F T/R Competition Bipod placement and accuracy

[Coyotejunki]

Has anyone noticed an improvement in groups with the bipod mounted closer to the muzzle, and perhaps a longer forearm on the stock?

I understand why barrels are generally long on F/TR and palma rifles but there just seems to be a lot of barrel hanging in front of the bipod.

Been wondering about balance point too. Is there a generally accepted balance point for F/TR rifles, and trying to keep the muzzle jump to a minimum?

 

[sdman11890]

Re: Bipod placement and accuracy

The thing I've heard lately is pull the bipod in closer to the action. You swing on target faster (doesn't matter for F T/R, but for other applications) and supposedly it's better at reducing barrel jump and torque.

 

[scaxeman]

Re: Bipod placement and accuracy

Generally speaking, for F-T/R, you are better off mounting your bipod as far forward as you can... More "wheelbase" leads to more stability, AS LONG AS the attachment point is solid. Having your bipod out at the muzzle won't help you if it's mounted on a wet noodle!

For a tactical style rifle, there are obviously other considerations!

Darrell

 

[BigtimeAub]

Re: Bipod placement and accuracy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sdman11890</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thing I've heard lately is pull the bipod in closer to the action. You swing on target faster (doesn't matter for F T/R, but for other applications) and supposedly it's better at reducing barrel jump and torque. </div></div>

Actually, this would matter a great deal in F T/R. Just like F-Class Open, precision is the name of the game. In tactical events, you're just looking more for a hit than you are for consolidated groups. You are correct about being able to swing on target faster with the axis point being closer to the action, your scope. In F T/R, this would greatly exaggerate the slightest movements from the buttstock end of the rifle.

Placing the bipod as far forward as possible allows for a much more stable platform and will greatly diminish such movements, thus allowing for a higher probability of staying on target as precisely as possible, especially with the longer tubes. However, it is important to note that the bipod isn't going to have any effect on the performance of the barrel, and this is especially true for those who free-float their barrels as the barrel is still making it's only point of contact at the face of the action while the bipod's only point of contact is with the fore-end of the stock itself. If you wanted to reduce the "whip" effect of the barrel (the harmonics of the barrel), you would have to have a fore-end the entire length of the barrel, making contact with the entire length of the barrel and strapping the barrel down to the fore-end so that there isn't and disengagement of the barrel in contact from the fore-end (but I don't know anyone that would want to do this).

The bipod itself is nothing more than a pivot point for the rifle but also holds up the rifle in the front so that you don't have to. The only other thing that the bipod can do for you is help reduce rifle hop. I'm not talking about just the barrel, because it's going to move regardless. But if you learn to preload your rifle, pushing forward with a constant, steady, repeatable pressure, you can greatly reduce the amount of hop in the rifle that is caused by recoil. With that being said, some shooters like this approach (myself included), and some like using a bipod that allows for recoil, as if sliding on rails. You really just have to figure out what works best for you.

At least that's my theory anyway (based on USMC artillery physics and what not).

 

[Irokcrawl]

I have my GG&G pretty far foward and even when loading the bipod a good bit I still get a little hop. Im going to move it back towards the action some more and see if that helps. Here is a pic that shows how far forward towards the muzzle it is. It is rock solid steady though until I pull the trigger though but the hop is unacceptable, I have tried it with my atlas and an older harris and same problem but I have to modify the rail a little so it will slide back further. I think I will actually move it back today and see if that helps.

EDIT: just noticed this was in the F class sub forum. I am getting the hop while shooting off a mat in the prone position. Maybe those with more experience can lend a hand.

 

[Denys]

I also mount my bipod as far forward as possible; longer wheelbase (good term) and it reduces movement at firing and is much more stable.

 

[Lowlight]

Muscling the gun is never a good idea, that includes engaging moving targets.

The the bipod should be as far forward as possible, FClass or Tactical. If you move your hips you maintain your NPA, which is a good thing. Steering the rifle by muscling it goes against the fundamentals and will bite you.

Who ever said move it closer is wrong on so many levels, odds are someone got lucky once and decided it was the way to go and is now trying to sell their bad idea to the uninformed.

 

[Down South]

There are two schools of thought on bipod placement. One is as far forward as possible as most guys do it then also there are guys like Dan Pohlabel with the flex bipod that recommends using it mounted two inches ahead of the center point weight wise of the rifle. That puts more weight on the bipod and is suppose to reduce the hop. I personally have always used my bipods as far forward as possible but im gonna try moving it back toward the action and see what happens.

 

[Lowlight]

Dan Pohlabel with the flex bipod that recommends using it mounted two inches ahead of the center point weight wise of the rifle. That puts more weight on the bipod and is suppose to reduce the hop.

There is always something, reducing bipod hop has everything to body position and nothing to do with where the bipod is mounted.

 

[damoncali]

There is always something, reducing bipod hop has everything to body position and nothing to do with where the bipod is mounted.

Gotta agree here. Rifles want to hop because of recoil, not the location of the bipod. Moving the weight farther back is just going to make it worse. It's also going to make the rifle more twitchy, since there is no "wheelbase" (great term whoever said that) with which to hold the rifle steady. Maybe there's some weird situation in which you want that, but I don't know what that would be.

 

[DropinLead]

If nothing else, conceptually more weight up front the more it would want to keep the barrel down. Farther back goes contrary to what seems reasonable.

Anyhow I would love to figure out how shoot a 308 and a Harris bi-pod not hoping when on concrete like shooting ranges.

Not saying you cant make it not hop with body position, certainly I suck. People do it, I can't figure out how.

 

[Denys]

It's going to be very difficult to prevent a .308 on a Harris bipod from bouncing, especially on concrete. I'm not saying it's impossible but I am saying that I have other things to do. If the goal is to be competitive in F-class, you would be far better served with a different bipod. To be honest the Harris is about as low as you can go for a bipod in F-class. The accuracy requirements of the discipline are such that you are purposefully handicapping yourself by using a Harris bipod.

I realize some people insist on using Harris bipods with their 18 inch barreled rifles pushing 168SMKs or 175SMK because they want to prove a point, or that's what snipers do and look with disdain at the guys and gals who are winning with the 30+ inch barrels on top of whizbang bipods flinging high priced jacketed lead downrange; they are just not playing "fair" or they are not "reality-based", or just watch them taking their high-falutin equipment in the woods or in combat, or what not. The thing is, these sophisticated rifles and the ammo are not designed for the woods or combat; they are design for F-TR competition, hitting a very small target at long distances, again and again and again. F-class is not sniping, F-class is F-class; use the appropriate equipment or get used to never winning.

 

[XTR]

... F-class is not sniping, F-class is F-class; ....

True dat! The day a target shoots back I quit.

 

[Tactical]

Muscling the gun is never a good idea, that includes engaging moving targets.

The the bipod should be as far forward as possible, FClass or Tactical. If you move your hips you maintain your NPA, which is a good thing. Steering the rifle by muscling it goes against the fundamentals and will bite you.

Who ever said move it closer is wrong on so many levels, odds are someone got lucky once and decided it was the way to go and is now trying to sell their bad idea to the uninformed.

Frank could not be more correct. To say a closer bipod promotes accuracy is like saying a pistol is easier to hit a 100 yard target with than using a rifle

 

[Denys]

Indeed. It's just that I read and hear about people wanting to use "tactical" (whatever that means) equipment because that's what "the snipers" use. Then they get bent out of shape because they can stay on target or get any kind of decent score at 1000 yards.

What people do not seem to understand is that "one shot, one kill" is not reality at 1000 yards with a 20-24 inch .308 with military sniper ammo. Inside of 600 yards, sure. Inside of 800 yards, as long as the wind is called accurately and you have the exact distance, sometimes. Past that, stuff happens to .308 launched bullets so for competition, you need to use appropriate equipment to be competitive, especially when the other shooters are doing just that.

 

[Lowlight]

I have done at least six lessons on controlling recoil so the bipod won't hop, including on concrete.

Just go to YouTube and there are several videos on it there. It's an old played out subject at this point, and it's all about body position and technique. I even do it on concrete with a 20" rifle with no brake or suppressor.

Agree F Class is F Class right tool for the job.

 

[MrMarty51]

First time I ever used a bipod was in Basic training.
They issued us a "Clothes Pin" style of bipod. It could be clipped to the barrel wherever You liked it.
I always clipped mine right behind the flash reducer on the M16 rifle. the nice thing about the clothes pin, it was made of stamped steel and so it was light and the rifle could be lifted and swung to wherever the targets were coming from.
A very nice bipod if they could be found.
I am not sure what the real name for them is, I always called them a clothes pin bipod because of the way they spread open then closed around the barrel when released.

 

[MrMarty51]

HAH !!!! I found and bought one.
USGI-Surplus-Rifle-Bipod- | eBay

 

[Denys]

That will be an excellent device, especially for the 1000 yard competition. :big grin:

 

[MrMarty51]

That will be an excellent device, especially for the 1000 yard competition. :big grin:

I havent been out shooting in a long while, but, soon as it gets here, I`ll be a itchin to try it out. I got a couple of projects finished so I now will have a few free moments to geterdone. LOL

 

[Denys]

You do realize I was joking. Anything that attaches to the barrel is to be avoided at all costs for precision shooting.

 

[MrMarty51]

You do realize I was joking. Anything that attaches to the barrel is to be avoided at all costs for precision shooting.

HMMMmmmm, those targets out at the 600 meter line did`nt seem to notice, they "ALL" went down.
OH Yeah, that`d be only 656 yards, guess that is`nt long range shooting though.

 

[Denys]

The target going down is not the issue. What score did they show when they came back up?

 

[MrMarty51]

The target going down is not the issue. What score did they show when they came back up?

Waist up silloette targets, no score, they went down, that was the score. Probably gutshotum. LOLOLOL

 

[Denys]

Silly me, I thought this was an F-TR discussion.

 

[Deadshot2]

Anyhow I would love to figure out how shoot a 308 and a Harris bi-pod not hoping when on concrete like shooting ranges.

I've pretty much solved this issue for me. I went to a local carpet shop and asked for Dumpster Diving privileges. Found a nice piece of carpet that had enough nap thickness to let the legs of the bipod dig in. I cut the carpet so it fit the width of the shooting bench to the back edge. This way I had a firm anchor for the bipod with my rear bag and arms on the rear of the carpet. This keeps the carpet from moving around on the shooting bench. I keep the rolled carpet in the back of my truck so I can use it in the field. If you're looking for a camo-like mat, just find a piece of carpet with the right "dirt" color BTW, my shooting mat was FREE. No charge for Dumpster Diving and the carpet was new (a scrap from an installation).

I don't use the harris bipod on my .308, preferring the Sinclair Tactical bipod. Still uses the same type of rubber feet but after a 50 round session they haven't moved more than a 1/2 " from their initial position.

 

[MrMarty51]

That carpet thing sounds like an excellent problem solver for the concrete shooting benches at Our local gun club.
Now, next time I go up town, I`ll be on a mission. LOL

 

[Deadshot2]

I`ll be on a mission. LOL

Just stay away from any carpet shops near a "Homeless MIssion". The "bums" won't like you taking their bedding material.



FWIW, I find the Carpet to be just as good as many "Shooting Mats". If you want more comfort, just add a backpacking pad to the bottom where you place your elbows and "bod". Being somewhat of a cheap bastard I have yet to buy a manufactured shooting mat.

 

[MrMarty51]

Just stay away from any carpet shops near a "Homeless MIssion". The "bums" won't like you taking their bedding material.



FWIW, I find the Carpet to be just as good as many "Shooting Mats". If you want more comfort, just add a backpacking pad to the bottom where you place your elbows and "bod". Being somewhat of a cheap bastard I have yet to buy a manufactured shooting mat.

I have a couple of old wool blankets I`ve been using to lay on out in the field shooting P.Dogs. This carpet thing sounds a LOT more cushiony though. LOL
Yeah, hope the homeless has`nt been sleeping in the dumpster with the carpets, could pick up a critter er two. LOL

 

[DropinLead]

It's going to be very difficult to prevent a .308 on a Harris bipod from bouncing, especially on concrete. I'm not saying it's impossible but I am saying that I have other things to do. If the goal is to be competitive in F-class, you would be far better served with a different bipod. To be honest the Harris is about as low as you can go for a bipod in F-class. The accuracy requirements of the discipline are such that you are purposefully handicapping yourself by using a Harris bipod.

I realize some people insist on using Harris bipods with their 18 inch barreled rifles pushing 168SMKs or 175SMK because they want to prove a point, or that's what snipers do and look with disdain at the guys and gals who are winning with the 30+ inPch barrels on top of whizbang bipods flinging high priced jacketed lead downrange; they are just not playing "fair" or they are not "reality-based", or just watch them taking their high-falutin equipment in the woods or in combat, or what not. The thing is, these sophisticated rifles and the ammo are not designed for the woods or combat; they are design for F-TR competition, hitting a very small target at long distances, again and again and again. F-class is not sniping, F-class is F-class; use the appropriate equipment or get used to never winning.

Yep wow, that is so true and sums up a HUGE chunk of folks out here.

Speaking of bipod I am making one for my A4 stock for 300yd fclass. I'll post it when done. It mounts just in front of my tactical magazine so it does not interfere when swinging on target. I kid, I kid.. But I am making one and it mounts way up front.

What about a bipod that is far forward but has hard mount points further back not up where the bipod is. Think about that for a minute....

 

[DropinLead]

I have done at least six lessons on controlling recoil so the bipod won't hop, including on concrete.

Just go to YouTube and there are several videos on it there. It's an old played out subject at this point, and it's all about body position and technique. I even do it on concrete with a 20" rifle with no brake or suppressor.

Understood, Found the issue, was not technique.

Good vids though thanks.