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Rifle Scopes best optics for a 308..long range rig

SuburbanHick

SuburbanHick

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Feb 7, 2011
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ok.... long story short i have a budget of 1400.00... due to my line of work, i can get my paws on a new leupold mark 4 er/t for that price.... but here is my question.... TMR or standard mildot?? really how much of a difference is there between the two?

or do i look at nightforce....vortex.... zeiss?? too many options

this is going to be a 1000 yard rig on steel and paper...hunting within 700 yards
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

My scopes are for shooting paper, steel and hunting...

Nightforce is great and if you have the coin that would be my first choice. but...

I am also a big fan of SWFA SS 5-20. I have looked through a 3-21 bushnell g2 hdmr and liked what I saw... so those are two you may want to consider for less cash.

I have owned several mk4's and while they are good enough to get the job done I have only been really please with one of the 6 and it was a pre mk4 model to boot. When I can get an outstanding price, great, otherwise I pass on them.

Absolutely nothing wrong with vortex and there price point is great (I sold most of my mk4’s to buy vortex’s) but if I got 1000-1400 in my pocket and want one great scope the SWFA SS 5-20 would be my first pick, after owning two of them.

The mildot is fine but the TMR will do the same thing only better. It offers more precision for holding wind, elevation and ranging.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: suburbanhick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">alright... if i may ask what makes the vortex so much better than the mark 4? </div></div>The fact that it's not a Leupold.
laugh.gif


In your budget range, look for a used SFP Nightforce or a new Bushnell DMR.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

I like the mildot in the FFP for the fact that i can use it at any magnification...also i can get the dials made for my load from leupold that make adjustments spot on every time....

and your telling me that vortex is still better than this?
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

Many people say that one scope or another is 'great', but that's simply a value judgment: It doesn't give information about how and why one scope is better than another.

There are many Threads on here about the Leupold MK4, pre-MkIV, old and new production. Consider seeking them out. Google advanced search works well for that. Put 'Sniper's Hide' in the first category to limit the search to this site.

Hint on the Leupys: Check out the material of the erector spring.

PS - get Mil or MOA knobs. Any 'dial made for my load'..... won't be.
wink.gif
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The fact that it's not a Leupold.
laugh.gif


Look for a used SFP Nightforce or a new Bushnell DMR. </div></div>

And his DMR was the one I looked through!

It's not that the vortex is so much better it that Leupolds are 30-40% over priced to begin with. I will say that all but one vortex I own, in general, the optics are better in the vortex. When I have needed customer service vortex was great to deal with and went above and beyond. My experience with Leupold... not so much, plus I waited months rather than the 3-4 business days with vortex.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

well let me ask you this...if you had a chance to get a brand new leupold mark 4 er/t 8.5-25x50 in FFP.....for 1400.00.. what about it then?
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My scopes are for shooting paper, steel and hunting...

Nightforce is great and if you have the coin that would be my first choice. but...

I am also a big fan of SWFA SS 5-20. I have looked through a 3-21 bushnell g2 hdmr and liked what I saw... so those are two you may want to consider for less cash.

I have owned several mk4's and while they are good enough to get the job done I have only been really please with one of the 6 and it was a pre mk4 model to boot. When I can get an outstanding price, great, otherwise I pass on them.

Absolutely nothing wrong with vortex and there price point is great (I sold most of my mk4’s to buy vortex’s) but if I got 1000-1400 in my pocket and want one great scope the SWFA SS 5-20 would be my first pick.

The mildot is fine but the TMR will do the same thing only better. It offers more precision for holding wind, elevation and ranging. </div></div>
+1
and as for the loopy......

What Graham said!
wink.gif
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: suburbanhick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well let me ask you this...if you had a chance to get a brand new leupold mark 4 er/t 8.5-25x50 in FFP.....for 1400.00.. what about it then? </div></div>With a Leupold scope, YOU are the quality control. If you know enough about scopes to optically test them, make sure the reticle subtends correctly and confirm a lack of reticle jump, then there's nothing wrong with a severely discounted Leupy as long as you get one that has good glass and you don't turn the knobs too much. Assuming all of that, hope that if the reticle is canted from the factory that it is canted more than what Leupold declares as their 'spec du jour' because otherwise you're stuck with it: They won't fix it; and you'll only find that out after the few trips the scope takes back to the factory for repair that doesn't happen.

So, if you really want a Leupold, do what the top tier military guys used to do: Get two of them, test and zero them both, and carry the spare.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

I approach purchasing Leupold scopes like this… Can I get what I have in the scope back out of it and more? If I can answer yes I’d consider it. But that was before SWFA and Bushnell rolled out there offerings. That said, I won’t pay 1000 plus for a mk4 again…
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

I no longer own any Leupolds. The last one I bought was a pre-Mk IV, and compared to the new ones it was an excellent scope...for five hundred bucks.
grin.gif


Besides, OP, with an 8.5-25x you are way over-scoping a .308 for your intended purpose.

That, and depending on your skill level, the conditions, and the game animal, you might want to reconsider hunting at 700 with a .308.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

One remaining here and it may be on the auction block soon in favor of the new 2.5-10 ffp vortex... but it did make a great muzzleloading scope this year.
grin.gif


muzzleloader.jpg


suburbanhick, on the BDC knobs. They work to about 500y depending on what caliber you are using and bullet type. After that the differences in air density the knobs were calibrated for verses what they are when you are shooting will play in and the more distant the target the greater this has to be factored in. They can be spot on some days and other days off by quite a bit… it just depends on the DA. But you can get BDC knobs from vortex directly and keton industry’s (not sure on spelling) for most any externally adjusted scope brand.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

This is going to be a plinker 85-90% of the time with some time hunting..... its the military pricing from promotive that i can get it for 1400
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

You seem to be dead set on the Leupy so why not just get it? You have two guys who have had several of the scopes you're looking at and have traded the vast majority of them for scopes of another brand. They're not the only ones and that tells me a lot. If I were in your position I would be looking at Vorex PST's, Bushnell HDMR's, SWFA SS 5-25's, or even a used NightForce NXS. Personally I'd take any of those over a Leupy considering what's been said above. But hell, that's just me. If you really want to take advantage of the deal you're getting on it, then go for it! Worst comes to worst you can always sell it...

-Dylan
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dylan in AZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You seem to be dead set on the Leupy so why not just get it? You have two guys who have had several of the scopes you're looking at and have traded the vast majority of them for scopes of another brand. They're not the only ones and that tells me a lot. If I were in your position I would be looking at Vorex PST's, Bushnell HDMR's, SWFA SS 5-25's, or even a used NightForce NXS. Personally I'd take any of those over a Leupy considering what's been said above. But hell, that's just me. If you really want to take advantage of the deal you're getting on it, then go for it! Worst comes to worst you can always sell it...

-Dylan </div></div>

i seem to be stuck on the mark 4 because 3-4 years ago when i bought one it was what i was told to be the best of whats out there short of lica , nightforce, etc...

i just went out and got my hands on some vortex and nightforce, they are both very nice but i really like the NXS...to be honest i think my dick twitched alittle.... and now i find myself shopping around for them...
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

I'm a huge die-hard Leupy fan, if I were buying a dedicated hunting scope tomorrow, I'd buy another Leupold. All that said, I was on the fence last month choosing glass for a GAP 308. Ultimately went with a Nightforce 5.5-22, and couldn't be happier. I have a GAP Lapua inbound and it too will wear a Nighforce. I live it for a long range rig. Today tinkering with load development, just put the velocity and load information into my magic box (ie iPhone) and had the dope out to 1000 yards--had a ball playing with the turrets. Simply awesome scope.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

Get the Leupold mk4 er/t FFP m5. It is a great scope I spent a few hours dialing between 100 and 1200 yds yesterday. It never missed a beat and put three rounds in the one inch square at 100yd at the end of the day.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

IMHO, you should be focusing on what is "best" for you, rather than what other's feel are "best." Why? Because they are not you. Nothing wrong with getting feedback on experiences though, especially when it comes to customer service. There are a lot of scopes out there that will do the job you want them to do, some cheaper than others. You won't know for sure until you get out there and fingerf*ck some of them. Hell, if my buddy is running a USO and I am running a SS and we are both hitting steel at 800+, you tell me which scope is "best..."

That being said, I wish you luck on your quest for some glass that kicks some ass!
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: suburbanhick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok.... long story short i have a budget of 1400.00... due to my line of work, i can get my paws on a new leupold mark 4 er/t for that price.... but here is my question.... TMR or standard mildot?? really how much of a difference is there between the two?

or do i look at nightforce....vortex.... zeiss?? too many options

this is going to be a 1000 yard rig on steel and paper...hunting within 700 yards </div></div>

If you want to go Leupold then go TMR, the hashes are easier to read than mill dots, as well the TMR is nice and thin for fine point shooting. But for that budget your better off with a Bushnell HDMR. As well your going to get better glass if you go with the SWFA SS HD. The HD glass is very nice. The Leupold will not have the HD glass.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: suburbanhick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">alright... if i may ask what makes the vortex so much better than the mark 4? </div></div>


The vortex models in that price range are <span style="font-weight: bold">not </span>better than the MK4. The PST is the only model close to that price and the Leupold will have better glass and a wider field of view. The only advantage the PST has would be the nice reticle.

Now if your talking about the $2000 dollar Vortex Raxor HD then your leaps ahead of most Leupolds. The HD glass on the Razor is superb. And as well once again very nice long range reticles.

Now in saying that I have the MK4 with TMR in the 34mm tube and it's an excellent optic. Nice glass and good tracking. But now your looking at spending over $2000
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

If u go leup id get the tmr since it has half mil marks which make it easier for holds and milling. If not the leup i would recommend the bushnell hdmr with the g2.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hornet shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get the Leupold mk4 er/t FFP m5. It is a great scope I spent a few hours dialing between 100 and 1200 yds yesterday.</div></div>If it takes that long there's something wrong with your scope.
laugh.gif


Seriously, though, 'great scope' and 'never missed a beat' are not objective criteria for scope performance.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

I'd get a NF NXS 5.5-22X50/56 with the MOAR reticle. I know it's above your price range but if it were me I save/spend the extra $$$. You will never be sorry you got a Nightforce.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Santo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd get a NF NXS 5.5-22X50/56 with the MOAR reticle. I know it's above your price range but if it were me I save/spend the extra $$$. You will never be sorry you got a Nightforce. </div></div>

Called nightforce....they have their own military program.....i think. 8-32x56and nxs is next....im going to have to put extra cash into it....but i got my paws on a nxs 5-22x56 yesterday locally.....lets just say nightforce might just be worth it even tho its not ffp.....custom dials will work work just as well
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: suburbanhick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like the mildot in the FFP for the fact that i can use it at any magnification...also i can get the dials made for my load from leupold that make adjustments spot on every time....

and your telling me that vortex is still better than this? </div></div> yes, buy the Nightforce, or Vortex, or SS, loose the idea of custom knobs, and do some more research. You'll be glad you listened.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

I will go with nightforce for my new Surgeon I have several Leupolds MK4 and will not own another, if nightforce gives a discount great if not I will still buy one.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

I am a fan of the NF F1 for an all around kind of scope. Pricey but you know, all that buy once shit
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$1400 for that scope is not a good deal. </div></div>



Tyler, keep them honest, mofo!


997/2
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hornet shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get the Leupold mk4 er/t FFP m5. It is a great scope I spent a few hours dialing between 100 and 1200 yds yesterday.</div></div>If it takes that long there's something wrong with your scope.
laugh.gif


Seriously, though, 'great scope' and 'never missed a beat' are not objective criteria for scope performance. </div></div>

Ok I am sorry I will be more specific. The Leupold mrk4 ffp er/t m5 has better glass than Nightforce NXS line in my opinion. Nightforce makes some great scopes but they do not offer anything that will compare to the mk4 in the 1500$ price range. I also favor the TMR reticle and after the last year of hard use my Leupold has tracked flawlessly. I must be one of the few that has had such good luck with the Leupold scopes take it for what its worth but for 1400$ it is a great long range scope!
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hornet shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seriously, though, 'great scope' and 'never missed a beat' are not objective criteria for scope performance. </div></div>Ok I am sorry I will be more specific. The Leupold mrk4 ffp er/t m5 has better glass than Nightforce NXS line in my opinion.</div></div>What do you mean by better glass? Do you mean different coatings, grind, manufacturer?

Because I hear the 'better glass' argument between scopes all the time and it doesn't make sense. Why doesn't it make sense? Because 'good glass' is not about the glass: I have Schott glass in my coffee maker. It says so on the bottom of the receptacle. Does that mean that I have the same quality glass in my coffee maker as premium scope companies use in their optics?

Hmmmmm....Maybe 'good glass' is really about grind and coatings. Or maybe scope companies have a specification for optical quality: Some scopes of the same make and model come off the line near the top of the spec. Others pass quality control near the bottom of the spec. In that case the quality of the 'glass', as you call it, is really more about quality control in general. Maybe that's why, between examples of the same scope, I often can't tell how one measures-up to a different, equivalent brand.

So when you say that Leupold has 'better glass in my opinion', you really aren't being more specific - except as to your unsubstantiated opinion.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

Graham-spot on, I think I might copy and paste that into every "scope" thread ever just to be "that" guy...I'll just remove the Leupold/NF reference to make it as universal as it should be.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

There seems to be a lot of good info above but I'm just going to throw in an opinion on one piece of info that you mentioned and hasn't really be discussed and that is custom turrets. If you get truly custom turrets they will work pretty close but if your moving in elevation, temps, barometric pressure or any other variable those clicks wont be as accurate as you think. For paper that's fine but for an animal I want to know what I'm getting into exactly.... the first shot! Good luck and just my $.02

btw I have the Vortex and love it, anything you buy in that price range will be good its finding the one that is good for you.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: suburbanhick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">nightforce 8-32x56....im thinking mildot.....</div></div>
I used to be a magnification whore myself, trust me, you don't need the 8-32 unless you're shooting benchrest. Especially if you'll be hunting. Even the 5.5-22 that I have now is too much for me most of the time. But if your heart wants mag, then go for it, but the 22x will be fine as far as you can shoot. Plus, 65 MOA of adjustment in the 32x model, and 100 moa in the 22x and 15x models. It's not just me either, there's plenty of guys on here that have done the same; gotten high-mag scopes...then gradually get less and less every time they buy a new one.

Forget the mil-dots as well. They were the standard 10 years ago...much better options now. If you're a mil guy, then even the simple MLR reticle is better than mil-dots. Cleaner, with half-mil subtensions.

Here's a photo from CS tactical of a NXS at 15x at 1000 yards.
vhartv.jpg
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

i didnt end up with the mildot... i went with the MOAR... you were right...10 years ago that was the standard...however im a magnification whore all day long.... i know 22 would be more than enough, however the way i think about it, when you need it..and dont have it, you start to sing a whole different tune...plus i can always turn the scope down to a lower setting....(I know this makes me sound new...but we all have to start somewhere...)
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

The only time I've needed more magnification is at short range in comps when the targets were very, very small.

If you are going to get a scope with a 22x top-end don't get SFP, or you'll regret it every time you decrease the magnification.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only time I've needed more magnification is at short range in comps when the targets were very, very small.

If you are going to get a scope with a 22x top-end don't get SFP, or you'll regret it every time you decrease the magnification. </div></div>

Why ?
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: suburbanhick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">nightforce 8-32x56....im thinking mildot.....</div></div>
I used to be a magnification whore myself, trust me, you don't need the 8-32 unless you're shooting benchrest. Especially if you'll be hunting. Even the 5.5-22 that I have now is too much for me most of the time. But if your heart wants mag, then go for it, but the 22x will be fine as far as you can shoot. Plus, 65 MOA of adjustment in the 32x model, and 100 moa in the 22x and 15x models. It's not just me either, there's plenty of guys on here that have done the same; gotten high-mag scopes...then gradually get less and less every time they buy a new one.

Forget the mil-dots as well. They were the standard 10 years ago...much better options now. If you're a mil guy, then even the simple MLR reticle is better than mil-dots. Cleaner, with half-mil subtensions.

Here's a photo from CS tactical of a NXS at 15x at 1000 yards.
vhartv.jpg

</div></div>

Is that target 18x18 or thereabouts?

For the OP, I used to shoot a 3.5-18 at 1000 yards and in. But I rarely used anything above 10-12x because of the mirage. I recently switched to a USO fixed 10x and couldn't be happier. I shoot primarily steel targets and rarely shoot less than 300 yards with my 308.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are going to get a scope with a 22x top-end don't get SFP, or you'll regret it every time you decrease the magnification. </div></div>Why ? </div></div>Because you'll soon get tired and/or lost by dialing wind, and that's assuming you have optically checked the reticle.

At an LE sniper school a member of this Board set up a grid for other officers to check their scopes. Of the seventeen scopes evaluated twelve failed to subtend correctly against the hard stop. That’s a 70% failure rate. Of those twelve, three were able to be dialed down to correct the subtension. This left nine of the fourteen (64% of the scopes) that would not range correctly without deriving a unique multiplier for each scope. Three guesses as to which company made the nine scopes - because one can only hope that they are not in operational use and were returned under their full lifetime warranty for repair or replacement.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

Go on, tell us which ones :)
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

I just talked to a First Sgt. of a Sniper platoon that I know to get his take on Leupold. He has been a sniper in the Army for about 13 years now. He advovates Leupold. He did say he likes USO and S&B better, but he said for the money Leupold is what he likes. I used Leupold in LE for a few years. I just compared Leupold, NF, and a PST in a gun shop in Boise. Granted I didnt shoot with them, but as far a feel and construction and looking through the glass. I didn't mind the Leupold. I have heard a lot of things about the "erector spring" on the Leupold, but have never experienced this myself nor have I seen any concrete evidence given that there was something wrong with them. The fact that Lowlight mentioned on here that he has had a lot of classes where people were haveing trouble with their Leupold kind of scares me though. I dont know if this is still happening or not. I would like to know if Leupold has upped their QC! On another note I noticed that Sniper Central gave the old LR/T a pretty good thumbs up in his review. In fact he put it right up there even over the Bushnell HDMR as far as his rating system goes. Trying to find the skinny on a good scope is too fucking complicated if you ask me.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

I've seen problem scopes from almost every manufacturer. The journey taught me that there are bad individual scopes of every kind, made by every manufacturer. And that the reason one pays so much for a premium scope is to reduce the chances of getting a bad one. The opposite side of that coin is that when you get a good one, and it tracks well, and it subtends correctly, and it works properly, you keep it.
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pointman10-32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">^^^This is widom!</div></div>Learning enough to optically check whatever rifle scope you get, testing it yourself, and showing others how and why doing that is important, is wisdom.

Have a look here:
http://www.arcanamavens.com/LBSFiles/Shooting/Downloads/ScopeChecking/
 
Re: best optics for a 308..long range rig

Thanks for the link. I noticed it was written in 2008. Has anybody tested Mark 4 tracking lately?
 
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