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Best Fire Forming Option ?

64Rambler

Private
Minuteman
Mar 29, 2022
6
1
Alpharetta, GA
Which is the best option for fire forming brass?
  • Blowing out brass to fill a triangle shaped void (top example in image)
  • Blowing out brass to fill a trapezoidal shaped void (bottom example in image)
In attached image, black line is body/shoulder/neck shape of chamber, red line is unformed brass.
Is one worse in terms of short case life near body/shoulder junction?
Thanks,
Scott
1700083174196.png
 
When you pull the trigger you don’t get to choose where it blows out at. Pascal or Boyle or something like that.

But if you mean to form the case to have the neck shoulder point remain/stay in contact then yes, that’s best but it’s due to keeping the case head against the bolt face and limiting body stretch. Ackley chamberings do this by design with the parent cartridges, false shoulder and jamming bullets are other avenues to achieve the same result of limiting body stretch.

Your example doesn’t provide enough pertinent data to provide an accurate answer.
 
Are we talking brass that is be converted to something else (and if so, how big a change) or just forming to a chamber?

I.E. are we talking about something like 6br to 6 dasher, 6br to 6bra, or just fire forming 6br in a 6br chamber?


And for your trapezoidal model, would you be doing this in steps, I.E. one chamber the to blow it out to the .060 mark and then another chamber to get it from there to the .002 mark in the triangle?
 
When you pull the trigger you don’t get to choose where it blows out at. Pascal or Boyle or something like that.

But if you mean to form the case to have the neck shoulder point remain/stay in contact then yes, that’s best but it’s due to keeping the case head against the bolt face and limiting body stretch. Ackley chamberings do this by design with the parent cartridges, false shoulder and jamming bullets are other avenues to achieve the same result of limiting body stretch.

Your example doesn’t provide enough pertinent data to provide an accurate answer.

You could if you used different chambers in "steps" to firearm. Though I'm assuming he's not suggesting that.
 
When you pull the trigger you don’t get to choose where it blows out at. Pascal or Boyle or something like that.

But if you mean to form the case to have the neck shoulder point remain/stay in contact then yes, that’s best but it’s due to keeping the case head against the bolt face and limiting body stretch. Ackley chamberings do this by design with the parent cartridges, false shoulder and jamming bullets are other avenues to achieve the same result of limiting body stretch.

Your example doesn’t provide enough pertinent data to provide an accurate answer.
OK, more information. This is an improved 7mm-08 of my own insanity; The top drawing is what I'll get fire forming a std 7mm-08 Rem case in the chamber; the hinge point is the neck/shoulder junction (minus 0.004" a la Ackley and another 0.002" bump to fit with an easy bolt close) creating a triangular void. The bottom is what I'll get if I try to fire form WTO 7mm SAW brass to my version of an improved chamber, where the original hinge point for the SAW was the std 7mm-08 body to shoulder junction, hence only a reloading die bump needed to form, but n my chamber there would be a trapezoidal void. The draw here is SRP brass with the right neck wall thickness and a plus that it's made by Alpha. Yes, I could start with .308 SRP brass (then I have a choice between Alpha and Lapua), but then I'd have the additional steps of necking down to 7mm plus neck trimming to get the wall thickness down. Which may not be a bad thing as it would true things up...
 
Are we talking brass that is be converted to something else (and if so, how big a change) or just forming to a chamber?

I.E. are we talking about something like 6br to 6 dasher, 6br to 6bra, or just fire forming 6br in a 6br chamber?


And for your trapezoidal model, would you be doing this in steps, I.E. one chamber the to blow it out to the .060 mark and then another chamber to get it from there to the .002 mark in the triangle?
See the longer answer to Spife7980, but this would be fire forming from 7mmSAW to a non-Ackley improved 7mm-08 in one shot.
 
Ok. Fireforming to do the top one, the triangle void, is basically P.O.Ackley's method, or commonly "ackley improved". It works "easiest". You often find that Ackley imp reamers are 4thou (0.004" / 0.1mm) SHORTER, so when you close the bolt on a "normal" piece of brass in an ackley chamber, its a little stiff to close. This is normal on first firings.

If you do the second version, the trapizoidal, you have 2 options. False shoulder, or hard jam in lands.
If you try to fire a case like this, say a 6br in a 6brx chamber, or 6bra in a 6 dasher chamber, you often get a hang fire. The firing pin pushes the entire case forward in the chamber, and it doesn't reliably ignite. I have personally had case head seperations from this.

False shoulder is using a neck expander mandrel, say 30cal in your case because you wanted 7mm, then run through a sizing die to bring the neck back to 7mm, but NOT the whole neck, only like 3/4 of it, so you get a step, or "false shoulder".
This false shoulder allows the firing pin to hit without ramming the case into the chamber, and will fireform it properly.

Another option is to use a tight undersize bushing when you size the brass, and have the projectile jam 0.010" (10 thou) or so into the lands. Again, slightly stiff to close the bolt. This allows the firing pin to hit the primer properly without sending the case forward. It will fireform and blow out.

This is the most common way of doing it, because its the easiest and quickest for most people.

Does this answer your quesrion ?
 
Ok. Fireforming to do the top one, the triangle void, is basically P.O.Ackley's method, or commonly "ackley improved". It works "easiest". You often find that Ackley imp reamers are 4thou (0.004" / 0.1mm) SHORTER, so when you close the bolt on a "normal" piece of brass in an ackley chamber, its a little stiff to close. This is normal on first firings.

If you do the second version, the trapizoidal, you have 2 options. False shoulder, or hard jam in lands.
If you try to fire a case like this, say a 6br in a 6brx chamber, or 6bra in a 6 dasher chamber, you often get a hang fire. The firing pin pushes the entire case forward in the chamber, and it doesn't reliably ignite. I have personally had case head seperations from this.

False shoulder is using a neck expander mandrel, say 30cal in your case because you wanted 7mm, then run through a sizing die to bring the neck back to 7mm, but NOT the whole neck, only like 3/4 of it, so you get a step, or "false shoulder".
This false shoulder allows the firing pin to hit without ramming the case into the chamber, and will fireform it properly.

Another option is to use a tight undersize bushing when you size the brass, and have the projectile jam 0.010" (10 thou) or so into the lands. Again, slightly stiff to close the bolt. This allows the firing pin to hit the primer properly without sending the case forward. It will fireform and blow out.

This is the most common way of doing it, because its the easiest and quickest for most people.

Does this answer your quesrion ?
Absolutely! Thanks for the detail.
 
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Which is the best option for fire forming brass?
  • Blowing out brass to fill a triangle shaped void (top example in image)
  • Blowing out brass to fill a trapezoidal shaped void (bottom example in image)
In attached image, black line is body/shoulder/neck shape of chamber, red line is unformed brass.
Is one worse in terms of short case life near body/shoulder junction?
Thanks,
Scott
View attachment 8272952
20231116_111156.jpg


There is really nothing special you have to do. You do not have to jam the bullets, if you don't want to. I tend to stay .005" jump, or less. This is .308, necked down to 7mm-08 and fired in an Ackley Improved chamber. It would be considered a "hot" 7mm-08 load, but that's where they come to life, and shoot tight. This is only one firing. Once I get them once fired, I will clean, anneal, size, trim. And sizing, I will try to bump shoulders only .001". I hate neck sizing only, and I have tried it on .223 A.I. because the shoulders were not fully formed in one firing. Just know if you neck size only, on the first resize, you're going to have some cartridges that do not want to chamber. I have muscled through them and made the bolt close anyway.

On Ackley Improves, do a legit load development for fire forming brass. Do not think that since they are fire forming they cannot shoot tight. That is completely false. With a well built rifle, and all the care taken for any other load development, fire forming A.I. brass shoots very precise. The difference is, it won't make the same velocity as the formed brass. So what, run it anyway.
 
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See the longer answer to Spife7980, but this would be fire forming from 7mmSAW to a non-Ackley improved 7mm-08 in one shot.

Ah. Makes sense now.

I'd look at making a false shoulder. Similar to Dasher fire forming. You can do a hard jam, but you will likely end up with some split necks going that route. Jamming is easier though.
 
What is the performance gain you are getting going to 708AI or whatever you are doing?
 
Lapua or Peterson, and H-Varget.
Interesting.
162ELDM, Lapua brass, with W760, RL17, H100V 24" 708AI has me 2750fps before hitting case life shortening pressure signs.
This is only up 50fps from the 708 loads. I must be maximizing pressure in both, thus the little amount gain I am seeing.
 
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If your ackley chamber is cut right just load up 7mm08 ammo and shoot it. I get great 1/2moa groups fireforming brass in my 6.5x55AI.