Suppressors Blackout or whisper
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Re: Blackout or whisper
Any decent sub barrel will have a pistol position gas block because the sub pressures are so low. With a common sub powder say H110 or N110 you're only talking 20,000psi max.
With higher super pressures (50-55K) you would then need an adjustable gas block to avoid bolt bounce. Palidin Machine makes a great one. He knows what he's doing and will make you a custom block depending on the diameter of your gas hole.
The slower powders like 4198 will work but then you run into the issue of unburnt powder in your can. 4198 will leave 20% unburnt powder out of a 16" barrel. N110 is nearly a complete burn entering your can. It's probably a non-issue but I don't like a lot of powder burning outside the barrel. N110 is accurate and quiet.
Any decent sub barrel will have a pistol position gas block because the sub pressures are so low. With a common sub powder say H110 or N110 you're only talking 20,000psi max.
With higher super pressures (50-55K) you would then need an adjustable gas block to avoid bolt bounce. Palidin Machine makes a great one. He knows what he's doing and will make you a custom block depending on the diameter of your gas hole.
The slower powders like 4198 will work but then you run into the issue of unburnt powder in your can. 4198 will leave 20% unburnt powder out of a 16" barrel. N110 is nearly a complete burn entering your can. It's probably a non-issue but I don't like a lot of powder burning outside the barrel. N110 is accurate and quiet.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the accuracy looks good but how is the muzzle flash and the use with night vision? </div></div>
Using N-110, Sierra 220s, a 9 inch barrel and a Shark 308 can there is almost no muzzle flash through the NV scope.
The same load through a 16 inch boltgun and a SF 338 can has no muzzle flash.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mdesign</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the accuracy looks good but how is the muzzle flash and the use with night vision? </div></div>
Using N-110, Sierra 220s, a 9 inch barrel and a Shark 308 can there is almost no muzzle flash through the NV scope.
The same load through a 16 inch boltgun and a SF 338 can has no muzzle flash.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any decent sub barrel will have a pistol position gas block because the sub pressures are so low. With a common sub powder say H110 or N110 you're only talking 20,000psi max.
With higher super pressures (50-55K) you would then need an adjustable gas block to avoid bolt bounce. Palidin Machine makes a great one. He knows what he's doing and will make you a custom block depending on the diameter of your gas hole. </div></div>
Yes but like you said, if you want N110 to work, the gun cannot shoot full power ammo. So you are getting into a dedicated subsonic gun - unless you have an adjustable gas system - which would cause malfunctions if you were on the wrong setting when you needed the gun the most.
That is how most Whispers(R) were set up. We got away from this on the Blackout, and with the way Noveske and AAC are making the guns - and Remington is making ammo, one does not need to turn down the gas to work with full power ammo. Also Blackout works fine with 16 inch carbine gas and only needs pistol gas for barrels shorter than 16 inches. Noveske used to do pistol gas for Whisper but changed it. AAC and Noveske both went with carbine gas on the 16 inch barrels for Blackout. But pistol gas on a 16 inch is fine also - though a bit like using carbine gas with 5.56mm rather than mid-length so there is more gas port erosion and higher extraction pressures.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any decent sub barrel will have a pistol position gas block because the sub pressures are so low. With a common sub powder say H110 or N110 you're only talking 20,000psi max.
With higher super pressures (50-55K) you would then need an adjustable gas block to avoid bolt bounce. Palidin Machine makes a great one. He knows what he's doing and will make you a custom block depending on the diameter of your gas hole. </div></div>
Yes but like you said, if you want N110 to work, the gun cannot shoot full power ammo. So you are getting into a dedicated subsonic gun - unless you have an adjustable gas system - which would cause malfunctions if you were on the wrong setting when you needed the gun the most.
That is how most Whispers(R) were set up. We got away from this on the Blackout, and with the way Noveske and AAC are making the guns - and Remington is making ammo, one does not need to turn down the gas to work with full power ammo. Also Blackout works fine with 16 inch carbine gas and only needs pistol gas for barrels shorter than 16 inches. Noveske used to do pistol gas for Whisper but changed it. AAC and Noveske both went with carbine gas on the 16 inch barrels for Blackout. But pistol gas on a 16 inch is fine also - though a bit like using carbine gas with 5.56mm rather than mid-length so there is more gas port erosion and higher extraction pressures.
Re: Blackout or whisper
Thanks Hoser...good to hear!
Not sure I'm following the discussion on the adjustable gas block. Are you saying that with the 300 Blk you can run it in SBR mode and still cycle a gas action or that it has to be specifically set up your barrel/load so you don't run into reliability issues.
This cartridge would really be of interest to me if I could run it subsonic for good suppression and still get reliable function. It would be icing on the cake if you could run super and sub through the same setup.
Thanks Hoser...good to hear!
Not sure I'm following the discussion on the adjustable gas block. Are you saying that with the 300 Blk you can run it in SBR mode and still cycle a gas action or that it has to be specifically set up your barrel/load so you don't run into reliability issues.
This cartridge would really be of interest to me if I could run it subsonic for good suppression and still get reliable function. It would be icing on the cake if you could run super and sub through the same setup.
Re: Blackout or whisper
With an AAC 300 AAC BLACKOUT 9" or 16" upper you can shoot:
subsonic unsuppressed
subsonic suppressed
supersonic unsuppressed
supersonic suppressed
And not adjust anything. You can load a magazine alternating subsonic and supersonic ammo and the brass will eject to about the same spot.
Blackout was a clean-slate gun and ammo package with a goal of cleaning up the messiness of the 300 Fireball, 300-221, and 300 Whisper(R) being made so many different ways. It just works.
With an AAC 300 AAC BLACKOUT 9" or 16" upper you can shoot:
subsonic unsuppressed
subsonic suppressed
supersonic unsuppressed
supersonic suppressed
And not adjust anything. You can load a magazine alternating subsonic and supersonic ammo and the brass will eject to about the same spot.
Blackout was a clean-slate gun and ammo package with a goal of cleaning up the messiness of the 300 Fireball, 300-221, and 300 Whisper(R) being made so many different ways. It just works.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well let us know if the new case is any different.
What kind of silencer did you shoot with it?</div></div>
Just a heads up. I finally went out and chronograph and the Rem. SS was running between 1125 and 1153fps. 5rounds.
Also the Corbon whisper was 1020 to 1045fps for 5rounds.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well let us know if the new case is any different.
What kind of silencer did you shoot with it?</div></div>
Just a heads up. I finally went out and chronograph and the Rem. SS was running between 1125 and 1153fps. 5rounds.
Also the Corbon whisper was 1020 to 1045fps for 5rounds.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Better question. Which chamber has a higher accuracy potential?
Robert is on record as stating 4moa@ 100yds is par for remington sub loads and his blackout chamber.
That's not what the .300-221/whisper guys are getting....</div></div>
The Blackout test barrels shoot 0.85 MOA all day long (50 round averages (10 groups of 5 shots each)) with supersonic ammo. </div></div>
And I just ate some frozen pizza. Equally as relevant of a point.
I stated your remington factory sub loads and chamber shoot like crap. You've even publicly posted the figure before. Off hand as I stated I believe you said it was 4moa.
You stated something about super loads, which is besides the point. As relevant as my lunch.
Then you posted more irrelevant hand load data.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">What does a 9" AAC barrel and Remington factory sub loads shoot? That's the question here.</span></span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Better question. Which chamber has a higher accuracy potential?
Robert is on record as stating 4moa@ 100yds is par for remington sub loads and his blackout chamber.
That's not what the .300-221/whisper guys are getting....</div></div>
The Blackout test barrels shoot 0.85 MOA all day long (50 round averages (10 groups of 5 shots each)) with supersonic ammo. </div></div>
And I just ate some frozen pizza. Equally as relevant of a point.
I stated your remington factory sub loads and chamber shoot like crap. You've even publicly posted the figure before. Off hand as I stated I believe you said it was 4moa.
You stated something about super loads, which is besides the point. As relevant as my lunch.
Then you posted more irrelevant hand load data.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">What does a 9" AAC barrel and Remington factory sub loads shoot? That's the question here.</span></span>
Re: Blackout or whisper
Remington set the shoulder back the same as Corbon. If he's shooting Corbon, headspace is not an issue.
I'll post what I posted in a private message.
The problem with that ammo is Remington has seated the bullet too far in to the case. That cartridge will never be accurate with their OAL. Whether they can keep it consistently subsonic for varying temperatures and altitudes may be inconsequential unless you don't mind 4" groups at 100 yards. The Blackout will be a huge subsonic failure if Remington doesn't change what it's doing. However, it looks like AAC isn't focusing on just suppressors. It appears they are selling AR-15 uppers and now focusing on the supersonic aspects of the cartridge. To me, there are better solutions for more power in an AR-15, one being the 6.8SPC II or maybe Wilson's 7.62x40. But what do I know.
If you plan on shooting Remington sub I wouldn't waste my time unless they change it. However, perhaps Hornady will do a better job with the 208gr A-Max in the Whisper. If that proves to be accurate, the Blackout may be a winner.
Once again, I'm not bashing the Blackout. I love the push but Remington is not helping with that sub load. They need to seat the bullet out. If they are worried about case capacity and detonation, then they shouldn't be making it under the Remington name. If they are worried about run-out after feed ramp, perhaps they should put a crimp in it. I can't see 3 or really 4 moa as a winner. But maybe it doesn't matter for close quarters.
Remington set the shoulder back the same as Corbon. If he's shooting Corbon, headspace is not an issue.
I'll post what I posted in a private message.
The problem with that ammo is Remington has seated the bullet too far in to the case. That cartridge will never be accurate with their OAL. Whether they can keep it consistently subsonic for varying temperatures and altitudes may be inconsequential unless you don't mind 4" groups at 100 yards. The Blackout will be a huge subsonic failure if Remington doesn't change what it's doing. However, it looks like AAC isn't focusing on just suppressors. It appears they are selling AR-15 uppers and now focusing on the supersonic aspects of the cartridge. To me, there are better solutions for more power in an AR-15, one being the 6.8SPC II or maybe Wilson's 7.62x40. But what do I know.
If you plan on shooting Remington sub I wouldn't waste my time unless they change it. However, perhaps Hornady will do a better job with the 208gr A-Max in the Whisper. If that proves to be accurate, the Blackout may be a winner.
Once again, I'm not bashing the Blackout. I love the push but Remington is not helping with that sub load. They need to seat the bullet out. If they are worried about case capacity and detonation, then they shouldn't be making it under the Remington name. If they are worried about run-out after feed ramp, perhaps they should put a crimp in it. I can't see 3 or really 4 moa as a winner. But maybe it doesn't matter for close quarters.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem with that ammo is Remington has seated the bullet too far in to the case.</div></div>
OAL does not seem to make much of a difference. As I said, short supersonic ammo is very accurate.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem with that ammo is Remington has seated the bullet too far in to the case.</div></div>
OAL does not seem to make much of a difference. As I said, short supersonic ammo is very accurate.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And I just ate some frozen pizza. Equally as relevant of a point.</div></div>
It is very relevant. You said there is an issue with the Blackout chamber. I was showing there is no issue.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And I just ate some frozen pizza. Equally as relevant of a point.</div></div>
It is very relevant. You said there is an issue with the Blackout chamber. I was showing there is no issue.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They need to seat the bullet out.</div></div>
If you want longer-loaded OAL ammo, CorBon has that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They need to seat the bullet out.</div></div>
If you want longer-loaded OAL ammo, CorBon has that.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">What does a 9" AAC barrel and Remington factory sub loads shoot? That's the question here.</span></span> </div></div>
4 MOA is not the case at all. The 9 inch spec sheet lists the precision:
http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/INFO-300AACUpper-Oct18.pdf
This was based on hundreds of shots from many uppers - with all shots counted.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BachelorJack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">What does a 9" AAC barrel and Remington factory sub loads shoot? That's the question here.</span></span> </div></div>
4 MOA is not the case at all. The 9 inch spec sheet lists the precision:
http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/INFO-300AACUpper-Oct18.pdf
This was based on hundreds of shots from many uppers - with all shots counted.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What was the headspace running? Did it pass the go/nogo gauges?</div></div>
Yes it passed the go/nogo gauges. Installed by a competent gunsmith, not me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What was the headspace running? Did it pass the go/nogo gauges?</div></div>
Yes it passed the go/nogo gauges. Installed by a competent gunsmith, not me.
Re: Blackout or whisper
I am getting way better then 4moa also. I haven't done any serious bench testing, but its holding less then a 1" at 50yds fairly easy. And is nice with the CorBon ammo, sounds like disconnecting a air hose. Get more of a hiss then bang.
I am getting way better then 4moa also. I haven't done any serious bench testing, but its holding less then a 1" at 50yds fairly easy. And is nice with the CorBon ammo, sounds like disconnecting a air hose. Get more of a hiss then bang.
Re: Blackout or whisper
Savage gives up on the 300 Blackout. I find this really odd but not super surprising. I'd like to think they are being really honest since what they are saying is pretty much what I've experienced (my June 13th, 2011 post). Some thoughts from anyone with inside perceptive on their testing would be an interesting read.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/05/savage-cancels-300-aac-blackout-carbine-project/
Savage gives up on the 300 Blackout. I find this really odd but not super surprising. I'd like to think they are being really honest since what they are saying is pretty much what I've experienced (my June 13th, 2011 post). Some thoughts from anyone with inside perceptive on their testing would be an interesting read.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/05/savage-cancels-300-aac-blackout-carbine-project/
Re: Blackout or whisper
I'm working my way through the next build and I'm coming out with "neither the Blackout nor the Whisper." I'm not done, but I seem to be heading off in another direction, a 6.8 with a 7 twist barrel (16") stabilizing a 200gn bullet. The idea behind it is the dual nature (subsonic vs supersonic) performance. Whereas it is true that the 220 or 240 has the advantage of mass muzzle energy in the W/BO in subsonic, it actually is a slight advantage compared to the 6.8 200gn.
But to me, as important is full velocity running as well. Where the HUGE improvement comes in with the 6.8 is when one looks at the performance of the 6.8 (7 or 8 twist) at supersonic speeds. The 6.8 has a very real advantage in down range muzzle energy, longer effective range and flatter trajectory. That which makes the 300s impressive in the subsonic mode (smaller case volume) is a limiter on the ss end. That leaner .30s that top off the BO when going supersonic compromises everything. The 6.8 is just a great ss performer.
In my search for a true dual cartridge (SUB/SS) my search is leading to pass on either the Blackout or the whisper.
Don't mean to hyjack.
I'm working my way through the next build and I'm coming out with "neither the Blackout nor the Whisper." I'm not done, but I seem to be heading off in another direction, a 6.8 with a 7 twist barrel (16") stabilizing a 200gn bullet. The idea behind it is the dual nature (subsonic vs supersonic) performance. Whereas it is true that the 220 or 240 has the advantage of mass muzzle energy in the W/BO in subsonic, it actually is a slight advantage compared to the 6.8 200gn.
But to me, as important is full velocity running as well. Where the HUGE improvement comes in with the 6.8 is when one looks at the performance of the 6.8 (7 or 8 twist) at supersonic speeds. The 6.8 has a very real advantage in down range muzzle energy, longer effective range and flatter trajectory. That which makes the 300s impressive in the subsonic mode (smaller case volume) is a limiter on the ss end. That leaner .30s that top off the BO when going supersonic compromises everything. The 6.8 is just a great ss performer.
In my search for a true dual cartridge (SUB/SS) my search is leading to pass on either the Blackout or the whisper.
Don't mean to hyjack.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm working my way through the next build and I'm coming out with "neither the Blackout nor the Whisper." I'm not done, but I seem to be heading off in another direction, a 6.8 with a 7 twist barrel (16") stabilizing a 200gn bullet. The idea behind it is the dual nature (subsonic vs supersonic) performance. Whereas it is true that the 220 or 240 has the advantage of mass muzzle energy in the W/BO in subsonic, it actually is a slight advantage compared to the 6.8 200gn.
But to me, as important is full velocity running as well. Where the HUGE improvement comes in with the 6.8 is when one looks at the performance of the 6.8 (7 or 8 twist) at supersonic speeds. The 6.8 has a very real advantage in down range muzzle energy, longer effective range and flatter trajectory. That which makes the 300s impressive in the subsonic mode (smaller case volume) is a limiter on the ss end. That leaner .30s that top off the BO when going supersonic compromises everything. The 6.8 is just a great ss performer.
In my search for a true dual cartridge (SUB/SS) my search is leading to pass on either the Blackout or the whisper.
Don't mean to hyjack. </div></div>
Your findings are correct. While the 300 preforms well as a fun sub gun, the supersonic side just isn't there with the same velocity, power and trajectory as a much cheaper 7.62X39.
The 6.8 is a much better SS choice and as time goes on, the 6.8BSP will move forward also, giving users the most power from a AR15 and the option to go subsonic.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm working my way through the next build and I'm coming out with "neither the Blackout nor the Whisper." I'm not done, but I seem to be heading off in another direction, a 6.8 with a 7 twist barrel (16") stabilizing a 200gn bullet. The idea behind it is the dual nature (subsonic vs supersonic) performance. Whereas it is true that the 220 or 240 has the advantage of mass muzzle energy in the W/BO in subsonic, it actually is a slight advantage compared to the 6.8 200gn.
But to me, as important is full velocity running as well. Where the HUGE improvement comes in with the 6.8 is when one looks at the performance of the 6.8 (7 or 8 twist) at supersonic speeds. The 6.8 has a very real advantage in down range muzzle energy, longer effective range and flatter trajectory. That which makes the 300s impressive in the subsonic mode (smaller case volume) is a limiter on the ss end. That leaner .30s that top off the BO when going supersonic compromises everything. The 6.8 is just a great ss performer.
In my search for a true dual cartridge (SUB/SS) my search is leading to pass on either the Blackout or the whisper.
Don't mean to hyjack. </div></div>
Your findings are correct. While the 300 preforms well as a fun sub gun, the supersonic side just isn't there with the same velocity, power and trajectory as a much cheaper 7.62X39.
The 6.8 is a much better SS choice and as time goes on, the 6.8BSP will move forward also, giving users the most power from a AR15 and the option to go subsonic.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Savage gives up on the 300 Blackout. I find this really odd but not super surprising. I'd like to think they are being really honest since what they are saying is pretty much what I've experienced (my June 13th, 2011 post). Some thoughts from anyone with inside perceptive on their testing would be an interesting read.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/05/savage-cancels-300-aac-blackout-carbine-project/ </div></div>
As the hype wears off, I think you will see more follow suit. Savage didn't get where they are at making bad choices...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Savage gives up on the 300 Blackout. I find this really odd but not super surprising. I'd like to think they are being really honest since what they are saying is pretty much what I've experienced (my June 13th, 2011 post). Some thoughts from anyone with inside perceptive on their testing would be an interesting read.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/05/savage-cancels-300-aac-blackout-carbine-project/ </div></div>
As the hype wears off, I think you will see more follow suit. Savage didn't get where they are at making bad choices...
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm working my way through the next build and I'm coming out with "neither the Blackout nor the Whisper." I'm not done, but I seem to be heading off in another direction, a 6.8 with a 7 twist barrel (16") stabilizing a 200gn bullet. The idea behind it is the dual nature (subsonic vs supersonic) performance. Whereas it is true that the 220 or 240 has the advantage of mass muzzle energy in the W/BO in subsonic, it actually is a slight advantage compared to the 6.8 200gn.
But to me, as important is full velocity running as well. Where the HUGE improvement comes in with the 6.8 is when one looks at the performance of the 6.8 (7 or 8 twist) at supersonic speeds. The 6.8 has a very real advantage in down range muzzle energy, longer effective range and flatter trajectory. That which makes the 300s impressive in the subsonic mode (smaller case volume) is a limiter on the ss end. That leaner .30s that top off the BO when going supersonic compromises everything. The 6.8 is just a great ss performer.
In my search for a true dual cartridge (SUB/SS) my search is leading to pass on either the Blackout or the whisper.
Don't mean to hyjack. </div></div>
Your findings are correct. While the 300 preforms well as a fun sub gun, the supersonic side just isn't there with the same velocity, power and trajectory as a much cheaper 7.62X39.
The 6.8 is a much better SS choice and as time goes on, the 6.8BSP will move forward also, giving users the most power from a AR15 and the option to go subsonic. </div></div>Is there something shorter than 16" available in 6.8 BSP?
300 BLK is commonly sold in a maneuverable 8".
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm working my way through the next build and I'm coming out with "neither the Blackout nor the Whisper." I'm not done, but I seem to be heading off in another direction, a 6.8 with a 7 twist barrel (16") stabilizing a 200gn bullet. The idea behind it is the dual nature (subsonic vs supersonic) performance. Whereas it is true that the 220 or 240 has the advantage of mass muzzle energy in the W/BO in subsonic, it actually is a slight advantage compared to the 6.8 200gn.
But to me, as important is full velocity running as well. Where the HUGE improvement comes in with the 6.8 is when one looks at the performance of the 6.8 (7 or 8 twist) at supersonic speeds. The 6.8 has a very real advantage in down range muzzle energy, longer effective range and flatter trajectory. That which makes the 300s impressive in the subsonic mode (smaller case volume) is a limiter on the ss end. That leaner .30s that top off the BO when going supersonic compromises everything. The 6.8 is just a great ss performer.
In my search for a true dual cartridge (SUB/SS) my search is leading to pass on either the Blackout or the whisper.
Don't mean to hyjack. </div></div>
Your findings are correct. While the 300 preforms well as a fun sub gun, the supersonic side just isn't there with the same velocity, power and trajectory as a much cheaper 7.62X39.
The 6.8 is a much better SS choice and as time goes on, the 6.8BSP will move forward also, giving users the most power from a AR15 and the option to go subsonic. </div></div>Is there something shorter than 16" available in 6.8 BSP?
300 BLK is commonly sold in a maneuverable 8".
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: d00d</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm working my way through the next build and I'm coming out with "neither the Blackout nor the Whisper." I'm not done, but I seem to be heading off in another direction, a 6.8 with a 7 twist barrel (16") stabilizing a 200gn bullet. The idea behind it is the dual nature (subsonic vs supersonic) performance. Whereas it is true that the 220 or 240 has the advantage of mass muzzle energy in the W/BO in subsonic, it actually is a slight advantage compared to the 6.8 200gn.
But to me, as important is full velocity running as well. Where the HUGE improvement comes in with the 6.8 is when one looks at the performance of the 6.8 (7 or 8 twist) at supersonic speeds. The 6.8 has a very real advantage in down range muzzle energy, longer effective range and flatter trajectory. That which makes the 300s impressive in the subsonic mode (smaller case volume) is a limiter on the ss end. That leaner .30s that top off the BO when going supersonic compromises everything. The 6.8 is just a great ss performer.
In my search for a true dual cartridge (SUB/SS) my search is leading to pass on either the Blackout or the whisper.
Don't mean to hyjack. </div></div>
Your findings are correct. While the 300 preforms well as a fun sub gun, the supersonic side just isn't there with the same velocity, power and trajectory as a much cheaper 7.62X39.
The 6.8 is a much better SS choice and as time goes on, the 6.8BSP will move forward also, giving users the most power from a AR15 and the option to go subsonic. </div></div>Is there something shorter than 16" available in 6.8 BSP?
300 BLK is commonly sold in a maneuverable 8". </div></div>
Not that I'm aware of. Most of us don't want to lose the supersonic performance side. Subs are a niche but are cool. We get awesome results with a 12.5" 6.8 rig so I expect to see something along those lines for the BSP.
A 8" 300blk is a sweet setup though.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: d00d</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm working my way through the next build and I'm coming out with "neither the Blackout nor the Whisper." I'm not done, but I seem to be heading off in another direction, a 6.8 with a 7 twist barrel (16") stabilizing a 200gn bullet. The idea behind it is the dual nature (subsonic vs supersonic) performance. Whereas it is true that the 220 or 240 has the advantage of mass muzzle energy in the W/BO in subsonic, it actually is a slight advantage compared to the 6.8 200gn.
But to me, as important is full velocity running as well. Where the HUGE improvement comes in with the 6.8 is when one looks at the performance of the 6.8 (7 or 8 twist) at supersonic speeds. The 6.8 has a very real advantage in down range muzzle energy, longer effective range and flatter trajectory. That which makes the 300s impressive in the subsonic mode (smaller case volume) is a limiter on the ss end. That leaner .30s that top off the BO when going supersonic compromises everything. The 6.8 is just a great ss performer.
In my search for a true dual cartridge (SUB/SS) my search is leading to pass on either the Blackout or the whisper.
Don't mean to hyjack. </div></div>
Your findings are correct. While the 300 preforms well as a fun sub gun, the supersonic side just isn't there with the same velocity, power and trajectory as a much cheaper 7.62X39.
The 6.8 is a much better SS choice and as time goes on, the 6.8BSP will move forward also, giving users the most power from a AR15 and the option to go subsonic. </div></div>Is there something shorter than 16" available in 6.8 BSP?
300 BLK is commonly sold in a maneuverable 8". </div></div>
Not that I'm aware of. Most of us don't want to lose the supersonic performance side. Subs are a niche but are cool. We get awesome results with a 12.5" 6.8 rig so I expect to see something along those lines for the BSP.
A 8" 300blk is a sweet setup though.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm working my way through the next build and I'm coming out with "neither the Blackout nor the Whisper." I'm not done, but I seem to be heading off in another direction, a 6.8 with a 7 twist barrel (16") stabilizing a 200gn bullet. The idea behind it is the dual nature (subsonic vs supersonic) performance. Whereas it is true that the 220 or 240 has the advantage of mass muzzle energy in the W/BO in subsonic, it actually is a slight advantage compared to the 6.8 200gn.
But to me, as important is full velocity running as well. Where the HUGE improvement comes in with the 6.8 is when one looks at the performance of the 6.8 (7 or 8 twist) at supersonic speeds. The 6.8 has a very real advantage in down range muzzle energy, longer effective range and flatter trajectory. That which makes the 300s impressive in the subsonic mode (smaller case volume) is a limiter on the ss end. That leaner .30s that top off the BO when going supersonic compromises everything. The 6.8 is just a great ss performer.
In my search for a true dual cartridge (SUB/SS) my search is leading to pass on either the Blackout or the whisper.
Don't mean to hyjack. </div></div>
viable substitute
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm working my way through the next build and I'm coming out with "neither the Blackout nor the Whisper." I'm not done, but I seem to be heading off in another direction, a 6.8 with a 7 twist barrel (16") stabilizing a 200gn bullet. The idea behind it is the dual nature (subsonic vs supersonic) performance. Whereas it is true that the 220 or 240 has the advantage of mass muzzle energy in the W/BO in subsonic, it actually is a slight advantage compared to the 6.8 200gn.
But to me, as important is full velocity running as well. Where the HUGE improvement comes in with the 6.8 is when one looks at the performance of the 6.8 (7 or 8 twist) at supersonic speeds. The 6.8 has a very real advantage in down range muzzle energy, longer effective range and flatter trajectory. That which makes the 300s impressive in the subsonic mode (smaller case volume) is a limiter on the ss end. That leaner .30s that top off the BO when going supersonic compromises everything. The 6.8 is just a great ss performer.
In my search for a true dual cartridge (SUB/SS) my search is leading to pass on either the Blackout or the whisper.
Don't mean to hyjack. </div></div>
viable substitute
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As the hype wears off, I think you will see more follow suit. Savage didn't get where they are at making bad choices... </div></div>
Savage made bad choices twice - using a 20 inch barrel and using 1/10 twist. No one is going to follow suit to make a 20 inch 1/10 twist 300 BLK and expect it to be accurate for subsonic. You would have to live in a cave for the last year to have picked those specs.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As the hype wears off, I think you will see more follow suit. Savage didn't get where they are at making bad choices... </div></div>
Savage made bad choices twice - using a 20 inch barrel and using 1/10 twist. No one is going to follow suit to make a 20 inch 1/10 twist 300 BLK and expect it to be accurate for subsonic. You would have to live in a cave for the last year to have picked those specs.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your findings are correct. While the 300 preforms well as a fun sub gun, the supersonic side just isn't there with the same velocity, power and trajectory as a much cheaper 7.62X39. </div></div>
300 BLK has 16% more energy than 7.62x39mm at 300 meters.
7.62x39mm is a great idea, for an AK. For an AR - not so much.
300 BLK has as much energy from a 16 inch barrel as 5.56mm from a 24 inch barrel.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your findings are correct. While the 300 preforms well as a fun sub gun, the supersonic side just isn't there with the same velocity, power and trajectory as a much cheaper 7.62X39. </div></div>
300 BLK has 16% more energy than 7.62x39mm at 300 meters.
7.62x39mm is a great idea, for an AK. For an AR - not so much.
300 BLK has as much energy from a 16 inch barrel as 5.56mm from a 24 inch barrel.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 6.8 is a much better SS choice and as time goes on, the 6.8BSP will move forward also, giving users the most power from a AR15 and the option to go subsonic. </div></div>
6.8 requires special bolts and magazines, and the ammo costs 50% more than 300 BLK.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2AACO102860-1.html
$10.36 per box.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 6.8 is a much better SS choice and as time goes on, the 6.8BSP will move forward also, giving users the most power from a AR15 and the option to go subsonic. </div></div>
6.8 requires special bolts and magazines, and the ammo costs 50% more than 300 BLK.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2AACO102860-1.html
$10.36 per box.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As the hype wears off, I think you will see more follow suit. Savage didn't get where they are at making bad choices... </div></div>
Savage made bad choices twice - using a 20 inch barrel and using 1/10 twist. No one is going to follow suit to make a 20 inch 1/10 twist 300 BLK and expect it to be accurate for subsonic. You would have to live in a cave for the last year to have picked those specs. </div></div>
I don't know what their intentions were but they didn't get the performance they were looking for. If I were to guess, it never was there to start with. Seeing how they produce a killer bolt gun, they won't be hurting...
Edit: I'm not getting into your horse hockey games here. Save it for your own cult of goons. The 300 is a glorified AK with ammo twice as expensive. Might want to get off the net and make sure the big wigs at freedom group isn't sticking .223 rounds in that crap 300 UMC ammo. Once someone gets hurt, you will need all the help from the burnt bridges you can get.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As the hype wears off, I think you will see more follow suit. Savage didn't get where they are at making bad choices... </div></div>
Savage made bad choices twice - using a 20 inch barrel and using 1/10 twist. No one is going to follow suit to make a 20 inch 1/10 twist 300 BLK and expect it to be accurate for subsonic. You would have to live in a cave for the last year to have picked those specs. </div></div>
I don't know what their intentions were but they didn't get the performance they were looking for. If I were to guess, it never was there to start with. Seeing how they produce a killer bolt gun, they won't be hurting...
Edit: I'm not getting into your horse hockey games here. Save it for your own cult of goons. The 300 is a glorified AK with ammo twice as expensive. Might want to get off the net and make sure the big wigs at freedom group isn't sticking .223 rounds in that crap 300 UMC ammo. Once someone gets hurt, you will need all the help from the burnt bridges you can get.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 6.8 is a much better SS choice and as time goes on, the 6.8BSP will move forward also, giving users the most power from a AR15 and the option to go subsonic. </div></div>
6.8 requires special bolts and magazines, and the ammo costs 50% more than 300 BLK.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2AACO102860-1.html
$10.36 per box. </div></div>
I'm curious about the performance of the subsonic Blackout accuracy wise. I am glad to see the full velocity stuff is doing so well, because that's what I would be using for distance shooting.
I just want to know if it will be near 1 moa in subsonic. I saw the spec sheet on the AAC link you posted and it looks like it was around 1 MOA at 100. What are other people's real world experience with it? Can I expect 1 MOA with good hand loads with a 9" quality barrel? If so, how far out? 200, 300 yards?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rsilvers</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 6.8 is a much better SS choice and as time goes on, the 6.8BSP will move forward also, giving users the most power from a AR15 and the option to go subsonic. </div></div>
6.8 requires special bolts and magazines, and the ammo costs 50% more than 300 BLK.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2AACO102860-1.html
$10.36 per box. </div></div>
I'm curious about the performance of the subsonic Blackout accuracy wise. I am glad to see the full velocity stuff is doing so well, because that's what I would be using for distance shooting.
I just want to know if it will be near 1 moa in subsonic. I saw the spec sheet on the AAC link you posted and it looks like it was around 1 MOA at 100. What are other people's real world experience with it? Can I expect 1 MOA with good hand loads with a 9" quality barrel? If so, how far out? 200, 300 yards?
Re: Blackout or whisper
for my part, moa is not possible with subsonic even with hand loads. I and my Dad have been trying to achieve it for some time now, I have shot 200 rounds so far and my Dad is nearing 1000 in pursuit of it. He has been able to get the occasional near inch group with four of five shots at 100 yards, but not with any consistency. Bit we are still trying. I am getting near the point of giving up moa and settling for 2 moa.
I have seen allot of claims of sub moa, but whenever I do there is data lacking on the load, either no OAL or no picture evidence.
for my part, moa is not possible with subsonic even with hand loads. I and my Dad have been trying to achieve it for some time now, I have shot 200 rounds so far and my Dad is nearing 1000 in pursuit of it. He has been able to get the occasional near inch group with four of five shots at 100 yards, but not with any consistency. Bit we are still trying. I am getting near the point of giving up moa and settling for 2 moa.
I have seen allot of claims of sub moa, but whenever I do there is data lacking on the load, either no OAL or no picture evidence.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Edit: I'm not getting into your horse hockey games here. Save it for your own cult of goons. The 300 is a glorified AK with ammo twice as expensive.</div></div>
It is like an AK updated for 2012 and designed to work in standard AR-15 magazines with full capacity and 0.308 rather than 0.311 bullets.
The ammo is cheaper than 7.62x39mm if you go by USA-made brass cased ammunition. I don't shoot steel cased ammo in my ARs even in 223, so I don't see why I would start doing so with another cartridge.
300 BLK is $10.36 per box at CTD.
30-30 is $13.72 for Winchester brand, and $12.15 for imported.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Edit: I'm not getting into your horse hockey games here. Save it for your own cult of goons. The 300 is a glorified AK with ammo twice as expensive.</div></div>
It is like an AK updated for 2012 and designed to work in standard AR-15 magazines with full capacity and 0.308 rather than 0.311 bullets.
The ammo is cheaper than 7.62x39mm if you go by USA-made brass cased ammunition. I don't shoot steel cased ammo in my ARs even in 223, so I don't see why I would start doing so with another cartridge.
300 BLK is $10.36 per box at CTD.
30-30 is $13.72 for Winchester brand, and $12.15 for imported.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeepocabra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">for my part, moa is not possible with subsonic even with hand loads. I and my Dad have been trying to achieve it for some time now, I have shot 200 rounds so far and my Dad is nearing 1000 in pursuit of it. He has been able to get the occasional near inch group with four of five shots at 100 yards, but not with any consistency. Bit we are still trying. I am getting near the point of giving up moa and settling for 2 moa.
I have seen allot of claims of sub moa, but whenever I do there is data lacking on the load, either no OAL or no picture evidence. </div></div>
Hey man,
Good to see a hider from my home state! So 2 MOA is your average huh? Really, that's not bad for what the round is I guess. That's a 6" spread at 300 yards. I don't have delusions of long range precision with a subsonic load out of a stock 308 either. 1-2 MOA seems to be the norm for those.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeepocabra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">for my part, moa is not possible with subsonic even with hand loads. I and my Dad have been trying to achieve it for some time now, I have shot 200 rounds so far and my Dad is nearing 1000 in pursuit of it. He has been able to get the occasional near inch group with four of five shots at 100 yards, but not with any consistency. Bit we are still trying. I am getting near the point of giving up moa and settling for 2 moa.
I have seen allot of claims of sub moa, but whenever I do there is data lacking on the load, either no OAL or no picture evidence. </div></div>
Hey man,
Good to see a hider from my home state! So 2 MOA is your average huh? Really, that's not bad for what the round is I guess. That's a 6" spread at 300 yards. I don't have delusions of long range precision with a subsonic load out of a stock 308 either. 1-2 MOA seems to be the norm for those.
Re: Blackout or whisper
I can get 2 MOA with a few of my loads. The first shot is very typically a flyer, with the next four being much closer. I think this is from being loaded by hand and not gun chambered. My neck tension is 5 thousands with annealed converted LC brass. Not sure why its different but it very often is.
I can get 2 MOA with a few of my loads. The first shot is very typically a flyer, with the next four being much closer. I think this is from being loaded by hand and not gun chambered. My neck tension is 5 thousands with annealed converted LC brass. Not sure why its different but it very often is.
Re: Blackout or whisper
" http://1050fps.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=27 " From - AKASpook
Saw that, liked what I read but am somewhat disappointed that the question "how is the accuracy?" has been left open for six months in that thread. We need accuracy data points, until they arrive the 7.62 is a false start.
Look, I shoot as much subsonic as the next guy (and the next guy close to me shoots alot of subsonic.) There is quiet for the operator, quiet for Operator and 45 meters, and quiet for 500+ meters out. One, maybe two of those ranges are serviceable by subsonic, the third simply fails with it. Seems to me that the majority of "work" on quiet as of late has been "quiet for the operator" and that raises a good number of questions as to what is driving "quiet" the market. If you need an 8" barrel and it has to work with your lower, and your effective range is 6 meters, and ammo cost is your issue, get a 9mm or .45acp upper and be done with it. If you think all .45acp uppers are blow back, they are not any longer.
The .223 is an ugly round for noise. Ugly when suppressed with the best cans as well. SBR? Forget it, if you think you are getting good supersonic .223 suppression in an SBR, you are already deaf. The whole point is for that round to go fast. The whole point of the M16/AR15 was to house that round. In short, .223 and subsonic are two words that do not go together well. Subsonic in that host is to no small part mental masterbation past pistol caliber rounds and ranges.
So, if the issue is "what can I place on top of a lower that gives me great suppression?" You have to address use right up front as that defines the accuracy requirement at range. It makes no sense to live with 2moa accuracy with a can on for anybody that needs .5moa. Its just plain a looser. To go through this song and dance and expense it only makes sense to talk about subsonic on the M16/AR15 somewhere longer than a pistol caliber range and supersonic a long way out. The pure fascination of quiet for the operator does not in any way require a Whisper, a Black Out or any other wildcat. Quiet for the Operator and 45 meters, maybe...supersonic accuracy at ranges over 500 meters in that same round's case is important to me. So far, to wring all the accuracy out of subsonic possible at the extremes of its range? bolt gun. I'm still working on it.
" http://1050fps.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=27 " From - AKASpook
Saw that, liked what I read but am somewhat disappointed that the question "how is the accuracy?" has been left open for six months in that thread. We need accuracy data points, until they arrive the 7.62 is a false start.
Look, I shoot as much subsonic as the next guy (and the next guy close to me shoots alot of subsonic.) There is quiet for the operator, quiet for Operator and 45 meters, and quiet for 500+ meters out. One, maybe two of those ranges are serviceable by subsonic, the third simply fails with it. Seems to me that the majority of "work" on quiet as of late has been "quiet for the operator" and that raises a good number of questions as to what is driving "quiet" the market. If you need an 8" barrel and it has to work with your lower, and your effective range is 6 meters, and ammo cost is your issue, get a 9mm or .45acp upper and be done with it. If you think all .45acp uppers are blow back, they are not any longer.
The .223 is an ugly round for noise. Ugly when suppressed with the best cans as well. SBR? Forget it, if you think you are getting good supersonic .223 suppression in an SBR, you are already deaf. The whole point is for that round to go fast. The whole point of the M16/AR15 was to house that round. In short, .223 and subsonic are two words that do not go together well. Subsonic in that host is to no small part mental masterbation past pistol caliber rounds and ranges.
So, if the issue is "what can I place on top of a lower that gives me great suppression?" You have to address use right up front as that defines the accuracy requirement at range. It makes no sense to live with 2moa accuracy with a can on for anybody that needs .5moa. Its just plain a looser. To go through this song and dance and expense it only makes sense to talk about subsonic on the M16/AR15 somewhere longer than a pistol caliber range and supersonic a long way out. The pure fascination of quiet for the operator does not in any way require a Whisper, a Black Out or any other wildcat. Quiet for the Operator and 45 meters, maybe...supersonic accuracy at ranges over 500 meters in that same round's case is important to me. So far, to wring all the accuracy out of subsonic possible at the extremes of its range? bolt gun. I'm still working on it.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeepocabra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can get 2 MOA with a few of my loads. The first shot is very typically a flyer, with the next four being much closer. I think this is from being loaded by hand and not gun chambered. My neck tension is 5 thousands with annealed converted LC brass. Not sure why its different but it very often is. </div></div>
Would putting a slight crimp on it help with that first round?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeepocabra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can get 2 MOA with a few of my loads. The first shot is very typically a flyer, with the next four being much closer. I think this is from being loaded by hand and not gun chambered. My neck tension is 5 thousands with annealed converted LC brass. Not sure why its different but it very often is. </div></div>
Would putting a slight crimp on it help with that first round?
Re: Blackout or whisper
Rolling Thunder, I think I see what you mean, but who honestly is using or needs a 500+ meter subsonic round? I have been down range of bullets(doing testing, not combat)and even at 200 yards supersonic UN-suppressed the muzzle blast is not that loud with a 308. So if your object is to keep your position hidden and take out a target quickly without his mates (be that hogs in texas or bad dudes downrange) knowing from 500 meters +, why not just use a 308 or 338 or whatever you want suppressed in supersonic? From 500 meters that would be very covert.
If it needs to be REALLY quiet then I would assume the targets are close to each other and the shooter is close to them. That's when the use of a Blackout or an MP-5SD would be useful. So is the Blackout @ subsonic accuracy of 2 MOA sufficient? With 2 MOA a headshot would be possible every time from 150 yards and in. Center punching someone would be even easier and possible at 300 yards. I probably won't NEED that ability but would love to do a hog hunt suppressed with night vision, just to see how many I could knock down before they noticed. Others want to be able to kill coyotes the same way. What you give up in accuracy with Subs in Blackout compared to 308 subs, you more than make up with it in reliable semi-auto or auto functioning with subs and the ability to go "loud" and hit at 300 yards + with full velocity ammo in a different mag.
Rolling Thunder, I think I see what you mean, but who honestly is using or needs a 500+ meter subsonic round? I have been down range of bullets(doing testing, not combat)and even at 200 yards supersonic UN-suppressed the muzzle blast is not that loud with a 308. So if your object is to keep your position hidden and take out a target quickly without his mates (be that hogs in texas or bad dudes downrange) knowing from 500 meters +, why not just use a 308 or 338 or whatever you want suppressed in supersonic? From 500 meters that would be very covert.
If it needs to be REALLY quiet then I would assume the targets are close to each other and the shooter is close to them. That's when the use of a Blackout or an MP-5SD would be useful. So is the Blackout @ subsonic accuracy of 2 MOA sufficient? With 2 MOA a headshot would be possible every time from 150 yards and in. Center punching someone would be even easier and possible at 300 yards. I probably won't NEED that ability but would love to do a hog hunt suppressed with night vision, just to see how many I could knock down before they noticed. Others want to be able to kill coyotes the same way. What you give up in accuracy with Subs in Blackout compared to 308 subs, you more than make up with it in reliable semi-auto or auto functioning with subs and the ability to go "loud" and hit at 300 yards + with full velocity ammo in a different mag.
Re: Blackout or whisper
No, no, we are in complete agreement. It's when we empty the case and reload for supersonic that my observation(s) come into play.
In other words..
"How accurate is it within 200 meters?"
"What are we left with when we want to use the same platform past 200 meters in full velocity?"
No, no, we are in complete agreement. It's when we empty the case and reload for supersonic that my observation(s) come into play.
In other words..
"How accurate is it within 200 meters?"
"What are we left with when we want to use the same platform past 200 meters in full velocity?"
Re: Blackout or whisper
Ok, gotcha. From my research Blackout is effectively a 450 yard gun even with a 16" barrel and full velocity ammo. Really though, for a lot of infantryman that's the effective range of their M4's too. Most hunters as well. Only us on the "dark-side" see 450 as close range.
Ok, gotcha. From my research Blackout is effectively a 450 yard gun even with a 16" barrel and full velocity ammo. Really though, for a lot of infantryman that's the effective range of their M4's too. Most hunters as well. Only us on the "dark-side" see 450 as close range.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbuck88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went blackout because it is cheaper and I can shoot whisper ammo in the BLK chamber but not visa versa. </div></div>
Where did you get that information? AAC specifically says not to do that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbuck88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went blackout because it is cheaper and I can shoot whisper ammo in the BLK chamber but not visa versa. </div></div>
Where did you get that information? AAC specifically says not to do that.
Re: Blackout or whisper
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bedlam</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbuck88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went blackout because it is cheaper and I can shoot whisper ammo in the BLK chamber but not visa versa. </div></div>
Where did you get that information? AAC specifically says not to do that.
</div></div>
AAC does not exactly say not to do that. AAC says that Hornady 300 Whisper(R) ammo is ok to shoot in a 300 AAC Blackout, but otherwise, random 300 Whisper there is no guarantee it is in spec.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bedlam</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jbuck88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I went blackout because it is cheaper and I can shoot whisper ammo in the BLK chamber but not visa versa. </div></div>
Where did you get that information? AAC specifically says not to do that.
</div></div>
AAC does not exactly say not to do that. AAC says that Hornady 300 Whisper(R) ammo is ok to shoot in a 300 AAC Blackout, but otherwise, random 300 Whisper there is no guarantee it is in spec.
