Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

[SABuzzard]

I'm new to handloading so I'm really focusing on loading safe, consistent rounds well within the specifications given in commercial manuals. So I was surprised to see conflicting information in many of these resources. Specifically for a 308 Win, 168 HPBT, and Varget powder. Lyman, Sierra and Varget (on the bottle) show the max safe loads ranging from 41 grains up to 46+ grains. That seems like too wide a range when discussing something involving safety.

What's the rule of thumb? Start out with a minimum load and work up looking for signs of excessive pressure? If all looks good is it prudent to pass Sierra's listed max load if it's still under Varget's?

...and maybe I'm over thinking this. I may not need to be anywhere near the max loads to achieve my accuracy/performance goals. I just don't have enough experience to tell.

thoughts?

 

[Zion4]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

I've talked to a lot of people and gotten a wide range of opinions, but most people (who I've talked to) generally follow the Lyman book. These same people also generally say that Hornady runs a bit hot sometimes. I do not have a lot of personal experience with reloading for I'm just getting into it, but that is what I've heard.

I personally use Lyman.

 

[wburke2010]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

It mostly depends on your rifle. The reason that all the books have different max loads and min loads is because they are using different rifles for test results and not every rifle shoots the same load equally. The only way to tell a max load in YOUR rifle is to start below the book max and slowly work your way to it until one you get to the velocity that you want to shoot at and is accurate or two you start to see signs of pressure. for example I am doing load development in my rifle now and book max is 55 grains but at 57 grains I am only slightly seeing signs of pressure and that is only in starting to get a heavy bolt lift. Pretty much the answer to your question is yes you can shoot above book max as long as it is not showing pressure signs in your rifle.
Walter

 

[Rob01]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

Look at hodgdon's site under their reloading data. They make the powder. Min 42grns and Max 46grns of varget.

Sierra is way too conservative. They list like 42 grns as the Max with the 175s and that is hodgdon's starting load. Most people find their load between 43.5 to 45 so I trust hodgdon. That said though you should always work up for safety as different brass and barrels can effect what is a safe load.

 

[ED_RN]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

you have to pay attention to the details
Sierra used Fed Brass, Hodgdon online data used WW brass, and other sources will use other brands....so that is the key sort out the details ie case volumes vary from brand to brand.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

Knowing how to spot pressure, before pressure becomes the problem, is your huckleberry.

That said, you'll reach a safe workable top end load via OCW before you hit the redline with your components......

 

[Bob 964]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

Get familiar with ladder testing and OCW testing procedures and use one or the other (or both) to determine the best load combination for your gun.

When selecting a recommended maximum charge weight to base my testing on, I tend to place more confidence in the recommendations of the powder manufacturers.

 

[Hunt]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

Among the Lee, Hornady, Nosler and Sierra books, I have found the Lyman book to be the best in terms of representing actual velocities in a factory chamber. When dealing with a custom barrel/tight chamber (i.e. 95 Palma), I work up carefully.

Sierra's loading manual is about worthless unless you know someone that likes to take chances when loading and then it makes for a nice gift.

What the powder manufacturers state on the bottle is pretty close to the upper end. If all you have is that data, use that data but work your loads up....You should always work your loads up and not take someone elses information as gospel.

 

[Leaddog]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

If you are shooting the 168 SMK's, it's hard to beat the 42 grs of 4064 load. For 175's, Varget and Reloader 15 are good choices.

Work up your loads, especially if you don't know exactly where you are to or in the lands. Pressure can vary greatly if you are jamming your bullets into the lands.

 

[mtrmn]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

All these sources really just give you a general area to start your research. It's pretty much up to you and your gun to find the max amount of pressure for your loads.

I have found that loads that work well in my bolt gun will show pressure signs in my gas guns. Something about my AR's-probably overgassed and probably not a true 5.56 chamber- makes them much more subject to pressure signs than other guns of the same caliber.

Also in gas guns looking at the primer for flattening doesn't seem to work well for pressure signs. I've found that when my pressures are above max for my ARs the imprint of the bolt face will show up on my brass. There will be ejector "swipes", shiny places where the ejector scraped across the headstamp, showing up just before the actual brass flows into the ejector hole in the bolt face. This is an indicator to stop and rethink your loads before going forward again in your load development. YMMV

 

[264highlandhunter]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

What's "hot" in one rifle may be mild in another and vice versa. Thats why the broad range and also why you have to work up from minimums to see where your rifle is happy.

 

[SABuzzard]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Squarenut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get familiar with ladder testing and OCW testing procedures and use one or the other (or both) to determine the best load combination for your gun.

When selecting a recommended maximum charge weight to base my testing on, I tend to place more confidence in the recommendations of the powder manufacturers. </div></div>

Thanks - OCW/Ladder info is very helpful. I'm starting to see the bigger picture of developing an "optimal" load.

 

[SABuzzard]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

Thanks guys. Great advice. I'm starting to realize the true depth of handloading. My take-away is start low, pay attention to detail, watch for signs of pressure, move up slowly and use OCW/Ladder to find that sweet spot.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SABuzzard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks guys. Great advice. I'm starting to realize the true depth of handloading. My take-away is start low, pay attention to detail, watch for signs of pressure, move up slowly and use OCW/Ladder to find that sweet spot.
</div></div>

Reloading, 101.......

 

[JoshcBoucher]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

All of the above is great input. Personally, I like a lighter load, for a few reasons. I'm just shooting paper. The brass, and rifle, aren't as "stressed", along with my shoulder.{Spoken as an "older man"}. I never have to worry about getting a bolt in my eye. And, I don't use as much powder, so I'm "more" PC about global warming.{ Just kidding, on the last comment!}

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

<span style="font-style: italic">"Lyman, Sierra and Varget (on the bottle) show the max safe loads ranging from 41 grains up to 46+ grains. That seems like too wide a range when discussing something involving safety."</span>

Yeah, it does seem that way. So, which is 'right'? Would you believe all of them; right for their rifle and components and the directions the ducks were flying that day. Meaning what you see is more atributable to the rifles they used than anything else and your's is different from their's.

<span style="font-style: italic">"What's the rule of thumb? Start out with a minimum load and work up looking for signs of excessive pressure?"</span>

Yep. That's the ONLY way we can accomidate the additional variable our own rig, components and ducks throw into the mix; this stuff is much more of an art than a science.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joshboucher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All of the above is great input. Personally, I like a lighter load, for a few reasons. I'm just shooting paper. The brass, and rifle, aren't as "stressed", along with my shoulder.{Spoken as an "older man"}. I never have to worry about getting a bolt in my eye. And, I don't use as much powder, so I'm "more" PC about global warming.{ Just kidding, on the last comment!} </div></div>

As long as you don't drop below the minimum charge for any given powder you're not going to have a problem....still, as a matter of practice and principle, work UP, even if it's not that far "up".

 

[Powder_Burns]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

Lawyer loads.
Bear in mind the different load manuals are referring to different seating depths, different bullets, different primers, and different cases. Then, if you cross-reference prior publications, you will see the max loads have been getting lower in certain instances.

Proof loads..
http://kwk.us/pressures.html

Rifles/handguns are tested with proof loads to ensure they can handle the stresses of firing live ammo..these are generally 30-40% hotter than the published 'max' load. I'm not suggesting you go ahead and disregard published max loads, but rather go by the pressure signs your cases leave you. If you are experiencing blown primers, cratering, case head expansion, etc. and are under the published max you need to back off a few grains and acknowledge your rifle's max load. If you have worked up to the published max and don't see any pressure signs, its your call if you want to push the envelope or call it quits at max. Remember its your personal safety at risk if you disregard the warnings.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

Yeah. All I can say is every one of those books is general guidelines, a snapshot in time. Your rifle is the ultimate test chamber and if you start with certain components, that should get you into the ballpark so that you can switch as it pleases you, primers or bullet or cases, but you have to remember that "their" data was derived with "their" components, so use that data and steer a parallel course until you reach the limits of your particular gun with those particular components. (whew, have not typed such a run on sentence since 6th grade)

Two things. You have to remember that many , if not all current manuals were written by lawyers and there is probably a lot more performance to be had, if you know what pressure signs to look for. And, you understand that ambient temperatures can change everything.

The other thing, and what I thought the previous writer was referring to, is an interesting little effect called "detonation" (maybe others) but that's the one I am familiar with. This can happen with a extremely light load, light bullet, cold temperature, etc., etc. It's a delayed reaction, fairly rare, but possible and can blow up your gun, under the right circumstances. More like a hand grenade. Be careful with testing loads below what is recommended, on a whole range of variables. BB

 

[B y r o n]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

One of the interesting things I found out years ago was that Sierra's load data does not specify "Maximum" load. Their tables simply show the last load they tested to. They may have stopped because they ran out of powder or were trying to make a print deadline for their manual.

Those that do list a "Maximum" value did so for a specific brand of brass and primer. That does not mean it is safe if you use other brass, primers, or even other brands of bullets or bullet types even if they weight the same.

It's also been pointed out that what is safe in one rifle may not be safe in all rifles. Start low and work up slowly. If you developed it in winter start low again in summer or you may have an over pressure load on your hands.

 

[dsnipe]

Re: Beginners Confusion... Who's got it right?

I always check with manufacturer and get there max and work loads up to that. So many differences as noted in books. People who make the powder know what it can do. Best of luck.