evning all dumb question.while priming some 308 cases tonight i noticed that some off the primers went into the pocket with little to no resistance.anyone ever run into this?is that an indication the brass is junk. thanks for the help..
brass life
- Thread starter motodog
- Start date
Re: brass life
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: motodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">evning all dumb question.while priming some 308 cases tonight i noticed that some off the primers went into the pocket with little to no resistance.anyone ever run into this?is that an indication the brass is junk. thanks for the help.. </div></div>
Firing #2 is the all time best it'll ever be. In factory chambers, after 5-6 firings the necks start to work harden and accuracy falls off. I wouldnt push them more than 5-6 firings and still look for peak accuracy. 8-10 and they're in the trash bag. With loose primer pockets, I'd file them as well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: motodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">evning all dumb question.while priming some 308 cases tonight i noticed that some off the primers went into the pocket with little to no resistance.anyone ever run into this?is that an indication the brass is junk. thanks for the help.. </div></div>
Firing #2 is the all time best it'll ever be. In factory chambers, after 5-6 firings the necks start to work harden and accuracy falls off. I wouldnt push them more than 5-6 firings and still look for peak accuracy. 8-10 and they're in the trash bag. With loose primer pockets, I'd file them as well.
Re: brass life
very good then i will pitch the sobs and buy some new stuff.oh great another excuse to spend money on my addiction.thanks for the help.i love this place.
very good then i will pitch the sobs and buy some new stuff.oh great another excuse to spend money on my addiction.thanks for the help.i love this place.
Re: brass life
the brass was used when i git it and i have never really poured the coals to it.im loading 44grns tac pushing a 168 amax.as a new reloader i just learned a that i should keep a count on the amount of times i reloaded the round wich i have not.but will start now.
the brass was used when i git it and i have never really poured the coals to it.im loading 44grns tac pushing a 168 amax.as a new reloader i just learned a that i should keep a count on the amount of times i reloaded the round wich i have not.but will start now.
Re: brass life
is there a way to measure the primer pocket after cleaning and before repriming?like a primer pocket go-nogo-guage i can buy
is there a way to measure the primer pocket after cleaning and before repriming?like a primer pocket go-nogo-guage i can buy
Re: brass life
motodog,
If using FC brass and loading generously, you will get primer cup expansion fairly quickly. They anneal the whole case. The necks are nice and soft to start with. But so is the case head. And it doesn't take much initial pressure to work that. Case head 'wipe' is the first indicator but loosening primers progressively tells me more. Lapua has soft necks and leaves the case head hard. Not to mention their quality control is better than anyone else out there. Norma has high quality brass but a little soft. Win has the right hardness but quality sometimes lacks what Lapua does.
What velocity are you getting out of that load? 2600-2630 should be about the norm. If you get more velocity you will get shorter brass life. But, sometimes you will get better accuracy. So, your choice where you push them to.
You might try a slower powder and more of it. 44 gr. is about 5-6 gr. under what that case will hold. RE-19 comes to mind. Maybe RE-22 if you have a long barrel.
motodog,
If using FC brass and loading generously, you will get primer cup expansion fairly quickly. They anneal the whole case. The necks are nice and soft to start with. But so is the case head. And it doesn't take much initial pressure to work that. Case head 'wipe' is the first indicator but loosening primers progressively tells me more. Lapua has soft necks and leaves the case head hard. Not to mention their quality control is better than anyone else out there. Norma has high quality brass but a little soft. Win has the right hardness but quality sometimes lacks what Lapua does.
What velocity are you getting out of that load? 2600-2630 should be about the norm. If you get more velocity you will get shorter brass life. But, sometimes you will get better accuracy. So, your choice where you push them to.
You might try a slower powder and more of it. 44 gr. is about 5-6 gr. under what that case will hold. RE-19 comes to mind. Maybe RE-22 if you have a long barrel.
Re: brass life
Trash can. I've shot ones like that before and can tell you it's not worth it. If the primers are just popping in with no effort at all toss them.
Trash can. I've shot ones like that before and can tell you it's not worth it. If the primers are just popping in with no effort at all toss them.
Re: brass life
Having the primer pockets open up is a sign that you are using too much pressure "for those cases".
I have one lot (100) of Win cases (308) that is on its 29th reload cycle. I have not lost a single case in this lot to <pick case death mode> and the ammo still shoots similarly as it did way back at reload cycles 3-5. These cases are subject to a stiff load (47.8 gr Varget) pushing 155 Scenars and 2156 SKMs. Here, the primers are still slipping in with moderate pressure.
My guess is that you are using Federal cases--known to be soft.
Having the primer pockets open up is a sign that you are using too much pressure "for those cases".
I have one lot (100) of Win cases (308) that is on its 29th reload cycle. I have not lost a single case in this lot to <pick case death mode> and the ammo still shoots similarly as it did way back at reload cycles 3-5. These cases are subject to a stiff load (47.8 gr Varget) pushing 155 Scenars and 2156 SKMs. Here, the primers are still slipping in with moderate pressure.
My guess is that you are using Federal cases--known to be soft.
Re: brass life
I have to agree with the opinion of those above. When the primer pocket loosens up, they go in the recycle bin. I keep a cardboard box under my bench just for trash cases.
I have to agree with the opinion of those above. When the primer pocket loosens up, they go in the recycle bin. I keep a cardboard box under my bench just for trash cases.
Re: brass life
thanks all for your input.yes infact they are all federal cases.i have 50 loaded now that i will shoot but i will can the rest of them as i find the pockets loose.thanks agian for all the info.once agian you have all solved my issue. monty long ps any body coming to gillette wy a praire dog shoot will be on me
thanks all for your input.yes infact they are all federal cases.i have 50 loaded now that i will shoot but i will can the rest of them as i find the pockets loose.thanks agian for all the info.once agian you have all solved my issue. monty long ps any body coming to gillette wy a praire dog shoot will be on me
Re: brass life
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: motodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is there a way to measure the primer pocket after cleaning and before repriming?like a primer pocket go-nogo-guage i can buy </div></div>
if you own a lathe or know someone who has one, make your own PP gage, that is what i did, i shoot mostly 5.56mm/.223 Rem cases, the dimensions of CCI small rifle primer is .1753", Winchester is .1750", those primers are what i use, i made my PP gage to .1750", the following URL will give you the dimensions of the most popular/used primers.
Primer Pocket Size Chart
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: motodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is there a way to measure the primer pocket after cleaning and before repriming?like a primer pocket go-nogo-guage i can buy </div></div>
if you own a lathe or know someone who has one, make your own PP gage, that is what i did, i shoot mostly 5.56mm/.223 Rem cases, the dimensions of CCI small rifle primer is .1753", Winchester is .1750", those primers are what i use, i made my PP gage to .1750", the following URL will give you the dimensions of the most popular/used primers.
Primer Pocket Size Chart
Re: brass life
Sandwarrior...where did you get the information that Federal anneals the whole case? IMWK
Sandwarrior...where did you get the information that Federal anneals the whole case? IMWK
Re: brass life
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If using FC brass and loading generously, you will get primer cup expansion fairly quickly. They anneal the whole case. The necks are nice and soft to start with. But so is the case head. </div></div>
Not quite: a fully annealed case is not strong enough for even its first shot, let alone being reloaded. There are some structural mechanics charts and graphs over at Varmit Al's site.
What we mean by indicating Federal stuff is soft is that they use a brass mixture (copper, tin zinc, silicon) that never gets as hard as the LC or Win stuff (and several others). The base is still suitably work hardened and can deal with a few reload cycles, many if you shoot reduced loadings.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If using FC brass and loading generously, you will get primer cup expansion fairly quickly. They anneal the whole case. The necks are nice and soft to start with. But so is the case head. </div></div>
Not quite: a fully annealed case is not strong enough for even its first shot, let alone being reloaded. There are some structural mechanics charts and graphs over at Varmit Al's site.
What we mean by indicating Federal stuff is soft is that they use a brass mixture (copper, tin zinc, silicon) that never gets as hard as the LC or Win stuff (and several others). The base is still suitably work hardened and can deal with a few reload cycles, many if you shoot reduced loadings.
Re: brass life
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If using FC brass and loading generously, you will get primer cup expansion fairly quickly. They anneal the whole case. The necks are nice and soft to start with. But so is the case head. </div></div>
Not quite: a fully annealed case is not strong enough for even its first shot, let alone being reloaded. There are some structural mechanics charts and graphs over at Varmit Al's site.
What we mean by indicating Federal stuff is soft is that they use a brass mixture (copper, tin zinc, silicon) that never gets as hard as the LC or Win stuff (and several others). The base is still suitably work hardened and can deal with a few reload cycles, many if you shoot reduced loadings.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior...where did you get the information that Federal anneals the whole case? IMWK</div></div>
Guys,
Sorry that isn't the whole story. According to a friend of mine who works there in Anoka.
At some point in the process the brass is annealed and softened. The ensuing processes work harden the case heads. The annealing process at Federal leaves the brass softer than Winchester and Lapua. Lapua brass is definitely harder than Federal and even Winchester in the case head. I've always found it to be nice and soft in the neck though, for several reloads before I have to anneal.
Boittom line: after the processes are completed, FC brass has softer heads than Lapua and Winchester. As much as I don't like paying big prices initially, Lapua is made right all the way through. The vast majority of it anyways.
<span style="color: #3366FF">Edit:
The problem is how soft to start with and how many processes Federal puts their brass through when made. If the case head is too soft, it will show loose pockets on hot loads. The mixture of Federal may be different than Lapua too, but I'm thinking not all that different. Both cases keep their maleability well up in the neck area. So the only other thing on brass that changes hardness is work hardening. I understand Lapua has integrated processes in, in such a manner, that their case heads are work hardened. Not harder from a different mixture.
Edit II:
I also note that Lapua has the color change on the necks indicating fresh annealing. That might indicate Lapua works their brass harder during the manufacturing process and the last thing they do is anneal the necks.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If using FC brass and loading generously, you will get primer cup expansion fairly quickly. They anneal the whole case. The necks are nice and soft to start with. But so is the case head. </div></div>
Not quite: a fully annealed case is not strong enough for even its first shot, let alone being reloaded. There are some structural mechanics charts and graphs over at Varmit Al's site.
What we mean by indicating Federal stuff is soft is that they use a brass mixture (copper, tin zinc, silicon) that never gets as hard as the LC or Win stuff (and several others). The base is still suitably work hardened and can deal with a few reload cycles, many if you shoot reduced loadings.</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior...where did you get the information that Federal anneals the whole case? IMWK</div></div>
Guys,
Sorry that isn't the whole story. According to a friend of mine who works there in Anoka.
At some point in the process the brass is annealed and softened. The ensuing processes work harden the case heads. The annealing process at Federal leaves the brass softer than Winchester and Lapua. Lapua brass is definitely harder than Federal and even Winchester in the case head. I've always found it to be nice and soft in the neck though, for several reloads before I have to anneal.
Boittom line: after the processes are completed, FC brass has softer heads than Lapua and Winchester. As much as I don't like paying big prices initially, Lapua is made right all the way through. The vast majority of it anyways.
<span style="color: #3366FF">Edit:
The problem is how soft to start with and how many processes Federal puts their brass through when made. If the case head is too soft, it will show loose pockets on hot loads. The mixture of Federal may be different than Lapua too, but I'm thinking not all that different. Both cases keep their maleability well up in the neck area. So the only other thing on brass that changes hardness is work hardening. I understand Lapua has integrated processes in, in such a manner, that their case heads are work hardened. Not harder from a different mixture.
Edit II:
I also note that Lapua has the color change on the necks indicating fresh annealing. That might indicate Lapua works their brass harder during the manufacturing process and the last thing they do is anneal the necks.</span>
Re: brass life
I have no way of proving it. But I think the US commercial ammo makers tumble their brass (or maybe loaded rounds) before it goes into the box. Years ago they were trying to sell LOADED AMMO to hunters and shooters. Most of which didn't reload. They weren't trying to make the most accurate ammo. Just the cheapest in a certain accuracy range. And entice people to buy their product. And up to a point that is still the situation.
I have no way of proving it. But I think the US commercial ammo makers tumble their brass (or maybe loaded rounds) before it goes into the box. Years ago they were trying to sell LOADED AMMO to hunters and shooters. Most of which didn't reload. They weren't trying to make the most accurate ammo. Just the cheapest in a certain accuracy range. And entice people to buy their product. And up to a point that is still the situation.
Re: brass life
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no way of proving it. But I think the US commercial ammo makers tumble their brass (or maybe loaded rounds) before it goes into the box. Years ago they were trying to sell LOADED AMMO to hunters and shooters. Most of which didn't reload. They weren't trying to make the most accurate ammo. Just the cheapest in a certain accuracy range. And entice people to buy their product. And up to a point that is still the situation. </div></div>
Sir,
may i clarify and/or dispute some of what you said here ?
thank you,
US commercial ammo makers tumble their brass before and after loading, if the loaded ammo comes out of the box with a tarnished look at the neck and shoulder it was left as is from the presses, if the loaded ammo comes out looking like "GOLD" from tip to base, it was tumbled or vibratory polished.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Years ago they were trying to sell LOADED AMMO to hunters and shooters. Most of which didn't reload.</div></div>
who are "they" ? "LOADED AMMO", of course it has to be loaded or it is worthless, or i am missing your intent ? would you please clarify this, "Most of which didn't reload", in 60+years of reloading, i never saw a cartridge case that couldn't be reloaded, i knew people who during the Depression Era reloaded rimfire cases.
"And up to a point that is still the situation." will you please clarify/verify this ?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no way of proving it. But I think the US commercial ammo makers tumble their brass (or maybe loaded rounds) before it goes into the box. Years ago they were trying to sell LOADED AMMO to hunters and shooters. Most of which didn't reload. They weren't trying to make the most accurate ammo. Just the cheapest in a certain accuracy range. And entice people to buy their product. And up to a point that is still the situation. </div></div>
Sir,
may i clarify and/or dispute some of what you said here ?
thank you,
US commercial ammo makers tumble their brass before and after loading, if the loaded ammo comes out of the box with a tarnished look at the neck and shoulder it was left as is from the presses, if the loaded ammo comes out looking like "GOLD" from tip to base, it was tumbled or vibratory polished.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Years ago they were trying to sell LOADED AMMO to hunters and shooters. Most of which didn't reload.</div></div>
who are "they" ? "LOADED AMMO", of course it has to be loaded or it is worthless, or i am missing your intent ? would you please clarify this, "Most of which didn't reload", in 60+years of reloading, i never saw a cartridge case that couldn't be reloaded, i knew people who during the Depression Era reloaded rimfire cases.
"And up to a point that is still the situation." will you please clarify/verify this ?
Re: brass life
Yes, no, maybe, yebut (yeah butt) the “rest of the story” is:
1. From my former engineering contacts at Federal when they draw their cases they use one less process in the draw that leaves them softer (but still safe to fire). “Annealing the whole case” is absolutely false as an annealed case head will give you a catastrophic failure of the case on the first firing. One of my previous duties when I was with the Army Small Cal Lab was malfunction investigations and on the manual loading lines occasionally the round would go through the gas flames upside down “annealing” the head and not the neck. Case would let go but bolt integrity was fine and still locked in place thusly if the bolt is still locked in battery, the barrel has not blown it only leaves one possibility – case head was soft. That is why it is rather iffy to pick up cases without knowing history. Case in point you are out hunting and find a 30.06 case laying there that has been out in weather. Chances are it is good but if there has been a brush fire there and the case got hot well…… When I found that out I have never opened a box of military ammo and not checked to see if a head was blue. It was estimated this happened about every 30 million rounds or so. To my knowledge no one was killed but I did read a injury report where a troop had the mag rip open his arm on the way out the bottom. The upper receiver group was also bowed out. We averaged a catastrophic failure about every 8 to 10 months.
2. The industry is not in the business of making reloaders happy. Stated simply the average guy doesn’t reload thusly why go to the trouble of making the case “reloader approved”. Also the more cases that wear out quickly the more brass they sell.
3. On 308/7.62 there is another problem. NATO STANAG cases must meet a hardness gradient requirement (hard head web area) which was brought on by the French Mod 52 MG which is basically a copy of the MG42. Without the hard head area the extraction forces are so violent that the rims are ripped off leaving stuck cases. Commercial ammo does not have to meet the STANAG thusly are not hardened to work in the French 52.
4. On some cases you don’t have to have hot loads to open the primer pocket. My personal rule is three strikes they are out (on Federal).
5. The way I determine usefulness is when I get a soft seat I take a Wilson decap rod, ease it into case and see if I can push primer out with thumb pressure. If it doesn’t move I shoot it, if it moves or falls out it is a candidate for a muzzle protector conversion.
6. Primer pocket life can be extended by seating Russian Wolf primers in later loadings. They are larger than ours and you can get a few more loadings out of a case before it gets loose.
7. LC by and large will take multiple reloadings. For instance I have one LC63 Match case (30.06) I have loaded 157 times and it is still snug in primer pocket. Note: case has been cared for and neck stress relieved every third firing. NOT ANNEALED ! ! ! ! ! just stress relieved. Suasponte has a good thread on this on here somewhere.
8. I used to shoot with an ammo engineer from Frankford Arsenal and he showed me how to stress relieve the case necks/shoulders. So far I have been doing it his way last 30+ years and it works.
9. Case life in other areas (mainly just above web) is dependant on how much it moves. If you have a JUMBO SAAMI chamber the case head can expand .007” on firing (and I have seen factory guns give birth to cases that have expanded .009”. Thusly you have a big commercial chamber and you run them in a FL die the brass is thusly moved twice for every firing. The more it moves the harder it becomes and becomes thinner in the web area generally. Thusly you get the little shiny ring in web area of case wall and can even see the insipient separation marks inside the case. If you take your cases out, stand with your back to the sun and hold the case where the sun shines directly in case mouth you can see the shadow. The trick is to know when to discard them and this comes from experience in watching the shadow get darker at the separation point.
10. I have a reamer design formula I use when I buy my reamers which for the most part are custom dims for match rifles. I call it the 222 rule or in other words no part of the case expands/moves/changes more than .002” on firing. As indicated above I have a 30.06 case fired 157 times. New 30.06 cases be it LC Match or commercial measure .465” on the base. The reamer base dimension is .467” thusly when fired case expands to .467 and then springs back. Cases from these chambers measure .4652 when they come from the chamber. The other 2s are neck expansion and shoulder movement. I headspace my rifles so as to not expand forward over .002” and sometimes .001”. I adjust size die with MO Gages and only move my shoulders back .001” to .002”. With this tight set up I can fire cases multiple times and they stay very close to original length and when trimmed only part of the case mouth is dressed up. Custom reamers run about $225.00 these days but with the cost of brass these days it will pay for the reamer in a couple thousand reloads and still continue to fire fine given the right brass.
11. What if you have jumbo chamber, how can brass life be increased? FL dies are not necessarily FL sizing. For instance I have four sets of 30.06 FL dies. One brings case heads back to .465 “, one .466”, one .468 and one .470” (I polished the inside of the die to this dimension so I could use it on my jumbo chambers). Cases fired in SAAMI dim chambers should be .471-.473 on ejection thusly sizing them to .470” at the head just barely moves them but then again as someone pointed out the head size getting bigger obviously is related to primer pocket size.
12. The absolute finest brass I ever loaded was DWM cases. If I ever hit the power ball lottery I am ordering 100,000 of 308, 30.06 from them! ! ! Primer pockets on fired cases are very tight. Next would be LC Match but LC needs to have the necks turned uniformly and inspected for flash hole concentricity. FA same thing. If I remember correctly the case drawing for M118 match allows for a .005” neck wall variation. I think for ball brass it is .007”.
Note: FA57 30.06 is like Federal. The heads are softer and primer pockets open up quickly so if you have FA57 be forewarned. Next I have had good life from IMI cases. Next is Winchester/Remington cases. Have also had good luck (so far) with PRVI PARTIZAN brass.
Bottom line is you can increase your brass life by paying attention to detail. If everything is right you should get 100+ reloads from LC 7.62/30.06 cases. Then again if you have the 747 Syndrome your results may vary.
Yes, no, maybe, yebut (yeah butt) the “rest of the story” is:
1. From my former engineering contacts at Federal when they draw their cases they use one less process in the draw that leaves them softer (but still safe to fire). “Annealing the whole case” is absolutely false as an annealed case head will give you a catastrophic failure of the case on the first firing. One of my previous duties when I was with the Army Small Cal Lab was malfunction investigations and on the manual loading lines occasionally the round would go through the gas flames upside down “annealing” the head and not the neck. Case would let go but bolt integrity was fine and still locked in place thusly if the bolt is still locked in battery, the barrel has not blown it only leaves one possibility – case head was soft. That is why it is rather iffy to pick up cases without knowing history. Case in point you are out hunting and find a 30.06 case laying there that has been out in weather. Chances are it is good but if there has been a brush fire there and the case got hot well…… When I found that out I have never opened a box of military ammo and not checked to see if a head was blue. It was estimated this happened about every 30 million rounds or so. To my knowledge no one was killed but I did read a injury report where a troop had the mag rip open his arm on the way out the bottom. The upper receiver group was also bowed out. We averaged a catastrophic failure about every 8 to 10 months.
2. The industry is not in the business of making reloaders happy. Stated simply the average guy doesn’t reload thusly why go to the trouble of making the case “reloader approved”. Also the more cases that wear out quickly the more brass they sell.
3. On 308/7.62 there is another problem. NATO STANAG cases must meet a hardness gradient requirement (hard head web area) which was brought on by the French Mod 52 MG which is basically a copy of the MG42. Without the hard head area the extraction forces are so violent that the rims are ripped off leaving stuck cases. Commercial ammo does not have to meet the STANAG thusly are not hardened to work in the French 52.
4. On some cases you don’t have to have hot loads to open the primer pocket. My personal rule is three strikes they are out (on Federal).
5. The way I determine usefulness is when I get a soft seat I take a Wilson decap rod, ease it into case and see if I can push primer out with thumb pressure. If it doesn’t move I shoot it, if it moves or falls out it is a candidate for a muzzle protector conversion.
6. Primer pocket life can be extended by seating Russian Wolf primers in later loadings. They are larger than ours and you can get a few more loadings out of a case before it gets loose.
7. LC by and large will take multiple reloadings. For instance I have one LC63 Match case (30.06) I have loaded 157 times and it is still snug in primer pocket. Note: case has been cared for and neck stress relieved every third firing. NOT ANNEALED ! ! ! ! ! just stress relieved. Suasponte has a good thread on this on here somewhere.
8. I used to shoot with an ammo engineer from Frankford Arsenal and he showed me how to stress relieve the case necks/shoulders. So far I have been doing it his way last 30+ years and it works.
9. Case life in other areas (mainly just above web) is dependant on how much it moves. If you have a JUMBO SAAMI chamber the case head can expand .007” on firing (and I have seen factory guns give birth to cases that have expanded .009”. Thusly you have a big commercial chamber and you run them in a FL die the brass is thusly moved twice for every firing. The more it moves the harder it becomes and becomes thinner in the web area generally. Thusly you get the little shiny ring in web area of case wall and can even see the insipient separation marks inside the case. If you take your cases out, stand with your back to the sun and hold the case where the sun shines directly in case mouth you can see the shadow. The trick is to know when to discard them and this comes from experience in watching the shadow get darker at the separation point.
10. I have a reamer design formula I use when I buy my reamers which for the most part are custom dims for match rifles. I call it the 222 rule or in other words no part of the case expands/moves/changes more than .002” on firing. As indicated above I have a 30.06 case fired 157 times. New 30.06 cases be it LC Match or commercial measure .465” on the base. The reamer base dimension is .467” thusly when fired case expands to .467 and then springs back. Cases from these chambers measure .4652 when they come from the chamber. The other 2s are neck expansion and shoulder movement. I headspace my rifles so as to not expand forward over .002” and sometimes .001”. I adjust size die with MO Gages and only move my shoulders back .001” to .002”. With this tight set up I can fire cases multiple times and they stay very close to original length and when trimmed only part of the case mouth is dressed up. Custom reamers run about $225.00 these days but with the cost of brass these days it will pay for the reamer in a couple thousand reloads and still continue to fire fine given the right brass.
11. What if you have jumbo chamber, how can brass life be increased? FL dies are not necessarily FL sizing. For instance I have four sets of 30.06 FL dies. One brings case heads back to .465 “, one .466”, one .468 and one .470” (I polished the inside of the die to this dimension so I could use it on my jumbo chambers). Cases fired in SAAMI dim chambers should be .471-.473 on ejection thusly sizing them to .470” at the head just barely moves them but then again as someone pointed out the head size getting bigger obviously is related to primer pocket size.
12. The absolute finest brass I ever loaded was DWM cases. If I ever hit the power ball lottery I am ordering 100,000 of 308, 30.06 from them! ! ! Primer pockets on fired cases are very tight. Next would be LC Match but LC needs to have the necks turned uniformly and inspected for flash hole concentricity. FA same thing. If I remember correctly the case drawing for M118 match allows for a .005” neck wall variation. I think for ball brass it is .007”.
Note: FA57 30.06 is like Federal. The heads are softer and primer pockets open up quickly so if you have FA57 be forewarned. Next I have had good life from IMI cases. Next is Winchester/Remington cases. Have also had good luck (so far) with PRVI PARTIZAN brass.
Bottom line is you can increase your brass life by paying attention to detail. If everything is right you should get 100+ reloads from LC 7.62/30.06 cases. Then again if you have the 747 Syndrome your results may vary.
Re: brass life
Hummer...good info. I will see what I can use to extend my case life with my jumbo factory Rem 700 until I get the time and money to get it to a rifle smith to work it over.
Hummer...good info. I will see what I can use to extend my case life with my jumbo factory Rem 700 until I get the time and money to get it to a rifle smith to work it over.
Re: brass life
If you don't have the lathe available or the pocket change to have a machine shop make a set of pocket gauges for you, it's easy enough to put calipers across the extractor groove and measure it.
Each batch of brass I get new I take a measurement from the extractor groove and note it in the loading data book that I keep. I measure the extractor groove and watch for it to grow as I work up a load or as case cycles increase.
When it's 0.001" larger than it started, they're just about done. I load 'em 1 more time and then trash them. Sharpie works nicely for marking the case heads that are on their last cycle. When I am putting brass through the tumbler I look at the case head and toss the sharpied cases into my recycle bucket.
Hummer- That's a great set of info you posted. Thank you.
If you don't have the lathe available or the pocket change to have a machine shop make a set of pocket gauges for you, it's easy enough to put calipers across the extractor groove and measure it.
Each batch of brass I get new I take a measurement from the extractor groove and note it in the loading data book that I keep. I measure the extractor groove and watch for it to grow as I work up a load or as case cycles increase.
When it's 0.001" larger than it started, they're just about done. I load 'em 1 more time and then trash them. Sharpie works nicely for marking the case heads that are on their last cycle. When I am putting brass through the tumbler I look at the case head and toss the sharpied cases into my recycle bucket.
Hummer- That's a great set of info you posted. Thank you.
Re: brass life
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no way of proving it. But I think the US commercial ammo makers tumble their brass (or maybe loaded rounds) before it goes into the box. Years ago they were trying to sell LOADED AMMO to hunters and shooters. Most of which didn't reload. They weren't trying to make the most accurate ammo. Just the cheapest in a certain accuracy range. And entice people to buy their product. And up to a point that is still the situation. </div></div>
Sir,
may i clarify and/or dispute some of what you said here ?
thank you,
US commercial ammo makers tumble their brass before and after loading, if the loaded ammo comes out of the box with a tarnished look at the neck and shoulder it was left as is from the presses, if the loaded ammo comes out looking like "GOLD" from tip to base, it was tumbled or vibratory polished.
<span style="color: #FF0000">I just know in years past that I have bought factory ammo and the hollow points had corn cob grit in the point. I was just stating my OPINION.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Years ago they were trying to sell LOADED AMMO to hunters and shooters. Most of which didn't reload.</div></div>
who are "they" ? "LOADED AMMO", of course it has to be loaded or it is worthless, or i am missing your intent ? would you please clarify this, "Most of which didn't reload", in 60+years of reloading, i never saw a cartridge case that couldn't be reloaded, i knew people who during the Depression Era reloaded rimfire cases.
"And up to a point that is still the situation." will you please clarify/verify this ?
</div></div>
<span style="color: #FF0000">I did not mean to say that there wasn't handloading going on before the years previous. Take a look at simple numbers. In 1972 when I started handloading I had to drive into another county for ANY SUPPLIES. There was not a single dealer or store that handled any kind of components. I only knew one other person when I started that knew how to handload. There may have been a dozen people in our county that handloaded for any thing. Most of those were shotgun shooters.
Fast forward to today. There are 2 stores in my little town that carry components, and probably 3 dozen in Knoxville itself. There are even monthly magazines dedicated to handloading alone. I would gamble a risk and say that the number of people handloading today versus say 1960 is 10 or 20 :1 In now way was I saying it wasn't done decades ago. Just not as much as today.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Piston Pete</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no way of proving it. But I think the US commercial ammo makers tumble their brass (or maybe loaded rounds) before it goes into the box. Years ago they were trying to sell LOADED AMMO to hunters and shooters. Most of which didn't reload. They weren't trying to make the most accurate ammo. Just the cheapest in a certain accuracy range. And entice people to buy their product. And up to a point that is still the situation. </div></div>
Sir,
may i clarify and/or dispute some of what you said here ?
thank you,
US commercial ammo makers tumble their brass before and after loading, if the loaded ammo comes out of the box with a tarnished look at the neck and shoulder it was left as is from the presses, if the loaded ammo comes out looking like "GOLD" from tip to base, it was tumbled or vibratory polished.
<span style="color: #FF0000">I just know in years past that I have bought factory ammo and the hollow points had corn cob grit in the point. I was just stating my OPINION.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Years ago they were trying to sell LOADED AMMO to hunters and shooters. Most of which didn't reload.</div></div>
who are "they" ? "LOADED AMMO", of course it has to be loaded or it is worthless, or i am missing your intent ? would you please clarify this, "Most of which didn't reload", in 60+years of reloading, i never saw a cartridge case that couldn't be reloaded, i knew people who during the Depression Era reloaded rimfire cases.
"And up to a point that is still the situation." will you please clarify/verify this ?
</div></div>
<span style="color: #FF0000">I did not mean to say that there wasn't handloading going on before the years previous. Take a look at simple numbers. In 1972 when I started handloading I had to drive into another county for ANY SUPPLIES. There was not a single dealer or store that handled any kind of components. I only knew one other person when I started that knew how to handload. There may have been a dozen people in our county that handloaded for any thing. Most of those were shotgun shooters.
Fast forward to today. There are 2 stores in my little town that carry components, and probably 3 dozen in Knoxville itself. There are even monthly magazines dedicated to handloading alone. I would gamble a risk and say that the number of people handloading today versus say 1960 is 10 or 20 :1 In now way was I saying it wasn't done decades ago. Just not as much as today.</span>
Re: brass life
Learn to anneal, and get a Hart case saver for loose primer pockets. Saves you a bunch of money in the long run.
Learn to anneal, and get a Hart case saver for loose primer pockets. Saves you a bunch of money in the long run.
Re: brass life
Someone mentioned seeing media leaking out of hollowpoint bullets. I have seen such in Sierra Matchkings many times.
At one time Sierra sold 1000 bullet bulk boxes and bullets were not cleaned and still had forming lube on them. I still have the whole box and never got around to loading them.
Someone mentioned seeing media leaking out of hollowpoint bullets. I have seen such in Sierra Matchkings many times.
At one time Sierra sold 1000 bullet bulk boxes and bullets were not cleaned and still had forming lube on them. I still have the whole box and never got around to loading them.
