steel’s ability to develop a home registration point, or memory. It will have a tendency to make
the barrel “walk” when it heats up in the future. We have all seen barrels that, as they heat up, start to shoot
high and then “walk” to the right. This was caused by improperly breaking in the barrel (generally by sitting
at a bench rest and shooting 20 rounds in 5 minutes or so). If you take a little time in the beginning and do it
right, you will be much more pleased with the barrel in the future.
Look into the end of the barrel after firing a shot, and you will see a light copper-colored wash in the barrel.
Remove this before firing the next shot. Somewhere during the procedure, around shot 6 or 7, it will be
obvious that the copper color is no longer appearing in the barrel. Continue the window cleaner and bore
cleaner applications through shot 10.
Following the initial ten shots, you then may shoot 2 rounds, cleaning between each pair of shots, for the
next 10 shots. This is simply insuring that the burnishing process has been completed.
In theory, you are closing the pores of the barrel metal that have been opened and exposed through the
cutting and hand lapping procedures.
BREAK-IN PROCEDURE FOR BARRELS USING LEAD BULLETS
The same shooting-cleaning process may be used when firing lead bullets and black powder with this
exception: shoot 2 cartridges, then clean for the first 30 rounds. Naturally, you will use a cleaner appropriate
for black powder. You can also use harder lead if available to accelerate the break in. This will accomplish the
same as the jacketed bullets.
It may take 80 to 100 rounds to break in with lead. That is why we recommend using jacketed bullets when
possible. After this procedure, your barrel’s interior surface will be sealed and should shoot cleaner and
develop less fouling for the rest of its shooting life."
 
If you have a match grade custom lapped barrel you don't need to break it in that way. I did a copper solvent/alcohol after every shot on my new m1a and it was sub moa after 20 rounds. I truly believe it works on the rougher production barrels. It does not do a damn thing for barrels that already had a few boxes of ammo through them, we tried that experiment on used rifles we bought. I believe GA precision has a break in procedure similar to that on their website. If I had money to waste, I would buy 2 identical new rifles and do the break in on one and just shoot the other and see if it really makes a difference. I really don't see any other way of answering this question.
 
wayno1 said:
People here collectively have a lot of knowledge on this - would appreciate input!
Thanks!
Click to expand...

An old Sioux told me that he would feed his dog some sand mixed in his food and when it came out it was much more fine. So he would use the dog shit to swab his barrels. The poo would abrade any burs that were left in the barrel and mirror the surface in just a few sessions. I couldn't believe it so he showed me his groups which were one hole. I started feeding my Dachshund some sand and using his poo, now my guns shoot one hole groups. If you don't want to pick up the poo you can just follow the dog around and put the open action by it's ass so when it shits so the poo goes right in the breech.

I would try that, it really works.
 
100meterpeter said:
If you have a match grade custom lapped barrel you don't need to break it in that way. I did a copper solvent/alcohol after every shot on my new m1a and it was sub moa after 20 rounds. I truly believe it works on the rougher production barrels. It does not do a damn thing for barrels that already had a few boxes of ammo through them, we tried that experiment on used rifles we bought. I believe GA precision has a break in procedure similar to that on their website. If I had money to waste, I would buy 2 identical new rifles and do the break in on one and just shoot the other and see if it really makes a difference. I really don't see any other way of answering this question.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Very logical. Appreciate your taking time to post the information. Since it was a custom rifling job, and put about 15 round through it, slow fire, with appropriate cleaning, will just start working on loads.
Thank you!
 
Sako man said:
An old Sioux told me that he would feed his dog some sand mixed in his food and when it came out it was much more fine. So he would use the dog shit to swab his barrels. The poo would abrade any burs that were left in the barrel and mirror the surface in just a few sessions. I couldn't believe it so he showed me his groups which were one hole. I started feeding my Dachshund some sand and using his poo, now my guns shoot one hole groups. If you don't want to pick up the poo you can just follow the dog around and put the open action by it's ass so when it shits so the poo goes right in the breech.

I would try that, it really works.
Click to expand...

[People here collectively have a lot of knowledge on this -]

LOL
 
Last edited:
Hi Frank! Glad to see you here. As you can see, some pretty wild comments.
No, you never mentioned Windex.
Got a one hole group of 3 of four shots my last set of rounds.
Will work some more with Federal GMM 168 and get a muzzle velocity so I can work on my handloads.
Thanks for the phone call and the advice - will do that.
When I switch to Varget for the reloads will see how the carbon issue goes.

Be back after last match this year for glass bedding if I am keeping the stock.

Thanks very much for being a pro!
 
Sako man said:
An old Sioux told me that he would feed his dog some sand mixed in his food and when it came out it was much more fine. So he would use the dog shit to swab his barrels. The poo would abrade any burs that were left in the barrel and mirror the surface in just a few sessions. I couldn't believe it so he showed me his groups which were one hole. I started feeding my Dachshund some sand and using his poo, now my guns shoot one hole groups. If you don't want to pick up the poo you can just follow the dog around and put the open action by it's ass so when it shits so the poo goes right in the breech.

I would try that, it really works.
Click to expand...

This has to be gospel truth as thinking on it Ive yet to see a dog with more than one asshole, therefore if it works for the dog surely it will work for your rifle.
 
Actually, I hear it goes by taste. You have to chew on it to check the grit level of the sand.
Just don't swallow too much of it. You'll be eating up all your profits.
I am sure the two of you would be able to do that and then bottle the 'best of the best' for the rest of us.
 
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