benefits of a "good" press

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aiyadude

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Sep 16, 2011
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#1
I am aware that some brands may be better than others when it comes to reloading, like redding, dillon, rcbs, etc..
i own a Lee challenger press with a breech lock which in my opinion is a workhorse and does it's job very well. i do use rcbs comp dies and lyman ram primer. i made sure to tighten all the screws and bolts and stuff to make sure there is no wiggle or play on any moving parts. i do believe my reloading practices are down and pat and has given me consistent results.

i have some money to spend so is there any real reason to buy a "higher quality" press, like a dillon?
 
#3
Re: benefits of a "good" press

When my Challenger broke I ended up upgrading to a Lee Classic Cast because it was less than $100, had a much better depriming operation (the primers fall through the center of the ram, it NEVER loses one onto the floor), and I needed a larger press for some of the longer calibers. The Forster Co-Ax is another great option but is quite a bit more expensive and isn't well suited to 338LM. The Co-Ax's main argument are a superior priming system and improved concentricity.

If you're happy with your press and the ammo it produces then there's no reason to upgrade.
 
#4
Re: benefits of a "good" press

i figured that was the case. i changed out my dies because I was unhappy with the inconsistencies but after that everything was great. thanks for the input!
 
#5
Re: benefits of a "good" press

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 71firebird400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When my Challenger broke I ended up upgrading to a Lee Classic Cast because it was less than $100, had a much better depriming operation (the primers fall through the center of the ram, it NEVER loses one onto the floor), and I needed a larger press for some of the longer calibers. The Forster Co-Ax is another great option but is quite a bit more expensive and isn't well suited to 338LM. The Co-Ax's main argument are a superior priming system and improved concentricity.

If you're happy with your press and the ammo it produces then there's no reason to upgrade. </div></div>
The Co-Ax works perfectly with big magnum cases.
I load my 338/408Ct on it wit no issues.
The problem was not with fitting the case rather with some of Readings competition seaters.

New Co-Ax presses have been redesigned to work with the Redding dies, but if you find a used one 5 minutes at a machine shop will cut the required clearance.
The Co-Ax collects primers in a neatly sealed can...there is no better press made. I highly recommend it!

All Challengers break in the lower pivot system....mine did too.
Get a better press when it does.
 
#6
Re: benefits of a "good" press

Yes, i saw a video online about someone having that part break. It worries me a little that one day that thing will break and my upper body slamming into the press due to the build up inertia. I do like the design of the co-ax and how it uses a different style of lever. I will consider that if it comes to changing out my press.
 
#7
Re: benefits of a "good" press

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aiyadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am aware that some brands may be better than others when it comes to reloading, like redding, dillon, rcbs, etc..
i own a Lee challenger press with a breech lock which in my opinion is a workhorse and does it's job very well. i do use rcbs comp dies and lyman ram primer. i made sure to tighten all the screws and bolts and stuff to make sure there is no wiggle or play on any moving parts. i do believe my reloading practices are down and pat and has given me consistent results.

i have some money to spend so is there any real reason to buy a "higher quality" press, like a dillon? </div></div>


You might want to spend some money on some good measurement tools for your cases and loaded rounds. You might be surprised at what you find.

The very best tool I've found for measuring cases and ogive height is the Redding Instant Comparator. I also have caliper based Possum Hollow/Hornady bullet and case comparator. While the PH/Hornady comparator setup can give you some very useful information (especially compared with not having any type of comparator) about your cases and loaded rounds it is not as repeatable or consistent as the Redding die/dial indicator based comparator tool which allows you to reliably measure 0.0001" differences in case length, shoulder height, ogive height from base and bullet COAL.

As you can imagine this tool becomes invaluable to repeatable precise set-up of your dies if you are working in a single stage press. Don't be fooled into thinking that your locking rings are putting the dies back at the same height they were the last time you used it. And don't even think that your high-end bullet seater is actually seating the bullet ogive where you set the die to last time it was in the press. You might also be amazed at the differences lubes can make in sizing and shoulder height repeatability.

I also have a Sinclair concentricity gauge which is really easy to get good measurements from but only does this one function. The RCBS case gauge is probably a better general use case tool than the Sinclair tool because it can also be used to measure case neck thickness and help you find cases with heads about to fail. But the RCBS tool is not quite as easy to setup or use.

The Redding Instant Comparator combined with a good concentricity gauge like Sinclair, RCBS, Forster, Hornady (and a few others) can tell you where you have room to improve your case prep and bullet seating. These tools can also be used to show you if the changes you are making to your case prep and loading process are actually helping or hurting. IMO this is a better place to spend your money if you are trying to improve your reloading process. Who knows you might find that your press works just fine.

These tools helped me find simple to ways to change some of my hardware and reloading workflow for measurably consistent and measurably better finished precision .308Win rounds coming out of my Dillon 550B press.

HTH!
 
#9
Re: benefits of a "good" press

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X-fan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 71firebird400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When my Challenger broke I ended up upgrading to a Lee Classic Cast because it was less than $100, had a much better depriming operation (the primers fall through the center of the ram, it NEVER loses one onto the floor), and I needed a larger press for some of the longer calibers. The Forster Co-Ax is another great option but is quite a bit more expensive and isn't well suited to 338LM. The Co-Ax's main argument are a superior priming system and improved concentricity.

If you're happy with your press and the ammo it produces then there's no reason to upgrade. </div></div>
The Co-Ax works perfectly with big magnum cases.
I load my 338/408Ct on it wit no issues.
The problem was not with fitting the case rather with some of Readings competition seaters.

New Co-Ax presses have been redesigned to work with the Redding dies, but if you find a used one 5 minutes at a machine shop will cut the required clearance.
The Co-Ax collects primers in a neatly sealed can...there is no better press made. I highly recommend it!

All Challengers break in the lower pivot system....mine did too.
Get a better press when it does.
</div></div>


Durr, yeah you're right. I forgot about the handle change, thanks for catching that.
 
#10
Re: benefits of a "good" press

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could go into a whole diatribe about quality tools compared to cheap shit. Good tools cost a lot of money and in almost every case will pay for itself as long as it is used enough. </div></div>

Very true. I have some tools that I bought 40 years ago that are still in use today. A cheap measuring tool is almost as bad as no measurement tool. The reason is they give you the impression that you have good data to work from but usually the cheap measurement tools cost you more in the long run because you trusted their bad measurements when in fact they were bad.

Of course a cheap tool purchased and altered to a specific task is often the only tool that can do the job but this is a rare case.
 
#11
Re: benefits of a "good" press

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aiyadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am aware that some brands may be better than others when it comes to reloading, like redding, dillon, rcbs, etc..
i own a Lee challenger press with a breech lock which in my opinion is a workhorse and does it's job very well. i do use rcbs comp dies and lyman ram primer. i made sure to tighten all the screws and bolts and stuff to make sure there is no wiggle or play on any moving parts. i do believe my reloading practices are down and pat and has given me consistent results.

i have some money to spend so is there any real reason to buy a "higher quality" press, like a dillon? </div></div>

OP, I'm still using my 30+ year old Dillon 550B press that was originally not a Dillon 550B press. Dillon upgraded my press a few years after I purchased it when I told them what I wanted to do with it.

Here is what it has become and how I currently have it setup to load no turn high-precision .308Win rounds. I use the setup as if it were a single stage press that happens to have multiple stations. This is a Dillon 550B press with a Whidden Gunworks CNC'd floating toolhead modified to clamp in the Dillon by UniqueTek. Whidden is modifying their CNC'd floating toolhead to allow the use of floating dies in all four positions on the toolhead to allow improved workflow. The Dillon press also has a UniqueTek Turbo bearing which reduces the vertical play of cases being processed. In the photo you can see the Redding Competition bushing die, Redding Instant Comparator, Redding Type S F/L bushing die and a Redding Competition bullet seater.

This setup makes measurably very consistent and concentric finished rounds without neck turning. On my 30 year old R&P brass that has been reloaded 10-20 times this setup can hold actual measured case shoulders to 0.0005", (I run 0.002" headspace) bullet ogive to 0.001" with total indicated run out 0.000" to 0.002".

dillion550btoolhead.jpg
 
#12
Re: benefits of a "good" press

<span style="font-style: italic">"Yes, i saw a video online about someone having that part break. It worries me a little that one day that thing will break and my upper body slamming into the press due to the build up inertia."</span>

If you're worried about that there are two things you need to keep in mind. 1) Don't lean on the thing like a gorrilla in heat and use a bit of good case lube to ease the sizing pressure. 2) Keep the bolt holding the toggle block halves together tight, letting it get loose changes the geometry of the lever stress and leads to splitting the blocks even with normal pressure. And, 3), if alum alloy bothers you avoid Dillon and Hornady presses too.

How well we make ammo depends much more on the user than the press. Bottom line, the only automatic thing you would gain with any progressive press compared to your single stage Lee is more output in a given time.
 
#13
Re: benefits of a "good" press

I've never heard of a press breaking due to the aluminum alloy, I've heard and seen them break from the linkage, usually made of better materials such as steel, but never the aluminum. Get a good press with strong linkage and it'll last you a lifetime. You're challenger should be fine so long as you don't manhandle the thing and put all your weight and strength behind it, as stated before, lube it correctly and apply the right amount of pressure and your challenger should last.
 
#14
Re: benefits of a "good" press

great information everyone! thank you again. I have grown into the habit of checking the headspacing and bullet seating using the hornady comparators every 5 rounds or whenever i feel in doubt. some days I get consistent results, some days i catch one or two that need an extra run through the press. that redding instant comparator is definitely something interesting to consider.

now when it comes to lubing, what is your take on using that fine powdered mica for the neck?
 
#16
Re: benefits of a "good" press

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aiyadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">great information everyone! thank you again. I have grown into the habit of checking the headspacing and bullet seating using the hornady comparators every 5 rounds or whenever i feel in doubt. some days I get consistent results, some days i catch one or two that need an extra run through the press. that redding instant comparator is definitely something interesting to consider.

now when it comes to lubing, what is your take on using that fine powdered mica for the neck?

</div></div>


Aiyadude,

If you are having slight variations in case shoulder height you might want to look at your lube. Over the years I have used a bunch of different lubes looking for what worked best. I tried various roll on water based stuff the who knows what they are spray on lubes and none of them really worked any differently or better. At some point I purchased some Imperial sizing wax to fill out an on-line order but didn't get around to trying it right away.

One day the Imperial sizing wax was staring up at me on the bench so I decided to give the wax a try. The next day was the day I threw out all the other case lubes I owned. It turned out that Imperial sizing wax was the last bit I needed to get the most consistent sizing results during case preparation. I also use Imperial's neck lube even though I am using Redding Ti coated bushings. Smooth and slippery helps to produce more consistent sizing as does following a two-step neck and full length resizing workflow as suggested by German Salizar in his many articles on <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">"The Rifleman's Journ</span>al"</span>

Ironically the only real problem you will have that you will need an additional press to get the most benefit during die setup. The Redding Instant Comparator is a press mounted tool so you will need an additional press. The Redding IC allows you to use a gauge (this could be a loaded round with perfect dimensions, the included SAAMI minimum spec gauge or the headspace gauge that fits your rifle's chamber) to set the tool to compare the output of your press and dies as they are currently setup allowing you to quickly zero in to exactly where you need your case length, shoulder height and bullet ogive to be.

Once you have the die or seater setup to spec in one single stage press you can set the Redding IC in the other press to quickly confirm the finished cases or rounds. What I found with my modified Dillon 550 is that once setup correctly there is virtually no variation in case dimension or ogive of the finished rounds. I routinely check 1 round in 10 just to QC my loaded rounds but I have not seen any problems requiring attention.

The release of the Redding Instant Comparator is basically why I am using my old Dillon 550B press to load precision .308Win rounds instead of multiple single stage presses bolted all over my workbench. The Dillon 550's multiple stations allows me to setup the sizing dies for the particular rifle chambers I load for and setup for the exact dimensions I have recorded for that rifle's chamber and know with a very high level of confidence I am assembling virtually identical rounds that are in practical terms perfect for that rifle.

HTH!
 
#17
Re: benefits of a "good" press


Aiyadude,

I had a good idea, buy a nicer more robust press with a good primer system to use for reloading. Use your old press setup with the new Redding Instant Comparator you also bought. You would use up your available reloading funds (and more!) and be helping to promote the economy to boot!
 
#18
Re: benefits of a "good" press

"I had a good idea, buy a nicer more robust press ..."

I'm curious; what would a "nicer more robust press" accomplish when his present press (and Lyman primer system) is working fine?
 
#19
Re: benefits of a "good" press

thank you very much for the input! you know i was look at that imperial sizing wax and thought about getting some as soon as i run out of lube. i use the rcbs ones that come with the pad and all. i should try it out!
 
#21
Re: benefits of a "good" press

I think some operative questions would be 'What's a bad press', and 'what makes a press bad'.

I've only ever used an RL550B (bought used going on two decades back). and I've heard it being called both good and bad.

I think I can say equivocally that ammunition issues are not the source of any of my own marksmanship accuracy problems.

I think that a stellar press makes significant differences in the quality of ammunition.

But I also think that a lot of that benefit could be wasted on a lot of rifles and shooters. Folks think that good ammo and good guns will automatically make them a good shooter. There's nothing automatic about that. Bad ammo and bad guns can definitely do the opposite, but that original assumption is no slam-dunk.

Greg
 
#22
Re: benefits of a "good" press

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I had a good idea, buy a nicer more robust press ..."

I'm curious; what would a "nicer more robust press" accomplish when his present press (and Lyman primer system) is working fine? </div></div>


By now the OP has loaded some ammo on his current press and may find he would like his press to to do some things differently. A new press would give him the opportunity to correct any shortcomings of his current press. I had loaded for years on a wide variety of different make and model presses and dies mounted all around my uncle's garage. When I wanted to load higher volume handgun ammo and bought a Dillon. The amazing thing about the Dillon 550 is how flexible and adaptable it has been all these years. I've though about buying a single press to perform utility operations but never actually found a need for it except for the possibility of having full time access to the Redding Instant Comparator when I make another change to how I load rifle rounds.

In the same fashion a second better press would allow the OP to have a press for use with loading dies. The OP's existing press could be used with the Redding Instant Comparator and as a good way to decap empty brass keeping his primary press cleaner.
 
#23
Re: benefits of a "good" press

the analogy i was referring to more is like how one would start off with having a stock gun and an entry-level bushnell scope. the gun is capable of many things especially in the hands of the right person. but to me as a beginner its something to make amateur mistakes with and make it a learning process. as i get better, i could move on to getting a better stock and better scope, to not limit my potential and really fine tune myself and my weapon to get better overall results.

so would changing over from my Lee press to something like a dillon be analogous to changing from a bushnell scope to a nightforce or USO.

at the same note, i have been shooting with my bushnell 10x for quite some time now and i have made great improvements as a shooter while my scope has not failed me yet. i do plan on upgrading to a better scope that gives me better optical quality and better parallax control and whatnot. just like how my Lee press has been a great and loyal tool for me, and by getting a better press could it make things a little better for me or improve the quality of the rounds i make.

but the point is, i am happy with my reloading setup and it produces ammo that i can count on. i just thought I'd spoil myself and get something that is considered to have great quality and value.
 
#24
Re: benefits of a "good" press


If you are happy with the way your reloads are shooting don't mess with it. If you want to see what could be improved about your loaded rounds buy some good measurement tools.

As begining shooters most folks improve quickly with some instruction. Getting really good is just time and experience. Maybe you could take a class or get some coaching, buy a bunch of primers powder and bullets and get more time behind your gun.

HTH!
 
#25
Re: benefits of a "good" press

"... by getting a better press could it make things a little better for me or improve the quality of the rounds i make."

No. Not unless your present press actually has a failing.

Unlike a scope, high grade ammo cannot be assured by the price or color of the box the tools come in. All of Lee's presses are designed for precision milling on modern CNC machinery and the alignment of the parts is quite precise so a 'better' press is a mote issue. Few people realise it but the alum alloy Lee uses is actually more rigid than cast iron, even if it's not as massively strong, but anything strong enough to do the job will not benefit from being made stronger.

While Dillon's progressive presses are quite capabile of producing high quanities of ammo good enough for normal match shooting they are NOT normally used to make the absolute best possible ammo, virtually everyone uses a single stage press for doing that. And, IMHO, which single stage press is used may be the least important question we may ask; dies, components, load development and loading skill vastly exceeds the press for turning out high grade ammo.

 
#26
Re: benefits of a "good" press

totally forgot dillon doesnt make single stage. but it was just for reference. thank you everyone for you input. its nice to have people to discuss things like this with.
 
#27
Re: benefits of a "good" press

While Dillon does not make single stage presses; any of their presses that do not employ an automatic advance feature could be as easily considered as four single stage presses, each one set up with one of the dies you need for eash step. When you look at it that way, the price tag and level of convenience makes them look like the genuine bargain that are. There's pretty much no reason not to do all the cases through one stage, then all through the next, using the press in what I call the 'single stage mode'.

Greg
 
#28
Re: benefits of a "good" press

In principle, I don't disagree with Greg about loading sequentually by using a turret manually but I do in application. I much prefer to batch process my ammo through each step rather than size/decap/recap/expand/charge/seat before moving to the next case. I've found that repeatedly doing the same thing until I've completed each step helps me maintain a more consistant rythum. With a practiced 'two finger shuffle' I can exchange cases almost as fast as I can turn a turrent and make sure it's fairly well indexed so there's little difference in actual loading speed. By batch processing I can inspect cases as I go and visually insure they are done the same, including charging.

No big deal, just a matter of personal preference for your consideration.
 
#29
Re: benefits of a "good" press

I recently changed from a rock chucker pro to a Lee Classic cast that I converted to take the Hornady lock and load bushings. I'm still a little skeptical about the bushings because they bump up vertically a bit but so far things are shooting well.

What's everyone's thoughts on the hornady bushings?

Bb
 
#30
Re: benefits of a "good" press

Bb, I just installed this conversion in my Rock Chucker yesterday. I like the way it works. Not sure if it will introduce any play into the setup yet.
 
#31
Re: benefits of a "good" press

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Burleyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently changed from a rock chucker pro to a Lee Classic cast that I converted to take the Hornady lock and load bushings. I'm still a little skeptical about the bushings because they bump up vertically a bit but so far things are shooting well.

What's everyone's thoughts on the hornady bushings?

Bb </div></div>

Well on my challenger press i do not notice any vertical movement UPWARD, rather i notice it going downward a hair when i am removing the brass. but then again this is only when i am resizing and i constantly check my brass if it has indeed been bumped or not.
 
#32
Re: benefits of a "good" press

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Burleyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recently changed from a rock chucker pro to a Lee Classic cast that I converted to take the Hornady lock and load bushings. I'm still a little skeptical about the bushings because they bump up vertically a bit but so far things are shooting well.

What's everyone's thoughts on the hornady bushings?

Bb</div></div>

Some time ago I posted a question about the Hornady LNL bushings, and received the answer that intuitively makes sense: the LNL setup positively controls the vertical amount of resizing(at the top of the stroke) but allows the die to float side to side a bit. This should help with concentricity. The potential downside is if you had the die "crooked" enough to affect COAL or resizing length- but I haven't seen this in any way I can measure with my calipers. I like the system, which has taken the pain out of single stage press caliber changes. YMMV.
 
#33
Re: benefits of a "good" press

From what I have experienced, the Die selection is far more important than press choice in terms of final product consistency and low run-out. That being said I am happier with my Big Boss II single stage than I was my Rock Chucker primarily due to the more solid feel. YMMV.
 
#34
Re: benefits of a "good" press

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In principle, I don't disagree with Greg about loading sequentually by using a turret manually but I do in application. I much prefer to batch process my ammo through each step rather than size/decap/recap/expand/charge/seat before moving to the next case. I've found that repeatedly doing the same thing until I've completed each step helps me maintain a more consistant rythum. With a practiced 'two finger shuffle' I can exchange cases almost as fast as I can turn a turrent and make sure it's fairly well indexed so there's little difference in actual loading speed. By batch processing I can inspect cases as I go and visually insure they are done the same, including charging.

No big deal, just a matter of personal preference for your consideration. </div></div>

Fuzz,

If I understand your post correctly you and Greg are saying you both use the same method.

I perform one die operation on 100 cases on one of my Dillon 550's positions. Then I perform the next die operation on the same 100 cases in another Dillon 550 position and so on until all required operations are are complete and I have 100 finished rounds. Somewhere in the process I also scale and drop 100 powder charges too. I usually do 100 cases as I am using 50 case loading blocks because this is what fits comfortably on my workbench and the fact that I usually buy bullets in 100 count boxes. Using my vintage Dillon 550 as a single stage press which just happens to have four positions requiring no die changes or changes to the die setup I found I can produce the most consistent loaded rounds this way.
 
#35
Re: benefits of a "good" press

"Fuzz, If I understand your post correctly you and Greg are saying you both use the same method."

Upon re-reading Greg's post I believe you are correct, thank you. I misunderstood what he said, it's my bad. I've agreed with Greg so often that even when I thought we finally didn't, we did!
wink.gif
 
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