i am looking to build a period accurate retro sniper rifle using the Malcolm 8x USMC sniper scope. I got the chance to use this scope about 6 months ago (mounted on a 1903 springfield) and i loved the look and feel of it. I have seen numerous pictures of this scope and the originals mounted on either springfield 1903 or a variation of the winchester model 70. I am looking to stay as period accurate as possible. I would also like to use the 30-06 calibre. I was just hoping to get some first hand knowledge or suggestions. I know it will mount to both rifles (with some gunsmithing of course), but I would like to get some opinions on which rifle it should be. I am comfortable with shooting both of the winchester model 70 and springfield 1903, so that is not an issue.
- Thread starter jsmythe
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"I was just hoping to get some first hand knowledge or suggestions. I know it will mount to both rifles (with some gunsmithing of course), but I would like to get some opinions on which rifle it should be."...." I am looking to stay as period accurate as possible."
In that case you should consider reading or researching two of Peter Senich's books, "The Marine Scout-Sniper" and the "The One-Round War".
Re the 1903: During WWII the USMC used a few hundred 1930s era 1903A1 National Match rifles to convert them into sniper rifles with the 8x Unertl scope. The serial number range for these rifles would be in the 1.3 to 1.4M range, generally speaking. They were used from 1943-1945, often in the Pacific, and again used during the Korean War from 1951-1953, after which they were deemed obsolete. I have a replica of this rifle using a 1.27M 1903 and the Hi-Lux 8x scope.
Re the Winchester Model 70: The Model 70 sniper rifles were not used in WWII or the Korean War. (their was one exception in Korea re Capt Brophy w/ a civilan Model 70, but that's an aberration). In 1965 the USMC needed some sniper rifles for Vietnam, so Maj Edward "Jim" Land requested the former USMC rifle team Model 70s that were in storage in Albany GA, and they also located dozens of the old Unertl 8x scopes that had been removed from the old 1903s, and mounted them to the Model 70 during the early part of the Vietnam War. These would all be pre-64 Model 70s, presumably a bunch with 1941 serial numbers, and some with early to mid-1959s serial numbers. Note: A Model 70 is not legal in the CMP vintage sniper matches.
The first picture is what Carlos Hathcock likely used in most of his time in Vietnam (this pic is the Sporter stock wiith 8x Unertl scope). The B&W pics are from Senich's books.
My replica of a USMC M70 sniper is built on a 1956 era M70, currently w/ 10x Lyman Super TargetSpot, but I have a more proper 10x Unertl that I will mount this winter now that I have black (instead of silver) mounts for it.
Again, I recommend reading Peter Senich's book(s) if you want to built a "period correct" sniper of either rifle. I don't think their is a "best platform" re which way to go,as both are classic rifles, but the 1903 option will likely be easier and somewhat less expensive than building up a pre-64 Model 70. Good luck whichever way you go.
In that case you should consider reading or researching two of Peter Senich's books, "The Marine Scout-Sniper" and the "The One-Round War".
Re the 1903: During WWII the USMC used a few hundred 1930s era 1903A1 National Match rifles to convert them into sniper rifles with the 8x Unertl scope. The serial number range for these rifles would be in the 1.3 to 1.4M range, generally speaking. They were used from 1943-1945, often in the Pacific, and again used during the Korean War from 1951-1953, after which they were deemed obsolete. I have a replica of this rifle using a 1.27M 1903 and the Hi-Lux 8x scope.
Re the Winchester Model 70: The Model 70 sniper rifles were not used in WWII or the Korean War. (their was one exception in Korea re Capt Brophy w/ a civilan Model 70, but that's an aberration). In 1965 the USMC needed some sniper rifles for Vietnam, so Maj Edward "Jim" Land requested the former USMC rifle team Model 70s that were in storage in Albany GA, and they also located dozens of the old Unertl 8x scopes that had been removed from the old 1903s, and mounted them to the Model 70 during the early part of the Vietnam War. These would all be pre-64 Model 70s, presumably a bunch with 1941 serial numbers, and some with early to mid-1959s serial numbers. Note: A Model 70 is not legal in the CMP vintage sniper matches.
The first picture is what Carlos Hathcock likely used in most of his time in Vietnam (this pic is the Sporter stock wiith 8x Unertl scope). The B&W pics are from Senich's books.
My replica of a USMC M70 sniper is built on a 1956 era M70, currently w/ 10x Lyman Super TargetSpot, but I have a more proper 10x Unertl that I will mount this winter now that I have black (instead of silver) mounts for it.
Again, I recommend reading Peter Senich's book(s) if you want to built a "period correct" sniper of either rifle. I don't think their is a "best platform" re which way to go,as both are classic rifles, but the 1903 option will likely be easier and somewhat less expensive than building up a pre-64 Model 70. Good luck whichever way you go.
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thank you. at this stage I will probably go with mounting the 8x scope on a winchester model 70 and mount the 1903 with a M73B1. but I will keep my eyes and ears open. i will also check out the books mentioned. always love reading first hand accounts of historical sniping.
This is just me. I have both the Model 70 that came from the RTE shop in the early 70's and real 1903A1 Unertl snipers. I like the 1903. I can show the 1903's and people know what they are and they are iconic. The Model 70 everyone is always like why the long scope on it? lol No one recognizes it other than the people who are hardcore about them.
I do see your point, Cpl Norton.
my only real preference for using the 8x scope on the model 70 as opposed to the 1903, is that from everything I have read and heard the 1903 doesn't perform as well as the model 70 did. I have read numerous reports of the model 70 when paired with the 8x scope being a great rifle. plus most of everything i have read about the sniping in world war 2 is that the snipers prefered the 2.2x or 2.75x scopes because the distances of most of the sniping engagements were so close, especially in the pacific theatre. I have read numerous reports of the marines in the pacific saying that the 8x scope was too much for what they were using it for. But come along to the Korean and Vietnam wars and the 8x scopes were definitely needed. i know some 1903 sniper rifles with the 8x scopes were used in Korea and Vietnam, but from what I can tell the model 70 (and other rifles like it) was preferred.
"my only real preference for using the 8x scope on the model 70 as opposed to the 1903, is that from everything I have read and heard the 1903 doesn't perform as well as the model 70 did. I have read numerous reports of the model 70 when paired with the 8x scope being a great rifle"
Three observations:
1. The 1903A1 w/ 8x Hi-Lux scope and new Criterion barrel can be a 1 MOA rifle, or even slightly less with tailored handloads - see picture #1 of 0.75 MOA handload for my 1903A1. With factory Hornady 168 AMAX loads its a solid 1 MOA rifle. The caveat is the stock must be carefully fitted to the receiver and thus requires true gunsmith skills, but this applies to the M70 as well...
2. The 1903A1 was used prior to 1953 and thus is legal in CMP vintage sniper matches. The M70 is not legal. This might not matter to you, but I very much enjoy the CMP competitions with my 1903A1, which is shot exclusively at only 300 and 600 yards - except the ocasional handload developement which I do at 100 and 200 yards, which is what the local range offers. (see pic #2).
3. Again, competing might not be your interest, but they are good enough to win matches at 300 and 600 yards. I finally got my gold in 2016 (previously won bronze and silver metals with my 1903A1).
Picture #4 shows my M70 shooter with medium heavy barrel and 10x Lyman scope. It was more expensive that my 1903 replica sniper, and It shoots well too, but it doesn't quite have the same "character" as my 1903A1 which was after all a former military rifle. My 2cts worth...
Three observations:
1. The 1903A1 w/ 8x Hi-Lux scope and new Criterion barrel can be a 1 MOA rifle, or even slightly less with tailored handloads - see picture #1 of 0.75 MOA handload for my 1903A1. With factory Hornady 168 AMAX loads its a solid 1 MOA rifle. The caveat is the stock must be carefully fitted to the receiver and thus requires true gunsmith skills, but this applies to the M70 as well...
2. The 1903A1 was used prior to 1953 and thus is legal in CMP vintage sniper matches. The M70 is not legal. This might not matter to you, but I very much enjoy the CMP competitions with my 1903A1, which is shot exclusively at only 300 and 600 yards - except the ocasional handload developement which I do at 100 and 200 yards, which is what the local range offers. (see pic #2).
3. Again, competing might not be your interest, but they are good enough to win matches at 300 and 600 yards. I finally got my gold in 2016 (previously won bronze and silver metals with my 1903A1).
Picture #4 shows my M70 shooter with medium heavy barrel and 10x Lyman scope. It was more expensive that my 1903 replica sniper, and It shoots well too, but it doesn't quite have the same "character" as my 1903A1 which was after all a former military rifle. My 2cts worth...
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Now when I shoot my Model 70 that came from the RTE shop and my 1903A1 Unertl at a 100 yards. They are pretty much identical in grouping. Now to be honest I haven't tried anything further than that. But at a 100 yards they are both almost identical in grouping.
The early reports that damned the Unertl in the Pacific, actually might not have been even about the Unertl at all. The main report that the Marines cite, that pretty much cancelled the Unertl contract was the one by the Marines Raiders in late 1943. The funny thing though, the Raiders actually were probably talking about the A5 and not the Unertl. The Raiders had requested 40 Model 70 Snipers with the 8X Unertl scopes in 1942 but never received them. Instead they received 40 of the 1903's with A5's. And in their report they only list the rifles as Telescopic sighted M1903's. Which they say they preferred the Army 1903A4 over their telescopic equipped rifles. So no real way to tell which one they were talking about. I have the shipments and weapons counts for many of the Unertl rifles in the Pacific, and I don't show the Raiders getting Unertls. Even when the Raiders disbanded, it doesn't show them having Unertls, only A5's. which went to the 5th Marine Div.
So this Raider report was the main reason the Marines cancelled the Unertl contract in Feb 1944. And went in favor of the 1903A4. But the Marines even in 1945 seem to realize that they might have made a mistake. They cite that they don't know which rifle the Raider report was talking about, and even say they think the Raider report might have been made on the A5, not the Unertl.
The real first islands the Unertls got to stretch their legs were Saipan and then Okinawa. Both of those islands the after action reports were highly favorable of the Unertl. But then the war was over. In Korea, the Unertl was basically declared obsolete, in favor of the M1C in late 1950. But not because the M1C was a better rifle. The Marines just said everyone already knew how to use a M1, and they weren't actually doing an organized sniper course anyways. So the 600 yard M1C was more than adequate compared to the 1000 yard 1903A1 Sniper. Because they weren't trained to use the longer range of the 1903A1. And keeping the 1903A1's in the field meant keeping a different supply of parts compared to the M1C, which could use M1 parts. That is what damned the Unertl in Korea.
The first Unertl rifles didn't make it to the field till about the middle of 1943 in the Pacific and the Raider report several months later doomed them. So it was sort of just bad luck in a way.
I would just sort of figure in price too. If you clone a model 70 into a correct Nam era sniper you will have probably about twice as much as a cloned Unertl. But both are really awesome rifles. Personally myself, I would clone them both to accept the 8X and you could always switch the scope between them.
The early reports that damned the Unertl in the Pacific, actually might not have been even about the Unertl at all. The main report that the Marines cite, that pretty much cancelled the Unertl contract was the one by the Marines Raiders in late 1943. The funny thing though, the Raiders actually were probably talking about the A5 and not the Unertl. The Raiders had requested 40 Model 70 Snipers with the 8X Unertl scopes in 1942 but never received them. Instead they received 40 of the 1903's with A5's. And in their report they only list the rifles as Telescopic sighted M1903's. Which they say they preferred the Army 1903A4 over their telescopic equipped rifles. So no real way to tell which one they were talking about. I have the shipments and weapons counts for many of the Unertl rifles in the Pacific, and I don't show the Raiders getting Unertls. Even when the Raiders disbanded, it doesn't show them having Unertls, only A5's. which went to the 5th Marine Div.
So this Raider report was the main reason the Marines cancelled the Unertl contract in Feb 1944. And went in favor of the 1903A4. But the Marines even in 1945 seem to realize that they might have made a mistake. They cite that they don't know which rifle the Raider report was talking about, and even say they think the Raider report might have been made on the A5, not the Unertl.
The real first islands the Unertls got to stretch their legs were Saipan and then Okinawa. Both of those islands the after action reports were highly favorable of the Unertl. But then the war was over. In Korea, the Unertl was basically declared obsolete, in favor of the M1C in late 1950. But not because the M1C was a better rifle. The Marines just said everyone already knew how to use a M1, and they weren't actually doing an organized sniper course anyways. So the 600 yard M1C was more than adequate compared to the 1000 yard 1903A1 Sniper. Because they weren't trained to use the longer range of the 1903A1. And keeping the 1903A1's in the field meant keeping a different supply of parts compared to the M1C, which could use M1 parts. That is what damned the Unertl in Korea.
The first Unertl rifles didn't make it to the field till about the middle of 1943 in the Pacific and the Raider report several months later doomed them. So it was sort of just bad luck in a way.
I would just sort of figure in price too. If you clone a model 70 into a correct Nam era sniper you will have probably about twice as much as a cloned Unertl. But both are really awesome rifles. Personally myself, I would clone them both to accept the 8X and you could always switch the scope between them.
great info, Cpl Norton. Yes that was what I had heard and that they prefered the Army's rifle setup better. But knowing how shoddy the old reports were, you may be right as to what they were actually referring to. I had always thought that the Marines preference for the Army's sniper setup was strange, considering the Marines' greater marksmanship training and the Army's own reports stating how prone their scopes were to foggin up. And i also see your point price-wise on the model 70 versus the 1904-a4. I am not intending for this to be a competition rifle. I just wanted to have some fun with different sniper rifles from past eras at the gun range from time to time. i am not really interested in buying these rifles for an investment. I want to shoot them and not have to worry about damaging a part of history if I need to have parts replaced. So my final choice is still up in the air. and you are right, i may just do both...
How clone correct do you want to go to? I guess I would factor that in as well. Because I guess if you want to be as accurate as possible that will factor heavily on price. Because you looking for exact serial ranges. The Unertls were basically either a NM or rebarreled NM with the polished bolt blued. The Model 70's they say were just standard pre war sporters, with a free floated stock and a target barrel installed. The Model 70's had changes post WWII that you don't see in the Vietnam Era pics. So the ones you see in the Nam pics are earlier rifles it seems. But that's really both rifles in the simplest of terms. Of course there were other mods and such. But that is the easiest way to think of them.
I do have two Unertl rifles. One is still the original Marine team NM with the Star marked barrel. The bottom is what the Marines called the Special Target. Which was a NM team rifle that was rebarreled with a standard barrel and used in the Marine divisional Matches. The Marines according to the docs swapped stocks on these rifles a lot. But the main thing they kept track of was the barrel. They only used the original Star Gauged and star marked barrels in the National Matches. And they used the rebarreled NM Special Targets in all Marine Competitions like the Elliot Cup.
My model 70was picked up by a Marine Colonel in the early 70's at the RTE shop. We actually found the Marine Armorer who built it. It's just a standard model 70 in the 50,000 range with a 56 dated WRA target barrel, and the whole thing has been rebuilt. All parts refinished and a sanded sporter stock that was free-floated.
As I suggested Earlier, I only have one 8X USMC scope. Mainly bc they are about 4k a pop. And needing 3 would buy me a nice used truck. lol So I have one scope and alternate on whichever rifle I feel like playing with at the time. So like I said, you could really build both and just swap the scope around.
I will go take a pic of the Unertl vs the 1903A4 too. If you can't really decide on which one you like more. If you go with the A4, you would want a 03A3 to make a clone for a A4. For the Unertl you want to have a M1903.
I do have two Unertl rifles. One is still the original Marine team NM with the Star marked barrel. The bottom is what the Marines called the Special Target. Which was a NM team rifle that was rebarreled with a standard barrel and used in the Marine divisional Matches. The Marines according to the docs swapped stocks on these rifles a lot. But the main thing they kept track of was the barrel. They only used the original Star Gauged and star marked barrels in the National Matches. And they used the rebarreled NM Special Targets in all Marine Competitions like the Elliot Cup.
My model 70was picked up by a Marine Colonel in the early 70's at the RTE shop. We actually found the Marine Armorer who built it. It's just a standard model 70 in the 50,000 range with a 56 dated WRA target barrel, and the whole thing has been rebuilt. All parts refinished and a sanded sporter stock that was free-floated.
As I suggested Earlier, I only have one 8X USMC scope. Mainly bc they are about 4k a pop. And needing 3 would buy me a nice used truck. lol So I have one scope and alternate on whichever rifle I feel like playing with at the time. So like I said, you could really build both and just swap the scope around.
I will go take a pic of the Unertl vs the 1903A4 too. If you can't really decide on which one you like more. If you go with the A4, you would want a 03A3 to make a clone for a A4. For the Unertl you want to have a M1903.
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Re-reading your post are you considering the 1903A4 because you think the Marines switched to it? They did state they were going to, but the new documents we found in the Archives look like the changeover never happened other than just a handful of rifles. Pretty much after the conclusion was made to switch over, the whole sniper program was scrapped and other than the rifles already fielded overseas, they just didn't seem to put much effort into them past early 1944. In fact the few A4's I can track document wise in the Marines went to Infantry school stateside for training. There are some pics of them in Marine service. Like 3 or so in the Pacific and one was taken in Korea.
But yeah if you are going with the A4 because you think the Marines switched to them, all the evidence points to they never got any in real numbers.
A4 Vs the Unertl if you want to guage them side by side.
But yeah if you are going with the A4 because you think the Marines switched to them, all the evidence points to they never got any in real numbers.
A4 Vs the Unertl if you want to guage them side by side.
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If you buy the Malcolm 8X do some research regarding modifications to ensure it is a solid scope. Some of the Chinese material isn't up to speed.
Shooting from the bench/non combat the 1903/70 with external adjustable scope is a very capable combo. Easily minute of man.
I shot my 1903 scoped with a 10X Unertl this past weekend. A good amount of my shots were inside the 1 inch ring aiming circle. There were flyers and there is a tendency for the barrel to heat and walk.
You can likely make a more accurate 70 as the bull barrel will benefit and a Douglas should outperform even a star gauged SA that is 70 odd years old.
Either way you go they are great fun and certainly draw attention when they come out of the bag.
If you are not really going to compete I recommend finding a Unertl 10X scope, The mounts will be worlds better.
Keep us informed on your build.
As an aside if you go to the CMP bolt action forums a member there by ID - Rootsy - did a tutorial on his competition build and it is very detailed and informative, search him by name and try to find that post by him.
Shooting from the bench/non combat the 1903/70 with external adjustable scope is a very capable combo. Easily minute of man.
I shot my 1903 scoped with a 10X Unertl this past weekend. A good amount of my shots were inside the 1 inch ring aiming circle. There were flyers and there is a tendency for the barrel to heat and walk.
You can likely make a more accurate 70 as the bull barrel will benefit and a Douglas should outperform even a star gauged SA that is 70 odd years old.
Either way you go they are great fun and certainly draw attention when they come out of the bag.
If you are not really going to compete I recommend finding a Unertl 10X scope, The mounts will be worlds better.
Keep us informed on your build.
As an aside if you go to the CMP bolt action forums a member there by ID - Rootsy - did a tutorial on his competition build and it is very detailed and informative, search him by name and try to find that post by him.
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