Bergara Issue that Frank Mentioned

HammerForged

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Hey guys. Frank mentioned an issue on the podcast with the Bergara rails coming loose. Anyone know specifics? Is it Bergara factory rails?

I am about to attend a two day class with my Bergara B14 HMR in 6.5 Creedmoor. It has an Area 419 rail. Wondering if I need to keep a close eye on it or if I should be good. And yes, I torqued it to specs and used blue locktite. :)

Thanks for any help.
 
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nikonNUT

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    Can't comment on a Bergara CF (Have a B14R) but I have EGW rails on all my bolt guns (One in .338LM) and with the 20 in/lb torque spec and a wee dab of blue lock-tite they have never moved so I think you should be golden!
     

    Terry Cross

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    Hey guys. Frank mentioned an issue on the podcast with the Bergara rails coming loose. Anyone know specifics? Is it Bergara factory rails?

    I am about to attend a two day class with my Bergara B14 HMR in 6.5 Creedmoor. It has an Area 419 rail. Wondering if I need to keep a close eye on it or if I should be good. And yes, I torqued it to specs and used blue locktite. :)

    Thanks for any help.
    Not speaking for Frank but I can share that we commonly have problems from Bergaras that are brought to our L.E. Basic and Advanced courses.

    Two issues most consistent are scope base coming loose and extractors getting jammed up.

    The scope base issue has included Bergaras that had them removed and reinstalled with LocTite. The issue is that they are putting a cheap ass Pic rail scope base on the guns that have no recoil lug to engage the receiver. So.....every shot results in the 4 mounting screws taking the shear load.

    I can say that we also see this phenomenon with rifles other than Bergara rifles that use similar bases from EGW and others that have a slick bottom.

    For comparison, look at the bottom of NightForce, Badger Ord, Seekins Precision and I think Area 419.
    Those have a recoil lug or lip that is machined into the bottom which seats against the front edge of the ejection port on Rem 700 style receivers. They also have elongated/eliptical screw holes and countersinks that allow the base to be "seated" forward before tightening the 4 mounting screws. These bases cost more because they are more complicated to machine however they are properly designed to transfer the shear forces from recoil directly to the receiver.

    Combination of heavy scopes (Ex. Gen II Razor ) + medium to light rifle + .308 Win or bigger chambering increases the likelihood of the cheap bases coming loose regardless of LocTite, etc.

    ETA: MARS rails are notorious for this as well.

    ./
     

    chevy_man

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    Green lock-tite on the base, blue on the screws, and send it.

    I've yet to have a base come loose on any rifle, other than a 597 with the #6's into aluminum. That one got 8-40's and jb-weld after a sanding on the rail and receiver.... (it may be hack, but it hasn't broke again).
     

    EotS

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    Not speaking for Frank but I can share that we commonly have problems from Bergaras that are brought to our L.E. Basic and Advanced courses.

    Two issues most consistent are scope base coming loose and extractors getting jammed up.

    The scope base issue has included Bergaras that had them removed and reinstalled with LocTite. The issue is that they are putting a cheap ass Pic rail scope base on the guns that have no recoil lug to engage the receiver. So.....every shot results in the 4 mounting screws taking the shear load.

    I can say that we also see this phenomenon with rifles other than Bergara rifles that use similar bases from EGW and others that have a slick bottom.

    For comparison, look at the bottom of NightForce, Badger Ord, Seekins Precision and I think Area 419.
    Those have a recoil lug or lip that is machined into the bottom which seats against the front edge of the ejection port on Rem 700 style receivers. They also have elongated/eliptical screw holes and countersinks that allow the base to be "seated" forward before tightening the 4 mounting screws. These bases cost more because they are more complicated to machine however they are properly designed to transfer the shear forces from recoil directly to the receiver.

    Combination of heavy scopes (Ex. Gen II Razor ) + medium to light rifle + .308 Win or bigger chambering increases the likelihood of the cheap bases coming loose regardless of LocTite, etc.

    ETA: MARS rails are notorious for this as well.

    ./
    So, the issue with the bases has nothing to do with Bergara, so much as it does a non recoil lug base.
     

    308pirate

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    I wonder why the bases (neither of which has a recoil lug) in both my 12 lb Howas (223 and 308) with relatively heavy scopes (Steiner, SWFA) have never so much as moved a mm in thousands of rounds.

    Nor have I had to replace any sheared screws.
     
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    EotS

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    I wonder why the bases (neither of which has a recoil lug) in both my 12 lb Howas (223 and 308) with relatively heavy scopes (Steiner, SWFA) have never so much as moved a mm in thousands of rounds.

    Nor have I had to replace any sheared screws.
    Because 223,and 308.
     

    Reload10

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    Either go to an integral pic rail action, or red loctite the scope base and screws.
     

    THEIS

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  • So, the issue with the bases has nothing to do with Bergara, so much as it does a non recoil lug base.

    Hi,

    No and Yes.

    Just because it has and can happen to other non recoil lug type base it doesn't mean it happens with the frequency as it evidently does with the Bergara.

    Sort of like how not all V8 engines are the same so cannot equate Bergara issue as NOT being a Bergara issue but yet it is an across the board issue because that is not how it works.

    The alloy, alloy heat treatment specifications, the base screw clearances into the receiver, etc etc are clearly a Bergara problem more than some of the other manufacturers utilizing a non recoil lug base.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     

    Terry Cross

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    So, the issue with the bases has nothing to do with Bergara, so much as it does a non recoil lug base.
    It has everything to do with Bergara.

    If you cut costs by choosing a poor OEM part as part of your product, it is as much a Bergara issue as if it were the receiver or bolt.

    They calculate that they can maximize their margins in certain areas by counting on 95% of their rifles never seeing any hard or sustained use.


    ./
     

    Terry Cross

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    I wonder why the bases (neither of which has a recoil lug) in both my 12 lb Howas (223 and 308) with relatively heavy scopes (Steiner, SWFA) have never so much as moved a mm in thousands of rounds.

    Nor have I had to replace any sheared screws.
    I hear ya sir.
    I am not saying that everyone who chooses these type bases for their rifle will have an issue.

    I am saying that it is a known potential failure point that can be avoided.
    Lots of them have come loose but lots of them will act like they are TIG welded until the end of time.

    I can see and have only seen 0.0001% of the total picture regarding users of this equipment out there but in my tiny slice we have seen multiple failures that have consistent traits. This makes me think it is a legit issue and not just isolated to my small sample.

    My post was just sharing experience and opinion with the OP about his specific issue and what I believe are the cause.

    If Frank would quite fighting hackers and put his fancy drink with the little umbrella in it down long enough to answer the OP's question, I'm sure it would be more coherent and experience based than my keyboard drivel.

    ./
     

    308pirate

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    I hear ya sir.
    I am not saying that everyone who chooses these type bases for their rifle will have an issue.

    I am saying that it is a known potential failure point that can be avoided.
    Lots of them have come loose but lots of them will act like they are TIG welded until the end of time.

    I can see and have only seen 0.0001% of the total picture regarding users of this equipment out there but in my tiny slice we have seen multiple failures that have consistent traits. This makes me think it is a legit issue and not just isolated to my small sample.

    My post was just sharing experience and opinion with the OP about his specific issue and what I believe are the cause.

    If Frank would quite fighting hackers and put his fancy drink with the little umbrella in it down long enough to answer the OP's question, I'm sure it would be more coherent and experience based than my keyboard drivel.

    ./

    I have a theory. People think tightening screws is dead simple, but there is a right way and about a dozen wrong ways to use a torque wrench.

    Plus torque wrenches and correct technique can't overcomes shit quality screws, poor base to receiver fit, insufficient thread engagement, and out of tolerance (loose fit) threads in the receiver holes, among any other number of potential issues.
     

    EotS

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    It has everything to do with Bergara.

    If you cut costs by choosing a poor OEM part as part of your product, it is as much a Bergara issue as if it were the receiver or bolt.

    They calculate that they can maximize their margins in certain areas by counting on 95% of their rifles never seeing any hard or sustained use.


    ./
    Maybe I'm confused.

    Do you mean the reciver is made out of poor materials and that's the reason some bases are shaking loose?
     

    EotS

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    I think its more of a receiver made poorly.
    We're talking about 4 drilled, and tapped holes. What exactly is the issue?

    "made poorly"?
    How?
    Out of spec? Poor machining?
    We're dealing with some very basic variables. If the holes are drilled/tapped to spec, and the receiver is made of quality metal, whate else is therd?
     

    Terry Cross

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    Maybe I'm confused.

    Do you mean the reciver is made out of poor materials and that's the reason some bases are shaking loose?
    The base.
    Never alluded to any issues with the receiver. I have never seen any operational issues that stemmed from the receiver material or design.

    Not poor materials.
    Never mentioned poor materials.

    Least expensive base design to manufacture or source is the issue when this happens.
    If the base had the recoil lug feature, 99.999% of these issues would vanish.

    I thought I was pretty clear earlier.

    ./
     

    EotS

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    The base.
    Never alluded to any issues with the receiver. I have never seen any operational issues that stemmed from the receiver material or design.

    Not poor materials.
    Never mentioned poor materials.

    Least expensive base design to manufacture or source is the issue when this happens.
    If the base had the recoil lug feature, 99.999% of these issues would vanish.

    I thought I was pretty clear earlier.

    ./
    It wasn't you, everyone else said the Bergara was the issue.
    Even so, look at the thread title, and OP's content.
    I'm not arguing with you I was asking what was the issue, Bergara or non lug bases.
    Everyone else said Bergara, and I was just asking for clarification.


    Title shouldn't even have BERGARA in it, in this case.
     

    SmartDonkey

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    The title should have BERGARA in it- if it is the scope base that they include when you buy the rifle. Not sure if that's the case or not-- but if you add a low quality part to your product I can't see how that doesn't come back on you.

    But maybe it's not the base that comes stock on the gun?
     
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    EotS

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    For fuck's sake,
    I literally asked that very thing in my first post, and everyone here said nothing of the sort.
     

    SmartDonkey

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    You should go back and read.... that's not what they said.

    All I'm going on- the rails that I have seen on Bergara rifles (not many and have no idea if they are the ones coming lose) have a big "B" machined in them and are either made (or marketed) by Bergara. If those are the ones coming lose then it is on them.
     

    Tac Beard

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    To my knowledge, Bergara does not include a scope base on any rifle. Their website does not show any rifle with a base. Maybe they provided a shitty one at some point, but they definitely don’t now. I’ve never seen a factory-installed base on one.

    Either way it was never an issue with the rifle itself, so it’s not accurate to make a blanket statement that “scope bases come loose on Bergaras”.

    Safe to say, if you buy a Bergara or any other rifle:

    1. Buy a quality base with a recoil lug.
    2. Torque to spec with blue Loctite.

    If you fail to do those two things, you don’t get to blame the rifle when the rail comes loose.
     
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    EotS

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    Either way it was never an issue with the rifle itself, so it’s not accurate to make a blanket statement that “scope bases come loose on Bergaras”.

    Safe to say, if you buy a Bergara or any other rifle:

    1. Buy a quality base with a recoil lug.
    2. Torque to spec with blue Loctite.

    If you fail to do those two things, you don’t get to blame the rifle when the rail comes loose.
    Thank you. That's what I originally asked. Was it the rail, or the action.
     

    Tac Beard

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    The Bergara branded bases are probably sourced from EGW or some Chinese supplier. They don’t have a recoil lug, so shame on them for that.

    Fortunately any 700 base will work… just like any other 700 pattern rifle that doesn’t include a rail.
     

    Tac Beard

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    @THEIS, I do not mean to be argumentative, this is an honest question. I’m asking you because of your well-known expertise in rifle building. Is there something in the metallurgy or manufacturing process of Bergara’s receivers that causes a good lugged base to come loose? Or a non-lugged base for that matter?
     

    Terry Cross

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    To my knowledge, Bergara does not include a scope base on any rifle. Their website does not show any rifle with a base. Maybe they provided a shitty one at some point, but they definitely don’t now. I’ve never seen a factory-installed base on one.
    Every Bergara rifle that we have had show up on the line was delivered to the user entity with base installed.

    Link to a 2019 Bergara Catalog: https://www.bergara.online/us/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2019/01/LE_Catalog_2019.pdf

    They also send out promotional SKUs that include scope base installed on some rifles that do not normally ship with bases.

    ./
     

    JakeM

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    Yes, they sell bases. How does that negate my point? What I said was they don’t include bases on their rifles.
    Not on, but with. One came with my HMR, I don't remember if one came with my hunter or not.
     

    Tac Beard

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    Every Bergara rifle that we have had show up on the line was delivered to the user entity with base installed.

    Link to a 2019 Bergara Catalog: https://www.bergara.online/us/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2019/01/LE_Catalog_2019.pdf

    They also send out promotional SKUs that include scope base installed on some rifles that do not normally ship with bases.

    ./
    Thanks for the reply, I respect your experience a lot. It looks to me like the problem is the smooth bottomed base, and Bergara made a big mistake using it.

    But… am I missing something here? Is there a problem with the rifle itself that is not related to the base they used? I mean, first of all screw them for using a non-lugged base. But if those same rifles had all showed up with Badger rails would we be having this conversation?
     

    JakeM

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    Not only that, I believe Mr. Terry has diagnosed my issue. I thought that I had a carbon ring when the groups opened up to 1 moa after shooting half moa consistently. I never thought to check it because I LocTited it.
     

    Tac Beard

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    Not on, but with. One came with my HMR, I don't remember if one came with my hunter or not.
    My BMP didn’t come with one, never saw one included with another rifle either but obviously it happened sometimes. They would have been better off not including one IMO. I use a Seekins base and have never had a problem.
     

    JakeM

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    When I bought mine it happened to be the last one they had, it didn't have anything on it, but when going through the box I found a bergara 20moa rail.
     

    EotS

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    Fwiw, neither of my HMR Wilderness came with one.
     

    DocRDS

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    Under what circumstances is a recoil lug required--I noticed neither my nightforce for howa 1500 (6.5 manbun) nor my Leopold for bergara (300 WM) have them.
     

    Tac Beard

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    I wonder about other factory rifles that include a non-lug rail. Ruger American Predator, Howa HCR, Browning, Winchester XPR, Tikka CTR, Mossberg etc. Why does only Bergara get a bad rap for this? Are the other rifles just less popular or common?

    I don’t have a dog in this race, I really just want to know the facts. Is there or is there not a problem with the Bergara rifle itself that is separate and distinct from their unfortunate rail choice?
     

    Terry Cross

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    I wonder about other factory rifles that include a non-lug rail. Ruger American Predator, Howa HCR, Browning, Winchester XPR, Tikka CTR, Mossberg etc. Why does only Bergara get a bad rap for this? Are the other rifles just less popular or common?

    I don’t have a dog in this race, I really just want to know the facts. Is there or is there not a problem with the Bergara rifle itself that is separate and distinct from their unfortunate rail choice?
    Other rifles out there besides the Bergara are outfitted with slick bottom bases. It certainly is not limited to Bergara. We have seen plenty of this type base come loose on other actions for sure.

    The OP simply asked very specifically about Bergara and very specifically about their scope bases coming loose in when he started this thread.

    EGW and others sell a metric shit ton of slick bottom bases that end up on many brands and models of rifles.
    All have the potential for similar failures as described above.
    However.....almost all will be mounted on recreational rifles that are shot very little with lighter weight, inexpensive scopes. Basically the opposite of most members of SH.

    So....
    Most will never have them come loose simply because they aren't using them to any degree.
    Most would likely not even be shooting well enough to realize an issue much less diagnose it if the base came loose.

    I'm not talking down my nose at those users at all. It's just a fact of the market and what can be considered perfectly good and serviceable until subjected to hard and prolonged use. Even then you are going to have some that will never come loose just because.

    ./
     
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    Terry Cross

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    I am about to attend a two day class with my Bergara B14 HMR in 6.5 Creedmoor. It has an Area 419 rail. Wondering if I need to keep a close eye on it or if I should be good. And yes, I torqued it to specs and used blue locktite. :)
    If this is the Area 419 Base you have, https://www.area419.com/product/remington-700-improved-scope-rail-isr/
    then rock and roll. You shouldn't expect any issues with the base coming loose.

    Remember to clean your breech face and extractor really good with a stiff bristle brush/ tooth brush when you take a break in the class.

    Have fun and don't worry about your damned rifle at the class. It will be fine. You are paying for your software upgrade between your ears.

    ./
     

    HousePlant

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    Hey guys. Frank mentioned an issue on the podcast with the Bergara rails coming loose. Anyone know specifics? Is it Bergara factory rails?

    I am about to attend a two day class with my Bergara B14 HMR in 6.5 Creedmoor. It has an Area 419 rail. Wondering if I need to keep a close eye on it or if I should be good. And yes, I torqued it to specs and used blue locktite. :)

    Thanks for any help.

    My Bergara HMR Pro 6.5 Creedmoor's rail holding a pretty heavy 34mm long range tactical scope has never come loose after 3 competitions (inclusive of me whacking my sunshade on shit all the time) and numerous range days. Guys at said matches have the B14 and I always talk to fellow Bergara users (because... well... best friends) and none of them have ever mentioned their rail coming loose.

    Me thinks you'll be fine. Bring the necessary tools if shit happens that day. Fix it. Move on. Those training courses are staffed by the sort of people who have the experience to quickly tell if your rail is loose if you start shooting all over the place. Which you won't.
     
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    JakeM

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    Other rifles out there besides the Bergara are outfitted with slick bottom bases. It certainly is not limited to Bergara. We have seen plenty of this type base come loose on other actions for sure.

    The OP simply asked very specifically about Bergara and very specifically about their scope bases coming loose in when he started this thread.

    EGW and others sell a metric shit ton of slick bottom bases that end up on many brands and models of rifles.
    All have the potential for similar failures as described above.
    However.....almost all will be mounted on recreational rifles that are shot very little with lighter weight, inexpensive scopes. Basically the opposite of most members of SH.

    So....
    Most will never have them come loose simply because they aren't using them to any degree.
    Most would likely not even be shooting well enough to realize an issue much less diagnose it if the base came loose.

    I'm not talking down my nose at those users at all. It's just a fact of the market and what can be considered perfectly good and serviceable until subjected to hard and prolonged use. Even then you are going to have some that will never come loose just because.

    ./
    Is there a rail out there you recommend for Tikka? I've heard of people epoxying rails onto their tikka rifles.
     

    EotS

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    Area 419 come with #6 and #8s.

    All Bergaras but the Pro are tapped for the #6. Was wondering if I should have it drilled/tapped to take the #8s?

    300wm and 34mm Cronus fwiw.
     
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    HousePlant

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    Is there a rail out there you recommend for Tikka? I've heard of people epoxying rails onto their tikka rifles.
    I have one Tikka with a rail and I'm using the Mountain Tactical rail. It has an integrated recoil lug.

     
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    EotS

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    Area 419 is the only one I know of that is 7075 alum, Tougher, stronger, and with better sheer strength than 6061.

    No real downsides insofar as it's role as a base.
     
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    HousePlant

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    Area 419 come with #6 and #8s.

    All Bergaras but the Pro are tapped for the #6. Was wondering if I should have it drilled/tapped to take the #8s?

    300wm and 34mm Cronus fwiw.

    You can have it drilled/tapped for #8 but... more than likely it'll be a waste of your time and money. If you don't have a rail yet, then okay maybe get the #8 rail and have your action drilled/tapped. If you're already assembled with a rail... leave it.

    Personally, I'd be more concerned about the integrity of my shoulder and wallet if I was doing enough shooting with a 300WM that I might loosen my rail screwed on with #6 screws.
     

    TriggerJerk!

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    Hey guys. Frank mentioned an issue on the podcast with the Bergara rails coming loose. Anyone know specifics? Is it Bergara factory rails?

    I am about to attend a two day class with my Bergara B14 HMR in 6.5 Creedmoor. It has an Area 419 rail. Wondering if I need to keep a close eye on it or if I should be good. And yes, I torqued it to specs and used blue locktite. :)

    Thanks for any help.
    Blue locktite and torqued to 15-20 in/lbs... you should be in good shape.
     
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    EotS

    Sergeant of the Hide
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Nov 12, 2020
    263
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    South
    You can have it drilled/tapped for #8 but... more than likely it'll be a waste of your time and money. If you don't have a rail yet, then okay maybe get the #8 rail and have your action drilled/tapped. If you're already assembled with a rail... leave it.

    Personally, I'd be more concerned about the integrity of my shoulder and wallet if I was doing enough shooting with a 300WM that I might loosen my rail screwed on with #6 screws.
    There's only one style of 419 rail, and it accepts both 6 and 8 as it is.
    I already have the rail, and a lot of gunsmithing work is free to me.
     
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