Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

[Keith Johns]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

Rob01, I know how knowledgeable you are. Ive shot with you before and you're very good at what you do.
May I ask you, what is your idea of the perfect short barreled round and why?
Is it a .308win?


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Direct at the op:

Good luck in those comps. I am sure you will show all the guys with those longer barrels the errors of their winning ways and show them how it's done. Sorry I wasted your time with my limited knowledge. </div></div>

I wont divulge the op's information, like his career choices, but he deserves more respect than he's being shown here.

Im sure when he joins me at some of our local AZ matches, he'll do quite well.

 

[Lowe Left]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: b2!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand that an 18" barrel will not maximize the potential of the 6.5 CM... that is not my goal. If I want to shoot a target super far away I will use my 338... and I already have a .308 with a 24 inch barrel... now I am looking to build a LIGHT WEIGHT, EASY TO SWING gun I can use in comps. This is intended so I can run, shoot off hand, and manuever the rifle alot easier than all you guys running around with your 28" BBL rifles that weigh 20 pounds. SO thank you to all the people who read the post and addressed it accordingly. I have my questions answered.</div></div> If it were me, I'd cut the 308 back to 18" and keep the 6.5 @ 24" or so in a lighter contour barrel. What scope/stock do you plan to run in this LW rig?

 

[brianlangeliers]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowe Left</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: b2!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand that an 18" barrel will not maximize the potential of the 6.5 CM... that is not my goal. If I want to shoot a target super far away I will use my 338... and I already have a .308 with a 24 inch barrel... now I am looking to build a LIGHT WEIGHT, EASY TO SWING gun I can use in comps. This is intended so I can run, shoot off hand, and manuever the rifle alot easier than all you guys running around with your 28" BBL rifles that weigh 20 pounds. SO thank you to all the people who read the post and addressed it accordingly. I have my questions answered.</div></div> If it were me, I'd cut the 308 back to 18" and keep the 6.5 @ 24" or so in a lighter contour barrel. What scope/stock do you plan to run in this LW rig?</div></div>

I am going to use a M40A1 Mcmillan stock with a USO 1.8-10. Thats my idea so far.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

I like Lowes Idea of an 18" 308, and a 24" 6.5creed.

Brian, if you choose to do something like that, we're more than willing to help ya out. We want to see you happy, even if it means redoing some work we already did

If you want a 24" creed built, and for your 308 to be cut down to 16"-18", we can do that for ya.

We're here to make ya happy. Just let us know!



Brian, my buddy Mike just built an 18" creed. If you wait about 2 weeks we'll get to chrono some loads from it and see how it does at 1k next to mine with a 23" tube.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ddavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killswitch engage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="text-decoration: underline">you are defeating the whole purpose of the cartridge.</span> </div></div>

20" 308 will do <2650 with a .510 BC bullet.
20" 6.5 will do >2700 with a .585 BC bullet.

Advantage: 6.5 </div></div>

What purpose is being defeated?


To those who say there's no point in using a short barreled creed, or that the creed was "designed for a 28" tube", what do you mean?

If the creed is ballistically better than the 308 with ANY length barrel, how can a guy say its a stupid choice over a 308 with a short barrel?

Why is an 18" 308win a smarter choice than an 18" creedmoor, when the creed is ballistically better?

<span style="font-weight: bold">WHY?</span>

 

[brianlangeliers]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ddavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killswitch engage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="text-decoration: underline">you are defeating the whole purpose of the cartridge.</span> </div></div>

20" 308 will do <2650 with a .510 BC bullet.
20" 6.5 will do >2700 with a .585 BC bullet.

Advantage: 6.5 </div></div>

What purpose is being defeated?


To those who say there's no point in using a short barreled creed, or that the creed was "designed for a 28" tube", what do you mean?

If the creed is ballistically better than the 308 with ANY length barrel, how can a guy say its a stupid choice over a 308 with a short barrel?

Why is an 18" 308win a smarter choice than an 18" creedmoor, when the creed is ballistically better?

<span style="font-weight: bold">WHY?</span></div></div>

Exactly! Why?

Anyway...Keith, I am not touching that 308 you guys built for me. It shoots under 1/4 MOA at 100 yards, it printed an inch group at 300... I am not touching it. Its perfect. Def let me know how the 6.5 does with MV etc... Thanks bro.

 

[Gray]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ddavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killswitch engage</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="text-decoration: underline">you are defeating the whole purpose of the cartridge.</span> </div></div>

20" 308 will do <2650 with a .510 BC bullet.
20" 6.5 will do >2700 with a .585 BC bullet.

Advantage: 6.5 </div></div>

What purpose is being defeated?


To those who say there's no point in using a short barreled creed, or that the creed was "designed for a 28" tube", what do you mean?

If the creed is ballistically better than the 308 with ANY length barrel, how can a guy say its a stupid choice over a 308 with a short barrel?

Why is an 18" 308win a smarter choice than an 18" creedmoor, when the creed is ballistically better?

<span style="font-weight: bold">WHY?</span></div></div>

Keith, your right about the 6.5 Creed. Given two rifles with 18" barrels, one a 308, one a 6.5 Creed, the 6.5 would outdo it all day long. BUT, a 24"-26" 6.5 Creedmoor will stomp them both when you are running at a much higher velocity, thus the ADVANTAGE. I'm not going to say you "can't" run a shorty 6.5, you just don't have the extra 200 or so feet per sec of speed available as you do with a longer tube. What Rob and others are trying to say is that a 30 cal round and a 6.5mm round running at 2500-26 something are pretty close ballistically. BUT a 6.5 running close to 3000 fps really takes advantage of the high BC bullet. Several hundred feet per second is HUGE in terms of ballistics. I shot my 260 running a 139 Scenar @ 2930 in a match a month ago and another shooter beside me was running the same combo at 2750. The difference in a 10mph crosswind between the two was very noticeable. With all that said I too am curious about the MV from a short 6.5. I like short tubes also, so it will be interesting to see the results. I just know what a 26" 6.5 is capable of doing vs a 18" 6.5 at distance in windy "real world" conditions. My guess for muzzle velocity is going to be around the mid 2600's. Here's a build similar to what the OP was originally posting about. http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2962929

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

I used to be a fan of long barrels and care about velocity. The guy with the fastest velocity was the coolest.

Then I cut my barrels way down, stopped carrying about velocity, and simply aimed a 1/2moa higher.

Both equal in the end for me. One is just easier to move around for my small frame.


From the link above... 18.5" tube gave 2640fps with factory 140 Amaxs. If thats true, you might get 2700 with hand loads.

Thats a .585 BC at <span style="font-weight: bold">2700 from an 18.5" tube</span> with hand loads.
And what's the desired velocity from a <span style="font-weight: bold">28</span>" tube??

 

[Gray]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

3000 fps without pressure signs

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

I'll trade 300-350fps for 10" of barrel.

I wish I could do it twice! Drop to 2400fps with a 9" barrel

I think a compromise of 23" or so at 2820fps is best though... hence what I did to my own rifle. If I hand loaded I could get 2900 if I didnt mind pressure signs.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like Lowes Idea of an 18" 308, and a 24" 6.5creed.

Brian, if you choose to do something like that, we're more than willing to help ya out. We want to see you happy, even if it means redoing some work we already did

If you want a 24" creed built, and for your 308 to be cut down to 16"-18", we can do that for ya.

We're here to make ya happy. Just let us know!



Brian, my buddy Mike just built an 18" creed. If you wait about 2 weeks we'll get to chrono some loads from it and see how it does at 1k next to mine with a 23" tube. </div></div>

I'm doing exactly that. In a switch barrel rifle 6.5 creed at 28" and 18" 308. I was going to do a 18" creed instead of the 308 but I figured ill be hunting with it so ill take the 308 instead of another creed and it seemed redundant to have a short and long creedmoor barrel.

 

[Gray]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

In all honesty if you run 123 Scenars, you will pick up most of the lost velocity. A 123 running at 3050 fps (out of my rifle) mirrors the ballistics of a 139 @ 2930 with less recoil. Probably a good choice for a shorty.

 

[treymchattie]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

i have no issues carrying around a stupid long rifle, so i had my gunsmith finish my barrel at 28.

 

[Lowe Left]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Why is an 18" 308win a smarter choice than an 18" creedmoor, when the creed is ballistically better?

<span style="font-weight: bold">WHY?</span></div></div>

It's not a smarter choice, but the OP already has a 308 with 24" tube. Why not shorten the ballistically lesser caliber and reap the benefits out of a 26" barrled 6.5 Creedmoor?

For inquiry minds, quick JBM data, 139 @ 2700 has 4" more wind drift @ 800 yards than the same bullet running @ 2850.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

On my 6.5x47, my velocity on Varget/130 VLDs went from 2890 fps to 2875 fps going from a 27" monster to 22". My 140 VLD load somehow actually picked up 20 fps. My load is a little warm, I guess you could say. No visual pressure signs but on firing #8 on my brass, about 1/3-1/2 of my pockets are getting a little loose.

This is one barrel with one powder. One cannot guarantee that the same will be true for the larger 6.5 CM with the slower H4350. It's been common guys don't give up much with x47 with a shorter barrel, but the .260 and 6.5 CM do. This may need to be a consideration.

Also, it hurts to lose 6.5x47 brass.

 

[cjgemm]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowe Left</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Why is an 18" 308win a smarter choice than an 18" creedmoor, when the creed is ballistically better?

<span style="font-weight: bold">WHY?</span></div></div>

It's not a smarter choice, but the OP already has a 308 with 24" tube. Why not shorten the ballistically lesser caliber and reap the benefits out of a 26" barrled 6.5 Creedmoor?

<span style="font-weight: bold">For inquiry minds, quick JBM data, 139 @ 2700 has 4" more wind drift @ 800 yards than the same bullet running @ 2850.</span> </div></div>

.1 mils sounds better.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Then I cut my barrels way down, stopped carrying about velocity, and simply aimed a 1/2moa higher.</div></div>

That's sweet. Now tell me how to aim to reduce the effects of a wind gust AFTER I press the trigger.

The whole reason you see shooters using fast 6 and 6.5's is because the effects of wind drift are minimized. Cut the legs out of a 6.5 and you might as well go back to chucking .30's and save some barrel life.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: b2!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand that an 18" barrel will not maximize the potential of the 6.5 CM... that is not my goal. If I want to shoot a target super far away I will use my 338...</div></div>

Except most competitions won't allow you to. The next one I will be at has a caliber limit of .30 and a speed limit of 3K.

Even if there was not a speed/caliber limit, most require you to shoot the same rifle at all stages. I am sure I could run a full two day competition with a .338LM, but I seriously doubt I would be picking the prize table at the end.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: b2!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and I already have a .308 with a 24 inch barrel... now<span style="font-weight: bold"> I am looking to build a LIGHT WEIGHT, EASY TO SWING gun I can use in comps.</span> This is intended so I can run, shoot off hand, and manuever the rifle alot easier than all you guys running around with your 28" BBL rifles that weigh 20 pounds. SO thank you to all the people who read the post and addressed it accordingly. I have my questions answered. </div></div>

When I am packing for a match I can grab a variety of barrel lengths. When you see me at a big match this year I will be dragging around a long barreled .243. It's not because I like longer rifles. It's because it is the better tool for the task and I like winning.

Regarding the offhand/easy to swing......I have yet to shoot a match where a 26" barrel was an issue if you know how to handle a rifle. Even my wife can sling up a 18lb rifle and shoot offhand.

If you really want a short barreled 6.5CM, then go for it. There are scores of smiths that will take your money. What I suggest is build up a 26" rifle and then if you don't like it, cut it back.

If you just want to show up and burn powder, bring anything you want. If you want to win in an open class, you aren't going to do it with a shorty at any large match. I like my short .308's but I am smart enough to know that they are no longer competitive in the GAME.

Skill is 90% of this game, but the reason you see the top shooters running the gear they do is because they never want the gear to limit the application of their skill.

 

[JC Steel]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

I would go with a 26" or 27" tube on the Creed.

You will gain some velocity, and the only down fall is getting in and out of barricades. Other then that, you wont notice the extra couple inches on the barrel.

 

[mattsnuked]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Good luck in those comps. I am sure you will show all the guys with those longer barrels the errors of their winning ways and show them how it's done. Sorry I wasted your time with my limited knowledge. </div></div>

LOL, I have to agree with Rob it's apparent here who does/doesn't shoot comps on a consistent basis. I will take a 28" barrel over a 20" any day of the week. Velocity matters but IMO more importantly how the rifle handles under recoil for follow up engagement is more important to me. I'm not saying it can't be done but it sure is a lot easier to manage with say a 30 second stage time.

 

[Lowe Left]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cjgemm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowe Left</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Why is an 18" 308win a smarter choice than an 18" creedmoor, when the creed is ballistically better?

<span style="font-weight: bold">WHY?</span></div></div>

It's not a smarter choice, but the OP already has a 308 with 24" tube. Why not shorten the ballistically lesser caliber and reap the benefits out of a 26" barrled 6.5 Creedmoor?

<span style="font-weight: bold">For inquiry minds, quick JBM data, 139 @ 2700 has 4" more wind drift @ 800 yards than the same bullet running @ 2850.</span> </div></div>

.1 mils sounds better.</div></div>

I had the .1 mil in my original draft, but deleted it because I wanted it to sound WORSE!! lol

 

[Gray]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Skill is 90% of this game, but the reason you see the top shooters running the gear they do is because they never want the gear to limit the application of their skill. </div></div>

Well Said!! +1

 

[brianlangeliers]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

So my question for everybody who runs a 28" rifle... how well do you shoot from the sitting position, and the kneeling position, and the standing position? Or do these "tactical" matches consist of laying in the dirt with bipods where weight and balance have no effect? It pretty obvious that with a longer tube I will get higher velocity. Its also pretty obvious that with Higher MV and a higher BC I will get less wind deflection. These are not difficult principles to understand. I am not touching my .308, it shoots dimes and I have it at 24" for a reason. I dont want to get another .308... I would like to have a different caliber.... 6.5 CM seems like an accurate, low recoil round. The entire point of this thread was to find out if a 6.5 would work.. get a few ideas... etc. When I think of a tactical match I think of "real world" scenario match. If all you 28" long rifle warriors are hammering targets from sitting, and kneeling positions with that kind of off balanced, clumsy rifles well good on you, you are way better shots than myself. Anyway, I am 99% sure I am getting a 18-20" long barrel in 6.5 Creed.. eventually. I will make sure if the round comes out of the barrel and just falls to the ground after 10 ft I will let you all know so you can laugh and my weanie ballistics and short barrel. But if I come to a match and beat any of you guys with my weanie girlie ballistics... well... you owe me a beer. Out.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: b2!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So my question for everybody who runs a 28" rifle... how well do you shoot from the sitting position, and the kneeling position, and the standing position? Or do these "tactical" matches consist of laying in the dirt with bipods where weight and balance have no effect? </div></div>

You are under the misguided assumption that weight and balance are independent of each other.

It is a pretty simple matter to build a balanced long barreled rifle. Since it is balanced and I am pretty well acquainted with use of a sling shooting from standing, sitting, kneeling or even prone/unsupported is not a difficult matter.

You don't need a straight taper or full bull for tactical competitions. You can use a Sendero, Medium Palma, etc. and have a long rifle that handles very well.

 

[brianlangeliers]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

No, I fully realize that there are multiple tapers for barrels. I just have rifles with longers barrels. Now I would like a short barrel. Almost mimicking the XM3 the Marine Corps had out for a while.

 

[mattsnuked]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

Come on out and have some fun b2. The next match is on the 16th at Phoenix Rod and Gun, just a short drive from your location. You can see what a "typical' match is like (although soberbiker is running it this month so we are all probably screwed). Since you have never been to a match before you can actually see what one is like, it's local so there's no pressure just local bragging rights. Most of the Vegas guys come down and they all shoot Creedmoors, you can ask them what they like.

Just make sure your ego can take a beating from a girl, Regina is damn good at the positional stuff from a long barrel rifle!

 

[Gray]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

Call Hart and tell them you want an XM-3 contour then cut at 18.5, which is pretty much a heavy Palma contour.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: b2!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now I would like a short barrel. Almost mimicking the XM3 the Marine Corps had out for a while. </div></div>

If you aren't trying to win a match, just go with a short .308. They are fun, easy on barrel life and actually work pretty well with a short barrel. That is what I still have on my AE, and will keep as a "fun" barrel that allows me to run 500 and in matches without burning up barrels.

If I were in your shoes I would chop down a .308 for your short barrel fix and run a long 6.5CM for your "match" rifle.

We aren't out to get you here. We are just trying to save you some money and give you gear you need to do well.

 

[PowerstrokeOBX]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: b2!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now I would like a short barrel. Almost mimicking the XM3 the Marine Corps had out for a while. </div></div>

If you aren't trying to win a match, just go with a short .308. They are fun, easy on barrel life and actually work pretty well with a short barrel. That is what I still have on my AE, and will keep as a "fun" barrel that allows me to run 500 and in matches without burning up barrels.

If I were in your shoes I would chop down a .308 for your short barrel fix and run a long 6.5CM for your "match" rifle.

We aren't out to get you here. We are just trying to save you some money and give you gear you need to do well. </div></div>

Or buy 2 creed barrels. Have one long as a backup and keep cutting one 2-4" after each match then see how you like each length then cut the second to match the first.

Barrels are like your pecker. A 10"er and a 4" both get the job done one just does it better. And you can always cut your 10" pecker down but you cant glue 6" on a 4"er!

 

[g7spring]

Re: Barrel Length for a 6.5 Creedmor??

My CM is 22". Everything is a compromise. I was willing to give up a little juice for what my hands deemed a properly proportioned rifle. I shoot this rifle better than anything else I've ever handled. Couldn't be happier.