Becoming a Competent Marksman: How Would You Invest Your Time and Money

[BlackWhiskey]

We all have limited time and money to invest in our passion of long range shooting. I am always interested to see where people invest these resources in order to become a competent long range marksman.

I realize that this maybe way over/under some people's budgets: To set a uniform baseline, assuming a $3k annual budget to get up and running (including rifle, training, optics, ammo etc...), with 4hrs during the work week (including gear research, dryfire, range time, reloading etc...) and 1 weekend a month for matches, school training and range time, how would you invest your resources?

I would invest no more than $1,500 in my rifle setup and hopefully less. I would probably go with a 24" Howa .308 in a B&C stock, some sort of muzzle brake, and a 3-15 Super Sniper. I would invest $300 getting a reloading station set up and, $500 on bullets, brass, primers and powder. The rest would go to training classes and match fees.

I would invest 2hrs a week practicing techniques/stages I learned through classes and matches, about 1/2 hr researching other techniques, 1/2 hr researching gear, and 1 hr reloading.

I would try for 2 training classer per year, 6 matches and 4 range sessions.

 

[DCR]

Snipers Hide Online Training.
Snipers Hide Training DVD.
Rifles Only DVD's.

After I have a rifle and some bullets. Take a class.

That's what I've been doing anyway. After a year I will finally get to go to a class!

 

[RobertB]

I would make sure I have a dependable rifle and optic first and foremost. You can have someone else shoot it to find out what it will really do if you are having trouble. I would want it to be in a short action caliber that isnt too pricey in both loading and bbl life...243,6.5 CM,.260, 308, 7-08 are all great choices. I would look into finding a local guy that knows his stuff to put you through the basics and show you what your NEEDS will be. You can refine your style in time. Different people shoot the same thigs differently because we are not all made alike. I have never seen the online trainng but I would imagine it will be very helpful and educational. I would look into a basic type class as well that my can get you going if a local shooter cant be found. This site here will be alot of value as well. Then I would focus on setting up different courese to practice with and take your time doing that. Its free and shots are not. Do not waste your ammo, learn to do it right the first time. Go prone or bench make sure your setup is functioning well and get some basic dope. After that, let prone only be 50% of your shooting. Practice what you have trouble with wheter its offhand or sitting/kneeling whatever. Dyfire can be very helpfull too. Keep a data book and be honest with yourself. That data book costs what one box of shells cost and can save you many boxes. If something isn;t working out for you, stop, think about whats going on and regroup. You dont need alot of money to become a competent marksman. Many people can do well with a factory rem700 and a 500 scope because they know their limitations/capabilities and practice. You locations and how many other shooters in this field will help you decide on a class or not. It may not be needed. And your needs might be different wheter you consider your needs to be military, hunting, comps, etc type.

I would invest more time into yourself that the ablolute best gear, dont get me wrong great gear is very important but alot of times with a new shooter the limitations lie within themselves and not the gun.

Hope this helps.

Good luck!

 

[BlackWhiskey]

Thanks for the responses, gents.

I guess I should have clarified: I've been in the long range game since 2006 when I passed the indoc for 3/7 Scout Sniper Platoon. I've been competing in matches since I got out of the Marine Corps in 2008 and fancy myself a competent marksman.

The reason for this question is to see what people would do in this scenario, as if they were starting over and had these particular resources.

 

[RobertB]

Thanks for the responses, gents.

I guess I should have clarified: I've been in the long range game since 2006 when I passed the indoc for 3/7 Scout Sniper Platoon. I've been competing in matches since I got out of the Marine Corps in 2008 and fancy myself a competent marksman.

The reason for this question is to see what people would do in this scenario, as if they were starting over and had these particular resources.

Gotcha, just mumbling nonsence like always.

 

[BlackWhiskey]

Gotcha, just mumbling nonsence like always.

You're response was exactly what I was looking for. I just wanted to make sure this didn't appear to be about me and what I'm looking for, but more about how you would invest your resources to become a competent marksman.

 

[LawnMM]

If I were starting over today I'd suggest a 6.5 Creedmoor, reloading kit, and go to as many matches as possible. Nothing teaches you more than shooting under stress under varying conditions and courses of fire. It highlights weaknesses in gear which, when addressed, make you more efficient at the next outing

 

[2_many_dogs]

NRA Service Rifle with an AR-15.

 

[stik]

Snipers Hide Online Training.
Snipers Hide Training DVD.
Rifles Only DVD's.

After I have a rifle and some bullets. Take a class.



That's what I've been doing anyway. After a year I will finally get to go to a class!

I used to subscribe to the SH online training but they stopped updating it after a few months of my subscription. Is it an active forum again? There was some really great stuff in there when it was being updated.

 

[DCR]

I'm not sure. I was a member a while ago, before the 'change' and just resubscribed a few days ago. The old stuff isn't there anymore. Lowlight has all new videos.

 

[dbateman]

I'm not sure. I was a member a while ago, before the 'change' and just resubscribed a few days ago. The old stuff isn't there anymore. Lowlight has all new videos.

Are the new videos on par with the old ones ?

I was a subscriber previously and have been thinking of resubscribing, the old videos where some of the best information I have found.

 

[dbateman]

We all have limited time and money to invest in our passion of long range shooting. I am always interested to see where people invest these resources in order to become a competent long range marksman.

I would try for 2 training classer per year, 6 matches and 4 range sessions.

I'd buy a good 308 a Dillon 1050 1000 cases rifles only DVDs Franks DVD Bryan's books on ballistics.

Dryfire as much as I could load up my cases and go shoot 2 training classes a year would be a good start.

 

[DCR]

It's good stuff. Same info. Better vidoes.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

getting a known quality / accurate .22lr, with similar optic / reticle going to be used on the centerfire, and lots of consistent ammo shot at 100+ yards.

taking the same platform seriously, and applying the fundamentals every time the trigger is squeezed.

spending time researching techniques and the mechanics of what a rifle does in practice, researching internal and external ballistics and actually taking to understand what they mean.

then getting off the couch and trying it.

attending matches or "hanging out" at the range observing and asking tips on folks that are successful at what they are doing.

not getting caught up in all the how the moon's gravity effects the bullet flight stuff at first, just getting the basics down first - elevation and windage. don't worry about what a butterfly sneezing in australia will do to your POI / POA.

taking all of that and then properly planning what the long range centerfire platform will be.

spending a few hours a week on the internet and other avenues to find coupons, sales, group buys, etc. on the equipment you know is not just a fashion statement, but is really applicable to the goal.

spend more time dry firing.

once that's all together, spend time shooting support side - it's amazing how much stuff one forgets that shooting "backwards" reminds you of.

 

[PDXGS]

NRA Service Rifle with an AR-15.

This...DCM type rifle with an emphasis on slow, methodical, positional shooting is hard to beat. It's challenging and cost of entry is relatively low. I agree that .22 bolt action trainers with optics is a decent way to stay proficient on a budget but taking the aspects of learning to deal with increased recoil, like with a .223 is a disadvantage.
Once you're a decent shot with iron sights I'd suggest migrating to a scoped platform - preferably limited to .308-and making an investment in reloading gear and classes on long range fundamentals like wind reading and ranging.

 

[steve123]

The thing that I see as a present negative trend is that wouldbe Marksmen buy a bunch of stuff (gear), albeit most of it needed and then only have enough time to practice on a seldom basis.

Dry firing your tactical rifle has a few benefits but lacks immediate constructive feedback on where a supposed shot will actually hit.

Combining motor skill, the timing of a shot and basic rifle shooting fundamentals only comes from consistent practice. This practice can be achieved with a air rifle and usually on your own property or in your own premisis.

I agree that attending matches will teach you many things, mostly about which mistakes are the most costly and lessons which are hard learned and show up during stress induced in a match setting. Shooting in matches also helps one learn to cope with nervousness which is the worst enemy to shooting well. The best competition shooters in the world are finely honed and have paid their dues in every aspect. By perfecting their craft with practice, proving those skills out in their discipline while having overcome their nerves and learned from past mistakes.

One other thing that must be learned is how to judge wind. But more important is developing the "intuition" to know how far out to aim in the wind. Surprisingly shooting a air rifle at it's own longer distances helps develop that skill.

I personally have never taken a class on shooting. I'd rather spend the time and money buying components, practicing out in the FS or at home with my air rifles or shooting in matches.

 

[Phil1]

Snipers Hide Online Training.
Snipers Hide Training DVD.
Rifles Only DVD's.

After I have a rifle and some bullets. Take a class.

That's what I've been doing anyway. After a year I will finally get to go to a class!

Add good reloading equipment and a private range.

 

[George Az]

This won't cost you a thing. Stop drinking alcohol and no tobacco. Get 8 hours of sleep every night. Exercise - a lot of cardio get the sitting heart rate down. Lose 10-20 lbs.
One of the best things that happens with exercise is your shooting actually does improve.

 

[kraigWY]

I'm a firm believer that shooting sports should NOT be a rich man's game. That's why I like the CMP.

Buy a as issued surplus rifle & (if you don't reload) surplus ammo. The Combo should be able to shoot 3.5 MOA. Attend a CMP GSM Clinic. Most Clinics are free, or at worse $5-10 range fee.

Laugh all you want, the CMP Games (except for vintage sniper) are fired at 100-200 yards, the X-10 ring is 3.5 MOA. Most surplus rifles will shoot that. Yet you don't see many cleaned targets, even at the slow fire prone position.

Then practice, tons and tons of dryfiring. This sport is totally about the shooter, not the money one spends on equipment. Vintage Sniper matches are better, but more expensive.

Even the Mosin. They are about $125 now days, once you get the sights set where you can zero at 100 yards will work. Just have to learn the rifle. As issued w/ surplus ammo few cant shot 3.5 MOA.

When you get to where you can constantly shoot 3.5 MOA, cleaning the 200 yard NRA target, then move out.

Rifle marksmanship doesn't have to be expensive. Its not about the hardware (fancy expensive equipment) its about the software (fundamentals of marksmanship).

Lots of people are going to disagree, but none of them can produce the perfect scores, even in the prone slow fire, using a sling unsupported position.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I'm of the belief that if you're serious about it you should spend what you can afford to on your gear. When you have good gear you will know what you need to do because your gear isn't the limiting factor.

Other than that go shoot, shoot some more. Dry firing isn't going to teach you a damn thing about wind behavior.

 

[Pinecone]

In virtually every sport/hobby, it is around 90% the person and 10% the equipment.

But most people spend 90% of their time, effort, and money on the equipment.

Yes, there is a deminimus amount and quality of equipment, but typically that is a lot lower than most people think.

 

[redirt78]

Are the new videos on par with the old ones ?

I was a subscriber previously and have been thinking of resubscribing, the old videos where some of the best information I have found.

It is good stuff and as mentioned it's all new videos. There seems to be at least one new video each month. The most recent one was Semi Autos part 1

 

[pizzamanny]

Great advice.

 

[Masked]

Were I starting over again I'd do things a little differently but, I really learned from my mistakes so...I can't say I wouldn't make them again.

I would definitely start with a 308 - Reason being, it's an accessible cartridge AND you can learn a tremendous amount from the round, itself. Beyond 600 - Your math/book learning really come into play...Ballistics really start to matter and it's just an excellent starting point.

I'm not against the 6.5 but, around here, it's a hard round to find where-as, I can walk into any local shop and get 308 match ammo...

Frank's videos are great, I'm subscribed and they're invaluable on helping me progress my shooting but, you really need a starting point because follow through is absolutely key...I'd most definitely take a course.

I tried to teach myself proper follow through, I had input of course but, unfortunately, taught myself some horrible habits. Moving forward, I wish I had taken a class first...Would have saved me a couple hundred dollars...

A few of my Marine buddies go for yearly training just to brush up -- I don't think you could learn everything there is to know about marksmanship, always something new or a new way to dope...etc.

So to TLDR this --

I'd buy a solid rifle. - Buy once cry once.
Take a solid rifle course. - Learn proper skills and develop them.
Spend the rest on ammo, you're going to need it.

 

[clmayfield]

In virtually every sport/hobby, it is around 90% the person and 10% the equipment.

But most people spend 90% of their time, effort, and money on the equipment.

Yes, there is a deminimus amount and quality of equipment, but typically that is a lot lower than most people think.

Even within the shooting sports, the % that is the individual and the % that is the equipment changes. Benchrest is a very large % the equipment. Take a pistol sport like bowling pin shooting... that is pretty much all of the individual. If you look at F-class, the 10-ring is one MOA and the X-ring is half MOA at a thousand yards and plenty of people manage to clean that target. That means you need a sub-half MOA rifle at 100 yards to be competitive in that sport. It just depends on the sport as to the focus on the equipment and what is required. You can't win at rimfire benchrest with Federal ammo and a Ruger 10/22. If you could, you would see it on the leaderboard, and you just don't.

 

[Pinecone]

OTOH, there are people who could take the best benchrest rifle and ammo and still not win either.

Otherwise, anyone could just buy the right rifle and ammo and win.

There is a deminimus level of equipment, as I said before. To compete in benchrest, you need a benchrest rifle. Not a sporter rifle.

For F-class, if you have a 1/2 MOA rifle, but a 3 MOA shooter, you still don't win.

 

[kraigWY]

I don't care if its Bench Rest, F-Class, High Power, ISU/NRA Small Bore, Precision Rifle..........what ever the game, you have to have the Marksmanship Fundamentals down or you will never progress past spray and pray.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

getting a known quality / accurate .22lr, with similar optic / reticle going to be used on the centerfire, and lots of consistent ammo shot at 100+ yards.

taking the same platform seriously, and applying the fundamentals every time the trigger is squeezed.

spending time researching techniques and the mechanics of what a rifle does in practice, researching internal and external ballistics and actually taking to understand what they mean.

then getting off the couch and trying it.

attending matches or "hanging out" at the range observing and asking tips on folks that are successful at what they are doing.

not getting caught up in all the how the moon's gravity effects the bullet flight stuff at first, just getting the basics down first - elevation and windage. don't worry about what a butterfly sneezing in australia will do to your POI / POA.

taking all of that and then properly planning what the long range centerfire platform will be.

spending a few hours a week on the internet and other avenues to find coupons, sales, group buys, etc. on the equipment you know is not just a fashion statement, but is really applicable to the goal.

spend more time dry firing.

once that's all together, spend time shooting support side - it's amazing how much stuff one forgets that shooting "backwards" reminds you of.

^^^ Perhaps the only person on this thread to bring up a .22 and doing a lot of short range highly-accurate shooting. Right on, Top. Air rifle (quality one) is a good move, too. There is no substitute for trigger time and you won't get as much with a $1 per round centerfire as you will with a quality air rifle or a good .22.

The same skills that you will use on a 50 foot range or a 50 yard range with a .22 will translate to great skills when you move up to the expensive stuff.

Get the best .22 you can find... Winchester 52, Kimber army trainer, Remington 514 (I think that is their version), used biathlon rifle, etc. Start with open sights, graduate to good glass on top. And shoot a lot. Nothing will prepare you better. You can shoot 500 rounds of .22 for what it will cost you to shoot 60 'spensive centerfire Creedmore's and match grade other stuff. Volume pays off on the range -- if you treat every cheap .22 as if it is a match grade centerfire round when it comes to trigger pull, position, cheek weld, etc.

Next... the world will be your oyster. Whatever you pick up after that... benchrest, service rifle, DCM, long rang silhouette... you will do well at any of them once you have mastered the rimfire.

My 2 percent of a dollar. YMMV, as seen on TV, etc. Listen to Top Predator.

Cheers and Merry Christmas all.

Sirhr

 

[clmayfield]

OTOH, there are people who could take the best benchrest rifle and ammo and still not win either.

Obviously, you need to have the skills. But I kick people's ass in my club on the 22LR at 100 yards because I have a tack driving rifle and use expensive ammo. There are guys at my skill level that if I swapped gear with them, would kick my ass. Somebody who gets enough trigger time can get to the point where their weak link is the ammo and equipment pretty quickly in the bench rest discipline. By design, there is very little interface with the rifle. It is an equipment-driven discipline. This is not to say there is no skill involved, it is just that the equipment plays a larger role in success in the sport.

Or look at rimfire... in Benchrest, accuracy is the goal, and equipment is how you remain competitive. In 3 position, equipment matters, but it is much more shooter-dependent and 3-position shooters will trade inherent accuracy in a second for lock-time. When you reach the upper echelon, the real competitors look closely at their equipment. There is a reason that David Tubb invented his own rifle and his own cartridge to stay competitive in High Power.