Body Armor killers before armor was around

Gunfighter14e2

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Read that in WWI poor mans AP was to take a ball round out of a case and reseat it backwards, fire for effect.
That is correct. The thing most miss is energy transfer time. You can take a pointed lead/copper bullet an shoot it nose on at AR plate an it will just turn to dust. Send that same bullet base first an everything changes rapidly. Transfer time, is extremely less base first. This is one of the reasons many carry solid flat nose bullets in pistols. The average pistol will not go threw a level 3 plate, but two rapid hits on that plate will allow his lag time to extend on out for a proper follow up that will stop the fight.
Speed, transfer time, bullet material, an mass. The right combo will do the deed.
 

W54/XM-388

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That is correct. The thing most miss is energy transfer time. You can take a pointed lead/copper bullet an shoot it nose on at AR plate an it will just turn to dust. Send that same bullet base first an everything changes rapidly. Transfer time, is extremely less base first. This is one of the reasons many carry solid flat nose bullets in pistols. The average pistol will not go threw a level 3 plate, but two rapid hits on that plate will allow his lag time to extend on out for a proper follow up that will stop the fight.
Speed, transfer time, bullet material, an mass. The right combo will do the deed.
One thing is that there has been a huge emphasis put on bullet speed, long range stability, ballistics and such which are excellent for a lot of long range target shooting.

But what many no longer realize is how effective, heavy, slow, flat is at actually killing stuff close up and doing the whole DRT as in drop on the spot type stuff.

When shooting reactive steel targets, there can be a big different between how they respond with a fast light 9mm bullet or if you are shooting something in .45 just under the sound barrier, with a big flat front and made out of lead.

A 45-70 shooting the slower heavy bullets can be pretty damaging to targets that are designed for light 308 rounds.
 

GrayRyder

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I don't know if it's related or not but there's been a years long off and on argument over at marlinowners.com as to why slower bullets can penetrate further than higher speed bullets. The ability of the medium through which the bullet is passing to separate before the bullet has something to do with it I think. The faster the bullet, the less able the medium is to separate or tear apart. Inversely, the slower the bullet, the more the medium is able to be torn apart and therefore more penetration.

Or am I covidcrazy?
 
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RyanScott

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Typically for hunting purposes if a slower bullet seems to outpenetrate a larger one the difference is that the faster bullet is riveting or expanding. Also, just like in air the faster you push something the faster it slows.
 

Darayavaus

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I don't know if it's related or not but there's been a years long off and on argument over at marlinowners.com as to why slower bullets can penetrate further than higher speed bullets. The ability of the medium through which the bullet is passing to separate before the bullet has something to do with it I think. The faster the bullet, the less able the medium is to separate or tear apart. Inversely, the slower the bullet, the more the medium is able to be torn apart and therefore more penetration.

Or am I covidcrazy?
PO Ackley did tests in the 1950's with the 220 swift with typical light bullets at hypervelocity vs the 30-06 with black tip AP.

the military AP rounds left a dimple in the steel plate of a halftrack. the 220 zipped right through
 
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pmclaine

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PO Ackley did tests in the 1950's with the 220 swift with typical light bullets at hypervelocity vs the 30-06 with black tip AP.

the military AP rounds left a dimple in the steel plate of a halftrack. the 220 zipped right through

I kind of feel "show me" on that data.

30-06 AP is pretty dramatic stuff and a White Half Track is not exactly a sewer cover.

Speed will defeat barriers but those 30-06 penetrators are hole punchers.

Sorry for questioning that.
 

Gunfighter14e2

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A 06 black tip will not keep up with many of todays high speed rds. Now if you load the black tip to the same speed that is totally different. However mass transfer time, does trump the black tip, do to it's shape hitting nose on. Turn it around (load backwards) an it's a different story, but it's 300yd ability is limited to about 100yds, but it punches much better. BTDT
 

pmclaine

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A 06 black tip will not keep up with many of todays high speed rds. Now if you load the black tip to the same speed that is totally different. However mass transfer time, does trump the black tip, do to it's shape hitting nose on. Turn it around (load backwards) an it's a different story, but it's 300yd ability is limited to about 100yds, but it punches much better. BTDT

Id imagine 06 AP at those speeds would shed the copper.

Those little high speed dragsters may penetrate the steel but Im wondering if its a case of shaped charge, plasma boring.

The round in its pre impact form doesnt make it through the barrier but due to impact and heat you "lazer" a hole through the steel and plasma consisting of the remains of the bullet and the material of the barrier is projected on the other side.

06 penetrators on the other hand are nearly indestructible they would go through shit and look perfect on the other side.

Speed certainly has advantages that can enhance the power of mass.
 

Gunfighter14e2

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If your looking for some fun, get a few 224/30 cal sabots from E. Arthur Brown. Then load the SS109 projos in a 300 wm (or 308 works but not as good as a 300), per the data Brown suggests. However if you really want to see what they will do, think out of the box an you can get them 2-300 FPS faster. Now if your the real tinkering type, locate some .227 oil quenched drill rod. Grind the nose to the shape you want, then the length/weight your want an set back an wait for something, they say small arms will not penetrate to come into view. Many a mouth has been caught gathering fly's,.. looking at/seeing the latter's effects.
 

natdscott

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But what many no longer realize is how effective, heavy, slow, flat is at actually killing stuff close up and doing the whole DRT as in drop on the spot type stuff.
Hehehe.. sure thing.

Not enough people have shot something up close with a 10- or 12-gauge plain lead slug.


-Nate
 

Badfinger

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Unfortunately, that 50-100 recoils is destroying the rear tang sight it looks like it the hammer spur has almost cut the threads in half. :eek:
 

Darayavaus

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and to go one further, Frank Glaser the famous "Alaska Wolf Man" once killed a charging grizzly bear with a 220 swift. I personally know someone who used to hunt cape buffalo in S Africa with a swift.
 
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Darayavaus

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Well Im certain your not a liberal.........you backed up your statement with proof.

Thank you.
ok, but now I expect to never be questioned on anything, ever again. ?

Level IV should stop the AP. Anything less will not.
 

pmclaine

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and to go one further, Frank Glaser the famous "Alaska Wolf Man" once killed a charging grizzly bear with a 220 swift. I personally know someone who used to hunt cape buffalo in S Africa with a swift.

I had a 22-250 R700 for all of about 40 rounds before I had it torn apart and used the receiver to make a .224 M40.

In both forms they were shooting 55 grain .224s but I felt that the 22-250 velocity certainly was capable of shit the .224 was not.
 

natdscott

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ok, but now I expect to never be questioned on anything, ever again. ?

Level IV should stop the AP. Anything less will not.
Well, though the thing is, Mr. Ackley's writings do, in this case, introduce some speculation as to what--exactly--he fired at that plate.

The .30-06 loads did not have an "A.P" offering until 1917.

The 1906 loads were lead-core ball ammo.

So, if that was indeed M1906 ball, that's damned misleading with regards to .30 M2 AP "black tip" vs the Swift.
 
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RyanScott

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Well, though the thing is, Mr. Ackley's writings do, in this case, introduce some speculation as to what--exactly--he fired at that plate.

The .30-06 loads did not have an "A.P" offering until 1917.

The 1906 loads were lead-core ball ammo.

So, if that was indeed M1906 ball, that's damned misleading with regards to .30 M2 AP "black tip" vs the Swift.
30 GOV’T 1906 is the caliber not the date of manufacture.
 

natdscott

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30 GOV’T 1906 is the caliber not the date of manufacture.
Indeed, as regards the cartridge designation.

Yet, it is still ALSO an initial date of manufacture of a specific type of ammunition, the M1906 Ball, that was not entirely reconstituted until well after WW1.

Parker left that bit out. Probably inconsequential, but his caption did still leave room to question it.
 

RyanScott

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I think the fact that he called it GI AP says what needs to be said. 30 GOVT 06 is a designation that would be much more common for the caliber in those days than now.
 
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Darayavaus

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Many of Ackley's tests were done under the auspices of the US army. I doubt the army would provide fake ammo if they were trying to determine the capabilities of something that they wanted to be effective.

I guess if people are bored enough we'll sit around trying to question everything down to and including punctuation. Nat, why don't you just buy the book and read about it. His books are a pretty great read.
 
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natdscott

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Nat, why don't you just buy the book and read about it. His books are a pretty great read.
You might consider not running on the assumption that I lack a literal library of these sorts of volumes. Sure do...it's a hobby of mine. Not that I owe you a thing, much less an explanation. ;)

Reading what an author wrote doesn't mean I accept at face value everything they said, though incidentally, Mr. Ackley is one of the better ones.
 

rth1800

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I have shot a lot of holes in steel for the purpose of creating the holes. Long story. It was not about the guns or shooting, it was to make holes. This was 40 years ago.

The Swift was very good compared to 300 Win. Mag etc.

I would say they are not shooting through. They are cavitating and most of the bullet and displaced metal comes back toward you.
 
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Blue Sky Country

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Anyway you look at it that's going to break something inside.

Yep, most definitely... Mass and weight have quantity of their own when they are applied to a projectile. Compare a ping pong ball being fastballed at you versus a 5-lb hand weight. Big, heavy bullets may not necessarily penetrate the target but they WILL dump almost 90% of their kinetic energy on contact and create a massive explosion-like effect that will inflict blunt force trauma on a huge scale. A .45-70 is not an armor penetrator, but get hit over the heart with it, even with full armor, and you will not be getting up again. Youtube gun writer Mag30th did a video way back in which they shot a .58 caliber Minie ball with a full powered charge of propellant from a Civil War rifled musket, and a .30-06 jacketed ball round into 55 gallon steel drums filled with water. The FMJ loads from a Garand zipped through the drums but there had not been much kinetic energy dump, as measured by the splash of water from the top of the drums. The Minie ball on the other hand? Did not exit the back side of the drum, but the impacts looked like grenades detonating inside the barrels. The water literally geysered out in a cloud and the drum itself jumped a half foot. That .58 caliber rifled musket round was never a joke and is still nothing to be fooled around with. Heard about a couple of guys who had used the .58 caliber "Zouave" pattern two-band muskets to successfully take all of the Big-5 game categories in Africa.
 
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Jscb1b

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There was a movie(a long assed time ago) that was shown it hunters ed that showed a bucket of sand shot with a 30-30 and an arrow. The 30-30 would not penetrate but the arrow would. I shot an elk broad side with a 30-06 and 180gn rem corlock. The bullet was on the skin of the far side. I shot another elk with my bow. 60# 31 inch draw 125gn steel force broad head. Total arrow weight was 505gn. It was a total pass through and stuck 2" into a pine tree. Both elk were with in 30 feet.
 

Blue Sky Country

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There was a movie(a long assed time ago) that was shown it hunters ed that showed a bucket of sand shot with a 30-30 and an arrow. The 30-30 would not penetrate but the arrow would. I shot an elk broad side with a 30-06 and 180gn rem corlock. The bullet was on the skin of the far side. I shot another elk with my bow. 60# 31 inch draw 125gn steel force broad head. Total arrow weight was 505gn. It was a total pass through and stuck 2" into a pine tree. Both elk were with in 30 feet.

The US Army did some experimenting with that too. Right on the eve of full blown ground combat in Vietnam. (There were already US boots on the ground as early as 1958, but mass deployment didn't begin until later) I believe the MA-3 glue-on type 3-bladed broadhead had been standard US Special Forces issue well into the late 1990's... Don't know if they are still being issued today as suppressed rifle technology have improved by light years...

This was part of a 1961 Special Forces exercise. Same type of bows would be used by MACVSOG in Vietnam. Sentry removal as well as setting fire to shit from the safety of a patrol boat in a river.

 

Jscb1b

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I'm not trying to hijack this thread but bow hunting is a blast. I don't mean sitting your ass in a tree stand all day. I mean spot and stalk. You get so close you can smell them. Pure adrenaline! Carry on with your previous thread. Thank you!
 
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Blue Sky Country

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I'm not trying to hijack this thread but bow hunting is a blast. I don't mean sitting your ass in a tree stand all day. I mean spot and stalk. You get so close you can smell them. Pure adrenaline! Carry on with your previous thread. Thank you!

Not exactly off the rails as per the OP's thread title though. Bows have had a long history of being used to penetrate all types of personal armor, and they still have some modern anti-armor uses, though limited. You need a sharp "needle bodkin" type head and at least 40# of pull and you will get good results against soft body armor. "Stopping" power is almost nonexistent on the other hand. You basically have a big ass flechette launcher...
 
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I need to play with my 458 win mag loads. It didn't pop the plate I was shooting at, but it was at least twice the thickness of the armor plate he was using ;)
 

Darayavaus

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Not exactly off the rails as per the OP's thread title though. Bows have had a long history of being used to penetrate all types of personal armor, and they still have some modern anti-armor uses, though limited. You need a sharp "needle bodkin" type head and at least 40# of pull and you will get good results against soft body armor. "Stopping" power is almost nonexistent on the other hand. You basically have a big ass flechette launcher...
When I was in Vienna, one of the museums, probably the Kaiserliche or the Kunsthistorisches Museum, had battlefied KIA armor from the various Turkish attacks on the Holy Roman Empire. It was interesting to see the effects of Arquebus and even cannon fire on plate mail. Unfortunately they did not allow pictures inside.

these are from other sources, but same idea.

1586668866552.png

1586668939286.png
 
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Jscb1b

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As I understand it, bullet proof first meant plate mail would stop a musket ball. The armorer would shoot his breast plate to show it would stop the ball.
 
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Blue Sky Country

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When I was in Vienna, one of the museums, probably the Kaiserliche or the Kunsthistorisches Museum, had battlefied KIA armor from the various Turkish attacks on the Holy Roman Empire. It was interesting to see the effects of Arquebus and even cannon fire on plate mail. Unfortunately they did not allow pictures inside.

these are from other sources, but same idea.

View attachment 7296332

View attachment 7296333

The Kunsthistorisches Museum is really awesome. Beyond words. There are several full video tours of that place in HD available on Youtube. Most impressive of all are all of the suits of armor they have in their collection. And to think of it, armor had reached it's PEAK of engineering and development right as the proliferation of firearms ended the careers of master armormakers all over the continent.

The early arquebuses were all .50 caliber and above and some were monstrous, 1-inch bore models that required a miniature carriage. The projectiles from these things would not have only penetrated full plate armor, they would have slammed the targets with well over 2000 ft-lbs. of energy. On the eastern end of the continent, the Turks became well known, and quite feared for their mounted archers. The bows of the Akinci (Ottoman light cavalry, raiders) can penetrate a full suit of plate upwards of more than 100 yards, and to make it worse, Turkish archers often aimed for the slits in the visors of knights' helmets, with devastating results that utterly terrified the continental warriors that prided themselves on being the most fearsome fighting entities in central Europe. It was actually the constant attacks by the Muslim raiders which greatly facilitated the widespread use of guns throughout the continent. Arms races are primarily fueled by desperation for a solution. It is adapt, or be annihilated. It took less than 50 years for Europe to transform from a military entity primarily dominated by heavily armed and armored cavalry, to one that is defined by infantry equipped with muskets, and then rifled muskets, complete with elaborate arms drills, marches, and parade formations.

The suit of armor on the bottom is in the UK, and was made and used during the Oliver Cromwell era. The English Civil War was probably the last conflict which saw the use of full suits of armor and the longbow.
 

pmclaine

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The Kunsthistorisches Museum is really awesome. Beyond words. There are several full video tours of that place in HD available on Youtube. Most impressive of all are all of the suits of armor they have in their collection. And to think of it, armor had reached it's PEAK of engineering and development right as the proliferation of firearms ended the careers of master armormakers all over the continent.

The early arquebuses were all .50 caliber and above and some were monstrous, 1-inch bore models that required a miniature carriage. The projectiles from these things would not have only penetrated full plate armor, they would have slammed the targets with well over 2000 ft-lbs. of energy. On the eastern end of the continent, the Turks became well known, and quite feared for their mounted archers. The bows of the Akinci (Ottoman light cavalry, raiders) can penetrate a full suit of plate upwards of more than 100 yards, and to make it worse, Turkish archers often aimed for the slits in the visors of knights' helmets, with devastating results that utterly terrified the continental warriors that prided themselves on being the most fearsome fighting entities in central Europe. It was actually the constant attacks by the Muslim raiders which greatly facilitated the widespread use of guns throughout the continent. Arms races are primarily fueled by desperation for a solution. It is adapt, or be annihilated. It took less than 50 years for Europe to transform from a military entity primarily dominated by heavily armed and armored cavalry, to one that is defined by infantry equipped with muskets, and then rifled muskets, complete with elaborate arms drills, marches, and parade formations.

The suit of armor on the bottom is in the UK, and was made and used during the Oliver Cromwell era. The English Civil War was probably the last conflict which saw the use of full suits of armor and the longbow.

..........and it seems once again armor is taking a smaller role as the means to destroy it have exceeded its ability to defend.