Builders vs. Assemblers

[Sean the Nailer]

I'm just wondering who-all actually designs, makes, builds, machines, extrudes, or casts, their own items and components for their AR10 rifles? There are so many brands out there, of which you can 'buy this and that' and mount it/them 'here or there' but I'm curious as to who actually makes their own.

I mean, really, who has actually fab'ed out their own components either out of need, necessity, or just plain ingenuity? I'm not talking about "to sell" or compete in any way. That would be infringement. I'm talking about "for your own use, due to one reason or another".

Access and availability are two definite reasons, just to start that off.

There are many many versions of so very many components out there. And I'm sure more than a lot of you have thought "if only this (x) had "such-n-such" like "that" one does, then it'd work better". Each company has their own designs, patterns, patents, copyrights and whatnot. I get that, and am not trying to even think of imposing on such.

But necessity being the mother of invention and all,,,, who has just "actually built what they've wanted"?

I, myself, am wanting to build a charging handle, forend, gas block, and turn down a barrel for my Armalite. What'cha got?

While there are many excellent companies out there, who offer some great products,,,, that is not to say that some of these things can't be done by ourselves. I'm looking for those who have, or are planning to.

 

[bustin]

I'm just wondering who-all actually designs, makes, builds, machines, extrudes, or casts, their own items and components for their AR10 rifles? There are so many brands out there, of which you can 'buy this and that' and mount it/them 'here or there' but I'm curious as to who actually makes their own.

I mean, really, who has actually fab'ed out their own components either out of need, necessity, or just plain ingenuity? I'm not talking about "to sell" or compete in any way. That would be infringement. I'm talking about "for your own use, due to one reason or another".

Access and availability are two definite reasons, just to start that off.

There are many many versions of so very many components out there. And I'm sure more than a lot of you have thought "if only this (x) had "such-n-such" like "that" one does, then it'd work better". Each company has their own designs, patterns, patents, copyrights and whatnot. I get that, and am not trying to even think of imposing on such.

But necessity being the mother of invention and all,,,, who has just "actually built what they've wanted"?

I, myself, am wanting to build a charging handle, forend, gas block, and turn down a barrel for my Armalite. What'cha got?

While there are many excellent companies out there, who offer some great products,,,, that is not to say that some of these things can't be done by ourselves. I'm looking for those who have, or are planning to.

Some may be able to do that on man mills and lathes with digital readout but that would be a huge pain. Then building fixtures to hold pieces and buying special tooling to make 1 or 2 parts. Some parts take mill and lathe ops. The CNCs we use run $125K ea before tooling. I started machining parts because the industry could not supply me with the parts I needed, now it's a full time business making more than I ever thought about being a supt of large scale commercial const. They couldn't supply bolts so we started machining them. No one made barrels like I wanted them so I designed what I wanted and contract them out. They can't supply carriers so nw we are machining them. We add more parts every year. There are a few websites that cater to the hobby machinist. check this one- Register at Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web

 

[fd-defense]

This is probably not the exact reference you are seeking, but I will provide my timeline of product development here:

I purchased several Ar10's in 2007/2008 and was not happy with any of them; features, functionality, style, accuracy, you name it...
So I designed for myself the FD308 through the course of a few months in 2008.
I already had a small CNC mill in my garage, so I started machining all the components myself... ALL the components.
The only thing standard I had was the stock, trigger, grip, magazine and a few pins, screws, and such in common with other AR's.
This, of course, was while working as a manufacturing engineer at a full time job across town, 26 years old.
Anyways, 18 months later and about $75k spent and another $100k in debt, I had built three FD308's and scrapped about 15 sets on the way.

The natural result of that was to start a company around the rifle, and so far three different patents applications filed.
5 years later, and even with an exploding industry, it is still difficult to keep up with demand and also serve as "full-manufacturer" of these rifles.

As you have indicated in your post, "Assembling" and "Fabricating" are two entirely different worlds apart.
One requires almost no upfront investment, while the other requires extensive manufacturing experience, massive amounts of tooling/equipment costs, hundreds if not thousands of hours of development and machining time, and a risk factor that can financially devastate a "working-class" individual. I was oh-so-lucky to keep my initial investment below $200k. If it were rather a properly funded company from the get-go, such a venture would normally require around $1.5 million to develop the FD308 and at least another million to develop the FD338.

While the guy down the road assembling components really does not have the risk of a new design, he also does not have to fabricate anything, house and maintain the required machines, nor develop the design and machining skill level over the course of a decade+ in order to produce something unique. I will not go out to say that one method will return a greater profit or have a higher throughput than the other. Often, the "assemblers" of the industry end up way ahead of the "fabricators". But the assembler has far less control of their innovation capabilities and quality. It is very hard to make a design change to something you are not producing yourself.

Now to address your question in point, the parts you are wanting to build as identified above are not necessarily difficult (with the right equipment).
What I would suggest is that you go visit several different local CNC jobshops and pick one or two out to form a relationship with.
If you find a good group of guys, they should be able to guide you on the most time & cost efficient way to get your projects completed.
This would typically involve you coming up with the design and good manufacturing prints, and then letting them make the parts on their time.
The first thing you will learn about manufacturing a new product: if it costs $1000 to make 10 parts, it will cost $800 to make 1 part.

All of the above started as necessity or desire to produce a few high-end rifles for myself.
Normally and logically a person would give up after dumping the first $5000 without any end in sight.
With that goal and investment, what was intended to be a personal project developed into a business as a necessity to recoup what was lost.

I must say that you producing these parts on your own will probably end up providing the same result, a business.
If you follow through, you will have invested too much time and money into it not to create a business.
If your ideas pan out and you end up having a great (or even interesting) product, your natural tendencies will force you to [at least] try and make a business from it.
And you should not resist those tendencies.

On your assumption of "infringement"... there is no infringement if your product is not violating an active patent (i.e. one from less than 20 years ago).
Moreover, most infringement cases fail to prove novelty/unobviousness, therefore a large percentage of these patents are null in the first place and never succeed in prosecution.
In regards to trademark/copyright... simply do not market your products in a manner that could confuse customers as to the origin/manufacturer of the product.
In other words don't represent your products as if they are your competitors.
Infringement is a rare issue, and if you so much as attempt to be original, you will be ok.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

With my memory issues, I obviously had totally forgotten to add, and/or substantiate my position. I worked as a machinist for some years, before going through the apprenticeship program to become a Millwright. We here also have access to both Lathe and a Mill. Both are manual.

Considering my situation, I am not thinking of business or anything at this moment. As such, I am trying to simply gain some of my old abilities back due to various health reasons.

But in the end of it all, I have some needs for parts that are not only made out of 'unobtanium' (apparently) but also have to deal with the lack of shipping as I live here in Canada.

I have no interest whatsoever in developing Kryton switches or anything like that. Nor am I attempting to outfit any rogue militias with any ill intentions. Everything I am interested in doing here is perfectly legal. Yet the idea seems so 'out of touch with reality' in our culture.

What I found so very frustrating, is when I was breaching the topic with most of the members of the last F-Class comp I attended, I got looked at like I had 3 heads. Not one single person there had even a guess of an inkling on how to proceed. All of their bolt rifles were outfitted by one smith or another, with all the components purchased using one Visa Highway or another. It totally appeared that if it couldn't be bought, then it couldn't be done.

And I have a problem with that.

Hence, my quest.

 

[hlee]

You were talking to the wrong people. Talk to their smiths...

 

[jevan126]

JP Enterprise did their rifle from scratch. What I mean by that is they took everything that was wrong with the mil-spec AR and made it work. Everything on their rifles are Proprietary to John Paul. I have a JP LRP-07 and would not sell it even for twice what I paid.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

http://http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/ Sionics is another manufacturer who makes as many of their parts as possible in house. Of those parts that are made by the various machine shops for the entire industry, Sionics uses them but has those parts built to their specific specs and tolerances. So what they end up making is a factory priced gun that has the build quality of a custom made gun. They are IMO one of the best kept secrets in the AR market. Being a Noveske guy, I was skeptical but after handling a Sionics, I am sold. Like the OP, the owner of Sionics set out to make parts for himself and similar to the other story above, it turned into a business.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Whilst I am still searching, as well as checking out the Machinist link offered above, does anyone here have any drawings/plans/projects that they'd like to share?

And to be clear here, I am pretty-much referring to "basic" component design. 20+ year old designs and whatnot. I'm not asking for the proprietary blueprints of the "latest-and-greatest-flavor-of-the-week" Picatinny Rail Espresso-machine type of thing. (hoping that you see the intended humor there....)

It is up to "us" to make things, let along make them "better" right? At least in our own eyes.

 

[CanPopper]

I believe the list you are looking for is:

JP Rifles
Mega
Precision Reflex
Seekins Precision (or will soon)
DPMS
Armalite (?)
Bushmaster

 

[rukwikenuf]

Armalite (?)

uh.. yeah. they're the proprietor of the AR-10. well, the OLD Armalite anyway

 

[rukwikenuf]

and while i haven't done anything AR10 specific, i've made a few muzzle brakes, i designed up a trigger guard for AR15's and had 20 of 'em cut by a local waterjet company (then i decided to all but scrap 'em in favor or lowers with built in trigger guards, so i gave em away), and i made my own scope rings (they were garbage, so i bought some). i also made a light mount.

i've made a few motorcycle parts, triple trees, axles, foot pegs, brackets, etc

btw, i'm a student at a tech school, and i worked for a year at a prototype shop. i barely know what to do, i'm one step above someone who knows NOTHING about manufacturing.

 

[swamp2]

Another important, probably even more important distinction here is who does largely original designs vs. simply recycling Armalite or standard milspec designs. It is perfectly acceptable to job out all of ones machining as long as a suitable balance between cost, delivery time and quality can be achieved. Many will probably argue that those combined goals simply cannot be met without doing some significant majority of the actual part level production fully in house. Either way it is original designs that, in my opinion, largely separates the wheat from the chaff. This is where the innovation occurs. There are certainly other required factors including, material selection, coatings, heat treatment, testing, and a plethora of others that go into making a high quality product, however, all of those are ultimately part of "design".

You can certainly add Primary Weapon Systems to the list of builders who have a great deal of original design along with some significant in house machining. Primary Weapons Systems - PWS . They do their own uppers, lowers, bolts, bolt carriers, buffer tubes, gas piston system, compensators and rails (probably along with many other small parts).

The list above by CanPopper is very incomplete...

 

[rukwikenuf]

You can certainly add Primary Weapon Systems to the list of builders who have a great deal of original design along with some significant in house machining. Primary Weapons Systems - PWS . They do their own uppers, lowers, bolts, bolt carriers, buffer tubes, gas piston system, compensators and rails (probably along with many other small parts).

and if i could say so, they have some pretty original ideas as well. i'm a big fan of their CQB Comp. it's bulky, but it's very effective. and easy to clean!!! if it were a LITTLE bit smaller, i'd have one on the latest rendition of one of my rifles