Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

1

1872CG

Private
Minuteman
Jul 13, 2010
5
0
64
Virginia
#1
This is my first post here but I am a long time forum member on some other forums. I am here because I want your opinions on a build I am starting and I have a few delima's. The post will be long because I need to tell you a lot of info so you will know how to give a accurate opinion.

The build is going to be a 45 caliber smokeless muzzleloader. I already have my 45 cal no.7 contour Krieger barrel and had planned on going the cheap route with a Obendorf Mauser 98 action but I am concerned about receiver flex due to the thumb cut. Will a one piece Ken Ferrel 98 Mauser sight base stiffen a 98 receiver adaquetly???? I will be using a VX-III 4.5x14 LR 30mm scope for the build. This muzzleloader will be shooting a 250gr Parker Balistic Extreme bullet at approx. 2950fps using up to 78gr of IMR4198 with a 30 inch barrel. It should generate about 40-45 lbs of recoil.

So I have considered using a Remington receiver, a Sendora SS receiver to be exact to match my Krieger SS barrel. I will also try and use the same Sendora HS Pression stock with a added Limbsaver recoil pad.

What I mainly want your opinions on is the 700 Receiver. I don't want to spend the money to have it blue printed. If I will need to go that route I will just buy a custom receiver, maybe a Benard. How much does blue printing a 700 receiver shrink your groups? I know, what a question to ask becuase there are just to many variables. The goal I am trying to match with this build is 1 MOA or so we are on the same page a 4 inch group at 400 yards. The muzzleloader I am trying to copy/build on the cheap is spec'd at 4 MOA and is built on a BAT SV action but does it really need to be such a perfect action when there is no chamber???

The other question is about barrel wip. Will a 700 SA action receiver be stiff enough to handle the 30 inches of a No.7 contour Krieger barrel in free float?

I am also concerned about the recoil. The guy that builds these muzzleloaders puts them in heavy laminate thumbhole stocks. I am wondering how much cheak slap I am going to get with this HS Precision stock when I load this cannon full out? Maybe I should consider a thumbhole stock as well.

Anyway, I hope you have not lost interest by now and I would welcome all opinions.

Thanks, 1872CG
 
#3
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

Okay, your probably right. I am a member of Dougs boards and have discussed this build there before I ordered my barrel. I just thought by the name of this forum that you guys might have some experience with the need to or need not to blue print a remington action in order for it to shoot MOA out to 400-500 yards. I currently have one .308 Sendora that I just recieved this past weekend and it shot sub 3/4" at 100 yards with Ausi 7.62 Nato ball ammo. I can't wait to load some handload for it. I called Remington today to see if the Sendora receiver recieved any special tuning at the factory and he said NO so that makes me think it is a crap shoot if you need all that blue printing or not. Just free float the barrel, bed the action in a good stock and screw in a good barrel and most of the time you will have a MOA rifle.


1872CG
 
#4
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.


1872CG,

I am in the process of doing the same build on a Savage action. I have the same information and the instructional dvd.

Your setup will be fine. The receiver will take it and does not need to be trued due to the method of use - i.e. holding a shortened case that holds the primer. Truing does nothing to help this setup.

Dan
 
#5
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

Deadeye, have I seen you over on Doug's forum? Over there I am Smokepole.

MY SET-UP..........Are you refering to the Mauser 98 idea or the Sendora 700 action? I assume you mean the 700 action and that is probably the way I will have to go to keep a reasonable price.

I think the 98 Mauser might be stiff enough with a one piece Ken Ferrel base but the control feed extractor is a issue. The bolt would need to be removed every time to remove the case and reprime the rifle. As well, in a rushed second shot senerio the case might just slip down while sliding the bolt in and not line up perfect with the nipple. A flash burned nipple while out hunting would ruin your hole hunting day. I have read about someone putting a Savage bolt head on a mauser bolt body in order to get a different extractor, how hard would that be?

So do you think the Savage extractor is going to work well with rotating the short case in and out of the bolt face while still in the action?

Richard's shop is not far from me. I wish I could get him to do the breech plug for me but he is to busy with complete rifle orders to do much more then give advice. I did get to shoot his personal rifle, sweet! I may have to consider one of Greg's thumbhole stocks though. Greg and I graduated in the same class and he took over Richard's stock business, now he has his own custom bench rest rifle business as well.

1872CG
 
#6
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

"The goal I am trying to match with this build is 4 MOA or so we are on the same page a 4 inch group at 400 yards."

Quick heads up:
4" group at 400 yards would be 1 MOA.
Small sure, but doable without blueprinting. Another thing would be how much extra would it cost since you will already be rebarreling. Might not be much as it is already apart.
Chad
 
#7
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

Sure Chad, I guess you are right. 1 MOA or one a inch group at 100 yards would be a 4 inch group at 400 yards with no wind.

A as far as blue printing goes I have developed the opinion from reading on the web that it is money better spent just buying a custom action that does not need blue printing if you need that level of accuracy in your build. At sale time it is hard to prove to a buyer that the 700 action has had anything done to it, you can't see blue printing but you can see the words BAT or Barnard or who ever you chose to make you perfect receiver. If you figure $400-500 for your donor action and another $300-400 dollars blue printing expense then why not just buy a custom for $950-1100.

1872CG
 
#8
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

All that you are going to need to do is have the face of the action trued and maybe have the threads recut. Make sure to get a new recoil lug that has been surface ground true. The alignment of your primer case is not going to affect anything in the way it is set up.

Just make sure that whomever is doing the barrel work knows what they are doing. You can have a very good barrel, but if the smith does not know how to cut a chamber, it will shoot like crap.
 
#10
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

I would use a stiller , the Bat is to much $$ for a ML and you don't need those kind of tolerences on a ML
My Bad Bull use a Remington XR-100 single shot and I switch the thumbhole out to a Holland stock, Shit on a thumbhole for hunting
My Bad Bull burns 140gr of IMR-4350 and pushes a 275 gr @ 3200 FPS and I have shot several 1.5- 2 inch groups at 300 yards out of a 27 inch barrel,
My longest kill to date is 438 yards on a whitetail
You have a very nice looking ML , you need to figure out a way to use a federal 215 primer that you can extract like the 209, I have to knock my federal 215 out with a push rod and that sucks. Good luck
 
#11
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

Not to hijack but as there seems to be a wealth of longrange muzzleloading knowledge here I figured I would ask. Is the Parker ballistic extreme bullet and the fury bullet( they look the same)The longrange bullets of choice? I have a coues deer hunt coming up and while I don't want to push it beyond reason I do want the most accurate bullet that will perform better than a pistol bullet. It's in NM so no smokeless but I'd love to have an Ultimate Muzzleloader, I'm just usingn a Omega with either BH209 or Triple 7 depending on accuracy. Smokeeter those are awesome rifles! Again I hope I don't hijack but I'd love to hear what everyone's opinion! Thanks
 
#12
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

Parker has a new bullet in .45 cal that they are still testing, it is a 325 grain with a machined alum. tip that has a bc of .450
they shot it yesterday and its running around .68 moa @ 100y, don't know if they will get it out by this years hunting season but they are trying.
I have very good results with accuracy and terminal performace with there .275gr .45cal
ML bullets are like shooting a slug gun or a .22cal rifle , you need to try several different brands of ammo until you find one your gun likes but i would give parker a try if I were you
 
#13
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CHEYTAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You have a very nice looking ML , you need to figure out a way to use a federal 215 primer that you can extract like the 209, </div></div>

Why do you feel I need to use the 215 primer over the 209? I'm curious because I like the ease/convenience of the 209 over a primed case. The 209 has more than enough power to ignite any load and with this setup primer crud ring is elimiated.
The temporary misfires I was refering to were a result of bullet fit.A 215 primed gun wouldn't fire with a loose fitting bullet either.
 
#14
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

The 215 is a much more consistent primer than a 209 , while the 209 will ignite x amount of rifle powder , the 215 will give much better accuracy, but I am by no means a primer gooru and you may have more knowledge than I as I got my primer info out of reading precision shooting magazines for 25 yrs.
I did not suggest using the 215 because of misfires that you were having.
I too believe that the primed cases are just something else that you have to keep in your pocket along with the other components needed to reload a ML.
I was not trying to hijack your thread with my suggestion
Good luck with your rifle
 
#15
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

It's not my thread to hijack, so I appologize for hijacking the thread also, but sometimes this is the way most information is conveyed and I believe that's what <span style="font-weight: bold">1872CG</span> was looking for.
I too have some experience with reloading and primers and shooting but this application of smokeless muzzleloading is somewhat unique and sometimes the rules don't always apply. If we were dealing with black powder or other BP substitues the primer may not be as critical because of their ease of ignition but smokeless is a whole other challange. Sure there are primers which are designed and used for smokeless in cartridges , but they don't have a long flame channel as with the breechplug in a muzzleloader application so a good reliable ignition source is required.
With the breechplug and it's flame channel and a specifically controlled vent or orifice size the flame from a 209 primer is forced to be more consistent/controlled, while still providing adequate flame for complete ignition regardless of powder used. The real challange to overcome with the use of 209 primers was the dreaded crud ring and that has be taken care of with the design of the bolt nose and breech plug used for these rifles.
I am by no means putting down the system you are using and have looked at many different designs and applications prior to coming up with the one we have in place.I just wanted an effective,reliable,convenient system. And so far the 209's are footing the bill.
 
#17
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

I, along w/ Cheytac, had a Bad Bull. Roger had changed diameter of the barrels to an even heavier one when I got mine. I used it for 2 seasons, killed a doe @ 306 yds and a nice buck last season. I had a chance by trading and selling the trade, to sell mine for $ 4400, i.e., no brainer! Never liked the weight and that awful thumb hole stock for stand hunting. I'm interested in what you are doing w/ your Bad Boy II. Accuracy, ignition w/ the 209 primer, etc. My family, who has lived in Salem, Va. for 32 years, recently moved. My nephew still lives in Roanoke. Melvin and Ken Shrewsberry are friends of mine. Both had never seen a muzzle brake until I showed them one on a Jarrett Beanfield rifle I had @ the time. I'm familiar w/ Richard's business in that area, and Glen Nester(Christiansburg) was a friend of mine. My card in his Rolodex had "rifle nut" on it written by him. I have no problem w/ a FTF @ your facility sometimes, if possible. Up that way fairly often. Like I say, very interested. Thanks, Bob
 
#18
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

Well mine blew up tonight stock came apart and the Barrel split in 3 pieces I was just lucky to be alive Email me will send pictures if you would like to see the barrel and stock of my bad bull muzzel loader
 
#19
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

Please post pics of this failure..


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: crawdad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well mine blew up tonight stock came apart and the Barrel split in 3 pieces I was just lucky to be alive Email me will send pictures if you would like to see the barrel and stock of my bad bull muzzel loader </div></div>
 
#20
Re: Building a Smokeless Muzzleloader on a 700 Rem.

Let me make life a whole lot easy for you:
http://www.dsscustomguns.com/

Mine built on the pro-hunter version does 1 MOA at 525 yards
the other built on a Rem 700 does .65 MOA at 525 yards
I have had a BAD BULL , a Richard Frankin built ML and now one by dsscustomguns. I am not a expert but I would be happy to share my endevors
 
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