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Bolt Action Rifles: So behind the times, here is what I want...

EricCartmann

EricCartmann

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Feb 21, 2010
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Bolt Action Rifles like the R700 are so behind the times. I am sure all the GunSmiths loves Remington though, since people pay hundreds to have them worked on for things that should already be included in the gun.

There is no need to design a rifle from the ground up either, just use existing parts that are out there. Things a Bolt Action Rifle should already have:

1) Quick Change Barrel -
All Barrels should have the ability to swap out easily. Or at the very least, make the barrel AR style where any monkey can screw on the barrel himself, where the Extension is pre-headspace, just like on an AR.

2) AR style bolts with AR style locking lugs -
It is no secret that AR and SCARs are inherently accurate right out of the box. It's the bolt design that makes it so. Why don't Bolt Action Rifles have this bolt? AR10 and AR15 bolts are already out there, so no redesign needed other than a special Carrier.

3) A Receiver that is the chassis -
All those dam expensive "chassis" are not really needed if someone would just make a gun where the receiver is part of the chassis. Actually someone already did! Many Semi-Autos are already like this. A gun like a M14 or R700, where the action has to SIT on something is lame, archaic, and unnecessary.


Lame stuff on Bolt Action that needs to be gone from all guns:

1) Bedding -
Bedding is archaic and should not be necessary. The gun should come that way! Or at the very least come with a system where bedding is not needed such as an AR. It's nice most newer stocks have aluminum blocks now so bedding is not necessary.

2) Blue Printing / Straightening action -
Why in God's good name is this not already done at the Factory? I myself think most R700 action comes 100% straight from the factories these days. If action is not straight, then the buyer should get a refund from the manufacturer.

However, the way things are now, no refunds.. if the action is not, the gun will suffer and there is no real way to correct this by the buyer other than taking it to a smith and having him straiten it out. At least with AR's, the AR style bolt always guarantee the bolt to lock tighter even if it is a little off. Savage made a great enhancement in that their bolts have a floating bolt head.

The R700 action is currently still King when it comes to bolt-action rifles, despite the whole receiver/bolt-design being 200 years old. I guess as long as there are buyers and fanbois of the R700 action, there is really no need for the gun industry to change. The Fanbois will keep everyone at bay! "re-educating" the masses Mao style by telling "great revolutionary stories" how the R700 is king at matches, and anyone that try to say otherwise will be squashed! these fanbois have many fanboi friends who will also chime in and troll the other guy out of the discussion.
 
Agree about the points of the r700 action.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
 
Eric, actually most of this has already be done. The McMillan Alias rifle is just that. The receiver is the chassis and the barrels are quick change in seconds. The bolt is still a two lug bolt because that is still the most efficient way to do it for a smooth working bolt action. A multiple lug bolt with a very short bolt lift would require a very steep cocking cam for firing pin retraction and cocking and make the bolt very hard to open.
 
hmmm last sniper comp i was at had trued up rem700 in many of the top spots. why does the wheel need reinvented? i'm not a fan boy or really even give a shit but the platform works and is robust. i dont need a starship trooper rifle. sounds to me like what you want is a gas gun with a bolt handle...
 
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strike33 said:
sounds like all you need to do is get a side charging AR and turn the gas off. And there you have it..bolt action AR
Click to expand...

I actually thought about that, get a receiver that will accept a left side charging handle, and use the JP Carrier.
 
Dick D said:
Eric, actually most of this has already be done. The McMillan Alias rifle is just that. The receiver is the chassis and the barrels are quick change in seconds. The bolt is still a two lug bolt because that is still the most efficient way to do it for a smooth working bolt action. A multiple lug bolt with a very short bolt lift would require a very steep cocking cam for firing pin retraction and cocking and make the bolt very hard to open.
Click to expand...


Nice! I guess I need to get out more. Most actions I see are R700, R700 style, or Savages.
 
Killswitch Engage said:
hmmm last sniper comp i was at had trued up rem700 in 4 of the top 5 spots. why does the wheel need reinvented? i'm not a fan boy or really even give a shit but the platform works and is robust. i dont need a starship trooper rifle. sounds to me like what you want is a gas gun with a bolt handle...
Click to expand...

glad a fanboi chimed in! yes it works, and why change something that works? (so goes the logic of the typical fanboi
 
Obviously you've never been in manufacturing. It would be wonderful if a rifle could come from the factory blueprinted but in real life there are tolerances that exist because its not possible to make things in volume as tight as a gunsmith can make them one at a time.....unless you want to spend twice what it normally costs. All shooters don't need or want sub MOA performance and they really don't want to pay for it. That means remington makes a reasonably accurate rifle for the masses and if you want something special you pay for it. Works pretty well that way. Same goes for chassis systems.....most don't want them or don't want to pay for them so if you want to spend the extra cash have at it. Lastly, AR bolts are not that great. Their locking system is most definitely not the best for a bolt gun. Its more complex to make, more likely to break and not better than a 2 lug bolt or any of the other types. Its made the way it is to allow a short rotation to open up or lock up in a semi or full auto. Maybe ideal for that but not for a bolt gun. The idea of using a barrel extension is on the other hand a great idea. Why headspace the receiver when the bolt and barrel extension can do it better and more consistently? Well after looking around we find that Desert Tactical is doing just that with their SRS and HTI series rifles. They are planning to do the same with their new semi auto rifle. Its been done for years with a number of other guns like the MG34, MG42, Johnson semi and light machineguns (where the AR bolt and barrel extension came from) and others. So you do have some choices and thats a wonderful thing. I don' really want a remington style chassis system but I do like my DT SRS where the receiver is the chassis. I do like my lightweight remingtons though so I'm glad I've got a choice...


Frank
 
biffj said:
Obviously you've never been in manufacturing. It would be wonderful if a rifle could come from the factory blueprinted but in real life there are tolerances that exist because its not possible to make things in volume as tight as a gunsmith can make them one at a time.....unless you want to spend twice what it normally costs. All shooters don't need or want sub MOA performance and they really don't want to pay for it. That means remington makes a reasonably accurate rifle for the masses and if you want something special you pay for it. Works pretty well that way. Same goes for chassis systems.....most don't want them or don't want to pay for them so if you want to spend the extra cash have at it. Lastly, AR bolts are not that great. Their locking system is most definitely not the best for a bolt gun. Its more complex to make, more likely to break and not better than a 2 lug bolt or any of the other types. Its made the way it is to allow a short rotation to open up or lock up in a semi or full auto. Maybe ideal for that but not for a bolt gun. The idea of using a barrel extension is on the other hand a great idea. Why headspace the receiver when the bolt and barrel extension can do it better and more consistently? Well after looking around we find that Desert Tactical is doing just that with their SRS and HTI series rifles. They are planning to do the same with their new semi auto rifle. Its been done for years with a number of other guns like the MG34, MG42, Johnson semi and light machineguns (where the AR bolt and barrel extension came from) and others. So you do have some choices and thats a wonderful thing. I don' really want a remington style chassis system but I do like my DT SRS where the receiver is the chassis. I do like my lightweight remingtons though so I'm glad I've got a choice...


Frank
Click to expand...


The idea is to mass produce accuracy for cheap, and the way the R700 is designed, this is not possible.

The AR15 though is massed produced, and cheap! Any monkey can screw in an AR barrel and make the gun 300% more accurate. No need to re-invent the wheel, AR15 bolts are already out there, and so are AR10 bolts, and they are fairly cheap. Do we really need to rotate the bolt manually? I know that is how it was 200 years ago, that and it looks cool in the movies and on the firing line, but why not just feed each round by pulling straight back and let the action rotate the bolt (such as on semi-autos).

Now you might be wondering why I just don't buy an AR then.. well I want to be able to manually feed my rounds, so I can neck size and load for subsonics.

I actually got my answer from the posters above.. I need to build an AR10 with a side charging handle and have a gas block that I can turn off ;-)
 
EricCartmann said:
thank you. sometimes I troll without even knowing I am trolling. it's hard to go against the cool kids majority.. doing so will only get you banned!
Click to expand...

I know.... Been suspended by the god lowlight for not agreeing/falling into line before.
 
Well said BiffJ. To echo your thought, the market isn't there for a rifle described by OP in mass quantities because cost would be too high. I have had to work a semi-auto like a bolt gun...it sucks.

Cartmen to your point, there are some good ideas in your post...you just have to pay for them. As mentioned DTA and AI AT might be more up your alley.
 
verdugo60 said:
Well said BiffJ. To echo your thought, the market isn't there for a rifle described by OP in mass quantities because cost would be too high. I have had to work a semi-auto like a bolt gun...it sucks.

Cartmen to your point, there are some good ideas in your post...you just have to pay for them. As mentioned DTA and AI AT might be more up your alley.
Click to expand...


Bravo to DTA and AI! Hopefully the rest of the industry will follow.
 
Perhaps you should look at the Mannlicher M93 or M95 straight pull bolt guns or the Swiss K31. The K31 is normally an moa or better out of the box and is a straight pull bolt action. For something newer the Blaser rifle is a straight pull with a barrel extension type locking setup using an expanding bolt head to lock the thing up. Quicker than any AR out there but manually operated. More accurate than a lot of accurized bolt guns and lightweight to boot. Not really sure what you're looking for other than a manually operated AR....which sounds a bit boring.
Just my opinion of course.

Frank
 
OP, those seem like some great ideas.

Get busy inventing it while we go shooting our tired old bolt action rifles.
 
Have to agree with the above. Just pick up a JP LRP-07 with the side charger. Or if you really wanna go all out pick up a K31 or Blaser Tac-2 action and mate it to an Eliseo tube gun chassis. And there you go, straight-pull bolt rifle with AR15 ergonomics and accepts AR15 grips/stocks.

Call me a fanboy or not, Im prefectly happy with a R700, Mauser, or equivalent. Less complicated, more simple usually means more reliable. KISS.
 
Dta
Barrett mrad

Barrels with extension. Check
Action and chassi as one piece. Check
Floating bolt head ( this being why ARs are accurate ) check
No bedding Check

To expensive double check
 
biffj said:
Perhaps you should look at the Mannlicher M93 or M95 straight pull bolt guns or the Swiss K31. The K31 is normally an moa or better out of the box and is a straight pull bolt action. For something newer the Blaser rifle is a straight pull with a barrel extension type locking setup using an expanding bolt head to lock the thing up. Quicker than any AR out there but manually operated. More accurate than a lot of accurized bolt guns and lightweight to boot. Not really sure what you're looking for other than a manually operated AR....which sounds a bit boring.
Just my opinion of course.

Frank
Click to expand...

Yeah that is what I am talking about! No need to manually rotate the bolt, the designers of the M95 figured this out, and what that gun was designed like 100 years ago? Just saying, it is a lot of work and money into customizing a R700. Now I know people have no issues doing this, but I think most people do not want to put the time and effort, they just want a fast track car and fairly inexpensive car off the production line, ala Mits Lancer.
 
I vote that American rifle Co make their new M5 rifle action a integral interface (the chassis itself) which accepts AR grips, rear stocks and hand guards.

FYI, the most awesome action I've ever used is a rimfire action, the Anschutz 1827 Fortner biathlon. Take this concept and the integral interface, which accepts AR grips, rear stocks and hand guards, then bullpup it like DTA has done and you've got the most bad ass rifle that hasn't been invented yet.

How's that for forward thinking!
 
jashmore1234 said:
OP, those seem like some great ideas.

Get busy inventing it while we go shooting our tired old bolt action rifles.
Click to expand...


I am too busy with my own "obsolete" guns to take the time making anything.

_CartmannFamilySpring2013-vi.jpg
 
steve123 said:
I vote that American rifle Co make their new M5 rifle action a integral interface (the chassis itself) which accepts AR grips, rear stocks and hand guards.

FYI, the most awesome action I've ever used is a rimfire action, the Anschutz 1827 Fortner biathlon. Take this concept and the integral interface, which accepts AR grips, rear stocks and hand guards, then bullpup it like DTA has done and you've got the most bad ass rifle that hasn't been invented yet.

How's that for forward thinking!
Click to expand...

that's what I'm talkin about!
 
Merkel (sp?)... and I think there was at one point a Mauser 96 american (straight pull - that has been bought out and being made again in Germany) that have a similar system to what you are talking about except for the chassis part but they have a similar bolt and fast change capabilities and seem to be accurate


YMMV -

ps. You can pick up a mauser 96 american online sometimes for ~$800.00
 
EricCartmann said:
Bolt Action Rifles like the R700 are so behind the times. I am sure all the GunSmiths loves Remington though, since people pay hundreds to have them worked on for things that should already be included in the gun.

There is no need to design a rifle from the ground up either, just use existing parts that are out there. Things a Bolt Action Rifle should already have:

1) Quick Change Barrel -
All Barrels should have the ability to swap out easily. Or at the very least, make the barrel AR style where any monkey can screw on the barrel himself, where the Extension is pre-headspace, just like on an AR.

2) AR style bolts with AR style locking lugs -
It is no secret that AR and SCARs are inherently accurate right out of the box. It's the bolt design that makes it so. Why don't Bolt Action Rifles have this bolt? AR10 and AR15 bolts are already out there, so no redesign needed other than a special Carrier.

3) A Receiver that is the chassis -
All those dam expensive "chassis" are not really needed if someone would just make a gun where the receiver is part of the chassis. Actually someone already did! Many Semi-Autos are already like this. A gun like a M14 or R700, where the action has to SIT on something is lame, archaic, and unnecessary.


Lame stuff on Bolt Action that needs to be gone from all guns:

1) Bedding -
Bedding is archaic and should not be necessary. The gun should come that way! Or at the very least come with a system where bedding is not needed such as an AR. It's nice most newer stocks have aluminum blocks now so bedding is not necessary.

2) Blue Printing / Straightening action -
Why in God's good name is this not already done at the Factory? I myself think most R700 action comes 100% straight from the factories these days. If action is not straight, then the buyer should get a refund from the manufacturer.

However, the way things are now, no refunds.. if the action is not, the gun will suffer and there is no real way to correct this by the buyer other than taking it to a smith and having him straiten it out. At least with AR's, the AR style bolt always guarantee the bolt to lock tighter even if it is a little off. Savage made a great enhancement in that their bolts have a floating bolt head.

The R700 action is currently still King when it comes to bolt-action rifles, despite the whole receiver/bolt-design being 200 years old. I guess as long as there are buyers and fanbois of the R700 action, there is really no need for the gun industry to change. The Fanbois will keep everyone at bay! "re-educating" the masses Mao style by telling "great revolutionary stories" how the R700 is king at matches, and anyone that try to say otherwise will be squashed! these fanbois have many fanboi friends who will also chime in and troll the other guy out of the discussion.
Click to expand...

Is this not what is being tried in the Ruger American and the Rem 770? using three bolt lugs and the barrel extension pressed in a aluminum tube for the receiver / scope and trigger mount? ( haven't looked that close to these yet)
 
Last edited:
There is a British "I think it was British ?" Rifle that used an ar bolt and barrels. Short throw and all, but it did not seem to catch on.
 
FYI the 1911 is old hell the ar15 is old, but I still like them!
 
EricCartmann said:
thanks.. these are also all her guns. I am allowed to play with them if... wait be right back, she is yelling from upstairs to take out the garbage....
Click to expand...

Jesus! Thats a friggin armory! LOL is the Tec-9 fully auto?

Out of all the bolt rifles, which is your favorite and/or most accurate?

On the top row, third from the left, is that a G3? Also, what is that on the top row 6th from the left?

Thanks.
 
Perhaps Tubbs 2000 is what you fancy?

I would have to argue "R700 is currently still King..." is not accurate. More like president, voted in by popular demand. Could be great, could need a lot of work.
 
How'd you lean the light saber against the couch without cuttin it in half??
 
Please God no, don't make me lift the bolt handle before pulling it. Ugh, I have no energy for this. ;D

I like that dagger on the left. Looks like Sting from the LOTR movies.
 
jbhotrod said:
Jesus! Thats a friggin armory! LOL is the Tec-9 fully auto?

Out of all the bolt rifles, which is your favorite and/or most accurate?

On the top row, third from the left, is that a G3? Also, what is that on the top row 6th from the left?

Thanks.
Click to expand...


Tech-9 is semi auto. the G3 is not a HK, it is a PTR-91. I enjoy shooting the .50 the most, but I like all my guns.. I mean my mom's guns.. even iron sites with my M14s is fun stuff to me. Now though, I don't shoot as much, only time I really shoot is when friends from out of town come in, or when I am teaching new shooters. Most people get a real kick out of shooting real guns the first time they try it.
 
I was thinking about this. And IMO combined receiver/chassis rifles may start to catch on in the tactical community. However I doubt it would overtake the R700 anywhere else. Mainly because, for say F-Class or benchrest, its gonna be easier to put as heavy of a barrel as possible on a conventional setup, not to mention easier to barrel block a conventional setup.

However, instead of that, do you, or anyone else for that matter, think theres any merit to a bolt rifle where the action and barrel are one piece of metal? This should make for a stiffer overall setup however the machining is gonna be more complex/expensive. Overall Id think instead of a large manufacturer mass-producing one-piece action-barrels, its gonna be easier to make a conventional bolt-action extremely accurate on a case-by-case basis than expecting a large manufacturer to get the action completely concentric and lined up with the bore. Not to mention to change caliber/cartridge youd basically have to get an entirely new rifle.

Thanks yall.
 
Bolt Action Rifles like the R700 are so behind the times. I am sure all the GunSmiths loves Remington though, since people pay hundreds to have them worked on for things that should already be included in the gun.

There is no need to design a rifle from the ground up either, just use existing parts that are out there. Things a Bolt Action Rifle should already have:

1) Quick Change Barrel -
All Barrels should have the ability to swap out easily. Or at the very least, make the barrel AR style where any monkey can screw on the barrel himself, where the Extension is pre-headspace, just like on an AR.

-I agree. Intigral or pinned recoil lugs make this possible and actions like this are widely available!

2) AR style bolts with AR style locking lugs -
It is no secret that AR and SCARs are inherently accurate right out of the box. It's the bolt design that makes it so. Why don't Bolt Action Rifles have this bolt? AR10 and AR15 bolts are already out there, so no redesign needed other than a special Carrier.

-Bolt actions and semi-autos bolts lug designs can't be fairly compared. Keep in mind ARs have a hammer that your bolt carrier cocks when 45,000 C.U.P.'s are unlocking and cocking your firing mech. You think a 60 degree bolt throw is heavy?!! Try the 22.5 degree throw that 8 lugs would require...

3) A Receiver that is the chassis -
All those dam expensive "chassis" are not really needed if someone would just make a gun where the receiver is part of the chassis. Actually someone already did! Many Semi-Autos are already like this. A gun like a M14 or R700, where the action has to SIT on something is lame, archaic, and unnecessary.

- Considering the way the market is going, an action that the user can't dictate which chassis or stock it may go in could be a bad thing, unless ofcourse you can get AI to put thier name on your shit.


Lame stuff on Bolt Action that needs to be gone from all guns:

1) Bedding -
Bedding is archaic and should not be necessary. The gun should come that way! Or at the very least come with a system where bedding is not needed such as an AR. It's nice most newer stocks have aluminum blocks now so bedding is not necessary.

Would be a good idea but considering that not all actions have your #2 attribute, bedding usually has more repeatability when disassembly/ assembly is part of the picture.

2) Blue Printing / Straightening action -
Why in God's good name is this not already done at the Factory? I myself think most R700 action comes 100% straight from the factories these days. If action is not straight, then the buyer should get a refund from the manufacturer.

Think again, very few are STRAIGHT. Quality vs. Quantity... Spend the money on a quality trued action or buy a mass produced action and have it trued.

However, the way things are now, no refunds.. if the action is not, the gun will suffer and there is no real way to correct this by the buyer other than taking it to a smith and having him straiten it out. At least with AR's, the AR style bolt always guarantee the bolt to lock tighter even if it is a little off. Savage made a great enhancement in that their bolts have a floating bolt head.

The R700 action is currently still King when it comes to bolt-action rifles, despite the whole receiver/bolt-design being 200 years old. I guess as long as there are buyers and fanbois of the R700 action, there is really no need for the gun industry to change. The Fanbois will keep everyone at bay! "re-educating" the masses Mao style by telling "great revolutionary stories" how the R700 is king at matches, and anyone that try to say otherwise will be squashed! these fanbois have many fanboi friends who will also chime in and troll the other guy out of the discussion.
 
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