Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

[George Collins]

I am building a house. Currently, we only have the perimeter walls of the basement in place. The dimensions are approximately 20' x 20'. A wall will be added to create a room 20' long x 7 feet wide. That room will be subdivided into rooms of 12 feet long by 7 feet wide and 8 feet long by 7 feet wide. The longer of the two rooms is designated as "the safe room" and the shorter is "the armory." As we are still in the conceptual phase of the construction we are not locked into these room sizes and are open to suggestion. However, my main inquiry relates to doors.

If you were building a house and were going to build a safe room and/or a gun safe into the structure of the house, what types of doors/locks would you use?

Are there any other aspects of constructing these types of rooms that I need to be aware of?

Are there any other things that would be on your wish list for these types of rooms that needs to be considered/addressed during the construction phase?

 

[Raabe]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

Probably something along these lines. Security Door
Vault Door

 

[msiebert]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

Dont forget ventilation, plenty of re-bar in the walls and plenty of light inside. I have a hidden phone in mine so if someone gets locked in accidently or otherwise they can call out for help. The line is hidden on the outside so it cannot be cut should someone rob me and make me get in so they can get away. Also remember that 16 inch thick poured concrete walls take about 4 or 5 months to really dry out. During this time you will need to run a dehumidifier or you will get mold. No guns can be stored until you get it stabilized. If you dont build it with thick walls some animal with a sledge hammer will knock a hole in the side and help himself. You really dont want the safe room visible/recognizable to visitors...word will get out that you have a safe in your basement and inside there is 100 million dollars cash, making you a target. The doors above will do fine, mine is similar.

 

[chainring]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

Yep, vault or safe doors with cinderblock walls at minimum. Rebar and concrete if you really want to stop a concerted effort. Studs, metal roofing screwed to the studs, and sheetrock screwed over that if you really aren't too worried, with a commercial fire-rated door, and you've got a fairly secure room on a budget. Those are pretty small dimensions, but would be fine for a safe room and gun storage - no work area, though. Presumably the rest of the basement is your tinkering/reloading, etc. area.

I've heard that you might want to hinge the door to swing into the safe room, so you can't be barricaded/trapped into your own hiding spot.

Don't use the same breaker and phone line as the rest of the basement.

Perhaps combine the armory and the safe room into one space? You would save a little on doors and linear feet of wall construction, and if you are headed for the safe room then you are probably headed for the armory too!

Just a thought.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

How is the ground soil in your area? Moisture? Also think about a good concrete sealent and drainage for a dehumidifier unless you don't mind emptying the pan.
A neet thought that a friend of mine did was have a hidden room. Basically a bookshelf that slid out of the way of the door to his closet on a track that I hadn't noticed. It was pretty neet!

 

[SouthFork]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

I would also run expanded steel in with the concrete, or at least LOTS of Rebar. Expanded steel would piss someone off pretty good, and it would be a major deterrent.

Expensive, but worth it in the long run.

 

[stefan73]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

You could cross hatch rebar and tac weld at the meeting points. That would be miserable if you ever sold the house and the new owner tried to open up a wall!

 

[Slowstang]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

I assume you already know but a normal type of concrete sealant will not work due to moisture coming up from the ground will actually lift the sealant off of the concrete. There are special kinds of sealant made for that application that is similar to a roofing tar. So in order to prevent moisture coming into the basement you basically need a sealant as well as a vapor barrier. Like I said, Im sure you have already done your research on this and planned accordingly, if not, I've just given you some questions to ask your general contractor. I do concrete work for a living and I'd recommend that your walls be around a foot thick with rebar reinforcement minimum as well as a large sized fiber mesh reinforcement. If you go to or call the concrete company they have charts or samples of the fiber mesh reinforcement and I would choose a large size/steel type reinforcement for the fiber mesh in addition to the rebar. We tear out concrete and replace it all the time. It would take me under a minute to get through a 5 inch wall even if reinforced with rebar. The tighter the grid of rebar the more secure it will be. I'd go with something like 1/2 inch rebar 1 foot on center.

 

[CANAVAR]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

A vault door for the main door (open inwards). A seperate door for the armory. Depending on your situation ... nanny, kids etc. you want them to have access to the safe room when you're not there but not necessarily to your weapons.

 

[motodog]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

i just plumbed in a bathroom for a fellow in his 60by80 shop and he has a huge vault in there its like 18by18 or so and is full concrete with expanded metal in the walls and floor and ceiling.the walls are about 10 inches thick.this thing is a tank.

 

[George Collins]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

Thank you all very much for your advice. I let the owner of the house (my wife) read all of your posts and we have acted on the collective wisdom y'all have provided. We moved the room from the western wall to the northern. We have taken out one of the doors and made one big room. That room has been expanded by a foot in width so that now it is 20' x 8'. The door, which has already been installed, swings inward, is of the general type recommended and will be hidden behind a book shelf. The walls are all reenforced with rebar, sealed with dry-lok, etc. Unless we learn some specific reason that our basement is an exception, we intend on purchasing a dehumidifier long before any guns will be stored.

Again, thanks everyone! This is what I love about the internet: the wisdom of the ages is at one'a fingertips.

If I knew how to get a picture to post from iPhoto to here, I would share a picture but alas, I ain't that good.

 

[Dirty D]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

There are plenty of videos on Youtube on how to break into a safe, watch as many of them as you can and pay attention. The first thing that I learned is that the easiest way to attack a safe is to push it onto its back and then go after the lock side of the door with prybars so when you install your safe BOLT IT DOWN with 6-8 concrete anchors and bolt it down with the lock side of the door in a corner where BG's have no room to maneuver prybars. Also the less people that know it is there then the less likely that someone will come after it.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Training Wheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are plenty of videos on Youtube on how to break into a safe,............ </div></div>

So, did you read any of this thread before you posted in it?

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

My primary concern with secure firearm storage is fire. My Brother had a house fire and all his guns were damaged, written off as total loss by the insurance carrier.

The fire itself was quick, more like a flash fire, occurring while the house was unattended following a police ordered mandatory storm evacuation. Threats come in all shapes and sizes, and it's always the one you never expect that actually strikes.

For fire, the key is to outlast the fire. Many safe manufacturers accomplish this by filling the space between inner/outer walls with drywall panelling. This can be emulated by using construction that employs metal studs and multilayer drywall.

For security purposes, this can be reinforced by using fiberglass mat drywall as part or all of this layering, does not require concrete, block, mortar, or rebar; and can be accomplished by the intrepid home handyman without any specialized skills (i.e masonry, etc.). Fiberglass mat drywall and greenwall (water resistant drywall, typically used in bathrooms, etc.) can be used as moisture barriers, as well, but interspersed wraps with Tyvek vapor barrier house wrap also works.

Note that concealed swing door/walls can get betrayed by evidence on the floor and by air currents, so seal the entry against air infiltration (you'd do this for fire protection anyway), and keep the floor in the general entry area clean and avoid obvious giveaways.

Locks and doors are not my forte, but again, time is the issue. Anything that delays a BG and/or betrays their presence in an earsplitting/strobelight fashion will discourage an attack. Battery backup power for alarms is not a bad touch. Any phone type notification of authorities should be cellular based, power and phone lines can be cut. Long periods of inattendance are not wise, might pay to have a friend invited over for some house sitting.

Greg

 

[Dirty D]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Training Wheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are plenty of videos on Youtube on how to break into a safe,............ </div></div>

So, did you read any of this thread before you posted in it? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TallahallaTarzan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are there any other aspects of constructing these types of rooms that I need to be aware of?

Are there any other things that would be on your wish list for these types of rooms that needs to be considered/addressed during the construction phase? </div></div>

Seems pretty straightforward but I'm all ears...

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Training Wheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Training Wheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are plenty of videos on Youtube on how to break into a safe,............ </div></div>

So, did you read any of this thread before you posted in it? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TallahallaTarzan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are there any other aspects of constructing these types of rooms that I need to be aware of?

Are there any other things that would be on your wish list for these types of rooms that needs to be considered/addressed during the construction phase? </div></div>

Seems pretty straightforward but I'm all ears...</div></div>

The OP is talking about a safe ROOM. not a floor mounted safe. Unless you are strong enough to push the house on its side.....

 

[Dirty D]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

Point taken.

 

[Derek Myers]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

I used to consult in saferooms etc. It sounds like you have a sound start and some great advice already. Two points you may wish to consider. Since you are on a "sniper" sight you need to not only consider cover, but concealment. If something bad happens your bset bet is to have your "hide" not found.

If you want to go with the basement room, going to 1 room is a perfect adjustment. The next stet is to build a "dummy room" in front of your actual safe room. It doesn't have to be wasted space-just make a small office or kids video room or something in the front and then have a hidden door/removal wall/bookcase that cover the entry to your saferoom. You can even attach the bookcase to the door-have the door knob come through the back of the book case cover the knob with specially carved out books and you are concealed.

Ventilation is key for the safe room---have a hidden vent that comes out at ground level at least 100ft away. put it in a flower bed concealed by bushes and covered by rebar laid in concrete.

Now I know you have a great start on your plan and may not want to change anything else. But in my experience the basement is not the best idea for multiple reasons.

If something happens it will usually be in the middle of the night.....basement is hard to get to and because very few homes have basement bedrooms but have daylight windows a basement is a preferred entry point. If you have kids and things go bump in the night they run to mom and dad.......not the basement. You may not have a chance to make the basement, but at least be ready to fight your way to the basement i.e. armed in your master bedroom. I honestly love the masterbedroom walk in closet. The hanging clothes or the wives shoe caddies cover the entry naturally. If your builder has the know how you can easily use bulk concrete above the lowest level in the home. If not I have had great success with 1/2 inch steel....you can go as small as a 1/4 inch if you cover the inner walls with ballistic flak sheets.

Also depending on your weather, water table etc.....a basement can be a constant source of dampness. Plus the number one way for bad guys to remove people from a saferoom that can't be breeched in the vent system. If you have a basement system your vent tube will have to run to an area where a badguy can tamper with it easily......if it comes out of your roof it looks like a normal piece of equipment and if some badguy is on your roof pumping smoke grnades down your ventilation system pretty good chance help will be on the way.

To be totally safe-plan for the worst. Not only have guns but food, water, meds and first aid supplies, gas masks, port a potty. You want to be able to stay in there until people miss you...assume the phone won't work or will be breached. Assume electronic alarms will be breached....rely on yourself and you and yours are GTG.

Derek

 

[Doc1911]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

http://www.hiddensafes.com/large.htm

 

[WOMBAT2879]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

tag

 

[Altimeter1]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

Just some thoughts. I have a vault built into my house. We built a closet in front of the door so that it is not obvious. Second thought is how do you hide the elephant in the room? I have seen vaults that were so obvious. The vault needs to run completly across one of the walls, to give the appearance of a wall not a goody box. Third, rebar will slow the bad guys down, hopfuly until help arrives. I typicaly put rebar every foot in the walls and 6 inches in the ceiling. The walls are 8 inches thick and the ceiling is 6. The other concern is the ceiling. When the walls have cured, I put a ledger in the forms and use that to create the stud wall ceiling. The lid is topped with plywood and tarpaper to create a "pan". The lid is then shored up like a mineshaft and the rebar is folded over and laced. No welding is required, just wire tie them together. The concrete is then slummed into the lid and allowed to cure. A one inch conduit through the lid is good enough for the electrical, alarm, and communications lines. If you have the ability to have a floor drain for the dehumidifier is a bonus. Also electrical baseboard heaters. Once the concrete work is done, there is a paint called "UGL" the is applied to the concrete. Over that a vapor barrior of plastic and firred out with 2x2 studs. Then fill the cavity with foam board insulation and vapor barrior again. Sheet rock and paint the walls. Also VCT tile the floor for increased vapor control. The typical vault in a home is 5-8 feet wide and 20 to 40 feet long. They look like a long hallway. Remember the concrete roof is very heavy and the short width makes it easier to support. Are they fireproof? Yes, the only thing standing in most house fires is the safe, and a vault is even better. Are they had to break into? Sure are, also if you have one or more walls that are below ground level, the attack is not comming from that direction unless the guy has a backhoe. The attack is comming from the ceiling or the door. In swing doors were not available when I built the last house, but they are going into the next project. Also as far as the ventilation it depends on the room size and how many occupants. If this is going to be a safe room, anticipate 4 hours until help arrives. Calculate the volume and plan accordingly. Also as far as the weapon storage, a cheap gun locker inside the vault is sufficiant as this point, we are just trying to keep the vault "kid safe" and also works for control if you have multiple key holders or combination owners. The last thing I will throw out there is most doors have a tremendous threshold (high)that you will have to cross. Not an easy thing for heavy items.

Best of luck on your venture.

 

[yknot]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

Guys, the house is only 20' x 20' to start with, I don't think this person is trying to build a bank vault, just a nice place to feel safe and perhaps safely store his weapons. I don't see this being anything extraordinary or elaborate. Personally I would pick the room with the corner being made of the concrete walls on two sides, this would be two strong walls to start with. On the remaining walls, I would up-grade to 2 x 6 framing and keep the spacing to 16' OC or 12" OC would be better. The ideal here is to make it as hard as possible to kick in, and by reducing the OC dimension to 12", this goes a long way. The floor plates on this room should be anchored to the concrete floor by mechanical steel anchors, nor concrete nails, and I would put an anchor every other stud. For walls, that's an interesting area, ideally you would put up bullet proof ceramic, but I don't get the feeling this is practical here. Instead I would use 3/4" plywood on both sides of the studs, and on top of that a layer of 7/8" or more, fire code drywall, at least for the outside covering, inside even better. This means two layers of 5/8" drywall, which for your small room walls, is nothing that would break the bank, but if you did go with the plywood inside and out, and the double 5/8" drywall inside and out, your safe room/vault would be a very safe place to hide, well protected by most handgun rounds and shotgun shells. ventilation would be needed, but that would not be hard to come up with, just don't make it obvious and accessible to those that wish you harm. Yes I would have a phone line installed, but it doesn't have to be a separate line, you can always make sure you keep your cell phone with you. This would also be a great place to store water and food, and don't forget a first aid kit. As far as doors go, I would go with a steel fire proof door, and a quality set of locking hardware. You can turn the door anyway you like, the two side both have their advantages and disadvantages. I would install several sliding locking bars, the type that mount to the door itself, and a bar slides into a receiver, like into the concrete floor itself, and around the top of the frame. This is also the perfect bad weather storm ceiler also. You do not have to spend a fortune if you think this out ahead of time, I can see this room coming in under $1000.00, compared to a normal built room, you just have to put the money in the right places. Good luck with your new house.

 

[OFIS]

Re: Building a House with Gun Safe - Have Questions

tag