I have decided I want to use a Berger bullet in my hand loads for my Rem 700 long action .308 26" heavy-contour barrel with 1/12" twist seated in a aluminum beaded chassis. First question is, what would you think will work best 168 or 175. As a military sniper in my M24 SWS I use the 175gr M118LR, but that’s in a 24" barrel with an 11.2" twist ratio. Second question I use my rifle for target and hunting at long ranges but still want the most accurate round for target but still able to use the same round when hunting. For that would you rather use the Berger Match Hunting VLD or the Match Target BT Long Range? Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
- Thread starter adm09_003
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Re: Berger Bullets
Well the BT LR is a target bullet not recommended for hunting, while the VLD has it's own "hunting" section of bullets like you said. I honestly don't know the difference in terminal damage for either bullet. I do know the VLDs can be finicky so to speak to reload for, where seating depth and distance to or from the lands are critical. I shoot the 175gr BT LRs in my .308 first batch loaded at 2.800 COL, all shot very well. As for the twist rate the 1:12 theoretically is a little slow i would imagine for the 175gr bullets. That being said my 11.25 twist in my 5R which is supposedly too fast for lighter bullets shoots 155gr scenars great. So i say try both.
Well the BT LR is a target bullet not recommended for hunting, while the VLD has it's own "hunting" section of bullets like you said. I honestly don't know the difference in terminal damage for either bullet. I do know the VLDs can be finicky so to speak to reload for, where seating depth and distance to or from the lands are critical. I shoot the 175gr BT LRs in my .308 first batch loaded at 2.800 COL, all shot very well. As for the twist rate the 1:12 theoretically is a little slow i would imagine for the 175gr bullets. That being said my 11.25 twist in my 5R which is supposedly too fast for lighter bullets shoots 155gr scenars great. So i say try both.
Re: Berger Bullets
The only way to know for sure is to get a box of each and test them both. Like Blackops_2 said, you may run into an issue when you seat the VLD bullets. Most of the time the VLD's really shine when run .010"-.020" INTO the lands. On the other hand, there are some people reporting great accuracy when seating them OFF of the lands. Again, the only way to know is to test them. If you find out that running them into the lands gives vastly superior accuracy, make sure you use enough neck tension so you don't pull the bullet out on a nonfired round!
The only way to know for sure is to get a box of each and test them both. Like Blackops_2 said, you may run into an issue when you seat the VLD bullets. Most of the time the VLD's really shine when run .010"-.020" INTO the lands. On the other hand, there are some people reporting great accuracy when seating them OFF of the lands. Again, the only way to know is to test them. If you find out that running them into the lands gives vastly superior accuracy, make sure you use enough neck tension so you don't pull the bullet out on a nonfired round!
Re: Berger Bullets
I would say stick with the VLD hunting rounds and give yourself a one bullet system. That way when It comes time to hunt, you dont have to reaquire a new zero. And if your using those same bullets for target, you can track the performance of the bullet over time or vice versa.
I do more target shooting than hunting so this is where my logic stems from. But on those occasions when I do hunt, I would hate to have to find a new zero becuase I used a different round.
I would say stick with the VLD hunting rounds and give yourself a one bullet system. That way when It comes time to hunt, you dont have to reaquire a new zero. And if your using those same bullets for target, you can track the performance of the bullet over time or vice versa.
I do more target shooting than hunting so this is where my logic stems from. But on those occasions when I do hunt, I would hate to have to find a new zero becuase I used a different round.
Re: Berger Bullets
I shoot the 168 VLDs in front of 45.5 grains of Varget in my 21" .308. Gives me about 0.6MOA seating them to mag length.
I shoot the 168 VLDs in front of 45.5 grains of Varget in my 21" .308. Gives me about 0.6MOA seating them to mag length.
Re: Berger Bullets
Mkollman74 are those the hunting or target VLDs?
Mkollman74 are those the hunting or target VLDs?
Re: Berger Bullets
It shouldn't matter too much. They both have the same BC and sectional density, other than some minor differences in the jacket from what i read, they're the same. I do have a box of 168gr VLD hunting, but haven't got to em, don't know if i will i like the 175gr BT LR so much.
It shouldn't matter too much. They both have the same BC and sectional density, other than some minor differences in the jacket from what i read, they're the same. I do have a box of 168gr VLD hunting, but haven't got to em, don't know if i will i like the 175gr BT LR so much.
Re: Berger Bullets
I shoot a SPST .308 with 20" bull barrel And 1:12". With lapua brass 9 1/2 Remington LR primers and 45.9 grains of varget with the bullet seated as long as functionally possible the 168 Berger vld's will not only out perform matchkings, they are hell on what ever is unfortunate enough to be in it's way. Just my thoughts.
I shoot a SPST .308 with 20" bull barrel And 1:12". With lapua brass 9 1/2 Remington LR primers and 45.9 grains of varget with the bullet seated as long as functionally possible the 168 Berger vld's will not only out perform matchkings, they are hell on what ever is unfortunate enough to be in it's way. Just my thoughts.
Re: Berger Bullets
In a 308 you don’t need the target line. The difference in them is the original bullet was used for both target and hunting. Some shooters were having bullet blow ups in fast twist high performance/velocity cartridges like 6.5x284, 243 and the like. The bullet would rip itself apart before reaching the target from the high rpm (fast twist, long bullet) and combined high velocity.
Berger then incorporated a thicker jacket into the design and designated it as “target” to solve this problem. At that same time the original line with the original jacket thickness was relabeled “hunting”. That’s the difference between them.
The VLD design has more open area in the nose than (inside the jacket where the lead lives) the non VLD’s and this causes the nose to crush and expand quicker than the non VLD’s and leads to the grenade effect the VLD’s have in the first 3-5 inches. Impact velocity also plays a significant role here as well, but at or above 1800fps you will have your desired expansion. I have no doubt the “target” line will kill, but like using SMK’s or others you may or may not have expansion. Put it into the right area and it will kill regardless if it’s a Berger Target, Sierra match king, Lapua Scenar or a chunk of lead moving at 900fps from a muzzleloader.
I too am looking at the 175 LR BT or the new Open Tip tactical just released as a dual purpose bullet. I have taken mule deer with both the VLD and the Scenar, in both cases they died in short order, shorter than when hit with a lead ball from my muzzleloader or arrow through the lungs...
In a 308 you don’t need the target line. The difference in them is the original bullet was used for both target and hunting. Some shooters were having bullet blow ups in fast twist high performance/velocity cartridges like 6.5x284, 243 and the like. The bullet would rip itself apart before reaching the target from the high rpm (fast twist, long bullet) and combined high velocity.
Berger then incorporated a thicker jacket into the design and designated it as “target” to solve this problem. At that same time the original line with the original jacket thickness was relabeled “hunting”. That’s the difference between them.
The VLD design has more open area in the nose than (inside the jacket where the lead lives) the non VLD’s and this causes the nose to crush and expand quicker than the non VLD’s and leads to the grenade effect the VLD’s have in the first 3-5 inches. Impact velocity also plays a significant role here as well, but at or above 1800fps you will have your desired expansion. I have no doubt the “target” line will kill, but like using SMK’s or others you may or may not have expansion. Put it into the right area and it will kill regardless if it’s a Berger Target, Sierra match king, Lapua Scenar or a chunk of lead moving at 900fps from a muzzleloader.
I too am looking at the 175 LR BT or the new Open Tip tactical just released as a dual purpose bullet. I have taken mule deer with both the VLD and the Scenar, in both cases they died in short order, shorter than when hit with a lead ball from my muzzleloader or arrow through the lungs...
Re: Berger Bullets
I have yet to shoot anything with the 175 BT LRs but apparently I found out we have hogs in one of our fields so I might give it a try. The only place I've seen the match tactical is loaded in brian litz's ammo on his site. Other than that I haven't been able to find them. I think they would make an exceptional AR-10 round though. I really like the higher BC of the BT LR. Its a little more forgiving at 800-1000 as far as retaining velocity and not going subsonic
I have yet to shoot anything with the 175 BT LRs but apparently I found out we have hogs in one of our fields so I might give it a try. The only place I've seen the match tactical is loaded in brian litz's ammo on his site. Other than that I haven't been able to find them. I think they would make an exceptional AR-10 round though. I really like the higher BC of the BT LR. Its a little more forgiving at 800-1000 as far as retaining velocity and not going subsonic
Re: Berger Bullets
Thank yall for the information. Im definatly going to give them a try and see whats happens
Thank yall for the information. Im definatly going to give them a try and see whats happens
Re: Berger Bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: adm09_003</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mkollman74 are those the hunting or target VLDs? </div></div>
Sorry for the delayed reply. I've used both and can't tell any difference at all.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: adm09_003</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mkollman74 are those the hunting or target VLDs? </div></div>
Sorry for the delayed reply. I've used both and can't tell any difference at all.
Re: Berger Bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot a SPST .308 with 20" bull barrel And 1:12". With lapua brass 9 1/2 Remington LR primers and 45.9 grains of varget with the bullet seated as long as functionally possible the 168 Berger vld's will not only out perform matchkings, they are hell on what ever is unfortunate enough to be in it's way. Just my thoughts. </div></div>
What he said...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aimsmall55</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot a SPST .308 with 20" bull barrel And 1:12". With lapua brass 9 1/2 Remington LR primers and 45.9 grains of varget with the bullet seated as long as functionally possible the 168 Berger vld's will not only out perform matchkings, they are hell on what ever is unfortunate enough to be in it's way. Just my thoughts. </div></div>
What he said...
Re: Berger Bullets
From yalls experiance, from a 26" barrel with 1/12" twist would a 168gr be better or the 175gr?
From yalls experiance, from a 26" barrel with 1/12" twist would a 168gr be better or the 175gr?
Re: Berger Bullets
I have a Rem. 700 VSF, that I think is a 1-12 twist. It shoots the 175s very well. I think I have some of each (168 VLD Hunting and 175 VLD Hunting) and if you want some to try without having to buy a box of 100, let me know, I'll send you some.
I have a Rem. 700 VSF, that I think is a 1-12 twist. It shoots the 175s very well. I think I have some of each (168 VLD Hunting and 175 VLD Hunting) and if you want some to try without having to buy a box of 100, let me know, I'll send you some.
Re: Berger Bullets
Got your email. I found some of both, also I'll send some 168 Amax, they have been doing good as well.
Got your email. I found some of both, also I'll send some 168 Amax, they have been doing good as well.
Re: Berger Bullets
175 gr bullets should be fine in the 1 in 12 twist. Berger recommends a 1 in 13 or faster twist. There are a lot of guys on this site that I am sure shoot 175 gr bullets thru AI rifles of 1 in 12 twist and have no problem at all.
My testing with the Berger VLD Target and Hunting bullets shows no difference in accuracy, velocity, pressure, etc out to 500 yards. I regularly use the two interchangeably in my 7 WSM.
175 gr bullets should be fine in the 1 in 12 twist. Berger recommends a 1 in 13 or faster twist. There are a lot of guys on this site that I am sure shoot 175 gr bullets thru AI rifles of 1 in 12 twist and have no problem at all.
My testing with the Berger VLD Target and Hunting bullets shows no difference in accuracy, velocity, pressure, etc out to 500 yards. I regularly use the two interchangeably in my 7 WSM.
Re: Berger Bullets
I have been playing with the 168vld in my Remington tactical the last 2 weeks in an attempt to find a good load with IMR 8208… I think I found it. I need to play with the powder charge a little more to insure there isn’t a slightly better combo but I am getting a little more than 2600fps with it now, turning in a 3.125” group at 300 and a 5.5” at 600. Which in my mind isn't bad considering I am using a 3.5-10x scope and my necks were getting a little hard as I have about 5 firings since the last annealing. I annealed them last night for the next test.
There are two things I like about the 168vld over the 175vld. First it tracks perfectly with my The Field Density Altitude Compensator (FDAC)as the 168vld has a BC so close to the 175smk that the two are interchangeable. I used this neat little slide rule to make first round hits all the way out to 1000 on steel plates yesterday, center punching every target out to 500 with 600 off by ¼ moa and 700-900 holding with in ½ moa and ¾ moa at 1000. Which makes sense as my velocity was just a little faster than the 2600 card I was using but not fast enough to use the 2650 card. The second thing I like about the 168vld is it also tracks (weather extremes permitting) within the drops listed on my M3 Leupold BDC dial, which is a older model for the 173 BT-FMJ 30-06 round at 2550fps. However, that dial would also work well with the 175vld if you kept the velocity down to 2550 as well.
Adm09_003, I can’t tell you which bullet will work best in your 26” barrel but I can say if you can’t reach the lands with the vld’s don’t be afraid to adjust them deeper. Because of my factory chamber I am jumping this bullet quite far. My first attempt at mag length was showing two grouping where I would have two impacts touching and 3 touching in a different location. That generally can be solved by adjusting the seating depth. Once I set the bullets .015-.02” deeper that fixed my groups.
I have been playing with the 168vld in my Remington tactical the last 2 weeks in an attempt to find a good load with IMR 8208… I think I found it. I need to play with the powder charge a little more to insure there isn’t a slightly better combo but I am getting a little more than 2600fps with it now, turning in a 3.125” group at 300 and a 5.5” at 600. Which in my mind isn't bad considering I am using a 3.5-10x scope and my necks were getting a little hard as I have about 5 firings since the last annealing. I annealed them last night for the next test.
There are two things I like about the 168vld over the 175vld. First it tracks perfectly with my The Field Density Altitude Compensator (FDAC)as the 168vld has a BC so close to the 175smk that the two are interchangeable. I used this neat little slide rule to make first round hits all the way out to 1000 on steel plates yesterday, center punching every target out to 500 with 600 off by ¼ moa and 700-900 holding with in ½ moa and ¾ moa at 1000. Which makes sense as my velocity was just a little faster than the 2600 card I was using but not fast enough to use the 2650 card. The second thing I like about the 168vld is it also tracks (weather extremes permitting) within the drops listed on my M3 Leupold BDC dial, which is a older model for the 173 BT-FMJ 30-06 round at 2550fps. However, that dial would also work well with the 175vld if you kept the velocity down to 2550 as well.
Adm09_003, I can’t tell you which bullet will work best in your 26” barrel but I can say if you can’t reach the lands with the vld’s don’t be afraid to adjust them deeper. Because of my factory chamber I am jumping this bullet quite far. My first attempt at mag length was showing two grouping where I would have two impacts touching and 3 touching in a different location. That generally can be solved by adjusting the seating depth. Once I set the bullets .015-.02” deeper that fixed my groups.
Re: Berger Bullets
Great info! Thank you for the write up!
Great info! Thank you for the write up!
