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BC Variation bullet to bullet is real, and its a problem.

If only there were a way to launch projectiles closer to the speed of sound so you could track their trans-sonic behavior at closer ranges...

Oh well. I guess we're stuck with guesses and high noise to signal ratios...
 
Maybe some of you folks haven’t used an Oehler 88 or similar? Combine the
Infinition unit with a three position 88 system, and an electronic target at
intended bullet destination, and you have plenty of data points. The 88 is
good for several kilometres, I’ve used modified electronic target systems to
3000 meters without issue.
 
If only there were a way to launch projectiles closer to the speed of sound so you could track their trans-sonic behavior at closer ranges...

Oh well. I guess we're stuck with guesses and high noise to signal ratios...
We've done this with the Flatlines in order to see just what happens in transition. While it raises its own set of circumstances, it does work.
 
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Maybe some of you folks haven’t used an Oehler 88 or similar? Combine the
Infinition unit with a three position 88 system, and an electronic target at
intended bullet destination, and you have plenty of data points. The 88 is
good for several kilometres, I’ve used modified electronic target systems to
3000 meters without issue.


Hi,

Yes but at that point you are piecing the data together from not only 3 different systems that collect data in different ways but also compounding the margin of errors of each into a cumulative error margin for the end result spreadsheet.

Single component/unit doppler radar data will always provide better results. Hence why facilities that have such capabilities are incredibly expensive per day.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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Imagine if we actually took notes and wrote things down

Do that overtime and it’s almost like a custom curve...?

Ahhh, dope...knew i heard it before.

Just stirring things up a little
 
This confirms exactly what I have seen with particular brands of projectiles. Shooting in the same
conditions on the same day, some projectiles show more vertical than others despite excellent
ES numbers and a consistent shooter. Really stands out over a mile with my 300NM and 338.

For EG; using 225 ELDm's we saw 4+ moa of vertical at 2 k. Despite the mild conditions, we were
thinking ok, theres an updraft or something we are not seeing shooting over two small valleys.
Swapped ammo to the 230 Berger and the vertical disappeared, despite a slightly higher ES.
After scratching my head with AMAX's for years, and seeing Hornady make a big noise about
their new A-Tips, variable bullet BC explains a lot.

I know some guys batch weigh their projectiles and sort base to ogive, for those of us who are
time poor we need to rely on consistent performance within a certain batch number. Lapua,
Berger seem to be the most consistent out of the box. Would be nice to run solids all day but $$$.

This sorting is what I do. I have found 140 RDF's to be the worst in this regard and 143 eldx to be the most consistent in this regard (of the half dozen different mfgs and weight/styles of bullets used)

Those 140 RDF's were the real eye opener to me. Terrible consistency.
 
Doc:
Care to put money where your claims are? I'll split the cost to Dave for his work.
Step up to the plate
Alan

All in due time we will. We are working on a number of research papers and methods for conveying the information to the public. Both visual and data wise.

That's one I've seen in AB photos as well as one MV head unit. This model is basically the same used by several other manufacturers including Hornady and Barnes. Another option is going Weibel.

The Infinition is only one of the systems we have. In Georgia we were not using the Infinition, and in many of the photos what you are seeing is not our Infinition system. We were able to track the PDMs into the subsonic in clean air with the system we brought out to Georgia.

If only there were a way to launch projectiles closer to the speed of sound so you could track their trans-sonic behavior at closer ranges...

Oh well. I guess we're stuck with guesses and high noise to signal ratios...

Yep, just launch them at a slower muzzle velocity.
 
im trying to find my old college papers but,

initial RPM and the acceleration to that RPM matters for a decay curve

starting at a particular rpm on said curve will not produce the same rate of rotational and stability decay

the stability of rotating mass at 700 FPS is not the same when,

starting at 3000 FPS @ 200,000 RPM and decaying
vs
starting at 1500 FPS @ 100,000 RPM and decaying

EX:

take a kids spinning top

spin it real fast and even when it slows waayyy down it will wobble but not fall down

try to start the kids top at the really slow "wobble speed" and it falls right tot he ground

id like to see the correlation from starting sub sonic to the actual

would be great if it all fits together, make data collection a lot easier

thanks
 
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The Infinition is only one of the systems we have. In Georgia we were not using the Infinition, and in many of the photos what you are seeing is not our Infinition system. We were able to track the PDMs into the subsonic in clean air with the system we brought out to Georgia.
Your right, I wasn't talking about the one at Georgia, which is a Weibel 10Ghz monopulse radar.
 
im trying to find my old college papers but,

initial RPM and the acceleration to that RPM matters for a decay curve

starting at a particular rpm on said curve will not produce the same rate of rotational and stability decay

the stability of rotating mass at 700 FPS is not the same when,

starting at 3000 FPS @ 200,000 RPM and decaying
vs
starting at 1500 FPS @ 100,000 RPM and decaying

EX:

take a kids spinning top

spin it real fast and even when it slows waayyy down it will wobble but not fall down

try to start the kids top at the really slow "wobble speed" and it falls right tot he ground

id like to see the correlation from starting sub sonic to the actual

would be great if it all fits together, make data collection a lot easier

thanks

Faster twist barrel in the reduced velocity test.
 
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Thanks.

Is there a particular formula that you have used or just the relation of “expected” rpm and velocity.
 
Bueller....Bueller...

maybe one of the bullet makers can chime in

they prob know more than most
 
^^^Yes

if he would sprinkle some knowledge on this one, it would be great
 
I'm trying to learn as much as I can on this subject of BC variation, bullet to bullet, and have a question for those much more knowledgeable.

Does a highly worn throat affect the BC due to increased wear on the bullet? I'm wondering this due to the idea of obtaining a custom value for a rifle/ammo system, then using said system extensively. Would the BC change with increased barrel wear? Honest question, not trying to stir anything.
 
Does a highly worn throat affect the BC due to increased wear on the bullet? I'm wondering this due to the idea of obtaining a custom value for a rifle/ammo system, then using said system extensively. Would the BC change with increased barrel wear? Honest question, not trying to stir anything.

On one of my prior 223 barrels, working out of a single lot of bulk bullets, I observed some decay towards the end of the barrel life. Chrono said the speed hadn't changed but the drops at distance required additional elevation.

That barrel was pretty toasted though, looked like a fire-cracked cheese grater inside.
 
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I'm trying to learn as much as I can on this subject of BC variation, bullet to bullet, and have a question for those much more knowledgeable.

Does a highly worn throat affect the BC due to increased wear on the bullet? I'm wondering this due to the idea of obtaining a custom value for a rifle/ammo system, then using said system extensively. Would the BC change with increased barrel wear? Honest question, not trying to stir anything.
I think the answer is yes; if, your external ballistics solver uses BC. But, not because of rougher engraving.
The BC value assigned to a bullet is used to scale an ideal bullet model to match that particular bullet’s actual flight path. So, anything that can cause the bullet’s actual flight path to be different than the ideal model requires a different BC value.

In your example; the worn out barrel would cause the bullet to be misaligned with the bore and wobble differently each shot. The different wobbles require different BCs to align the actual path to the path generated by the model.

Cheers,
 
Last edited:
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I'm trying to learn as much as I can on this subject of BC variation, bullet to bullet, and have a question for those much more knowledgeable.

Does a highly worn throat affect the BC due to increased wear on the bullet? I'm wondering this due to the idea of obtaining a custom value for a rifle/ammo system, then using said system extensively. Would the BC change with increased barrel wear? Honest question, not trying to stir anything.

My experience has been the average BC drops with barrel wear, and the shot to shot variation within a string rises as the barrel reaches the end of it's life. Both can happen before 100 yard groups open up, but it takes longer than just looking at the throat would suggest.

It's a fundamental problem that limits the usefulness of massively overbore cartridges for ELR.

You'd have to look pretty hard to see it at 1000 yards, but it starts getting obvious at about a mile.

If you want to start evaluating it, it starts with a Labradar and learning to load ammo with single digit SDs. With calm conditions, you can notice some low velocity shots going high, and some high velocity shots going low. You need to be disciplined about maintaining a constant POA and not chasing every shot. Next, you can establish your best bullet and start testing others against it for vertical spread at a mile+. Chrono every shot. I've digiscoped using a spotting scope with a reticle. Saying the bullet velocity out loud while recording makes it easier to figure out when replaying it. Remember that your first impression from this is ES and not SD. Unless you're shooting bench rest, lower SDs are higher scores.

If you try sorting, trimming, pointing, etc. jacketed bullets, it'll help, but it doesn't completely solve the problem. Solids get rid of the dimensional variations, but some of them show very high BC variations. Both of those observations suggest the problem isn't just in the dimensions, some of it is built into the aerodynamics particular to that bullet.

When your first barrel goes south, use more twist in the next one and check to see if bullets with a better BC than your baseline, but a previously unacceptable BC spread, start to work. Next up for me are 7 twists for a 30 and 338.

Some of the consequences of recognizing this issue are you can't perform final bullet selection based on 100 yard groups or how much elevation they take out of the turret.

I'm not a bullet developer or manufacturer. As a consumer, I don't care why, only which product or combination of products performs the best.
 
I will take a look at some of the past comments here next week. I am only able to check in every so often as I have other things to knock out as well. We did a library push of 49 PDMs today. Allowing users at the Kestrel Fall Classic to get a PDM straight from one of our RADAR units to use in the match. However and in the meantime here is our latest article which covers some of the topics in here: http://appliedballisticsllc.com/Art...rms – Improving on Ballistic Coefficients.pdf
 
**snip**

thanks

The RPM decreases at a much slower rate than the velocity does. Once you hit an SG of 1.5 the BC increase is hard to see. So the issue would only apply to marginally stabilized bullets, and not in the case of our data.

Thanks.

Is there a particular formula that you have used or just the relation of “expected” rpm and velocity.

We measure everything. We have built tools to specifically measure velocity decay as well.


A rifle can have effects on performance. If it damages the jacket, if it squats the bullet (which we have seen in cartridges which push bullets to extreme speeds and reduce performance as it deforms the bullet), and more.
 
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