Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

[Jeremybj]

Hey guys,

Built a 223 target gun with a friend of mine. The bullets we are shooting are 80 grain a max. We have a compressed load of 25 grains of Varget under that 80 grain a max and we are getting weird bullet deformaties.

The polymer tip is being moved to one side and the copper part of the bullet is getting indentations.

I am guessing it has something to do with the die putting too much pressure on it or something and causing damage to the bullet. We are using a Lee Deluxe 223 die set.

When we back the load off to 24.6, the damage disappears.

Do we need to get a set of compitition dies or is it just not possible to do because of the length of the bullet and the amount of compression?

Here are a photo of what we are seeing.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[SIG700]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

Have you tried playing with your C.O.A.L? Or are you right at the edge of your lands already?

 

[JByrd]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

If your seating is that tight your never even gonna get close to a consistent seating depth.. you might as well get ready to back the powder down.ladder it,load the nodes high or low pick one and run with it

 

[Jeremybj]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

We are at max COAL, it is 5 thousands off lands.

Covert, we did see where we would have to repress the bullet to get the seating depth to where it is in the lower charge rounds....

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

A competition die contacts the bullet further down on the ogive but still leaves a ring on a compressed load. I suspect there isn't much support on the tip except for the jacket that far up. A competition seater may keep the tip in place but you'll still have a ring around the bullet. The ring doesn't hurt anything just is visible. If I had some amax's I'd see what my Redding dies do to them.

You might be able to lap the seater and get the contact point further down the bullet.

 

[kd185]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

might want to try a different seating die

 

[X-fan]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

Just need to get a different seating stem.
Get one for VLD bullets.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

what he said^

I have had that problem with 223 Ackley and 55 VMax seating with a Wilson chamber type seater. It's concentric and consistent and the ring was slight but visible. I have been told it is worse with the AMax? The answer is a VLD seater stem. BB

edit: by the way. Your load of 25 grains of varget and an 80 grain bullet is a <span style="text-decoration: underline">lot hotter</span> than my "Improved" load, 24.5 grains and a 55 grain bullet. Laupa cases. Are you sure?

 

[Jeremybj]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

I know it is hot, and at this point we are laddering up to that starting at 24 grains, so if it gets too hot we will stop early.

You mention the wilson die, would the Forster compitition seating die work also or would you strictly recommend the Wilson?

 

[CS95]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

It has very little if anything to do with your load. Like has already been said, it is the seating stem you are using.

If using Hornady dies, they make a special seating stem for the AMAX bullets.

If using a forster you can send some bullets and your seating stem to them and they will modify it to work.

If Redding, they make a VLD stem that will work.

 

[Jeremybj]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

Well I see hornady makes that stem like you said but some people say it doesn't do any good. Anyone used one of the a max stems before?

 

[Jeremybj]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

I see the redding one is a nice option also but I have 2 questions about the redding. Do I get the standard tip redding stem or do I get the one for vld bullets? Second is the 1/2 x 20 threads the redding uses the same as what my lee seating die has or would I have to buy a new seating die?

 

[Jeffvn]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

Try this. Get a 6" drop tube funnel then drop your load. I can and do run a 105% compressed load in my 7WSM (according to quickload it is 105%)... but it drops clean and without any crunch when dropped through a 6" funnel.

If that does not help, then after dropping through the 6" funnel, cap the brass with your finger and then hold the case firmly and place the bottom edge of the brass up against the top edge of your vibratory tumbler when its turned on. I was doing some max pressure testing for some prototype solids and needed to try to seat a 110% compressed load in my 7WSM (according to quickload it was 110%)... the combination of 6" funnel and tumbler gave me the room to seat the bullets with only a light compression of the powder.

Jeffvn

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

"When we back the load off to 24.6, the damage disappears."

There's a clue in that; back off or get a faster burning powder.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"When we back the load off to 24.6, the damage disappears."

There's a clue in that; back off or get a faster burning powder. </div></div>

This....'specially the faster powder part.

Never found much gain in compressed loads that was worth the bother.

I avoid the situation like the plague, and strive for 95 to 98 percent load density with my seating depth.

No powder crunch for me, it can change the burn characteristics of the kernals......

 

[gvanhyning]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

I would abandon Varget and look at IMR 8208 XBR. It is faster and will require less charge and has excellent temperature range. It will give you a chance to push hard without a compressed load. Good luck.

 

[bmk]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

I think you are going to see pressure signs well before getting up to 25 grains with an 80 grain bullet, so I would hold off on ordering a new seating stem.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

That's what I was trying to tell him, above. His load seems.....hot, if you ask me? And, I have tapped a lot of cases to settle the powder to avoid the crunch. However, you can only do so much with Varget in a 223 case.

But, if he persists. The question about the Wilson chamber seating die. I think you would have to send the whole die because it would probably need a larger diameter seating stem and the top of the body would need to be drilled. That is the advantage of the wilson, it's not hardened and can be modified. I had a 220Swift die altered to 22/243Middlested using the same reamer as used on my barrel. BB

 

[Xcount]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

Depending on what chamber is used, the pictured bullet looks awfully short to me, I would guarantee the load is over pressure spec by quite a bit. The Amax80 usually works best at .020 off the lands but by the looks of that round it seems the chamber is too short to effectively run a 80 Amax. My rounds run in a Wylde chambered service rifle are definitely longer. Also if the rifle doesn't have a true 8 twist or faster, the 80 will never shoot well.

The extra half grain is not going to give the shooter anything but trouble over time. One little mistake at the loading bench and he will learn an expensive lesson.
He should probably just get a 308 instead of trying to overload the 223.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

Xcount brings up a good question. When you say max length, do you mean magazine legth or to the lands? I know a 75 grain Amax is to long for mag length, I'd think an 80 is also.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

I just reread the original post. I don't think these rounds have yet been fired, nor should they, especially with the damaged and deformed tips.

How did these guys come up with the loading data? Is there someplace that claims 25 grains of Varget is okay with an 80 grain AMax? What brand of brass is used, BTW? BB

 

[aloreman]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

My 80s are way longer than that and im only using 23.9 gr of varget

 

[CanSniper]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just reread the original post. I don't think these rounds have yet been fired, nor should they, especially with the damaged and deformed tips.

How did these guys come up with the loading data? Is there someplace that claims 25 grains of Varget is okay with an 80 grain AMax? What brand of brass is used, BTW? BB </div></div> They got it straight from Hodgdons web site it is listed max load.

 

[Jeremybj]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

Well here is the new plan,

We are gonna back the charge off to 23.5 and see what kind of velocities we are getting, the 25 does seem a little over the top, but that is what the latest lymann book said, so assumed it was ok, but we did have a ladder loaded from 24-25 grains in .2 grain increments, so if it went south before we hit max, we planned on stopping.When I say max length, it is based off lands, so we are as far as we can go without pretty much being in the lands.

We are gonna pull all the damaged bullets and toss them, no reason to ruin a brand new barrel over a couple bucks.

I like the idea of a different powder and might have to give it a try..... Also looking at the 75 a max as an option.

I ended up ordering the Redding VLD seating stem/micrometer but it will be nice to have no matter the circumstance.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

COAL from Hornady is 2.390 inches, same as the 75's. You should be good ther if you are out to the lands. The Hornady data I have has 23.8 grains of Varget as a max load estimates 2600 fps.

 

[Kinsman]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

No need to toss the bullets. Won't hurt the barrel. Load them light and sail them down range.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

Okay look. Let's get down to basics. Everybody should know by now that any max load is completely theoretical. I don't care what the website says, that doesn't mean the load is perfectly safe in every rifle and it should be approached with respect. BB

PS, toss the bullets, how in the hell are you going to shoot a ladder test with damaged bullets?

 

[former naval person]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

Make a custom cavity for your bullet. Seat a couple of bullets in sized but empty cases at a slightly shorter OAL and screen them for runout...pick the case and bullet with as close to zero runout as you can. Clean out the seating stem and drill it deeper in the center. With the stem out of the die, lube the inside of the die and the outside of the stem with paste wax. Coat the bullet and case with paste wax also. Run the case and bullet into the die with the ram. Fill the tip of the stem with epoxy. Screw the stem into the die until it just touches the bullet. Allow the epoxy to set, then dissemble the die and clean it up. You'll have as close to perfect for that bullet as possible. JMHO

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

"...the 25 does seem a little over the top, but that is what the latest lymann book said, so assumed it was ok"

That is NOT a safe assumption and every manual printed says so.

 

[discrota]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

Another thing to watch for with loads that are highly compressed is bullet creep.

It can happen if you anneal your brass, use new softer brass, use moly powder or reduce neck tension or friction in any way.

I have seen bullets creep .005 or more out of the case after sitting around awhile causing different OAL's, higher pressure, and shit accuracy

 

[ehparis]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

Your seating stem is not adopted to the shape of the point of the bullet. It obviously doesn't happen if you back off on the powder a bit so why not just back off a little?

 

[Clark]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

In compressed 9mm loads, the bullet will squish.
So I put a pin gauge in a collet bullet puller die and pre compress the powder.

As stated above, sometimes the shape of the seater does not match the shape of the bullet. Epoxy can be used to make them match.

223 is registered with SAMMI at 55 kpsi, but works better in bolt guns and neck sizing at 75kpsi. Quickload thinks you are already there. I am surprised Lyman went extra SAAMI.

 

[Xcount]

Re: Bullet damaged when loading a compressed load

I knew there was dissinformation going here. The Hodgdon site shows a load for 80 SMK not a 80 amax. that's number one. number two is it shows a OAL of 2.55!! So people need to stop saying the OP is running something right out of a factory book.

the round shown is nowhere near that length. Jeremybj, care to post what the OAL is on the pictured round?? Differences in OAL actually makes a big difference in pressure, plus as someone mentioned as powder is compressed it can push the bullet back out. So just think if this round had pushed the bullet into the lands and he shot it!!!!!

If any part of your reloading components are different than what a book uses to make their load, then people should take that serious and download significantly.

My recommendation is that if your chamber is as short as that pictured round shows I would try and build a load with Alliant 2000mr to try and get some safe pressured velocity out of the rifle. That stuff is great in a boltgun, not so much in a gasgun.