Bullet Lots Question

[rickp]

Hey guys, quick question on bullet batch, or lot.
I just opened another box of my 175 SMK and when I went to measure the OAL of the round to the ogive I noticed a .030 difference in the new lot from the old lot, how will this affect the load?
I know I should have purchased the bullets in a larger lot but at the time 100 round boxes was all that was available.

Thanks

 

[High Binder]

.030 at the ogive is a lot. Are you sure it/s really a difference of 30 thou? If it really is I would contact Sierra and ask them WTF. .003 I could understand but .030 is way to much. Double check that the pills are in fact the same weight and are both SMKs, I have a really hard time believing Sierra would let pills go out that far out of spec. Also are you sure you're measuring from the base to the Ogive and not from the base to the tip (OAL)?

 

[rickp]

.030 at the ogive is a lot. Are you sure it/s really a difference of 30 thou? If it really is I would contact Sierra and ask them WTF. .003 I could understand but .030 is way to much. Double check that the pills are in fact the same weight and are both SMKs, I have a really hard time believing Sierra would let pills go out that far out of spec. Also are you sure you're measuring from the base to the Ogive and not from the base to the tip (OAL)?

Hey High Binder, thanks for the reply. Let me start out by saying I'm no Einstein with math but unless I'm having a REAL "You're THAT GUY" moment, I think I'm measuring this right.
I checked the weight and everything else I can think off.
I'm using a Hornady comparator and insert with my micrometer to measure the rounds to the ogive. The old lot are (and I'm down to my last 50 loaded rounds of them) are on average 3.167, the new lot measure 3.187 so that's about .20 thou off on average, not .30 thou my bad there, but still way off IMO.
I got the new lot about 8 months to a year after the old lot, so I'm not sure if that would play into the difference, but regardless the difference is still there. I checked the other 2 boxes of 100 rnds and they are consistent, so the issue it's just my old lot compared to these 300 new rnds I have.
All things being equal, how would this affect the load, if at all? BTW, OAL to the meplat is right at 2.8 + or - a thou just due to the typical uneven tips.

I'm planning on calling Hornady tomorrow just to see what they have to say. I also just ordered another lot of 500 175gr SMK so I'm curious to see what they measure at. Also, I haven't shot these new rounds yet.

Again thanks.

 

[Twoboxer]

OK, I'm confused lol. When you say the new lot of 175gr SMK measures 3.187 . . . and I presume you're talking inches . . . that can't be the bullet alone, right?

So you must be talking about completed rounds . . . in some caliber . . . using the new lot of bullets vs the old lot.

If you're measuring completed rounds, how do you know the new lot of bullets themselves are longer? Why don't you measure and compare just the bullets? Odds are most of the issue is in the rest of the cartridge.

Further, if the cartridge measures 3.167/3.187 to the ogive, what measures 2.8 to the meplat?

Then if these are SMK bullets, why are you planning on calling Hornady?

Finally, if I were calling the bullet manufacturer, I'd want to be armed with the measurements of the old and new bullets themselves.

I'm probably missing something very basic here, but . . . oh well.

 

[rickp]

OK, I'm confused lol. When you say the new lot of 175gr SMK measures 3.187 . . . and I presume you're talking inches . . . that can't be the bullet alone, right?

So you must be talking about completed rounds . . . in some caliber . . . using the new lot of bullets vs the old lot.

If you're measuring completed rounds, how do you know the new lot of bullets themselves are longer? Why don't you measure and compare just the bullets? Odds are most of the issue is in the rest of the cartridge.

Further, if the cartridge measures 3.167/3.187 to the ogive, what measures 2.8 to the meplat?

Then if these are SMK bullets, why are you planning on calling Hornady?

Finally, if I were calling the bullet manufacturer, I'd want to be armed with the measurements of the old and new bullets themselves.

I'm probably missing something very basic here, but . . . oh well.

Towboxer,
You are right the whole round. It never occurred to me to measure JUST the bullet to be honest, so I did it. The old round measure at the ogive with the comparator and insert 1.611 the new one measured at 1.631. The difference is still the .020 just as the whole round.
I was calling Hornady to confirm the use of their comparator and insets, just to make sure I'm not having a MOMENT using that device and to eliminate is as a possible problem. I'm also going to call the Sierra to see what they would say but forgot to add that to my last post, my bad there again.
As far as the case goes they are the same, once fired from my gun Winchester Black Hills, with no primer. I also measured the rounds using winchester ammo from Corbon manufactured ammo, again with no primer.
I hope this isn't clear as mud.

Thanks

 

[High Binder]

Hey High Binder, thanks for the reply. Let me start out by saying I'm no Einstein with math but unless I'm having a REAL "You're THAT GUY" moment, I think I'm measuring this right.
I checked the weight and everything else I can think off.
I'm using a Hornady comparator and insert with my micrometer to measure the rounds to the ogive. The old lot are (and I'm down to my last 50 loaded rounds of them) are on average 3.167, the new lot measure 3.187 so that's about .20 thou off on average, not .30 thou my bad there, but still way off IMO.
I got the new lot about 8 months to a year after the old lot, so I'm not sure if that would play into the difference, but regardless the difference is still there. I checked the other 2 boxes of 100 rnds and they are consistent, so the issue it's just my old lot compared to these 300 new rnds I have.
All things being equal, how would this affect the load, if at all? BTW, OAL to the meplat is right at 2.8 + or - a thou just due to the typical uneven tips.

I'm planning on calling Hornady tomorrow just to see what they have to say. I also just ordered another lot of 500 175gr SMK so I'm curious to see what they measure at. Also, I haven't shot these new rounds yet.

Again thanks.

Rickp, I think we have have some confusion in the terminology and that may be where the problem lies. The numbers you mentioned don't sync with traditional hand-loading terminology. Right off it sounds like you're comparing loaded rounds being that your numbers are 3.167". When we think about comparing bullets to other bullets you should be measuring from the base of the bullet it's self to the ogive and on that bullet the numbers should be something less than an inch and the meplat being just over an inch (I don't shot that specific bullet so I don't know the exact #s). The ogive numbers should hold true from lot to lot with maybe a few thou variance here or there but the meplat numbers can vary quite a bit with no real performance difference.

So go back and just measure the bullet itself not the entire loaded cartridge and report back your findings. If you see a .020" difference at the ogive in the unloaded bullets then you have a defective lot (highly unlikely) and that difference can be very significant and even dangerous in your gun, especially if you gun is sensitive to jump and/or you're loading close/into to the lands (over pressure from being jammed too far into the lands). Also make sure you're using the Hornady 30 cal insert.

 

[High Binder]

Towboxer,
You are right the whole round. It never occurred to me to measure JUST the bullet to be honest, so I did it. The old round measure at the ogive with the comparator and insert 1.611 the new one measured at 1.631. The difference is still the .020 just as the whole round.
I was calling Hornady to confirm the use of their comparator and insets, just to make sure I'm not having a MOMENT using that device and to eliminate is as a possible problem. I'm also going to call the Sierra to see what they would say but forgot to add that to my last post, my bad there again.
As far as the case goes they are the same, once fired from my gun Winchester Black Hills, with no primer. I also measured the rounds using winchester ammo from Corbon manufactured ammo, again with no primer.
I hope this isn't clear as mud.

Thanks

Looks like we were typing at the same time. So being that you're seeing an actual .020 diff. I would just call sierra and talk to them. They'll prob have you send back the ones and replace them. There's also the risk that your orgianl lot was defective and the the new lot is correct but Sierra will have the numbers so talking to them is the next best bet.

 

[rickp]

Looks like we were typing at the same time. So being that you're seeing an actual .020 diff. I would just call sierra and talk to them. They'll prob have you send back the ones and replace them. There's also the risk that your orgianl lot was defective and the the new lot is correct but Sierra will have the numbers so talking to them is the next best bet.

I would agree with you, and being that I have 3 boxes of 100rnds and they all measure the higher number I'm inclined to think the last lot was off. I'll post what Sierra has to say after I speak to them.

Thanks
r.

 

[rickp]

Well just got off the phone with Sierra. And they are well aware of the issue. They tell me the problem stems from the copper roll lots they get before they stretch it out for the round's jacket. The rep said each copper roll lotbehaves differently when worked during the jacketing process causing the different length. He's seen copper lots jump between .015 thou up to .030 thou from one lot to the other.

He suggested measuring each round individually and adjusting OAL according to the length of that particular lot.

Hope this helps some. It did me.

 

[High Binder]

Well just got off the phone with Sierra. And they are well aware of the issue. They tell me the problem stems from the copper roll lots they get before they stretch it out for the round's jacket. The rep said he's seen copper lots jump between .015 thou up to .030 thou from one lot to the other.

He suggested measuring each round individually and adjusting OAL according to the length of that particular lot.

Hope this helps some. It did me.

Wow, well it's a good thing you caught it. Guess, I'll have to start really checking my lots now too. Shame on Sierra for their bad QC.

 

[bruddah]

Wow, well it's a good thing you caught it. Guess, I'll have to start really checking my lots now too. Shame on Sierra for their bad QC.

No kidding. I'm shocked they didn't take them back and replace them.

 

[Twoboxer]

Oh, my . . . just measure each bullet and adjust (on your progressive press)?

Mildly better if the whole lot is a uniformly out of spec lol. Geez, it's hard to even say those words together in the same sentence.

But do you trust that the whole box measures as does your selected sample?

I guess they figured most folks just load to an OAL and will never notice

 

[Rprecision]

Thats stupid, serously stupid. Another factor is what does this do to the BC of bullet in flight ?

I mainly set my m118 load to OAL because they get used in multiple rifles, but that still is irritating

 

[Bob L Swagger]

Take a gander at this... 3 different lots of the same brand / model 6.5mm 130 gr. bullet..

 

[Ren]

Is that one of those optical tricks pictures?

 

[Ultraman550]

Is this why Berger's are so expensive?

 

[Bob L Swagger]

Is that one of those optical tricks pictures?

Nope.. That's...





In the picture below you can see the problem with the ever shrinking 130gr VLD bullet from base to ogive.. The newest lot (shortest bullet) is unable to be loaded to the lands of my rifle since there is not enough bearing surface left in the case neck. According to Berger, this is ACCEPTABLE as long as they are all the same size in the same lot..

 

[Ultraman550]

outstanding.....

 

[Sniper Uncle]

Well just got off the phone with Sierra. And they are well aware of the issue. They tell me the problem stems from the copper roll lots they get before they stretch it out for the round's jacket. The rep said each copper roll lotbehaves differently when worked during the jacketing process causing the different length. He's seen copper lots jump between .015 thou up to .030 thou from one lot to the other.

He suggested measuring each round individually and adjusting OAL according to the length of that particular lot.

Hope this helps some. It did me.

Oh, my . . . just measure each bullet and adjust (on your progressive press)?

Mildly better if the whole lot is a uniformly out of spec lol. Geez, it's hard to even say those words together in the same sentence.

But do you trust that the whole box measures as does your selected sample?

I guess they figured most folks just load to an OAL and will never notice

If I read correctly, Sierra says the difference is lot to lot, not individual bullets in the lot…..

 

[.50 Cal Cow]

I've seen this issue before when I had a 500 round box of 250gr SMK. There was a lot of variance on the magnitude of what you are seeing but the variance at least had groups so I just had to sort through all 500 and adjust the seating die accordingly when I start using bullets from a different sort.

So if you have a 500 rnd box coming I'd check though them accordingly. Most other brands I've loaded I've noticed some variance but as HB has said it was only .00x"'s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bruddah]

Nope.. That's...




In the picture below you can see the problem with the ever shrinking 130gr VLD bullet from base to ogive.. The newest lot (shortest bullet) is unable to be loaded to the lands of my rifle since there is not enough bearing surface left in the case neck. According to Berger, this is ACCEPTABLE as long as they are all the same size in the same lot..

That's CRAZY!

 

[ashiha]

I knew people try to buy stuff in the same lot to avoid things like this, but I never knew it was quite this bad. I appreciate the heads up for sure. I would personally not consider this acceptable; especially not from Berger.

 

[sib1948]

Very interesting to me. Guess I should take a closer look at all my stock (brass and bullets), but I haven't noticed any significant variation in my groups. Are we really just splitting hairs here? Weight brass and weight and measure bullets. Might as well count and measure each grain of powder. I doubt if the manufacturers of match grade bullets do that, but I could be wrong!

 

[Bob L Swagger]

Very interesting to me. Guess I should take a closer look at all my stock (brass and bullets), but I haven't noticed any significant variation in my groups. Are we really just splitting hairs here? Weight brass and weight and measure bullets. Might as well count and measure each grain of powder. I doubt if the manufacturers of match grade bullets do that, but I could be wrong!

I don't think a .078" variation of bearing surface from lot "A" to lot "C" would be considered splitting hairs, especially when the investment of a full custom rifle was optimized & designed around the specs of that particular shaped / sized projectile. As you can see in the previously posted photos as the lots of bullets progressed they continued to get shorter. Personally, I have never paid much mind to lot numbers, but upon opening a few boxes of bullets while preparing to load ammunition, it was blatantly obvious & visible with the naked eye of how great the variation in size these projectiles were. I remember thinking, this can't be good...

At the time, I ordered 1000 of these from an online retailer and was advised at checkout there were only 700 in stock. Unbeknownst to me at the time of purchase, the batch of 700 bullets I received consisted of 3 different lots and I didn't think it would make that much of a difference since these are considered "Premium bullets" and are advertised as such. "Consistency is the key to precision and accuracy and no one makes bullets as consistent from lot to lot and within a given lot as Berger Bullets."

http://www.bergerbullets.com/information/

I did attempt to utilize the shorter bullets and was very unsuccessful. The rifle went from shooting .1's at 100 yards to just shy of 1 MOA & it could not even hold a 12" x 20" IPSC plate at 700 yards. I went through 3/4 of a box playing with seating depths in an effort to get them to shoot and came up with nothing. Luckily Lapua 136 Scenars provided outstanding results and seemed to be more consistent from lot to lot than the Bergers. I have 3000 pieces from 3 different lots of the 136 Scenars and the variation of bearing surface between lots is .002" to .003" - FANTASTIC!! That product rightfully deserves to wear the badge "Premium bullet."

 

[rickp]

If I read correctly, Sierra says the difference is lot to lot, not individual bullets in the lot…..

Hey guys,
yes the issue is from lot to lot, no need to measure every round.

I must say I wasn;t expecting the answer I got. He immediately knew what I was talking about.

R.

 

[Jeffvn]

I measure and sort every pill from all manufacturers that I use (in my case berger and sierra). My Bergers are no better than my Sierras as far as base to ogive length difference within each lot. I try to buy in groups of at least 500 bullets at a time to reduce the lot-to-lot variances.

I know its really basic, but if you are not adjusting the seating depth of the various pills, then you need to remember that a sorter bullet seated to the same point as a longer bullet changes the internal case pressure because it changes the amount of empty space inside the case. If you are talking more than 3 or 4 thou in base to ogive length differences, then you are potentially (but only potentially) affecting accuracy... just like you do when you do a seating depth test on a known load.

With my 338 300 Gr. Sierra SMKs, I sort everything because the base to ogive length difference within the same box of the same lot is pretty large (as in up to 0.010). I shoot them in lots of similar base to ogive lengths and they shoot great, it just takes time to do the sorting.

I start with the short ones and move to the longer ones as I move through the lots (it is offset slightly by seating depth to chase the throat as the throat moves out - especially with something like the 7WSM or my 7 DAkota).

Jeffvn

 

[rickp]

I don't think a .078" variation of bearing surface from lot "A" to lot "C" would be considered splitting hairs, especially when the investment of a full custom rifle was optimized & designed around the specs of that particular shaped / sized projectile. As you can see in the previously posted photos as the lots of bullets progressed they continued to get shorter. Personally, I have never paid much mind to lot numbers, but upon opening a few boxes of bullets while preparing to load ammunition, it was blatantly obvious & visible with the naked eye of how great the variation in size these projectiles were. I remember thinking, this can't be good...

At the time, I ordered 1000 of these from an online retailer and was advised at checkout there were only 700 in stock. Unbeknownst to me at the time of purchase, the batch of 700 bullets I received consisted of 3 different lots and I didn't think it would make that much of a difference since these are considered "Premium bullets" and are advertised as such. "Consistency is the key to precision and accuracy and no one makes bullets as consistent from lot to lot and within a given lot as Berger Bullets."

http://www.bergerbullets.com/information/

I did attempt to utilize the shorter bullets and was very unsuccessful. The rifle went from shooting .1's at 100 yards to just shy of 1 MOA & it could not even hold a 12" x 20" IPSC plate at 700 yards. I went through 3/4 of a box playing with seating depths in an effort to get them to shoot and came up with nothing. Luckily Lapua 136 Scenars provided outstanding results and seemed to be more consistent from lot to lot than the Bergers. I have 3000 pieces from 3 different lots of the 136 Scenars and the variation of bearing surface between lots is .002" to .003" - FANTASTIC!! That product rightfully deserves to wear the badge "Premium bullet."

WOW!!!! I would have never expected this thread to take this turn, just like I never expected for this to be such a large issue.

Those Berger Bullets in the picture are ridiculous!!!!!! I'm not reloading expert by far but those rounds scream "THIS IS F**CKED UP"!!!!!! especially from a "Premium" bullet.

 

[MikeInUtah]

I don't think a .078" variation of bearing surface from lot "A" to lot "C" would be considered splitting hairs, especially when the investment of a full custom rifle was optimized & designed around the specs of that particular shaped / sized projectile. As you can see in the previously posted photos as the lots of bullets progressed they continued to get shorter. Personally, I have never paid much mind to lot numbers, but upon opening a few boxes of bullets while preparing to load ammunition, it was blatantly obvious & visible with the naked eye of how great the variation in size these projectiles were. I remember thinking, this can't be good...

At the time, I ordered 1000 of these from an online retailer and was advised at checkout there were only 700 in stock. Unbeknownst to me at the time of purchase, the batch of 700 bullets I received consisted of 3 different lots and I didn't think it would make that much of a difference since these are considered "Premium bullets" and are advertised as such. "Consistency is the key to precision and accuracy and no one makes bullets as consistent from lot to lot and within a given lot as Berger Bullets."

http://www.bergerbullets.com/information/

I did attempt to utilize the shorter bullets and was very unsuccessful. The rifle went from shooting .1's at 100 yards to just shy of 1 MOA & it could not even hold a 12" x 20" IPSC plate at 700 yards. I went through 3/4 of a box playing with seating depths in an effort to get them to shoot and came up with nothing. Luckily Lapua 136 Scenars provided outstanding results and seemed to be more consistent from lot to lot than the Bergers. I have 3000 pieces from 3 different lots of the 136 Scenars and the variation of bearing surface between lots is .002" to .003" - FANTASTIC!! That product rightfully deserves to wear the badge "Premium bullet."

So is there a considerable deviation in bullet weight too?

 

[Bob L Swagger]

So is there a considerable deviation in bullet weight too?

Nope.. They all weigh 130 within + or - .4gr

 

[ashiha]

Maybe this is a result of shortages?

 

[rickp]

So is there a considerable deviation in bullet weight too?

My lots were with in .10 of a grain as well, so weight was good.

Ever since I stated shooting my re-loads for one reason or another all my rounds hit about 2" to 3" high starting at 500y and a little over 2" to 3" out to 700y. Three different ballistic data computers all gave me the same results +or - a .10 of a mil but when actually shot the rounds, they would hit high. BTW, MV was the same. When i would switched back to Corbon or Black Hills 175gr my data and impacts where good out to 900y. As a matter of fact I shot a match out at K&M Precision Training Facility using only my Whiz Wheel and my info was dead on + or - .10 if a mil the entire weekend of shooting out to almost 900y, so I really trusted the data it was giving me. I spoke to a few experienced re loaders and I even called Sierra and none of use could figure out why the difference between the data and the impacts. All pertinent data was considered and we still couldn't figure out why it was happening. Now I'm thinking it might have been the old lot of rounds I got. I guess I'll confirm that when I shoot this new lot.
IMO when it comes to shooting precision, sometimes the smallest variables can have a big impact on results. We really can't take anything for granted.

R.

 

[sib1948]

I don't think a .078" variation of bearing surface from lot "A" to lot "C" would be considered splitting hairs, especially when the investment of a full custom rifle was optimized & designed around the specs of that particular shaped / sized projectile. As you can see in the previously posted photos as the lots of bullets progressed they continued to get shorter. Personally, I have never paid much mind to lot numbers, but upon opening a few boxes of bullets while preparing to load ammunition, it was blatantly obvious & visible with the naked eye of how great the variation in size these projectiles were. I remember thinking, this can't be good...

At the time, I ordered 1000 of these from an online retailer and was advised at checkout there were only 700 in stock. Unbeknownst to me at the time of purchase, the batch of 700 bullets I received consisted of 3 different lots and I didn't think it would make that much of a difference since these are considered "Premium bullets" and are advertised as such. "Consistency is the key to precision and accuracy and no one makes bullets as consistent from lot to lot and within a given lot as Berger Bullets."

http://www.bergerbullets.com/information/

I did attempt to utilize the shorter bullets and was very unsuccessful. The rifle went from shooting .1's at 100 yards to just shy of 1 MOA & it could not even hold a 12" x 20" IPSC plate at 700 yards. I went through 3/4 of a box playing with seating depths in an effort to get them to shoot and came up with nothing. Luckily Lapua 136 Scenars provided outstanding results and seemed to be more consistent from lot to lot than the Bergers. I have 3000 pieces from 3 different lots of the 136 Scenars and the variation of bearing surface between lots is .002" to .003" - FANTASTIC!! That product rightfully deserves to wear the badge "Premium bullet."

I stand corrected. That's why I joined and love this Forum. I learn something new every day from those with more experience. I'm NOT being sarcastic, but sincerely appreciate all the information and opinions.