Here we go.....this topic will benefit a lot of the people new to reloading. Definitely will save them some $$$$. Some rifles like BT bullets, some rifles hate BT bullets, most of the time rifles will perform well with FB bullets. For the newbies, DO NOT assume you factory rifle will shoot BT bullets like your buddy's match rifle. Generally, it's not going to happen. Now that being said, I have seen most .30 cal and larger do well with BT bullets. Just my observation. Everyone...soundoff!
- Thread starter boltgunluvr
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Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
FB bullets can often times be more accurate than BT bullets out to 200-300 yards, as a rule, but aerodynamically speaking, once past those shorter distances, the BTs and their generally better BCs, will pull ahead.
Of course, what bullet a particular barrel likes is a different issue entirely and that's why reloading is very rewarding for me.
Chris
FB bullets can often times be more accurate than BT bullets out to 200-300 yards, as a rule, but aerodynamically speaking, once past those shorter distances, the BTs and their generally better BCs, will pull ahead.
Of course, what bullet a particular barrel likes is a different issue entirely and that's why reloading is very rewarding for me.
Chris
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
Keep the comments coming! A lot of new reloaders will benefit.
Keep the comments coming! A lot of new reloaders will benefit.
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
twist rate in the barrel would be the first thing to look at.
length / weight of the bullet would be the second
velocity would be the third.
twist rate in the barrel would be the first thing to look at.
length / weight of the bullet would be the second
velocity would be the third.
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
Very true. Length/bearing surface of a bullet can play hell on performance.
Very true. Length/bearing surface of a bullet can play hell on performance.
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MALLARD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its easier to get a better ES/SD with FB bullets then with BT's.</div></div>
And yet ES/SD matters less for flat base bullets. ES/SD is for long range. Flat based bullets are not.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MALLARD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its easier to get a better ES/SD with FB bullets then with BT's.</div></div>
And yet ES/SD matters less for flat base bullets. ES/SD is for long range. Flat based bullets are not.
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
I have a life long preference for flat base bullets. Especially in a hunting application, you never know if a BT is going to squirt the lead and separate from the jacket. I have a real life example. I normally use the 165Hornady FB but couldn't get them in time for a mule deer trip to Utah. I had a buck climbing the hill in front of me and took a clear shot right between the shoulder blades but, his rear end bounced up right at impact and he was hit about as high up in the right ham as is possible. I tracked him a mile and a half, (fresh snow) and found him dead under an overhanging cedar. I sent that bullet jacket to Hornady and in the response, Steve said, well, it worked, the deer died, right? Not in my world, but it is always possible to make a bad hit, so it was my fault. And, that's what I always consider, shooting at game, long range. They can move while the bullet is in flight. Whatever.
I don't play the long range stuff so maybe I would choose a boat tail, if I did. No doubt, they have better ballistic coefficient. I have seen examples of same bullet, (one flat, the other BT) used in my guns, where the flat base bullet seems quite a bit more accurate. I believe most bench rest competitors use flat base bullets and that's good enough for me.
BB
I have a life long preference for flat base bullets. Especially in a hunting application, you never know if a BT is going to squirt the lead and separate from the jacket. I have a real life example. I normally use the 165Hornady FB but couldn't get them in time for a mule deer trip to Utah. I had a buck climbing the hill in front of me and took a clear shot right between the shoulder blades but, his rear end bounced up right at impact and he was hit about as high up in the right ham as is possible. I tracked him a mile and a half, (fresh snow) and found him dead under an overhanging cedar. I sent that bullet jacket to Hornady and in the response, Steve said, well, it worked, the deer died, right? Not in my world, but it is always possible to make a bad hit, so it was my fault. And, that's what I always consider, shooting at game, long range. They can move while the bullet is in flight. Whatever.
I don't play the long range stuff so maybe I would choose a boat tail, if I did. No doubt, they have better ballistic coefficient. I have seen examples of same bullet, (one flat, the other BT) used in my guns, where the flat base bullet seems quite a bit more accurate. I believe most bench rest competitors use flat base bullets and that's good enough for me.
BB
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
If/when FB bullets shoot well, but BT bullets do not, I suggest looking very carefully at your crown on the muzzle end of the gun.
When a FB bullet leaves the muzzle, it uncorkes the pressure in a single event.
When a BT bullet leaves the muzzle, it uncorkes the pressure in a series of drawn out events. If anything near the crown is out of kilter, the sonic blast wave can reflect off of the irregularity and interact with the back end of the bullet before it gets out of range of the blast wave effects.
If/when FB bullets shoot well, but BT bullets do not, I suggest looking very carefully at your crown on the muzzle end of the gun.
When a FB bullet leaves the muzzle, it uncorkes the pressure in a single event.
When a BT bullet leaves the muzzle, it uncorkes the pressure in a series of drawn out events. If anything near the crown is out of kilter, the sonic blast wave can reflect off of the irregularity and interact with the back end of the bullet before it gets out of range of the blast wave effects.
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a life long preference for flat base bullets. Especially in a hunting application, you never know if a BT is going to squirt the lead and separate from the jacket. I have a real life example. I normally use the 165Hornady FB but couldn't get them in time for a mule deer trip to Utah. I had a buck climbing the hill in front of me and took a clear shot right between the shoulder blades but, his rear end bounced up right at impact and he was hit about as high up in the right ham as is possible. I tracked him a mile and a half, (fresh snow) and found him dead under an overhanging cedar. I sent that bullet jacket to Hornady and in the response, Steve said, well, it worked, the deer died, right? Not in my world, but it is always possible to make a bad hit, so it was my fault. And, that's what I always consider, shooting at game, long range. They can move while the bullet is in flight. Whatever.
I don't play the long range stuff so maybe I would choose a boat tail, if I did. No doubt, they have better ballistic coefficient. I have seen examples of same bullet, (one flat, the other BT) used in my guns, where the flat base bullet seems quite a bit more accurate. I believe most bench rest competitors use flat base bullets and that's good enough for me.
BB </div></div>
Right on. Some guns, for various reasons, won't shoot BTs. Period. I can not understand why some people know their gun won't shoot BTs, yet turn around and state "but I need to load these BTs because I'm shooting longe distance." .....WHAT? Are you really that big of an idiot? It's very simple, if it isn't accurate at 100, 200, 300 yds....it isn't going to be accurate at 700, 800, 900, etc.
Now, with that said, I've seen more BT issues with smaller caliber stuff. What about anyone else??? I've got 223 Rem & 243 Win & 308 Win, all Rem 700 SPS V. The 223 & 243 hates BTs. Load flat base and BINGO. The 308 is....well....308. Load any type of bullet and it will shoot well.
For most of us, BTs are over-rated and FBs are under-rated.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a life long preference for flat base bullets. Especially in a hunting application, you never know if a BT is going to squirt the lead and separate from the jacket. I have a real life example. I normally use the 165Hornady FB but couldn't get them in time for a mule deer trip to Utah. I had a buck climbing the hill in front of me and took a clear shot right between the shoulder blades but, his rear end bounced up right at impact and he was hit about as high up in the right ham as is possible. I tracked him a mile and a half, (fresh snow) and found him dead under an overhanging cedar. I sent that bullet jacket to Hornady and in the response, Steve said, well, it worked, the deer died, right? Not in my world, but it is always possible to make a bad hit, so it was my fault. And, that's what I always consider, shooting at game, long range. They can move while the bullet is in flight. Whatever.
I don't play the long range stuff so maybe I would choose a boat tail, if I did. No doubt, they have better ballistic coefficient. I have seen examples of same bullet, (one flat, the other BT) used in my guns, where the flat base bullet seems quite a bit more accurate. I believe most bench rest competitors use flat base bullets and that's good enough for me.
BB </div></div>
Right on. Some guns, for various reasons, won't shoot BTs. Period. I can not understand why some people know their gun won't shoot BTs, yet turn around and state "but I need to load these BTs because I'm shooting longe distance." .....WHAT? Are you really that big of an idiot? It's very simple, if it isn't accurate at 100, 200, 300 yds....it isn't going to be accurate at 700, 800, 900, etc.
Now, with that said, I've seen more BT issues with smaller caliber stuff. What about anyone else??? I've got 223 Rem & 243 Win & 308 Win, all Rem 700 SPS V. The 223 & 243 hates BTs. Load flat base and BINGO. The 308 is....well....308. Load any type of bullet and it will shoot well.
For most of us, BTs are over-rated and FBs are under-rated.
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If/when FB bullets shoot well, but BT bullets do not, I suggest looking very carefully at your crown on the muzzle end of the gun.</div></div>
Not likely, in my case. I always specify an 11 degree benchrest crown. Makes it pretty hard to ding up.
But, what you are saying is the only reason why boat tail bullets may not be accurate in any given rifle is because of a damaged crown? But, flat base bullets are unaffected by this damage? Less affected? What?
BB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If/when FB bullets shoot well, but BT bullets do not, I suggest looking very carefully at your crown on the muzzle end of the gun.</div></div>
Not likely, in my case. I always specify an 11 degree benchrest crown. Makes it pretty hard to ding up.
But, what you are saying is the only reason why boat tail bullets may not be accurate in any given rifle is because of a damaged crown? But, flat base bullets are unaffected by this damage? Less affected? What?
BB
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
Buzzboss, I believe they're less affected. The Bearing surface leaves the crown and that's it, the bullet is gone.
With boat tails, the bearing surface leaves the crown, and there is still bullet passing out the bore. Much more sensitive to uneven pressures from an off-center or damaged crown. Even if you have a mirror finish 11 degree crown, it may not be cut perpendicular with the bore.
I also remember reading about lee-enfields and boat-tail/FB bullets. Apparently some of the rifles were barreled with 2-groove tubes vs. the 'standard' 5-groove. Those with 2 grooves generally HATE boat-tails.
Buzzboss, I believe they're less affected. The Bearing surface leaves the crown and that's it, the bullet is gone.
With boat tails, the bearing surface leaves the crown, and there is still bullet passing out the bore. Much more sensitive to uneven pressures from an off-center or damaged crown. Even if you have a mirror finish 11 degree crown, it may not be cut perpendicular with the bore.
I also remember reading about lee-enfields and boat-tail/FB bullets. Apparently some of the rifles were barreled with 2-groove tubes vs. the 'standard' 5-groove. Those with 2 grooves generally HATE boat-tails.
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
I have to agree with Ledzep that the moment of bullet exit would seem to be the most likely factor in accuracy, BT to FB.
I guess (with nothing better to do while drinking my coffee this AM) I would add a couple things.
A lot of the comments on this site appear to be based on experiences/opinions and much less on any sort of extensive testing under any control. Not a knock, just an observation. Who has the time or resources to do real reasearch with control?
That said, I would agree that the crown would have to be the primary suspect as it has great effect on bullet exit. A quality target crown is likely to be square to the bore within fractions of a second of angle. I would submit that the odds on the tapered section of the boatail itself would be a candidate to consider.
One issue is pure quality control on the bullet. It is not at all unusual to have minor deviations to projectiles and to have them on a tapered base could cause hot gasses to affect the exit pretty noticeably.
i would also consider that the rifling engraving dramatically re-shapes the rear taper of a bullet and any misalignment on engraving at the throat would create significant irregularities on the rear taper, resulting in potentially significant deviations in the way the gasses flow around the tail on exit.
This seems a reasonable explanation on the issue but I would ask one question of the guys here, how many of you have rifles the shoot BT's well but FB's poorly? I suspect it may be near zero but I am curious now that the issue has been raised.
I have to agree with Ledzep that the moment of bullet exit would seem to be the most likely factor in accuracy, BT to FB.
I guess (with nothing better to do while drinking my coffee this AM) I would add a couple things.
A lot of the comments on this site appear to be based on experiences/opinions and much less on any sort of extensive testing under any control. Not a knock, just an observation. Who has the time or resources to do real reasearch with control?
That said, I would agree that the crown would have to be the primary suspect as it has great effect on bullet exit. A quality target crown is likely to be square to the bore within fractions of a second of angle. I would submit that the odds on the tapered section of the boatail itself would be a candidate to consider.
One issue is pure quality control on the bullet. It is not at all unusual to have minor deviations to projectiles and to have them on a tapered base could cause hot gasses to affect the exit pretty noticeably.
i would also consider that the rifling engraving dramatically re-shapes the rear taper of a bullet and any misalignment on engraving at the throat would create significant irregularities on the rear taper, resulting in potentially significant deviations in the way the gasses flow around the tail on exit.
This seems a reasonable explanation on the issue but I would ask one question of the guys here, how many of you have rifles the shoot BT's well but FB's poorly? I suspect it may be near zero but I am curious now that the issue has been raised.
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
BT vs FB is a tradeoff between short range accuracy and cumulative drag.
FB bullets usually stabilize sooner o/o the muzzle, giving them some potential for better short range accuracy; but they also have have drag characteristics that favor BT bullets for longer distances.
Greg
BT vs FB is a tradeoff between short range accuracy and cumulative drag.
FB bullets usually stabilize sooner o/o the muzzle, giving them some potential for better short range accuracy; but they also have have drag characteristics that favor BT bullets for longer distances.
Greg
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
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Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a life long preference for flat base bullets. Especially in a hunting application, you never know if a BT is going to squirt the lead and separate from the jacket. I have a real life example. I normally use the 165Hornady FB but couldn't get them in time for a mule deer trip to Utah. I had a buck climbing the hill in front of me and took a clear shot right between the shoulder blades but, his rear end bounced up right at impact and he was hit about as high up in the right ham as is possible. I tracked him a mile and a half, (fresh snow) and found him dead under an overhanging cedar. I sent that bullet jacket to Hornady and in the response, Steve said, well, it worked, the deer died, right? Not in my world, but it is always possible to make a bad hit, so it was my fault. And, that's what I always consider, shooting at game, long range. They can move while the bullet is in flight. Whatever.
I don't play the long range stuff so maybe I would choose a boat tail, if I did. No doubt, they have better ballistic coefficient. I have seen examples of same bullet, (one flat, the other BT) used in my guns, where the flat base bullet seems quite a bit more accurate. I believe most bench rest competitors use flat base bullets and that's good enough for me.
BB </div></div>
So correct me if I'm wrong, but the essence of your complaint is that you ass shot a deer and had to track it over a mile? Uh this is abnormal how?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a life long preference for flat base bullets. Especially in a hunting application, you never know if a BT is going to squirt the lead and separate from the jacket. I have a real life example. I normally use the 165Hornady FB but couldn't get them in time for a mule deer trip to Utah. I had a buck climbing the hill in front of me and took a clear shot right between the shoulder blades but, his rear end bounced up right at impact and he was hit about as high up in the right ham as is possible. I tracked him a mile and a half, (fresh snow) and found him dead under an overhanging cedar. I sent that bullet jacket to Hornady and in the response, Steve said, well, it worked, the deer died, right? Not in my world, but it is always possible to make a bad hit, so it was my fault. And, that's what I always consider, shooting at game, long range. They can move while the bullet is in flight. Whatever.
I don't play the long range stuff so maybe I would choose a boat tail, if I did. No doubt, they have better ballistic coefficient. I have seen examples of same bullet, (one flat, the other BT) used in my guns, where the flat base bullet seems quite a bit more accurate. I believe most bench rest competitors use flat base bullets and that's good enough for me.
BB </div></div>
So correct me if I'm wrong, but the essence of your complaint is that you ass shot a deer and had to track it over a mile? Uh this is abnormal how?
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
Uh no. My "complaint" is jerk offs with low comprehension skills. BB
Uh no. My "complaint" is jerk offs with low comprehension skills. BB
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
Oh come on, can't we all just get along! Get back to the TOPIC.
Oh come on, can't we all just get along! Get back to the TOPIC.
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Uh no. My "complaint" is jerk offs with low comprehension skills. BB </div></div>
Watch it now- name calling in the web only makes you look like a douche bag and does nothing for your arguement
I'm pretty sure I heard you perfectly clear- you ass shot a deer, sent the seperated jacket in and bitched about their response. Animals do move after the shot has been taken, that's no ones fault. But I'm sure had the bullet not hit the animal in the rear it would have performed just fine, jacket seperating or not
Sounds like bitching about nothing to me.
Or is that NOT the jist?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Uh no. My "complaint" is jerk offs with low comprehension skills. BB </div></div>
Watch it now- name calling in the web only makes you look like a douche bag and does nothing for your arguement
I'm pretty sure I heard you perfectly clear- you ass shot a deer, sent the seperated jacket in and bitched about their response. Animals do move after the shot has been taken, that's no ones fault. But I'm sure had the bullet not hit the animal in the rear it would have performed just fine, jacket seperating or not
Sounds like bitching about nothing to me.
Or is that NOT the jist?
Re: Boattail bullets vs Flat Base bullets
I have mixed feelings on that.
On one hand apparently the jacket separated from the core, which I admit is bad.
On the other the bullet was so good you can kill big game with inadvertant ass shots using it, which seems pretty good.
I don't know what to think on that one.
I have mixed feelings on that.
On one hand apparently the jacket separated from the core, which I admit is bad.
On the other the bullet was so good you can kill big game with inadvertant ass shots using it, which seems pretty good.
I don't know what to think on that one.
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